Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[Moonlight]

And your reasoning is? Please tell me you've got something better than the "case" he made on you.

[Not_Mafia]

I also don't like his buddying on you, I see him trying to self impose a town bloc

[Zephyrus]

This game is getting more interesting with every post

[Zephyrus]

Town block, really? Trickster is the most town right now

[Tr1ckster]

I'll VOTE: Trickster then. Bored of waiting for the mod to come in

Cool. What happened to losing the scum read on me?

I also don't like his buddying on you, I see him trying to self impose a town bloc

Uh huh.

so much nonsense here it's ridiculous. >.<

[Not_Mafia]

When did I say I'd lost my scum read on you?

[Moonlight]

This game is getting more infuriating with every post

Fixed that for you.

@NM: You know, I love Town blocks. I do. Before I even knew what the term was, I caught myself having the instinct to form one from my very first game on this site.

And here's where my problem is with this game: one isn't forming on its own. There are too many forces working against each other. Too many different opinions from too many players. Chaos.

And nothing is being done to rectify that. I want to do something about it, but I honestly don't know what can be done. -_-

[Tr1ckster]

@Moonlight..

I think I have the answer.

____

Everyone unvote.

UNVOTE:

Now go back and reexamine your reads. Then find out who you disagree with. Don't yell at the person you disagree with, ask them questions about the places you disagree. Calmly, civilly, talk through the differences.

THen, when things have been more resolved, you can vote again.

[BoroPhil]

Tricky, you realise you aren't conftown in this game, yeah?

[Not_Mafia]

@NM: You know, I love Town blocks. I do. Before I even knew what the term was, I caught myself having the instinct to form one from my very first game on this site.

And here's where my problem is with this game: one isn't forming on its own. There are too many forces working against each other. Too many different opinions from too many players. Chaos.

Scum can weasel their way in to a townbloc in this too easily by just hunting the other scum team.

[Tr1ckster]

Tricky, you realise you aren't conftown in this game, yeah?

*sigh*

It was worth a try.

Alright, go back to bickering then. I can't stop you. >.<

[Not_Mafia]

He has a valid point, you've been trying to self impose a town bloc with Moonlight and establish yourself as town leader all game.

[idk]

-Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M. If you do not think someone is suspicious, then there is no need to keep your vote on them. There's no rule saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times. You simply could've unvoted and left it at that.

So with that, I'll

VOTE: Tman2nd

Is there a rule saying I have to unvote?

Haha, no there is not, but the fact that you

out right said

that you don't like the wagon, but

still

kept your vote on it is hella scummy.

you are misrepping. my reason didn't change.

my reason is: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

Moonlight asked why I was focussing on you and not him.

The next post explained it.

my reason remains: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

And that's bad during RVS because...?

sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?

what does your reply even mean here?

...

it's a question.

his reply is a question.

Boro, can you please explain why using "something rubbish" is a scumtell? Walk me through what's going through your head when you encounter something like that.

If, for example, I vote you now and my provided reasoning is that football/soccer avatars are only used by scum, does that mean I'm scum?

well yeah?

Are you fucking serious?

so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?

Did he say he thought you were scum?

well he does appear to be voting for me?

Votes have more uses than just to lynch.

so, if he vote for me for having a football avatar, you don't think that's a bit off?

If Moonlight on, say, Day 3, started off the day with a vote on you saying "Football avatars are scummy", then yes, of course that'd be a bit off. But that's not the situation that Moonlight was describing. He asked that if he, right then and there, voted you for having a football avatar, if he'd be scummy. After all his posting, including that question he just asked. He would not be scum just for that. The rest of his posts don't seem scummy (to me, at least). One random post like that does not mean he's scum.

these uses would be?

Um? Have you played Mafia before?

Pressuring people, getting reads, RVS votes, etc.

especially Not voting. has he posted?

From anyone else, I would assume this is sarcasm, but I'm not 100% sure with you.

"Notice how boro and zeph both had the same opening post. What do other people think that means? "

we probably are on the same team then. scum partners generally make the same opening post so everyone spots them easily.

see my above comment

"and seem too agreeable with a lot of things"

what does this actually mean?

a·gree·a·ble (ə-grē′ə-bəl)
adj.
1. To one's liking; pleasing: agreeable weather.
2. Suitable; conformable: a practice agreeable to the law.
3. Ready to consent or submit: I am agreeable to your plan.

A few people need to stop theorying scumteams so early, it just gets conf bias muddying your reads. It's d1, just lynch the scummiest player.

QFT.

I'll VOTE: Trickster then. Bored of waiting for the mod to come in

Sorry, but I don't see how Tr1ckster could scum atm.

@Moonlight..

I think I have the answer.

____

Everyone unvote.

UNVOTE:

Now go back and reexamine your reads. Then find out who you disagree with. Don't yell at the person you disagree with, ask them questions about the places you disagree. Calmly, civilly, talk through the differences.

THen, when things have been more resolved, you can vote again.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think this would work. As said by a couple others, you're not the town leader, and some people will just not listen to you.

Tricky, you realise you aren't conftown in this game, yeah?

I actually like this post from you. Although Tr1ckster is a townread of mine atm, he's definitely not confo-town.

That being said,

UNVOTE: TMAN2ND
VOTE: BOROPHIL

[Baezu]

I still want Baezu to explain why Boro and NM aren't scum together, Boro and Zeph I can understand. Also, if you're fine voting the 4 you mentioned, why did you avoid the midget wagon?

I guess they could be. I just don't feel like they'd make an effective team if you take their ISOs together. Usually scum have some sort if balancing strategy, like one person wagons and another elaborates and I don't see that happening with those two.

I voted zeph bc I feel he has the most to answer for of the four.

[Moonlight]

I'll aid that cause then.

VOTE: Zephyrus

@tman: What's your reasoning behind your vote? I don't like... all of Boro's play and I find it anti-Town, but when I ask myself if that makes him scum, I hesitate.

[The_Ascended]

Pedit: Whose catchup post?

Yours. Your post 113.

I have mixed feelings about going after lurkers. The nature of the setup and the plurality lynch rule give scum even more reason to not want to stand out, but at the same time it's something scum might use and call it "scumhunting". >_>

Anyone delaying too obviously in an attempt to push towards a plurality lynch will stand out pretty hard, though.

I don't know whether I love this or hate this

Right!? Maybe Mastin and I will do this when she gets back.

There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.

Agreed. Not necessarily agreed that Trickster is doing the latter, but agreed that there is a difference and that difference is important.

Am I scum then? Make your case on me.

VOTE: BoroPhil

If you're legitimately trying to lynch him over his avatar, yeah that would be pretty scummy. But that's not what you're doing.

To everyone else: Why is building a case based on bad reasoning a scumtell? Are you scumhunting or are you just after players whose play you disagree with? Are you just hoping that those players just happen to be scum?

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons.

Town should, ideally, be making reasonable cases that fit the facts. If one must distort the facts or rely on fallacies to make a case, then one is likely not correct or genuinely trying to be. Town should actively be avoiding making bad cases, and since scum's cases are necessarily false, their cases should be distinguishable. This is, of course, ideally, rather than practically. I don't have a good rule of thumb for the practical reality, only for how I think the game ought to be played.

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons, but when you employ the wrong reasons, you catch (mislynch) town a lot.

THIS IS

NOT

TOWN TR1CKSTER

I don't care what anyone says

VOTE: Tr1ckster

I'm parking my vote here for the rest of the day

And we should just trust you on this... why?

When Mastin catches up on this we're going to get the wallingest wall ever to wall

I'm looking forward to it.

Scumread on NM

How come? Also, can Who use a darker green? That light green makes my eyes bleed.

I don't like the way you're telling us what to do as if you've been playing longer, Tr1ck. I'm not upset for his illegitimate vote, and I don't think No one is either. He's just voting people he doesn't like instead of scum, and hiding in the background and lurking like a scummy bastard. Step off.

Vi, voting him because he's doing something you like is ironic. Let's VOTE: Zeph instead.

Fine...

This kind of dissonance should be sorted out before you post. It could definitely be a way to disguise ulterior motives.

you'll find I'm pretty straight up. If I vote for someone, it's because they are scummy. I don't mess around and play games.

you are confusing (deliberately or otherwise) 'not liking' with 'finding scummy'

I'm voting for Tricky because he is scummy, not because I don't like him.

If I was voting for the person I least liked, it would be that obnoxious multi-headed thing.

Even if he seemed initially scummy, has Trickster's play continued along that line? I would say that the early push was not indicative of his whole play.

Pasch's townreads: Trickster, Moonlight, Not_Mafia

Pasch's weaker townreads: 4 heads, IDK, Baezu

People Pasch thinks need to do more: Midget, Yuriko, Finglove, Tman

Pasch's fairly weak scumreads: Boro, Zeph

I'm honestly inclined to just sheep Moonlight. He seems to be the most level-headed and clearly pro-town. But I'll wait until Mastin gets back tomorrow and can share her thoughts.

[BoroPhil]

Pressuring people (those you think are scum?)
getting reads (on those you think are scum?)
RVS votes (I think we are past that now)

so in other words, you vote for those you think are scum?

and tbqh I have no idea where you are coming from with Moon's question. If someone votes for me and says it's because of my avatar, how can that not be scummy? It's certainly not pro-town. Regardless of stage, except RVS which we weren't/aren't at.

[BoroPhil]

oh and idk - thanks for the definition. though I'm sure you knew that wasn't what I was after. where exactly have I been 'agreeable' and what does it mean in the context of this game?

[Zephyrus]

I voted zeph bc I feel he has the most to answer for of the four.

Please, you don't have any questions for me by you would like answers. Try a little harder before you jump on a wagon scum.

[Moonlight]

Sorry to idk for mixing him up with tman in my previous post.. =X

Town should, ideally, be making reasonable cases that fit the facts. If one must distort the facts or rely on fallacies to make a case, then one is likely not correct or genuinely trying to be. Town should actively be avoiding making bad cases, and since scum's cases are necessarily false, their cases should be distinguishable. This is, of course, ideally, rather than practically. I don't have a good rule of thumb for the practical reality, only for how I think the game ought to be played.

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons, but when you employ the wrong reasons, you catch (mislynch) town a lot.

That ideal scenario relies on people being not just reasonable, but perfectly logical, which is why practice differs in my opinion. I get called reasonable a lot and I can be, but I'd never call myself logical.

For example, in my last game I aided in catching scum by scumreading someone over something that made no sense to her; I judged that certain elements of her play wouldn't come from Town-her, despite never having played with her before. That is logically fallacious and I'm aware of it, and even now I still believe that Town-her would have played differently.

I'm honestly inclined to just sheep Moonlight. He seems to be the most level-headed and clearly pro-town. But I'll wait until Mastin gets back tomorrow and can share her thoughts.

I'm relieved you don't follow that inclination. Even if I was confTown it still wouldn't mean I'm right (and boy do I waffle), so I can never recommend sheeping me.

I voted zeph bc I feel he has the most to answer for of the four.

Please, you don't have any questions for me by you would like answers. Try a little harder before you jump on a wagon scum.

If she is scum, why aren't you voting her? And why did you speculate on a Tricks & Baezu team when you believe that Tricks is the most Town?

[Zephyrus]

It was a speculation that Baezu did a 180 when her original FOS was trick. I asked a question on what everyone else thought in that same statement.

I haven't voted for Baezu because I see no reason in voting her because she voted me.

[BoroPhil]

@ Pasch - like I said at 188, his attempted misrepping of me at 107 (and he did it to not as well?) wasn't good either. I think his overall play is scummy. He's trying hard to seem town, but town that does not make him.

[BoroPhil]

I think this is where I am at the moment

Safe townreads: The Ascended, Not_Mafia, Zeph,

leaning town: Moonlight, random, tman (quite like the last two but could do with contributing more)

idk?: idk (really don't like either of their big posts, but nothing to suggest they are scum I don't think)

didn't know they were playing: Yuriko, Finglove

scummy: Baezu, 4 heads, Tricky

[Tr1ckster]

I think this is where I am at the moment

Safe townreads: The Ascended, Not_Mafia, Zeph,

leaning town: Moonlight, random, tman (quite like the last two but could do with contributing more)

idk?: idk (really don't like either of their big posts, but nothing to suggest they are scum I don't think)

didn't know they were playing: Yuriko, Finglove

scummy: Baezu, 4 heads, Tricky

The Hanzo is strong with this one.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoroPhil

[Not_Mafia]

What does that mean?