The Legend of Zelda: Defense of Hyrule (Night Eight)


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Post Post #3025 (ISO) » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:12 pm

Post by Lord Mhork »

To be fair, SK is inherently a very difficult role. Your advantages come in the form of not getting associative tells. And also freebie godfatherness for two nights is nothing to sneeze at plus the fact remains that you were automatically lumped into the conf-town circle of the three dead townies which was a plus. Also you got the advantage of killing each night.

As for the teams, I spent a long time trying to work them. I wanted to avoid making them cookie cutter duplicates. Admittedly Ganon was a little more powerful nightwise, but that was the extent of it. Ganon was bulletproof, sure, but any investigation--or hell the scum team shooting him--reveals that. Plus full bulletproofness definitely had the shot of looking sketch as all hell to any setup spec. Bongo Bongo was a 1-Shot Dayvig, sure, but his issue came in the fact that he would be automatically outed if he ever did a Day kill and a Night kill. Really that should have happened and everyone in the Dead QT and I could not figure out why no one really pushed that. And finally Twinrova could Ninja, sure, but it was only 2 shots of it and frankly only had a slim chance of actually working. Especially since she was likely to waste Night One with no one watching her.

Sages, on the other hand, had Daytalk. That's inherently hard to balance, but in a game this large constant communication could be key. The issue here is that they didn't really utilize it, which is more on the players than the role. Daytalk allows for communication. The Rolecop had the advantage of not only hunting PRs and allowing for better setup spec, but he could deliver his results immediately in the morning and discuss them. That gives Sages a very powerful Day game. And the Godmother was just more cake because if the cop hit her, she was cleared.

And no one should ever assume that a role will be a certain alignment. The only ones you can really be sure about are cops, ICs, godfathers, etc. The ones who literally
cannot
be anything else. Frankly I don't know why a Day Vig would have to be town, especially when kill flavor matches.

Plus SK was still bulletproof. So yeah.
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Post Post #3026 (ISO) » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:28 pm

Post by ActionDan »

more things from this game I guess because jesus how was town so bad I felt like I carried everybody and still didn't win:

Bulba was pretty damn town? the hell was he lynched for.
DIDNT ANYONE REALIZE THAT A MACHO BODYGUARD => TOWN PROTECTIVE ROLE => AA TOWN? ok caps are harsh maybe but damn
It took a century for people to realize JKLM was obviously scum by claim.
RC what kind of claim was that. plz never again.
I really am surprised Iec was town D7 onwards.

Special bonus:
@Empking: STOP SHOOTING ME. I BEGGED TWICE FOR SAGE SCUM TO SHOOT TOWN PEOPLE.

Well I was BP only and the 2-shot thing was something to sneeze at frankly considering 1 - cop + I had to make up a power.

being BP for myself meant that any scum team that shot me would auto reveal that were one of it's members lynched and they had 2+ members during twilight: See what JKLM said. yeah, that was the truth 100% (well besides that we got redirected bs I guess) And before I got the mask I wasn't immune to investigations though it hardly mattered this game.

BP claim isn't hard to fathom in a game with 7 scum sorry.
same with a day-vig ("you mean this scum guy with a day-vig can get a free shot at town when town only have 13 to begin with? Yeah, that sure is scum! pffft") also why would scum ever do a day-kill + night kill (well unless scum derped like they did here). you shouldn't factor that in for balance since it really should have been a non-issue.
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #3027 (ISO) » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:32 pm

Post by ActionDan »

like I don't really care how good sage's dayplay should have been if ganon have someone who can shoot whoever they want whenever they want in the face. (also ganon endgame potential is amazing and about 1000 times better than useless sage. who only sit back and watch roles and kills fly around them and have no dmg control)
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #3028 (ISO) » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:10 pm

Post by BBmolla »

After I died town played like shit
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Post Post #3029 (ISO) » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:11 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Game was fun. AD fooled me, I thought Iec was SK.
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Post Post #3030 (ISO) » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:11 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Fucking knew you were scum Iso, watching these kids ignore you completely post death was so frustrating.
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Post Post #3031 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:54 am

Post by Iso »

:twisted:

GG, [most] everyone. I had fun. I replaced into a sub-par spot and made it work for my team.

Hiraki - Nice job with keeping the bus strong. I'm glad we went with my gambit instead of you shooting a townie, as it clearly won us the game, here by making it unsolvable. :]
ActionDan - Well-played, I didn't figure out you were the SK until around the Bulba/Levi lynches, and then it was still between you and Iece at that point (until you claimed, anyway, and then I knew you were the SK). You almost had it, too! I like your playstyle; you're a good player and I hope we play together again sometime in the future.
Iecerint - I had you pegged as town early on in the game but then I figured out there was an SK so I was a little concerned by that until Dan claimed. Overall, decent play, though.
KrazyEyeKilla - All I remember was that you were an easy Day 1 lynch.
Kise - I liked your WIFOM on Day 1, it made me think you were town. I suppose I have Dan to thank for your death, as I probably wouldn't have figured you out - at least not until later down the line.
Porkens - Sorry I had to push you so hard, but you were being needlessly belligerent and you were opposed to me; thus, you had to die.
Alsark - You were obvtown through the whole game, and it baffled me that not everyone thought so. You played well, but try to rely on meta less!
LnGrrrR - I had to cover your ass a lot in early-game; JKLM got lucky with the Rolecop and I'm surprised no one called me out on waffling between you and JKLM as the lynch that Day. That was a pretty dead giveaway, IMO. But I'm sure you'll get better as you play more. :)
RadiantCowbells - I only rode you as much as I did for your lurkiness and spamminess. I got a good chuckle out of a few of your posts. I also knew you weren't a Cop. :P
MollaDoni - What set you on to me? That's probably the biggest reason we killed you.
JKLM - I think the holes I poked in your play when I cased you is a good place to start for improving your game. I liked your in-game personality, and you seem like a decent guy.
Kagura - You guys were obvtown and so you had to die. I guess we can thank Dan for taking care of that for us, eh? I'm pretty sure one of your heads thought I was scum - why was Nacho so convinced I wasn't?
BulbaZak - Your play was very confusing early on and I couldn't tell if you were just really weird town or Sage scum. I think your earlier stance on Levi pretty much confirmed you as town for me, though, and I only lynched you so I could get a mislynch in and then blame Dan for it later on if I had to.
Waynegg - I decided you had to die because otherwise, you were going to make a bunch of noise until I got lynched, which was simply unacceptable. What exactly made you think I was scum? And what's scumputer, by the way? (I read the spectator chat.)
Leviathan93 - Yeah, you really need to not be so scummy. I was pretty sure you were town but there were just some things I couldn't ignore so I decided to go for the push, here.
Keybladewielder - STOP FLAVORGAMING.
Empking - I think your lack of content overall was what put you below everyone else's radar, but based on your voting pattern, I knew you knew I was scum because you were scum. :P Fortunately, you hadn't actually done anything all game, so getting you lynch only solidified my position as a townie.
Seanald - I had difficulty figuring you out early on in Day 1, too, until I remembered Fairly Odd Parents Mafia and just shrugged it off as "oh eh guess Sean's town". I didn't expect you to be a PR, though, but thanks for Tracking me and seeing me do nothing. <3 I didn't want to perform the Nightkill until I knew I wouldn't be compromised by doing such, as I was by far in the best position of all of my team; ergo, I knew I had to kill you the Night you died because otherwise there was the chance that Hiraki would have been Jailed. I decided that if you Tracked me, you or I probably would've been the Jai target, and I would have either gone a Night with a No-Kill or been seen doing nothing yet again (which I could easily blame on my BP, Dan's claimed Commute, or AA's Jail). So I winged it, hoping AA was still not paying attention to the game, and it worked out in our favor!
Amethyst Actor - "Iso is town because meta!" I'm really disappointed with how you guys performed in this game. Had you been more contributory and actually paid attention, the town could have won this. I figured out you were the Jailer based on Kagura's claim around Day 2 or 3 but we had much higher priority targets due to other claims/actions, and you guys were mislynch material up 'til the very end. For the first half of the game, I honestly couldn't tell if you were just playing really badly or part of the Sage faction. Though I knew I was stretching it when I suggested a Jailing SK. Anyway, step it up, guys. I know you both can play better than this - or at least, Purp can.
Lord Mhork - Contrary to what people are saying, I felt that the game was a little town-sided over being scum-sided. The scum had the ability to crosskill + crosslynch, the town had lots of protection and potential investigation, and I felt like we were going down when the first two Nights ended with no scum kill. I disagree with you confirming that the town had no killing role (though I think that was inadvertent, so no worries), but overall, I had a lot of fun playing this game. It wasn't painful to catch up on like Bowser's Potluck, I had a decent team, and most of the cast of this game was enjoyable to play with. Please put me down as a replacement for your Pan's Labyrinth game. :)

Feel free to ask me things, but if you don't, see you guys around.
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Post Post #3032 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:57 am

Post by Iso »

Dan: Why didn't you kill Hiraki on the last Night? It was your only chance at winning, which I thought you would have realized.
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Post Post #3033 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:30 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 3006, ActionDan wrote:not to mention that out of 13 people town power was

jailkeeper
macho bodyguard
loved
maskgiver
3x mask activated things
universal mask backup (unsure if he gets a power regardless of activation)

^the above is terribly weak.
came here to say this

gg
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Post Post #3034 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:49 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 3031, Iso wrote:You guys were obvtown and so you had to die. I guess we can thank Dan for taking care of that for us, eh? I'm pretty sure one of your heads thought I was scum - why was Nacho so convinced I wasn't?
Meta experience on his end, and the fact that my read on you wasn't very strong. I'd definitely not have figured out the crossbus until possibly way way later but yeah we weren't living till way later

I had AD scum D1 due to huge deviations from his town game but Nacho talked me out of that one too; I was fairly close to targeting molladoni on N2/N3 but wouldn't have changed anything due to roleblocks/them dying/porkens dead already

Porkens push was entirely on me.

Mask sale should've not been roleblockable (it's not like we really visited); there was literally nothing I could do to get masks off to people, and Nacho didn't even think we were being RBed until I gave him demonstrable proof we were due to the fact that it wasn't terribly obvious what our inventory was supposed to took like after a successful sale.
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Post Post #3035 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:53 am

Post by Hiraki »

I agree with Bulba fully but I'm not sure if I want to be an ass right now.

I do have one question.

Why couldn't you just say I did a "real" action than just an action?

The problem I had with the whole dayvig thing is the terrible wording:
Lord Mhork wrote:In Post 2438 and action was declared. This action has had no effect.
Saying that the action had no effect was correct, yes. But the wording makes it sound like I was just pulling a day action out of my ass. Why couldn't you, after I asked you twice after to confirm that it was a real action and not a fake one, confirm it? Furthermore, why did you just kind of outright ignore me when I asked twice?
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Post Post #3036 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:57 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 416, Amethyst Actor wrote:Borkiiieeeeee <3

If I start attacking you for god knows what reason (prolly end up being something Nacho does) , I want you to stop me asap
:mad:
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Post Post #3037 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:05 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 2386, Kagura wrote:Third party (the spider kill, which is obviously allowed every night) could be that fucking skulltulla house guy for all I know.
also :D
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Post Post #3038 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:30 am

Post by ActionDan »

In post 3032, Iso wrote:Dan: Why didn't you kill Hiraki on the last Night? It was your only chance at winning, which I thought you would have realized.
I thought the team was Iece/Iso due to him shooting you. Well, I at least thought it was not Hiraki/Iso so Iece had to be a partner.

Most of what I said on Day 8 I believed.
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #3039 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:45 am

Post by Lord Mhork »

@Hiraki:
I don't remember ignoring you. Is it possible that happened during one of those stretches I wasn't here? And I wasn't really sure how to handle that action interaction. I will look more in the future to make sure strange things like that don't happen again.

@People saying town was weak from the get-go: I couldn't disagree more. They had a JK and a bodyguard and a LOVED TOWNIE (who has the ability to automatically win at LyLo) in addition to the mask group. The mask group itself was made so that it could function even in spite of overwhelming odds. Mask Vendor dies? Everyone is one shot. One of the mask-activateds die? Another person picks up the ability.

In addition I think people are vastly overestimating how overpowered a scum DayVig is here. It's not a 7 scum vs 13 town setup. That's way too simplistic. It was a 1 SK v 3 scum v 3 scum v 13 town setup. And if you look at the dead QT, most thought town was totally gonna win because of scum kill getting blocked twice

Which is another reason I don't feel that DayVig was overpowered here. Yes it's a versatile tool that can get rid of an übertownie (revealing the user as scum), a protective role (also revealing the user as scum), or whomever the fuck else they wanna kill (possibly revealing the user as scum), but this is also a game with a TON of protection and bulletproofness. Plus everything was setup from the get go to make sure Bongo Bongo was super obv scum after using it
unless he tried using it like a townie
. There was kill flavor incrimination. There is the whole 'why the fuck did you kill obv town x' discussion. The fact that Hiraki wasn't lynched after all that is NOT a credit to its overpoweredness, but a credit to the skill with which he and ISO played the game.

ActionDan, I'm sorry you had a hard fake claim, but honestly I think your role was far from weak. You definitely had more than a lot of serial killers I've seen. Plus, again, you could kill every night which was more than the scum. Frequently scum was either wishing they could kill or sending in kills on the wrongs nights (*cough*Ganon*cough*) so you shouldn't belittle that advantage.

And finally adages might not have had a ton of sheer killing power going for them, but day talk can be massively advantageous. It can completely shift a game. It's hardly a balance thing when a player or group doesn't fully utilize the role they're given. It would be like complaining that town was crippled because Jailkeeper is too weak because AA didn't use it for 5 nights. As for Role Cop: he found scum. He found a ninja. He could effectively hunt the other scum team. He could share that info in the day phase so as not to out himself too early. That's nothing to sneeze at. And Godmother might not have done anything this game, but there's another scenario. Imagine Mask Vendor turned him on night one and night two he investigates Godmother. Boom conftown to him. It was a little swingy, sure like most games, but I vehemently disagree they were doomed from the beginning like you said.
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Post Post #3040 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:51 am

Post by BBmolla »

In post 3031, Iso wrote:MollaDoni - What set you on to me? That's probably the biggest reason we killed you.
No idea. Probably something dumb like gut. You played well man.
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Post Post #3041 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:24 am

Post by Hiraki »

In post 3039, Lord Mhork wrote:I don't remember ignoring you. Is it possible that happened during one of those stretches I wasn't here?
You did it twice.
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Post Post #3042 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:26 am

Post by Hiraki »

In post 3041, Hiraki wrote:
In post 3039, Lord Mhork wrote:I don't remember ignoring you. Is it possible that happened during one of those stretches I wasn't here?
You did it twice.
In post 3039, Lord Mhork wrote:Plus everything was setup from the get go to make sure Bongo Bongo was super obv scum after using it unless he tried using it like a townie. There was kill flavor incrimination. There is the whole 'why the fuck did you kill obv town x' discussion. The fact that Hiraki wasn't lynched after all that is NOT a credit to its overpoweredness, but a credit to the skill with which he and ISO played the game.
So let's get this straight because I sort of believed you before but this just looks like bullshit now.

You're telling us that you thought that the town was finely tuned to have more protection roles just made my day-kill super obvious because I would've been obvious?

How does that work? Are you telling me that you tried to underpower dayvig by making it so that my dayvig was now obvious and had a greater chance to fail?
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Post Post #3043 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:27 am

Post by Hiraki »

That was meant to be an edit. I'm tired but still both questions are relevant.
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Post Post #3044 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:35 am

Post by Lord Mhork »

No no. I just mean that the DayVig was not obviously a town role. There was kill flavor implication and a public dayvigging, meaning that the role had to be played extremely carefully to avoid being more or less confirmed as scum. And it wasn't overpowered for scum because there was a lot of protection floating around to fuck up kills.
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Post Post #3045 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:48 am

Post by Natirasha »

I'm really not seeing how this game has a lot of protective roles? Jailkeeper, sure, but bodyguard isn't really a protective role in the normal sense since it maintains kill parity. Besides that we have...2 non town BPs.

And Loved is pretty much a weaker innocent child. Hardly lylo winning.
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Post Post #3046 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:56 am

Post by Seanald »

HEY I HAD FUN HERE. it was cool.

Actiondan you fooled me big, I WAS GOING TO TRACK YOU TOO the night I tracked ISO, it was between ISO and you, reasoning being I actually thought ISO was the SK since he claimed BP.

and you were like 1000% town in my head, which means its wrong and the opposite should be true.

I gotta rely on my instincts more, cuz I just kept going against them this game and it fucked me.
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Post Post #3047 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:58 am

Post by Seanald »

I just wish the town didn't have so many shit players on it lol.

very well played ISO and Hiraki, had me fooled as shit.

and very well played Actiondan.
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Post Post #3048 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:12 am

Post by Iso »

In post 3037, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 2386, Kagura wrote:Third party (the spider kill, which is obviously allowed every night) could be that fucking skulltulla house guy for all I know.
also :D
Yeah, I called that one, too. :3
In post 3040, BBmolla wrote:
In post 3031, Iso wrote:MollaDoni - What set you on to me? That's probably the biggest reason we killed you.
No idea. Probably something dumb like gut. You played well man.
Thank you. :]
In post 3047, Seanald wrote:I just wish the town didn't have so many shit players on it lol.

very well played ISO and Hiraki, had me fooled as shit.

and very well played Actiondan.
<3
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Post Post #3049 (ISO) » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:25 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

When I died I was 6/7 on scum, not bad.

Only error was Bulba.

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