Capcom Crossover Chaos - GAME OVER~

[mental somnic]

VOTE: ggg

this is the best way to go

this should be done

[mental somnic]

no, actually no

wisdom and pie say skitty is town

but they are BAKA

so it is probably that they might have a skitty scum callnig them town

VOTE: skitty

[droog]

sonic are you trying to make this game harder to read
do you want to post so much everyone tunes out

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Here's your fucking response you goddamn prick: Nacho also missed the point I was making.

Let me try to break this down into very simple, bite size pieces for you to understand, so that neither you nor anybody else can fucking misrep me again.

You made initial points that

in a void, had no bearing on me being scum.

Each individual point was something that

isn't

alignment indicative, and if you were going to argue that those things were alignment indicative, you're either scum or absolutely horrible at mafia, because, as I've brought up, there are plenty of examples of those behaviors coming from town (since you're arguing that they come from scum).

Then you brought in meta, which I'll refer to as "contextualization" if it makes it any clearer. You tied the argument together with, "In the context of how I would expect BRO to play as town (definition of meta), this is off, thereby making him scum." Without that, as I've just said, the case... doesn't really exist. It's like trying to say "p5 is lurking, therefore he's scum," when town lurk to the level that he's lurking... fairly frequently. He does this shit every game.

I think his points about point-depth and how I see things differently than most other people and have trouble communicating what I'm seeing are fairly on point. I'm not sure if it's a depth or style thing, but the fact that I can see confirmed scum (like, literally PR-confirmed scum) while the rest of the town derps around wondering whether it's confirmed scum or not is 10/10 infuriating.

lol

I literally answered all of these points the last time we had this conversation. but I get you're scum spouting bullshit and probably won't lynch you today, so I don't particularly feel like continuing this further

it's funny you're specifically referring to me here when TWOH agrees with me that everything I pointed out _was_ alignment indicative. are they "absolutely horrible at mafia" or scum too?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@Nacho: ^ how's that for a discredit, btw?

[Bulbazak]

What's holding off the Skitty wagon right now?

Confusion mostly.

So get on bulba: scummy, hard to read, different people have expressed different opinions on him with some of them extreme and therefore decent information lynch.

You know what, I'm getting sick and tired of this crap, so this is your one and only reach out. Nacho, Wisdom, get the crap off of me, listen to Sonic, and start learning to read between the freaking lines. This wagon is crap, and you should feel bad. Is it not making either of you paranoid that it's building so fast where every other wagon has stalled? Get your heads on straight, realize that this wagon is scum driven, and get off! If I end up dying in the first day phase of this game, I will make sure neither of you ever live this down and will force you to sheep me for the rest of eternity. Do I make myself clear?

Bulba's probably town, can this end now, please and thank you.

Finally, somebody with some brains that can actually figure things out. Tammy, I'll love you forever.

Mental, can we lynch BRO please? It will lead to good things.

We're not lynching Bro. You need to get off him and move onto someone else. {Skitty, GGG, Esp, Droog} would be best.

@xay/mtd nacho's case was here btw

My response is here.

Where the fuck did this broseidon wagon come from?

It's being driven by Esp-scum.

it's funny, cos he didn't put AA9 as scum or mention her at all in his most recent reads list (the one I called him out on)

What reads list?

1. why is it alignment indicative that these specific wagons are stalling? none of the wagons in this game save the Skitty one from before have got past like 5 votes. you're also townreading TD, whose wagon stalled in a similar way.

From a game flow perspective, the Skitty wagon hit a wall and then started reversing. TD was under a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer, but that was disbanded in a fairly organic manner (mostly to do with the Sonic/TWOH fight and the subsequent move back to Skitty followed quickly by the counter wagon on me.). Compare that with my wagon, which is building quickly. The typical mode of thought is that wagons that are hard to build tend to be on scum and that fast moving wagons tend to be on town. While I don't always agree with that, I have started to see the validity, and it does freak me out if a wagon starts building really fast or if one fails to gain momentum despite many people being suspicious of that player. It's not the strongest bits of evidence, but combined with other info, I think they're more than adequate.

I also want to fact check that bit about GGG because afaik you were pushing AA9 over him, and then sometime later said they weren't scum together and thus that GGG was more likely. this (iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) came *after* a lot of people expressed suspicion of GGG and when it looked like you sure as hell believed AA9 was scum.

I wouldn't know, as I was in a different part of the game at that point. It does concern me that you keep glossing over that fact.

3. what the hell happened to your AA9 push from before? I would expect you would at least mention her in your reads list, given you still seem to be pushing her as suspicious independently of GGG. I think it looks like you're scared to actually follow through on the AA9 push.

After my concern with GGG buddying up to her, I took a step back when reading her posts. I really liked her back and forth with Sonic, as well as her yelling at everyone voting TWOH. Both were extremely town, so she's moved up to a townread.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

haven't fully read the post yet, but

I wouldn't know, as I was in a different part of the game at that point. It does concern me that you keep glossing over that fact.

this doesn't mean anything to me. it is entirely possible you skimmed through the thread or otherwise got a good idea of the major events that happened before catching up. I don't see how this applies in this scenario, either - afaict, your course of action would have been determined entirely by things that happened before that point, so I don't see what the problem here is

anyway, the problem with MS' and Bulba's hard defense of each other is that the one reason I could think of for MS doing this doesn't actually mean anything, and I'm not sure if he realizes this.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

What reads list?

the one from the end of 2435 that I initially started asking you about

From a game flow perspective, the Skitty wagon hit a wall and then started reversing.

if you're town, I really wish you would give up on this. you're on the wrong track here and you're not reading in between the lines enough. it's pretty embarrassing that you're telling everyone to read in between the lines re: you, but haven't done so yourself.

TD was under a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer, but that was disbanded in a fairly organic manner (mostly to do with the Sonic/TWOH fight and the subsequent move back to Skitty followed quickly by the counter wagon on me.). Compare that with my wagon, which is building quickly. The typical mode of thought is that wagons that are hard to build tend to be on scum and that fast moving wagons tend to be on town. While I don't always agree with that, I have started to see the validity, and it does freak me out if a wagon starts building really fast or if one fails to gain momentum despite many people being suspicious of that player. It's not the strongest bits of evidence, but combined with other info, I think they're more than adequate.

so TD was under a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer.

that's exactly what I'm saying. if what you said is accurate (and I haven't checked this, I just saw there was a wagon on TD that didn't get anywhere), the TD wagon stalled for *longer* than the other wagons, and was *harder* to build than the wagon on you which built quickly. aside from it disbanding in an organic way (I'd like you to elaborate on this, but at the same time I don't think I would understand your reasoning here since I would never think of it as a town tell) I don't see how you're getting a town read out of this.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

It's being driven by Esp-scum.

this is also incredibly inconsistent. you just said earlier that:

Esp is scum for the bloc voting. He's not actually developing his own scumreads, but is instead hiding behind the reads of others. He did the same in the recent Lucid Dreamers marathon game by sheeping Mew (Lynch the heretic who betrayed the Cult of Mew!).

Esp was not developing his own reads but hiding behind the reads of others, and I'm pretty sure the BRO read was one of the reads you were referring to here.

[DeathNote]

Merry Christmas to those who care. Sorry I have been absent past few days, lots of family stuff to do.

Will be back around in a couple days.

[Bulbazak]

What reads list?

the one from the end of 2435 that I initially started asking you about

That's not a reads list. That's a couple of scum reads with reasons why, essentially still part of my catch up reaction process.

From a game flow perspective, the Skitty wagon hit a wall and then started reversing.

if you're town, I really wish you would give up on this. you're on the wrong track here and you're not reading in between the lines enough. it's pretty embarrassing that you're telling everyone to read in between the lines re: you, but haven't done so yourself.

I'm seeing a lot more scum motivation behind what NS is doing, and while I don't know what you're talking about, I do know that I don't trust you. Until I see something that even looks remotely town, my vote is staying.

It's being driven by Esp-scum.

this is also incredibly inconsistent. you just said earlier that:

Esp is scum for the bloc voting. He's not actually developing his own scumreads, but is instead hiding behind the reads of others. He did the same in the recent Lucid Dreamers marathon game by sheeping Mew (Lynch the heretic who betrayed the Cult of Mew!).

Esp was not developing his own reads but hiding behind the reads of others, and I'm pretty sure the BRO read was one of the reads you were referring to here.

Esp votes and pushes Bro. The wagon starts to pick up. While you may have started the Bro wagon, Esp is the driving force behind it, and that point is not inconsistent with what I said in the above post, since he's hiding behind your reasoning while doing so.

[BROseidon]

1. a huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup spec, weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, or anything else;
2. consistent attempts to appeal to other players;
3. the way he's handling the shos/Skitty push;
4. a large amount of general specious argumentation;
5. the fact he's demonstrated a tendency to play differently than this as town.

Here's the tl;dr of your argument.

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5. There are players who focus on setup spec and don't have the deepest scum hunting early (god knows I basically can only use associative tells on almost all players). There are players who focus more on working with others than driving their own agenda (you sure as hell would never call NS scum for appealing to Nacho/mollie/etc). There are players who make pedantic arguments (lol Wisdom). Not sure if pedantic is the right word, but specious sure as fuck isn't (and your spamming of it reminds me again of mastin-scum "say this thing over and over again until people believe it").

So your arguments about why I'm scum are all ultimately contingent on #5. That makes it a meta case. It also makes it a meta case that doesn't make sense when the points you bring up are all points that periodically occur in my town game based on the gamestate.

A huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup speculation has scum motivation because it allows scum to post without giving away alignment-relevant information. Scumhunting is something that scum are less likely to do well as opposed to town because a town's motivation to post is to catch and kill scum, and scumhunting is the primary method of moving towards this purpose. This is a general tell. This tell does not need meta in order to make it valid.

Consistent attempts to appeal to other players is scummy because it gains you friends, and friends are less likely to lynch you. This has more scum motivation than town motivation again because scum's primary motivation is to survive while town's primary motivation is to hunt and kill scum. Still doesn't need meta to make it valid.

Shallow arguments show scum motivation because scum are, in general, expected to produce something. The shallower an argument is, the easier it is to fake while the deeper an argument is, the harder it is to fake. Because a town's every moment should be guided by finding and killing scum, their strongest moments should be in their arguments and in their searching as opposed to everything else: weak searching implies primary motivation being centered around something else.

All of those things can stand on their own. Adding meta to these points is important since they are all general scum trends and tailoring them specifically to a player can make these things stronger or weaker: that doesn't mean that making a case based on these points is meta and it sure as hell doesn't mean they need meta to stand.

And there's a reason I don't sheep Nacho on reads. His theory and analytics are...

None of this parses out scum from early game or incompetent townie.

Also not all townies play only to find scum. Plenty of town play to get townread and then sheep their townreads (ns is still a player that exists). I made the mistake of playing only to find scum without regard to how I was read, and it led to me getting mislynched pretty much every game.

[BROseidon]

Esp votes and pushes Bro. The wagon starts to pick up. While you may have started the Bro wagon, Esp is the driving force behind it, and that point is not inconsistent with what I said in the above post, since he's hiding behind your reasoning while doing so.

An important thing to note here is that if Esp is cult and not group scum it basically guarantees that one of {ooba, piegami} are group scum.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Esp votes and pushes Bro. The wagon starts to pick up. While you may have started the Bro wagon, Esp is the driving force behind it, and that point is not inconsistent with what I said in the above post, since he's hiding behind your reasoning while doing so.

......................

the only reason Esp joined the BRO wagon was BECAUSE of my push on him.

without my push, Esp's push WOULDN'T HAVE EXISTED. I'm the one who initially picked up on the BRO scumread and made most of the noise about it. ESP WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO PICKED UP ON IT.

furthermore, Esp was the

3rd vote on the BRO wagon. THE BRO WAGON ONLY REACHED 4 VOTES TOTAL.

ESP WAS IN NO WAY THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THE WAGON. MOREOVER, OOBA OUTRIGHT SAID HE WAS SHEEPING

ME

, AND MS VOTED HIM JUST SO HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO VOTE YOU.

you can not claim that Esp (or anyone besides me, really) was driving that wagon. this is a blatant lie.

[BROseidon]

Dude you're not getting what Bulba is saying.

Like at all.

[Bulbazak]

Esp voted Bro. He used your reasoning and pushed hard. Attention turned hard and fast onto Bro. That's not a coincidence.

[Bulbazak]

Bro, tell me that I'm not the only one that can read the current and ripples of the game state.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

yes I am

Bulba claims Esp is the driving force behind the wagon. if he is, he was able to get like 1 vote and that was it. I'm the one who created the wagon, built it up to that point, made basically _all_ the noise about the scum read on you, and convinced Esp in the first place.

I could 100% see it if he was saying that Esp was _a_ driving force behind the wagon, or that he was just scum on the wagon. but he explicitly said Esp was _the_driving force behind the wagon, which is incorrect.

it's funny you say I'm "not getting" what Bulba is saying when, being scum, it's more likely I'm just BS'ing here. amirite?

p-edit: @BRO

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Esp voted Bro. He used your reasoning and pushed hard. Attention turned hard and fast onto Bro. That's not a coincidence.

this is false. I literally just told you why Esp pushing BRO hard had nothing to do with why there was more attention placed onto him. half the people who want to vote BRO do so just because they want the day to end or, in MS's case, as a counterwagon to you.

[BROseidon]

Bro, tell me that I'm not the only one that can read the current and ripples of the game state.

I'm also seeing it, which means probably nobody else is because fuck if anyone else ever sees what I see.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

and if you actually think Esp was pushing BRO harder than me, fucking lol

p-edit: @Bulba

[BROseidon]

yes I am

Bulba claims Esp is the driving force behind the wagon. if he is, he was able to get like 1 vote and that was it. I'm the one who created the wagon, built it up to that point, made basically _all_ the noise about the scum read on you, and convinced Esp in the first place.

I could 100% see it if he was saying that Esp was _a_ driving force behind the wagon, or that he was just scum on the wagon. but he explicitly said Esp was _the_driving force behind the wagon, which is incorrect.

it's funny you say I'm "not getting" what Bulba is saying when, being scum, it's more likely I'm just BS'ing here. amirite?

p-edit: @BRO

Okay.

So why did the wagon not start moving until

Esp pushed it

. It stalled on your one vote for a while, but Esp magically made the wagon a viable wagon for the day.

(In b4 "BUT IT'S MY WAGON")

[BROseidon]

Esp voted Bro. He used your reasoning and pushed hard. Attention turned hard and fast onto Bro. That's not a coincidence.

this is false. I literally just told you why Esp pushing BRO hard had nothing to do with why there was more attention placed onto him. half the people who want to vote BRO do so just because they want the day to end or, in MS's case, as a counterwagon to you.

bullshit.

[Bulbazak]

Esp took a big freaking spotlight and shone it on Bro. You want to think the attention was because of you. I get that. But the fact of the matter was that it was not. Esp started getting attention. Esp jumped on Bro using your reasoning and posted like mad about it. All of a sudden, we're getting a lot of "That's a good Bro case.". If you can't see that, then I don't know what to say to you.

[mental somnic]

pieguy no baka


i stop believing in you when you violate the very maxim that i have been preaching all game