Mini 1039 Lost: Season One (Over)

[jenniwren]

@Adem: I don't know that we should necessarily trust anyone who makes a claim about anyone else, but we're very early in the game, and I have no reason to keep a vote on someone if there is a good chance it's a bad vote. More discussion is needed; there isn't any reason to push the lynch until we've had time to reexamine the situation.

Also, if this is the case:

Vigging Vezok would definitely be the ideal resolution to our current problem. I'm not trying to out anyone.

Then why do you still have a vote on him? Why did you make the case on him to begin with? This comment seems to be meant to appease MoI and maybe others.

I think your case on Vezo is weak, and the claim that it is a pressure vote is as well. Vezo doesn't really need more pressure; I am pretty sure he knows his options are limited. It seems like it is allowing you get away with making a case on someone and using your vote on someone without actually doing any real scumhunting of your own. Also, it's not going to make you "look bad" if you push the wrong wagon today, so it seems to also be something to keep you out of the limelight as far as that goes.

Do you have any other suspects, or is Vezo it? Can you make a case on anyone else? You disagree that anyone should accept Dram's statement about BC, but you haven't voted for BC, so why are you concerned if his wagon stops? Your only voiced suspicions of BC were his call for nameclaiming (which pretty much everyone has disagreed with) and his "WIFOM" about how he would have acted were he scum--but the argument you reference also includes a vote for you . Also, BC was the main suspect at the time; did you have any other suspicions of him other than the nameclaiming comment (which was shot down by many people) or the WIFOM? Is there any other reason at all you might have been suspicious of him?

[BloodCovenent]

If I were more stubborn for an easy mislynch, then I NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN OFF OF THE FUCKING WAGON!

And yet you only got off the wagon after Dekes called you out as voting in a scummy manner. And it wasn't like a sudden burst of votes followed yours. You voted Dekes to L-2. Dekes calls you on it. Chesskid unvotes Dekes and then you do stating that you are slowing down the wagon. Too late, Chesskid had already accomplished that. You don’t get Town cred for ‘getting off the bad wagon’ when you did it in response to being accused of being opportunistic.

So, it's not suspicious at all that Chesskid got off the wagon either? Even though I was called out?

Shut the Fuck up! You say that now because everything is unraveled already. Yea, so what you were the first person to suggest him being a lyncher. Great, more power to you. But because i didn't think of that, it makes me scum? Just because you "saw" the plan, doesn't make it obvious to everyone else from the very beginning.

I said it in my very first content post. It makes you likely scum because you jumped on the Dekes bandwagon and have tried to explain it away as ‘trusting the PR’. You can say you just missed it (the obv-nature of Vezo being a lyncher) but I’m not required to exactly believe that. Scum have motivation to lie when they are caught, don’t they? And note I have yet to say you are 100% scum. I say there is 1 scum in you, Hacker or Longing. Your responses are what I'm going to use to narrow down the scum.

Ok... you have to stop acting like you're gods little gift to the world just because you called him out for being a lyncher first. I'm sorry if i have played several games with cop like power roles during the day. For christs sake read gears of war mafia. Shit... even the mod can tell you have i reacted to that.


Gah. work sucks.

Feels like jenni is waffling a little bit in her last post. but that was just a fast read through.

Unvote:
Vote: Jenni

[jasonT1981]

@jason

– Why did you FOS FSHydra and then not vote him when you two posts later realize you still had a RVS vote? Unvoting while not committing to your Top suspect troubles me.

Good question... I FOSed him and said he needs to show me where a lyncher has had a lynch target of an anti town role because I was suspicious of someone who would support a lyncher getting his game win condition as I had never seen a lyncher with an anti-town target ... he did and therefor I did not turn the FOS into a vote.

Even if by some chance he is a lyncher, he has openly expressed multiple times his intent to get in our way. If he is a lyncher, and given his intent on playing anti-town if he doesn't get his way, the scum will most likely keep him alive. In the end it will be up to us to deal with him anyway. Until I find a scummier person, I say now rather than later.

Vote: Vezok

not really a fan of lynching lynchers, its a waste of a opertunity to get scum. After scum gets taken out, then deal with 3rd party roles. Chesskid covers this pretty well in the next post I see. Also adding alot of WIFOM and night kill speculation that I really do not like.

FOS: Ademisk

Assuming there is a vig and that he decides to 'waste' his shot on Vezok. You seem sure there is a vig. Why is that?

hmmm, if a Vig would not waste a bullet on a lyncher.. why would town waste a lynch on said role? you are right though, CK does seem slightly sure of a lyncher. I really don't like this... its alright for town to waste time lynching a lyncher which is counter productive to the win condition but a waste of a kill for a vig?

Unless his win-con ends the game and we choose to lynch Dekes, there's no harm to the town in letting him live. That means I'd rather a vig target someone who really could hurt the town like a mafia or SK.

The way I see it, he's not mafia, which means that he counts against their win condition. That gives the scum an incentive to kill him, so I'd rather let them do it.

Again, not a fan of night kill speculation.... and WIFOM

FOS: HH

I am not sure if it ends the game... from what I recall the game goes on minus the lyncher who wins.... as he has achieved his win condition, town and scum can still play on to try and achieve their win conditions.

Let's lynch scum. bc is not scum.
Choose anoyther target.

how can you be sure?

Unvote
Vote: Jenni

nothing game related has come out of you, really.

PoE tells me Jenni, Jason and Ademisk,

PoE on day 1.. really? what leads you to this conclusion, and how has everyone else been eliminated from being potential scum?

Guys, we are not lynching BC.
He is a VERY bad lynch.

Look somewhere else.

care to explain why though? this is the 2nd time you have made declerations and not given any real reasoning to them.

I'm not sure if this is a Vezok's post 254 parody or if you really mean this, but why is he a bad lynch?

How about "I have inside information that doesn't include me being a fake-rolecop/lyncher that makes me know he's a bad lynch for the town?"

Im skeptical about this softclaim... noted for later, because if BC does at some point flip scum.... I will remember this.

Dont like this post here, will link but you focus the entire post on others, without mentioning HH yet then vote him with no real reasons behind it. at least not in this post.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2491543

OK, actually...I am wrong I looked at MoI in ISO and seen he made a few posts before hand on HH making an interesting case on him.


Dram probably saved himself from a vote with his softclaim regarding BC's role, and that also for now takes a BC lynch out of the question...

I am going to look at HH and Ademisk tomorrow hopefully in ISO and see if I can see anything I don't like in their posts, sorry this is a brief catch up on a quick read from where I last posted as it is now after midnight here. but right now Ademisk and HH seem quite scummy to me.

Again, sorry for not being around for the past few days. I have been trying to get things sorted with a work placement in photography, and it is not an easy thign to find at the minute. I'm hoping the worst part is behind me, I applied to a few places after lots of research so I hopefully have a bit more time now for Mafia again.

[Ademisk]

@jenn:
-I think you are trying too hard. I already told you, I think he comes off more scummy than lyncher. If I thought he was a lyncher, I wouldn't have voted him, or I would have withdrawn it. There's not much more I can explain to you here. Until he can post more, there is nothing that can help me change my mind about his guilt.

- My vig comment was made to show whoever is interested that I do acknowledge the possible existence of a vig, and that it would indeed be more convenient to have him die like that at night that use up our day kill. But just because it would be ideal, that does not mean it is guaranteed to happen.

- I didn't vote BC because my vote was on Vezok, but BC was also suspicious. Here's a quote in case you missed it:

My other suspicion is on BC. Frankly, I have more suspicion on him than on Vezok by his posts compared to Vezoks, but Vezoks actions seem more significant to me.

Give me two votes and I would have voted them both. However, the reason I am concerned for people suddenly hopping off the wagon is completely unrelated to BC, or his wagon. The fact that we've seen something similar on this exact day should give you pause, but apparently I am the only one that noticed the similarities.

And since you asked for some more reasons, here are a few more quotes that made me wonder:

The person who brought up the idea of someone being a lyncher is (imo) just as scummy as someone who brings up the idea of a jester. It's a scum tactic to distract the town from a possible scum lynch.

Brought up after Vezok confirmed himself a lyncher. Completely useless, and is ironically used as a distraction by him.

Unvote:
Vote: ChessKid

-Poisoning the Well.
-Claims to give me time to respond before he votes. but doesn't.
-Notes that his vote is only a pressure vote on me.
-states that the scum have a QT
-Major dish of Oh My God You SUCK!

Feels like a bit OMGUS since most of the reasons are poor. 'Poisoning the Well' was false because the transcription of events chesskid made was pretty accurate. Although its worth noting that chesskd didn't account for HH jumping on the wagon even though he directly addresses HH in his post. The QT thing is standard so thats also a bad reason. Pressure votes aren't inherently bad.


@jasonT1981:

hmmm, if a Vig would not waste a bullet on a lyncher.. why would town waste a lynch on said role? you are right though, CK does seem slightly sure of a lyncher. I really don't like this... its alright for town to waste time lynching a lyncher which is counter productive to the win condition but a waste of a kill for a vig?

You got a good point. I guess I got caught up in the arguement with chesskid too much to notice. I'll still say that unless one of us who expressed interest in having Vezok vigged is themselves the vig, we can't really guarantee that the vig will go for Vezok instead of who they believe is scum.

Before anyone starts asking, now that BC is temporarily on the 'no lynch' list, dram takes the second spot with his vague BC defense.


Also, what does PoE and waffling mean?

[jasonT1981]

PoE - Process of elimination I believe it means

[vezokpiraka]

I'm here. Will post later.

[jenniwren]

Waffling? Really? In recent posts, I have answered MoI's questions about how I felt about three specific people, given my views on my strongest reads, and voted. You were my strongest scum read. After you received your reprieve, I moved on to my second strongest read, Adem. It was originally TheLonging, but he has addressed one of my concerns and promises a follow-up post; I'm waiting for that, but he's still not my strongest scum-read. My last post is me questioning Adem about his play. I think I've been pretty specific; can you explain what you mean by waffling?

[Faraseradayaphim]

K @ dram's softclaim. That means we're lynching none of the following today: Vezok, Dekes, Chesskid, dram, blood as they're all obvtown/stuff/lyncher.

That leaves 7, taking away us, that leaves 6. Magna's pretty town from the remaining bunch, comfortably more than the rest, so I don't want him dead today.

From the reamining 5, it'd really not surprise me if all the scum were in that bunch. Gonna get in contact with sera but yeah, cool. Going to bed now.

[jasonT1981]

OK, as promised I am looking at HH in ISO, sorry promised it yesterday but got caught up in other things.

Post 1

votes Fara

Post 2

declares Fara scum however in

post 3

unvotes his declared scum and votes Dekes after the 'claim' of day cop.

Post 6

says he is unhappy with Vez not posting full flavor but would still be happy lynching dekes despite not being happy with the claim?? what?

post 9

I notice he has also said about a vig wasting a bullet on the lyncher.... I didnt notice this my first time

post 11

with more vig speculation

post 13

questions Dram about the BC wagon..

Conclusion

not entirely happy with his post 3 where he will support a lynch despite not being happy with the claim. Also, missed first time around the post about wasting bullet from vig... Ademisk also mentions this... link?

And now, as promised also Ademisk in ISO

Does not really do anything until

post 4

questions Fara on Policy lynch on Vez

Post 5

follows up questioning with a FOS

post 6

continues to question Fara but still does not put down a vote
After post 6 however he seems to trail off Fara

Post 10

votes A outted non scum role IE Lyncher....yet starts to focus on BC

post 11-14

Vig specualtion

post 15

admits that it looks like he is PR hunting to HH...Interesting exchange I feel and contiunues to push Vez lynch

Post 16

is more PR hunting by tryign to get info from Dram

Post 17

more vig talk

Conclusion

... a link between he and HH for sure. Especially both not really wanting a vig to 'waste' bullets on a non scum role but seem happyish to waste a town lynch on this person. Adamisk switches from Fara very quickly despite pushing him a lot early on.... that I don't like and switches focus to BC but keeps his vote on a lyncher instead of who he thinks scum in BC. Add that to the PR hunting instead of scum hunting I am not happy with his play.

vote:Ademisk

[xRECKONERx]

BloodCovenent (1): Faraseradayaphim
Faraseradayaphim (1): vezokpiraka
chesskid3 (1): BloodCovenent
vezokpiraka (1): Ademisk
HackerHuck (1): MagnaofIllusion
Ademisk (2): jenniwren, jasonT1981

Not voting (5): HackerHuck, TheLonging, Dekes, chesskid3, dramonic

12 alive, 7 to lynch. Prodding MoI, TheLonging, Dekes, and HackerHuck.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod accepted -

Going to be furminating the dogs and making dinner here soon.

My general Monday catch-up post will occur this evening.

[xRECKONERx]

TheLonging has requested replacement.

EDIT: AGar replaces TheLonging.

[Dekes]

Picked up my prod. Though I announced my V/LA until...pretty much now in the thread.

Just got back from my V/LA. Dead tired. I will have a catch-up post up by no later than 2 p.m. GMT +1 (which is 14 hours from now).

[AGar]

Hi all. Reading up now.

[AGar]

FUUUU I'm being spoiled nuuuu (I'm only 3/4 of the way through S2).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcom AGar – I look forward to your thoughts on the Day so far.

First things first - Let's get things in gear people - more HackerHuck votes!!!

I never said THAT

What sort of inside information would you possible have that makes him a bad lynch if he isn’t Town? This needes to be answered pronto because he’s not stopped acting scumtastic.

I feel you guys are a bit too eager to jump off the BC wagon. I hope I'm not missing anything, but there's nothing but dramonic's cryptic quote to base your conclusion that he's a VI. It seems the standard here is that if someone claims something, people tend to trust them so that part is ok, but given Vezok's play I'm a bit worried that you aren't more careful about trusting people, especially when their reason is much weaker.

Do you understand the nature of dramonic’s claim that ‘clears’ BC? He’s claiming role-based (inside) information that tells him BC isn’t a good lynch. He’s irrevocably linked his fate to BC’s. Do I trust him? Not as far as I can throw him. Regardless he’s offered himself up as collateral for BC. There are plenty of other scummy candidates (look, there’s Hacker Huck as we speak) to push the remainder of this day. BC certainly can be tested in other methods and both of them dealt with accordingly as is necessary.

I went for Vezok because I think he is more likely to be scum than lyncher.

If you believe this what scum motivation does he have for his play? He pretty much outed himself as scummy Day 1. What upside does he have to making himself such a target? What benefit would the scum gain that outweighs outing a member Day 1?

So, it's not suspicious at all that Chesskid got off the wagon either? Even though I was called out?

Is this your serious response - Chesskid is also doing it so why don’t you go after him? Are stipulating that your play was scummy and suggesting Chesskid is also worth investigation?

Ok... you have to stop acting like you're gods little gift to the world just because you called him out for being a lyncher first. I'm sorry if i have played several games with cop like power roles during the day. For christs sake read gears of war mafia. Shit... even the mod can tell you have i reacted to that.

How does your behaviour in Gears of War indicate your behavior here is not scummy?

1. It’s an single game which hardly qualifies as meta worth relying on.
2. It’s a WIFOM statement as you can easily lean on that game when scum here.

The only reason my vote is off you is Dram’s claim. Don’t think for an instant I don’t consider you very scummy.

K @ dram's softclaim. That means we're lynching none of the following today: Vezok, Dekes, Chesskid, dram, blood as they're all obvtown/stuff/lyncher.

That leaves 7, taking away us, that leaves 6. Magna's pretty town from the remaining bunch, comfortably more than the rest, so I don't want him dead today.

From the reamining 5, it'd really not surprise me if all the scum were in that bunch. Gonna get in contact with sera but yeah, cool. Going to bed now.

Ok I need some clarification –

Is Chesskid on the first list as obvtown? Because I don’t remember anything else that puts him in the 'other' category.

Why is your vote still on Vezo when he’s on your no-lynch list?

I look forward to who of the remaining 5 you think is scummy.

[AGar]

Let's see, by page 9 people are still discussing Vezok/dekes. Why don't we just ignore Vezok completely (considering he said he'll basically be detrimental to the town unless we let him lynch Dekes) and focus on scumhunting instead? The Dekes reaction analysis has frightened me. I know it's not the right townie mindset to allow for self-preservation, but when a known VI comes in and claims "Day namecop" and gives a false positive on you, and people start BLINDLY believing him, wouldn't you be a bit concerned? Just a BIT?

Chesskid assumes that the mafia have a QT - Kind of a scummy post

You're... you're kidding, right?

HH, get off the effing Vezok subject. Chesskid too. FFS, it's not worth discussion.

Need to iso some people before a vote, but HH's insistence on discussing vezok as well as his general un-usefulness that I've perceived thus far are sending me leaning towards a HH vote.

[Faraseradayaphim]

Yes, Chesskid's incredibly obvious town. Me and Sera both agree very strongly on that.

My vote's not on vezo, it's actually on BC atm, but that'll change obviously as I tend to think BC's town here depending on dram's info.

From the 5 I think Jenni, Hacker and Ademisk are the scummiest. TL is someone I find hard to read, Agar's not so bad though so that should help. Jason's been on the fringes for the most part, let me iso him but I think Jenni/Hacker/Ade is the lynch for the day.

Unvote

[vezokpiraka]

Tell me who should I vote and I will use my vote the way you like.

unvote

[HackerHuck]

The weekend hit me harder than I expected. I'll put together some more thoughts on Monday.

I'm going to give a pass to Vezok, Dekes, Dram, BC, and Chesskid today.

That leaves me to look at Magna, Seraday, AGar, Ademisk, Jason, and Jenni. I don't really get all of the Magna love, but he hasn't moved too far up my scum list yet. I'm still trying to read Seraday. I'm not too keen on the hydra thing, because it makes reads much harder. I'll focus on those last four, only because I'd be wasting my breath talking about the others.

[Dekes]

My apologies. I was feeling lazy after work, hence the delay.

Well,
a lot of questions that arose during my read through were answered later on:

Ademisks continued pursuit of vezo's lynch: Even if he's not a confirmed lyncher (but I don't see how he couldn't be yet still managed to frame Claire as Ethan before I name claimed without any inside info), he's at least 99% confirmed not town and can be dealt with later. Not looking for (another) scum now is - as others mentioned before - only motivated by scum intent.
His other suspect, BC, has been cleared by dram for now. Ademisk said his claim is similar to and therefore equally questionable as vezo's, which is not true. BC has been cleared by another person and this is much more believable because few scum would link themselves with another person by a claim to save their buddy. If dram is lying then it can be found out and can be dealt with later.

Bottom line: Not really making an effort in scumhunting but going for targets that are very likely not going to be lynched anyways.

Dram's claim: Like many said, now he's painted a bullseye on himself as well as BC. I don't think dram would fake softclaim here, especially with how scummy BC has been playing so far. This should not be investigated further without any flip/NK info.

I don't get the suspicions for jenni though. She was passive at the beginning, but has picked up the pace (granted, after she has been prodded by others) and her posts didn't seem that useless at all. Strong stances, questioned her suspects, no vague infos. And no, I don't think I'm confusing long posts = town posts here, just because I tend to make fewer, but longer posts myself. Not on my scum list.

I'm awaiting AGar's and HH's posts including their suspects, since both (in AGar's case TheLonging) have been on my suspect list for a while now.

For now I will

Vote: HackerHuck

for reasons brought up earlier by others and myself.

[AGar]

Alright.

Let's look at HackerHuck, everyone.

After an uneventful start, he decides this game would be a great game for blindly following a VI player with a conflicting claim. He follows up expressing distaste for both players not full-claiming, but continues to press on Dekes. He later states he'd be willing to go 1:1 on town for scum, although vezok has claimed lyncher (3rd party). Why the continuing justification for his past actions? Since then he has continuously discussed vezok and the lyncher, rather than scumhunting. His most recent post states his D1 scumhunting will be PoE. PoE on D1 doesn't work.

VOTE: HackerHuck

[Ademisk]

@jason: Keeping my vote on someone and defending my position != pushing for a lynch. I've been pretty passive about it and only brought it up when questioned. I feel you too are trying a bit hard to make a case: I did not think BC deserved a vote more than Vezok, and I explained why. PR hunting...I could see how you'd think that, but I don't think asking for clarification for some claims and assumptions is necessarily scummy, because look, chesskid makes an assumption about drams claim and dram says he's assuming too much. Point is, we need more information on that particular case before conclusions can be made, and I'd like you to try and say otherwise. Mistakes already have been made due to lack of it, but despite what we ask of him its his choice to divulge it if and when he wants.

@MoI: I think he made a bad move and got himself in trouble. When he saw an opportunity to lessen his punishment, he took it.

@HH: I wouldn't mind hearing what you have on MoI or FSHydra. If anything, FSHydra might be easier to figure out if he's scum since both people would have to keep the story straight. I'll do an ISO on him later, but I invite you to do one too.


That said, I think I will

unvote

Vezok for now. I've made a case on him as best I could, but nobody else sees it that way. Since more people than there are mafia showed their dislike for it, I'd be wasting my time and needlessly risking my life further by sticking to it. This does not in any way alleviate my suspicions of him, but for the time being I'll look elsewhere. Still not liking how both Vezok and dram started being against BCs lynch at essentially the same time. Maybe I'll ISO dram along with FSHydra next.

[vezokpiraka]

Are you blind or something?
Why do you have suspicion on me?
It's not like scum will go " hey I am Ethan and I am a lyncher".

[Ademisk]

Very nice, Vezok. You're only a week too late.