Mini 1454 - GAME OVER

[Rob14]

Vote Count #1.13:

notscience:

jon_h61, Nobody Special, JuanJuan, AngelInFreezer, fuzzybutternut, kthxbye (6)

Kthxbye:

Amrun, Aj The Epic, marcmann2 (3)

Amrun:

bubbajack8, notscience (2)

JuanJuan:

Hoopla (1)

Not Voting:

HookerPunch

With 13 alive, it takes 7 players to reach a lynch.

V/LA:

Mod V/LA from 5/27 to 5/28.
Amrun until 5/28.
AngelInFreezer until 5/28.

Deadline:

(expired on 2013-06-10 22:45:00)

[notscience]

Fuzzy- "I don't like policy lynches D1"

And is on the votelist FOR a policy lynch on D1.

[JuanJuan]

Hoopla, your position on the wagon went from #279:

notscience's wagon isn't horrible. For some reason, his page 5 vote on fuzzy struck me as weird. It was a wishy-washy vote that was fairly easy to justify given how obtuse fuzzy was being. Scum like to jump on the safe votes, especially when they've got a wagon on themselves - essentially, more pressure = less risk taking behaviour.

So, the wagon is alright and notscience is dodgy.

to #284, suggesting that the wagon now is sus to you, and then #303,

I want to lynch someone on this wagon, and it should be one of the early voters, in my opinion.

Why did your opinion change so dramatically, so quickly? Now I understand the logic of both positions, they both make sense, but why so radical a change of mind?

------

I'll run through a few of my reads, seeing as i've been painfully inactive the last few days. Ironically they're pretty similar to Hoopla's:

I reckon fuzzy is town, if a bit obstinate. Science's railing against him constantly is silly imo, if he's going to change his play, he's going to change when he wants to, clearly.

Amrun I reckon is probably town. I haven't seen anything to suggest he's scum, maybe a little harsh on bubba in the beginning but then bubba probably needed it.

AIF/GIF seems a little easy to trust (talking about my first interaction on early pages with them), but I reckon there's town in there.

Hoopla probably town, despite this quick turnaround there's logic in what she's saying.

Bubba i'd say is town, unless he was scum desperately trying to prove himself, the way he tries to logically work things out seems soundly town-oriented.

Kthxbye maybe scum. Seems to realise that Science is the easy wagon and so hops right back on after initially unvoting, states who he thinks is scum/town without actually mentioning why he thinks any of it.

Science i'm not sure on. I don't think the sarcasm is helping his case, and I still question why he got worked up by people putting 3/4 votes on bubba with some simple early-game pressure. I'd probably leave my vote on him were he not so close to the lynch, but tbh all this unvoting and voting around L-1 is worrying me of an 'accidental' hammer. I actually thought someone had hammered Science last page but I was just miscalculating, so in light of the possibility for confusion i'm going to UNVOTE: NotScience for now.

AJ is puzzling. Last post Saturday night votes JKM, saying 'this is not a random vote' then leaves. I found it pretty hard to read up until then but that sticks out for me.

jon maybe scum. Seems to make a fair amount of filler posts about semantics/not necessarily game related qu's (hydra questions, MS experience). All his reads so far have been null or town so far apart from Science, who already had a wagon. Seems a little too easy? Agreed with AJ over the Amrun pressure, perhaps trying to hide from Amrun's aggression.

That's what I came up with so far.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ is puzzling. Last post Saturday night votes JKM, saying 'this is not a random vote' then leaves. I found it pretty hard to read up until then but that sticks out for me.

That was a reaction test to see if JKM had any scum that would jump to his defense and pick a fight with the 'weak link'. Unfortunately, JKM isn't scum (even though his replace out had an odd timing to it). So, next.

UNVOTE:

Of course I'm going to play random gambits. That's how you win small games.

Hoopla, you chose the wrong scum. It's Jon, not Juan. A simple misspelling on your part, I'm sure, but you made a much better case against Jon than Juan.

VOTE: Jon

Also, to your issue with me: One, I have a good amount of weekend hours at my job and two, NS wagon would've had an interesting flip. Think of the level of play coming off the wagon. Their reactions would be SO EASY to read the next day after a flip. It would spell disaster for all scum because the majority of them are basic players, as Amrun said. That's why I liked the NS wagon... As a scapegoat, it was a mildly scummy person with a mildly scummy wagon that would've revealed some interesting notes with a flip and given us scum had NS not been scum. It was fantastically designed to catch all the younger players and separate town to scum. Now we just have to look in and vote Jon out.

Also, Hookerpunch is scum.

My L-1 vote on notscience, I immediately regretted, but I couldn't really back down from that course of action, considering it's boldness

. I've tried to stay ambivalent to the whole affair, because I do get both scum vibes and town vibes from him, but I kinda got bored for a moment and forgot the bigger picture. His defensiveness to me doesn't paint him favorably in my eyes(not necessarily because he is FoS'ing me, day ones are dumb and people really have no idea), but it did, combined with my immediate regret, give him enough benefit of the doubt to allow me to reprieve him for a while.

That is a scumclaim. Scum cares about positioning, town naturally is better and more comfortable with their movements. Defensiveness is a noob tell. Not a scum tell, but we've missed that apparently.

[jon_h61]

@ AJ you forgot to give a reason for your accusation. You gave a reason for Hookerpunch. If it's (I haven't contributed enough). You do realize this is a holiday weekend, right? There is Meat World out there too. But I guess we have to start somewhere.

Also, to your issue with me: One, I have a good amount of weekend hours at my job and two, NS wagon would've had an interesting flip. Think of the level of play coming off the wagon. Their reactions would be SO EASY to read the next day after a flip. It would spell disaster for all scum because the majority of them are basic players, as Amrun said. That's why I liked the NS wagon... As a scapegoat, it was a mildly scummy person with a mildly scummy wagon that would've revealed some interesting notes with a flip and given us scum had NS not been scum.

It was fantastically designed to catch all the younger players and separate town to scum.

Now we just have to look in and vote Jon out.

You just had me go through all the vote counts looking for where you voted NS, just to find out you meant NotScience. Can we come to a general consensus to call him Not, Science, or anything but NS? Can you explain a little of what your "fantastically designed" trap got you? Personally I think it failed, on both parts. I didn't like HP's comments on "not being a PR", but I think he's Town ATM.

I just reread the quote. It sounds like you're trying to defuse the wagon. Do you think Not's Town then? OR you his scum buddy?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, you chose the wrong scum. It's Jon, not Juan. A simple misspelling on your part, I'm sure, but you made a much better case against Jon than Juan.

When I was contemplating who to vote from those early voters, a couple of jon's posts struck me as town. Like when he was lucidly talking about buddying and forming a town bloc - just seemed too candid and like he wasn't worrying about what people thought. His vote being static the entire day is suspicious, but reading his iso, a couple of gut things like that stick out as town. I didn't really get as many town pangs when reading Juan's posts.

[Hoopla]

That is a scumclaim. Scum cares about positioning, town naturally is better and more comfortable with their movements. Defensiveness is a noob tell. Not a scum tell, but we've missed that apparently.

Scum also care about image, and willingly admitting something like that incurs a lot of risk to your image. Why risk that as scum? I think his confession there seemed pretty town.

[Hoopla]

Why did your opinion change so dramatically, so quickly? Now I understand the logic of both positions, they both make sense, but why so radical a change of mind?

My initial feeling about notscience was gut-based. He feels scummy in an obvious way, but he doesn't make sense as scum in the context of the game and my other reads, which is why I changed my mind. The slow build-up and static nature of the wagon with people not bothering to budge off it nor analyse it beyond the surface makes it seem a lot more likely that scum is just capitalising on an easy target, rather than scum having being caught.

In general, I feel I'm more accurate when I consider the wagon and other factors, than just going on gut.

[Aj The Epic]

@ AJ you forgot to give a reason for your accusation. You gave a reason for Hookerpunch. If it's (I haven't contributed enough). You do realize this is a holiday weekend, right? There is Meat World out there too. But I guess we have to start somewhere.

Also, to your issue with me: One, I have a good amount of weekend hours at my job and two, NS wagon would've had an interesting flip. Think of the level of play coming off the wagon. Their reactions would be SO EASY to read the next day after a flip. It would spell disaster for all scum because the majority of them are basic players, as Amrun said. That's why I liked the NS wagon... As a scapegoat, it was a mildly scummy person with a mildly scummy wagon that would've revealed some interesting notes with a flip and given us scum had NS not been scum.

It was fantastically designed to catch all the younger players and separate town to scum.

Now we just have to look in and vote Jon out.

You just had me go through all the vote counts looking for where you voted NS, just to find out you meant NotScience. Can we come to a general consensus to call him Not, Science, or anything but NS? Can you explain a little of what your "fantastically designed" trap got you? Personally I think it failed, on both parts. I didn't like HP's comments on "not being a PR", but I think he's Town ATM.

I just reread the quote. It sounds like you're trying to defuse the wagon. Do you think Not's Town then? OR you his scum buddy?

Nice post.

First off, no. You're bad because you haven't changed a vote, sitting on a really easy wagon and coasting on through.

Now, the trap is after the lynch, and the reactions that come from the flip. The lynch hasn't gone through yet, so obviously the trap part hasn't even taken effect. Look at the wagon and point out one pro-town player on Notscience.

Oh, and nice implication with false options. I neither think Notscience is town nor is he my buddy. I simply believe the results of his lynch would be fantastic. What's awesome is the fact that you think I meant to DEFUSE the wagon. Here's a little side note for you: The only person who'd be particularly worried about this post is scum. I just let on to an idea which I believed to be almost fool-proof to catch scum. You, however, are now worried and wondering if that post would defuse the wagon when in fact, only scum would be worried about my capabilities to catch scum from it, hence trying to back down or attack it as invalid. No part of my post implied stopping the wagon, just that I could find the scum on it.

[jon_h61]

My initial feeling about notscience was gut-based. He feels scummy in an obvious way, but he doesn't make sense as scum in the context of the game and my other reads, which is why I changed my mind. The slow build-up and static nature of the wagon with people not bothering to budge off it nor analyse it beyond the surface makes it seem a lot more likely that scum is just capitalising on an easy target, rather than scum having being caught.

I actually agree with this. In my game that Uberninja modded, (AJ was in it too, though mostly a non-presence) the Wagon on Maestro played out mostly the same. I've been keeping a close eye on this wagon, because of the similarities. Though on that wagon I was pressuring Maestro pretty hard at the end.

I'm honestly leaning more Town on Not ATM, but wanted to see what developed. I didn't get anything concrete unfortunately.

My main observation ATM is how Juan went from defending me to a soft push that I may be scum after AJ's attack on me. I find it a lot more suspicious than AJ's. AJ's felt Town motivated, Juan's felt opportunistic.

UNVOTE: for now.

[jon_h61]

Oh, and nice implication with false options. I neither think Notscience is town nor is he my buddy. I simply believe the results of his lynch would be fantastic. What's awesome is the fact that you think I meant to DEFUSE the wagon. Here's a little side note for you: The only person who'd be particularly worried about this post is scum. I just let on to an idea which I believed to be almost fool-proof to catch scum. You, however, are now worried and wondering if that post would defuse the wagon when in fact, only scum would be worried about my capabilities to catch scum from it, hence trying to back down or attack it as invalid. No part of my post implied stopping the wagon, just that I could find the scum on it.

OK, then since I unvoted before I read your post, I'm scum then. And I was worried? You're not doing a good job of scum hunting ATM, TBH.

[JuanJuan]

Hoopla, you chose the wrong scum. It's Jon, not Juan. A simple misspelling on your part, I'm sure, but you made a much better case against Jon than Juan.

When I was contemplating who to vote from those early voters, a couple of jon's posts struck me as town. Like when he was lucidly talking about buddying and forming a town bloc - just seemed too candid and like he wasn't worrying about what people thought. His vote being static the entire day is suspicious, but reading his iso, a couple of gut things like that stick out as town. I didn't really get as many town pangs when reading Juan's posts.

Apathy isn't hard to fake, and there's no chance of making a scumslip. I'm not sold on jon's alignment either way, but joking and seeming candid doesn't in my eyes stick out as a town indicator.

@jon, seeing as you posted while I was posting: I was posting my reads for everyone, so how that could be an opportunistic attack on you specifically, I don't really know. I was picking up on what I read in your ISO, like I did for AJ. Where did I defend you, by the way?

If anything, what you've just done against me comes off as opportunistic, trying to push peoples interests in a different direction.

[jon_h61]

@jon, seeing as you posted while I was posting: I was posting my reads for everyone, so how that could be an opportunistic attack on you specifically, I don't really know. I was picking up on what I read in your ISO, like I did for AJ. Where did I defend you, by the way?

If anything, what you've just done against me comes off as opportunistic, trying to push peoples interests in a different direction.

You had defended me in 280, well it kinda looked that way to me at least. I guess I somehow missed your reads post. I started reading at AJ's post. Then after what he wrote, I read your soft push. I was wrong, you did voice suspicion before AJ's post. I apologize, and retract that statement.

[jon_h61]

I dunno too many ISO windows open. I'm confused. I'm shutting them all down and starting over.

[JuanJuan]

I tend to just use ISO's for checking people's continuity. Can be quite fun for testing out potential scumpair ideas, though. (using double or triple ISO's in one 'display post' option)

[fuzzybutternut]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Juanjuan

Yep, I like this one.

[Aj The Epic]

Start explaining or today will end with your lynch. This is another bad unexplained vote from you.

[Kthxbye]

Lol, fuzzy isn't getting lynched today. He's town.

[notscience]

Place your bets on who jon parks a vote on next guys! Rest assured, he's the best parker in the business. I see Hoopla's points about the wagon, particularly those who started it and JKM (part of what was in JKMs was something I had speculated about myself a few pages back).

I don't like the end to 337. It feels more like someone nervous they trodded on the wrong foot. Not to mention, it's INCREDIBLY fence-sitty. "kinda looked" "somehow missed" all come across poorly IMO.

VOTE: jon

[Kthxbye]

Yeah, I've played with Jon before, this is how he was in that game and he's town too. See my town reads in may second post of this game and get your votes off those people as they are bad places to put your vote if you are town...

Then again, notscience isn't town so...carry on.

[notscience]

Protecting your scumbuddy?

[fuzzybutternut]

Start explaining or today will end with your lynch. This is another bad unexplained vote from you.

AJ, why so agro? I've never seen you like this.
Could you actually be scum this time? o.O

[fuzzybutternut]

Start explaining or today will end with your lynch. This is another bad unexplained vote from you.

AJ, why so agro? I've never seen you like this.
Could you actually be scum this time? o.O

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Bubba
For saying I'm a good wagon, but not voting me.

Totes serious, btw.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Amrun

This slot needs more attention.

yeah, VOTE: notscience

still interested in what the replacement says.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Juanjuan

Yep, I like this one.

Look at all your votes and tell me why I said to explain it.

[bubbajack8]

The three on Amrun are the three with the lowest amount of mafia knowledge/ms meta by my count. This is probably a frustration wagon and I really don't see much merit to it.

Inexperienced MS players, probably so, inexperienced Mafia players? By no means. Can we end this conversation.

I smell buddying in the first half of this post. Anyone else?

lol. Does it hurt for people to know my experience? I was bringing it up because of earlier posts.

"I'm telling YOU this so you can get a better read on me because I think you're town" I see buddying, I'm not retracting that statement. I'd like to know why.

I agree with Notscience here, that looked like blantant buddying.

VOTE: JKMatthews

Amrun is at least right about this.

A lot of unengaging philosophizing coming from Matthew and not much else. It's fairly scummy, and as a bonus tidbit, if he is scum, then his buddies haven't been under pressure all day. We'd see more urgency or direction towards other players if his partners were being wagoned - again, assuming he is scum, though.

So who do you speculate his buddy / buddies are?

hey bubbajack, you don't need to respond to every single thing someone says to you. lets tighten it up. those quote stripes are killing me.

And I didn't put that in a spoiler, just for you.

Anyways, as for the current wagons, I feel extremely hesitant to jump on the Amrun train, despite being mildly skeptical of her--I don't feel particularly confident on the three people really voting for her.

JKMatthews--Okay, I see both sides of the argument. Bubba did a lot of the legwork in post 258 on the town-argument, but the others have rightfully pointed out an amount of philophosizing and shallowness. In addition, the people I am more likely to trust are against him, so there is that. Being said, I am not ready to commit to a JKM wagon just yet.

The amount of buddying Hooker is giving Amrun is too damn high.

Which leads me to notscience. After re-reading notscience's vote history & posts since the point Hoopla pointed out, I am more and more liking this wagon. His three votes--Amrun, fuzzy, and I--have always been after someone else voted on them, but not only that, but someone who got some bad PR directly before his votes. I'm unsure if he's just being reactionary or not(it's possible), but I'm more willing to believe he's trying to push a wagon early in an attempt to get the tempo ball rolling in all cases. Ergo, I am willing to put down the ultimatum of a VOTE: notscience.

And then he joins the current wagon. Are you fucking kidding. What an opportunity vote.

Fuzzy is town.
Bubba is town.
Jon is town.

Not is scum
Hp is scum
Aj is scum

All others are more or less null atm.

Basically, notscience looks like caught d1 scum to me. Back to L-1.

VOTE: notscience

And my town read goes off his fucking rocker. I leave for 3 days, and this happens?

So university has gone back for me today, meaning what little free time I had is even smaller.
My 'philosophising' and vagueness are completely fair accusations - I always forget the amount of time that needs to be dedicated to a game increases exponentially with the number of players, and I fear I really can't keep up with this game.

Mod, could I please be replaced?

I hope this doesn't disrupt the game too much. Have fun everyone!

Aw. Sad to see you go (again)

What role was he last time he replaced out of a game?

Not going to make Hoopla mad by quoting one post and saying little about it, but his 303 is so town it's unbelievable.

I will however quote this.

Anti-town doesn't always equal scum. For example, some of your antics have been anti-town.

You must reaaaaally think NobodySpecial is scummy then, right?

As much as I think fuzzy is town, this post is incredibly amazing for the reason that it's calling fuzzy out on his flawed logic.

Don't feel like quoting HP's 318 by I will answer it by paragraph.

1. So you just want to jump on any wagon even if you are meh about it?

2. So you kept a vote on someone even though you regretted it?

Rest of the post: And then you shift focus to people not talking, and yet don't unvote? Wowzas.

Thanks for sharing that, HookerPunch (#318). That actually reads quite sincerely.

~~

As an aside: I have a strong gut scum read on Aj The Epic. He's flown under the radar and completely avoided commenting on the notscience wagon. He isn't the only one to do so, but he appears to be checking in on a more regular basis which is scummier - he's doing the bare minimum. If notscience is town, then Aj is the one person off the wagon most likely to be scum - he's quite content letting other people absorb the limelight.

Wut.

Juan Juan's post 327 is town.

Aj's end of post 328 is fact. And should be listened to.

Lol, fuzzy isn't getting lynched today. He's town.

Fuzzy makes me wonder if there's a jester / fool.

Place your bets on who jon parks a vote on next guys! Rest assured, he's the best parker in the business. I see Hoopla's points about the wagon, particularly those who started it and JKM (part of what was in JKMs was something I had speculated about myself a few pages back).

I don't like the end to 337. It feels more like someone nervous they trodded on the wrong foot. Not to mention, it's INCREDIBLY fence-sitty. "kinda looked" "somehow missed" all come across poorly IMO.

VOTE: jon

So I go from thinking Not could be town and he joins a rising wagon.... wut.

My thoughts for the day now that my V/LA is over. Don't have much to say on the juanjuan and jon argument. I'm pretty null on both of them...