Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Alchemist21]

@Quilford, Except you are obviously aware of your own meta, and have argued it multiple times. It's dead null. BBMolla may or may not be aware of his, and if Mina agrees with what I saw then it's a tip in the Town direction.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

On that note, ETL, did your teammates mention anything about Alchemist21's meta?

Not really but I can ask. Unfortunately, all of us got hit with crap this week and we're just now getting active again.

[BipolarChemist]

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

I've had 2 scum games on this site and Egg was in neither. Can I get something more in depth on this?

I didn't like BPC attacking me out of nowhere based solely on the fact that he saw other people doing the same thing, but my team (mostly sthar8) seems to think BPC is town. the only game with him that I remember was the lover game where we were scum together and he was super nervous about shit because ceph was in the game. I'm fine trusting my team on this one as a) I don’t have the meta and b) the meta I do have doesn't match so far.

I feel like this is not a good representation of my early post thinking you were scummier. You had a few views on the game that I did not agree with and I was getting vibes that other people were picking up on that too. My early read on you was not based off of just others.

[Alchemist21]

Not sure who you want to corroborate that other than myself. You can check my wiki page and see my game record if you want.

I mean, it'd be much easier if someone who's played with you several times could just go, "Yeah, I've seen him play, and he sucks as scum despite liking it more. He'd

totally

pick town here." I'd much rather not read all your games. Because otherwise, there's a good chance you lied about your token use here.

On that note, ETL, did your teammates mention anything about Alchemist21's meta?

Mina can you answer my meta question about BBMolla please?

Sorry, I got distracted. I think BBmolla tends to be really unconcerned with appearances, loose in his postin, and kind of flippant when he's town. He's aware of this to a certain degree as scum (why he only posts walls in games with alts or where no one knows him), which is why I didn't unvote until he looked like he had conviction in what he was saying. To be honest, I'm probably not overthinking this read all that much, because my entire team is in agreement he's obvtown. (There's a secret tell someone on our team has on him, but it hasn't been triggered yet.)

Ok, that's about what I saw in Sabotage (his tone was a lot more polite there; here he doesn't seem to care about pissing people off). If he's aware of it the point's kinda null.

Also, I didn't expect you to do a full meta dive, just look at the table on my page and my overall record.

Your first three posts are literally nothing

Like good luck deflecting onto me, not my fault you fucking obv scummed in the first two pages.

I pointed out a number of other posts in my 229 of Alchemist deflecting. Just scroll down to the spoiler

I think it is generally something beneficial for scum to do, especially if they are deflecting onto town. They're thought process is probably "If I say hey you've been doing this to a town person, then they'll have to reflect and think oh well that might be more of a town action than scum". Like this thought process is obviously flawed when some things are either null, not really matching up, etc. I am interested in analyzing Alchy's deflection posts for this reason (I'm not doing now because I'm lazy and behind).

1) serrapaladin is now in my pool by PoE, since I have reasons to like most of the player list. He

could

be scum, basically.
3) Yep, I had an instinctive gut town read on him based on one post that I liked felt like trying. Why do you find that so out of the ordinary?
5) The game started yesterday, and so far, our conflicting schedules, time zones, and sleep patterns mean we've rarely been online at the same time--and when we have, they'll go, "hang on, I want to focus on this game first." As a result, our conversations about Twin Trap haven't really become a dialogue yet. (E.g., Regfan's reads were messages on Skype I saw after he'd gone to bed). Actually, I like that you made the observation about lack of discussion, since it's true so far, but it'll probably change soon

if Empire ever gets back to me about why he town reads you instead of putting it off to watch

The Walking Dead

HEY EMPIRE THIS IS A TEST ARE YOU READING THIS GAME YOU LAZY FUCKER?

6) I don't know, I get why an outsider might dislike it, but I much prefer being transparent and sharing this kind of inter-team stuff, particularly since, e.g., I don't feel comfortable pushing a you-wagon when half my team is against it. (I mostly mentioned the Regfan reads as pressure on Quilford, though.) And frankly, I suspect that people value their opinions more than mine, so I feel compelled to share them.

However, that was at least an improvement, so I'd thank you if you weren't messing with my biases and making the game harder.

1) + 3) I've never been a big fan of this logic. Like I can understand breaking it down to a few people by liking others, but I feel like that causes some to be ignored when looking at the game. Anyways, I'm still really disliking your early townread on Serra and feel like there was no basis for it, despite reasons you gave. An instinctive gut town read just feels like a cop out from properly trying to read into someone.
5) I can understand full discussion not happening yet, especially with so many games on the go, but that shouldn't stop you from laying down a question in your confessional. It was a over a full day later when you made this post after you said "Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo." Have you tried further discussion with them on that?
6) Opinions generally have an explanation, so my last question stands!

I actually don't know if I've played with BPC

I think I literally just assumed BPC was DV

:I

Is there a reason nobody wants to talk about/to me?

When I read posts, I'm looking for someone's reasonings behind things. You don't have this. I shouulddd be pressuring you for the reasonings, but I've been focused elsewhere!

RE BPC and Mina:

I get Town for both of these players. When BPC voted Mina, BBT told me he got Town vibes from him for not putting me at L-1. BPC's posts was set up so he could switch to me any time he wanted, but since then he's gone down the Mina path of interaction, so I'm pretty sure he's Town that's trying to get a good handle on the game.

I feel similarly about Mina. She didn't move to put me at L-1 just yet which she could have easily done by now. Her stream of conscious post was weird in that she picked at some pretty small and insignificant posts as what she liked/disliked, but the overall thought process she showed seems Town to me. BBT got scumvibes from her latest posts, but he's in agreement with me that a Quilford/Mina team doesn't make sense.

A couple things! Is not putting someone at L-1 a town thing to do? What if scum just don't want to drag attention to themselves?

I think ruling out pairings or ceasing looking into a player because they don't make sense with your current biggest scumread makes just doesn't make too much sense. I mean it's good to theorize pairings, but don't just write people off...

Titus said she feels like Quilford is the watch-immune goon and the scumteam wants him protected at all costs. It's part of why she's hard scumreading Molla because she thought his push on me was as a defense of Quilford.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Can you get clarification from her on why she thinks this?

I can't read wallposters

Cause I don't read wallposts

I'm not even gonna blame you. Wallpost reading sucks. (he says in a wall)

We're pretty sure if Quilford is scum he's latching onto Mina here. I figured the people not putting me at L-1 when they easily could have were indicative of Town not wanting to rush the Day's end.

Also, Titus is heavily into setup spec and thought Molla's push on me, coming at around the same time I started pushing Quilford, was scumMolla defending scumQuilford. She thinks the watch-immune goon would be protected by the scumteam at all costs, and she thought Molla wanted all pressure off of Quilford. I think she still thinks this, but BBT and I are both disagreeing with her there.

[BipolarChemist]

You dont have to quote my whole monstrosity

I think in this level of game, scum are not gonna try to rush day, or at least in any obvious way like putting someone at L-1. At the very least, I wouldn't do it. (K I'll stop making an argument against your town points for me now )

Why think watch-immune is more important over track-immune?

[BipolarChemist]

Also I was supposed to post this, but I'm a bad person who didn't.



Look at all this sweetness, bitches! It makes you sick doesn't it

[BBmolla]

ETL's post is gross

[Mina]

Ugh, I've lost my old talent for wall-posting. This is taking me forever, and I still have others to write.

5) I can understand full discussion not happening yet, especially with so many games on the go, but that shouldn't stop you from laying down a question in your confessional. It was a over a full day later when you made this post after you said "Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo." Have you tried further discussion with them on that?

I've talked with Regfan since then (not Empire--still waiting to see if he ever notices I made fun of him!). Apparently, you're his top town read--to summarize the reasons he gave in the PT:
-He likes that you consider the difference between alignment-relevant and bad play here.
-He likes your reaction to my early push and found your explanation for the Quilford read plausible.
-He thought this felt genuine (in particular, the part about an uneasy feeling about me in your PT).
-He likes that you're questioning my Quilford town read, because

he

would be questioning it if he weren't in the game even though he wouldn't suspect me for it. (Regfan has not been happy at all about said read.)
-He likes that you pointed out the lack of communication between us.

Zar also townread you (I think it was because he liked your reaction to serrapaladin much earlier--the specifics are buried somewhere in the enormous Skype logs).

I'm nowhere near as confident, since I think competent scum can fake plausible cases and reads. But I do feel better about you given that the ETL read didn't completely come out of nowhere, and also that some of your posts weren't that fence-sitting in context. (E.g., "This can go either way though. Scum treating a player as town because they know they're town, Town treating a player as an initial read to get things going. It's pretty much WIFOM at this stage!" At the time, I was like, "This is complete wishy-washy filler about Mara--ooh, she could be scum, or she could be town!" but I realized a couple of nights ago your point was that ETL was pushing a WIFOM argument and I felt dumb.) Also, I'm in the same boat as ETL where I'm not interested in pushing someone my teammates are unanimously townreading.

[Alchemist21]

You dont have to quote my whole monstrosity

I think in this level of game, scum are not gonna try to rush day, or at least in any obvious way like putting someone at L-1. At the very least, I wouldn't do it. (K I'll stop making an argument against your town points for me now )

Why think watch-immune is more important over track-immune?

Because if watch-immune goon gets lynched, the tracker becomes a named Townie, and if they claim they become confTown and watcher can camp on them.

(Originally, Titus had a whole plan of what Town should do if watch-immune goon gets lynched, but it had a serious flaw - she forgot the other goon was track-immune and had the tracker clearing VT's after the flip. She thought the possibility of having so many confTowns at lylo was why scum wanted watch-immune goon protected.)

Despite that flaw, watcher is still a stronger PR than tracker, so watch-immune goon is the stronger scum-PR.

[Mina]

ETL's post is gross

Do you mind explaining why? We got the exact opposite impression.

[Mina]

By the way, can people let me know if I'm spamming too much or walling too much? I'm aware that this is somewhat content-dense for a nine-player game, and I don't want to make this too hard to catch up on.

[BipolarChemist]

I'm nowhere near as confident, since I think competent scum can fake plausible cases and reads. But I do feel better about you given that the ETL read didn't completely come out of nowhere, and also that some of your posts weren't that fence-sitting in context. (E.g., "This can go either way though. Scum treating a player as town because they know they're town, Town treating a player as an initial read to get things going. It's pretty much WIFOM at this stage!" At the time, I was like, "This is complete wishy-washy filler about Mara--ooh, she could be scum, or she could be town!" but I realized a couple of nights ago your point was that ETL was pushing a WIFOM argument and I felt dumb.) Also, I'm in the same boat as ETL where I'm not interested in pushing someone my teammates are unanimously townreading.

I don't think I'm very competent scum I've had two games and my tactic was lurk to shit.

I feel like Mara has been thrown a bit to the wayside in the past bit of this game, and I don't think I understand her reads nor do I know how to ask about them. What do you think on her right now?

[Mina]

@BPC: This:

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

Also, I mostly liked her RVS posts. So overall, weak town? There are a bunch of people I like more than her.

TBH, right now, I think Quilford is about as likely to be scum as Mara is. (I want this on the record, in the unlikely event I die and someone goes, "Ooh, Quilford wouldn't have posted on D1.") I think he'd be a really awful lynch for today, because his alignment will become really clear soon. But don't let him coast on, "Look, I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town!" Eventually, he'll scumhunt more organically.

[Mina]

*scumhunt organically if he's town. Organically is probably the wrong word, actually. I wish I was allowed to edit posts.

[BBmolla]

ETL's post is gross

Do you mind explaining why? We got the exact opposite impression.

I felt it was super non-commital and robotic.

[BBmolla]

Why'd you guys like it?

[Alchemist21]

Molla, what do you think of Mara?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

ETL's post is gross

Do you mind explaining why? We got the exact opposite impression.

I felt it was super non-commital and robotic.

your mom is gross. how on earth can "really like mina and quil" and "really dont like alchemist and bpc" be non-committal?

[BBmolla]

I was referring mostly to your read on me tbh

[BBmolla]

Molla, what do you think of Mara?

silly reads. Still figuring out if cause scum or otherwise.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I was referring mostly to your read on me tbh

and you wonder why i'm not fucking sure about you? you go around going "this entire post is gross" and then "oh i was just talking about that one part."

not to mention....

when have i ever been sure about you? when have i ever trusted myself to read you? when has doing so ever worked out? i specifically stated i wanted to get with my team on it because you're all kinds of wtf all the time. how is this any different from any other time i've tried to read you?

[Mina]

@mina:
You're picking at the grammatical difference between "I'm not sure either Patrick or BB are scum" and "I'm fairly certain Patrick and BB are not both scum", which is silly.

Not even close. I thought you were going for "I'm not sure Mara was right on Alchemist21 being town", which conflicted with ALCHEMISTISTEHSCUMZORZ attitude in the rest of your post. Fair enough if you meant her other reads...but where in hell did the idea that I was picking at a grammatical difference come from?

I didn't say the points against you are interesting, I said I like them a lot, which is tantamount to agreeing with them. You slipping in the word "interesting" is a bit of a misrep. I may not have drawn points against you to a conclusion, but your characterisation of my stance against you is false. Regarding quil: my team and I think your read on Quil is correct independent of your alignment, but I think your justification reflects a lack of thought about the context of the game.

I feel you're trying to twist my words more than engaging with the actual content of my post.

I feel you're nitpicking a tad. Well, yes, if you picked up on the subtle undertones there...duh. Right now, I think you're very likely to be scum here. Both by PoE, and by your-catchup-post-now-was-kind-of-scummy. There might have been a vote in that post if I wasn't allergic to stances, and also kind of paranoid it might create a counterwagon to Alchemist that would wind up saving OBVSCUM through an EASY TOWN MISLYNCH and make everyone hate me. So I was trying to push you so I'd get more information, but it definitely came across in my tone that I found you suspicious.

But don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a misrep? "Interesting" was paraphrasing, but the general vibe I got was "I'm looking sideways at you since there are 'points' agaisnt you but not really doing anything about it." Kind of what I disliked about BPC at first in RVS. This seems like a semantics debate.

What do you think of BPC now?

(Yes, I know we're sort of attacking each other for similar things here. The difference is I'm obviously town and can do whatever I want! ^_^ Neener neener.)

[EspeciallyTheLies]

mina what is your experience with the player list?

[Quilford]

@Quilford, Except you are obviously aware of your own meta, and have argued it multiple times. It's dead null.

Just because someone's aware of their own meta doesn't mean it suddenly isn't applicable, lol

[EspeciallyTheLies]

i ask because it seems like you are very meta-oriented, and i want to get a handle on your perspective.