NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[LimMePls]

Unvote
UnFOS
Vote: nhammen
FOS: Chronopie

nhammen that is L-2, I think its claim time.

[SGRaaize]

I think the current Wagon on DrRobotnik is useless, I don't find him suspicious at all

compared to the guys inside the supposed mason group aside from Seraphim

Vote: Daniel94581

Bolded: Why? (or rather, what do you think of the accusations against him?)
@daniel vote: Why daniel over vezo?

I think the Dr. Robotnik wagon is actually pretty awesome.

@Dry-fit

, who on the wagon is suspicious?

I don't disagree with Lowell accusing Sevis tbh. I keep getting the impression of an experienced player holding way way way back.

Because he's getting lynched because of his suspicions on two guys of the Mason group...

And about Daniel over Vezo, they're both equally suspicious, IMO

[SGRaaize]

Well, I'm honoured to be considered an experienced player, but this really is confusing me rather horribly. I meant that I was trying to keep up a minimal number of posts because for one, I'm quite happy to read threads while they're moving and only post when I have nothing more to read, and, more importantly, I'm currently swamped with schoolwork, so I'm not checking this 24/7 as I normally would.

I don't like Dry-fit's comment on LMP -- it's as if the general opinion on LMP is that he's town, while this clearly isn't the case. In general, the aggressiveness against LMP doesn't look too good.
I'm curious about LMP's explanation of vezo's actions. He seems to be aware that vezo can know his alignment and he can know vezo's, does not feel like vezo is scum, and none the less, vezo is attacking him. I'm currently leaning towards a pair of lovers, as a mason in two groups seems unlikely. Vezo also claimed either Seraphim or daniel are scum: I'm getting the impression he feels that he needs to get rid of allies. Hm. Is he afraid that the extra opportunities to chat will give extra possibilities for him to make a scumslip?
SGRaaize's post looks strange, too. He's not taking into account that daniel's slips could be related to his (highly likely) role of mason. On the other hand, he is fully acknowledging their mason status, and brings it up at every opportunity, as if it had anything to do with his reasons for wanting to lynch them.
Reading ISOs, I'm getting the feeling the mason group is receiving far too much attention. Dr. Robotnik is, indeed, rather inactive, but I don't think I want to see him lynched. Chronopie and Midnight have hardly given all that much info, either. I can see the point in pressuring him to participate, though.
I'd like to hear more from pman.

If you think I could do more, please do suggest, but I think you are overestimating me by far.

The fact that they're a mason and are attacking each other is the reason why I think they're both suspicious
Isn't it weird that they attack each other, even though they're partners? Isn't it also weird that they took a long time to even mention being Mason after Seraphim claimed it?
I can't help but see two VI's in mafia and Seraphim risking it, or maybe one werewolf wanting to sacrifice the other to get credibility.
The reason why I don't want to vote Seraphim is that he doesn't seem to be suspicious, so my line of thought is:

1) We lynch Daniel/Vezo
2) They town, oops
3) They mafia/werewolves, the other two go

@foilist 300: Maybe it's my experience from the Rocissi games, but you are missing something obvious, and your post makes no sense.

I will take the 6)answer: Something you didn't talk about.

Seraphim claimed for whatever stupid reason he had.
I'll

Unvote
Vote daniel94581

If anyone has anything to gain from a mason dying, it would be a non-town-aligned mason. Regardless, daniel looks by far the most town of the three to me.

fos vez

Lowell, what you don't understand (but would if you had ISOed vezo AT ALL) is that vezo believes that since the Masons are not confirmed non-Werewolf, one of them must be a Werewolf. This is a bad assumption of his, but you can clearly see that this is his assumption in all of his posts. His information on LMP on the other hand, I have no idea. But it doesn NOT need to be revealed at this time.

Unvote

I like foilist13's posts on the matter of vezopiraka and daniel. 300 brings up an interesting point, but I don't think it applies in this case -- to be blunt, I do not feel daniel thought things through anywhere near as far as that. It also does not seem likely that people in a scumteam would be accusing each other (except to bus... but it would be Seraphim doing that, not vezopiraka). For now, I believe Seraphim's claim.

Leafsnail's ISO looks fine to me.

I was expecting vezopiraka's attack on LMP to be an attempt to push a lynch for his main suspect. This version doesn't work if LMP has some sort of information on vezopiraka, though.

SGRaaize's second post looks very unusual to me. He's on the fence with SSBF, `curious' about the matter but not doing any questioning. He's also not been too clear about accusing Parama and Lowell.

Vote: SGRaaize

I simply found SSBF way too tense, I don't suspect him lol

Parama has been completely insane and weird in his arguments against SSBF, trying to force a lynch somehow, very scummy IMO

So defensive after one vote?? And still sitting on that fence. I actually agree with Sevis here.

@foilist 328: STOP ROLEFISHING!

vote foilist

@Chrono 331: Lowell 332 says all I need to say about that.

@foilist 347: STOP ROLEFISHING!!!!!!

@Serial 350: I HIGHLY disagree about foilist being Town. He has a old enough join date that he should know how bad rolefishing is. And I'm right here. It's only been 2 days.

@askbob 364: Please scumhunt instead of commenting on the Mason stuff. And for your info, Seraph's play was the right play.

@Dry-fit 365: Sit on that fence some more please.

@SGR 370: If I didn't think foilist was scum I would be totally coming after you.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING

FOS: Chrono

foilist, SGR, and robotnik are the current scummiest players IMO.

I am always defensive, I don't like misunderstandings, accumulated misunderstandings always result in a lynch, it would be far worse if I tried to correct all of you when I was at L-3

The Goat and Dr. Robotnik still haven't done anything to make me think they're something other than scum, so etc. ChronoCircleConstant could go either way tbh.

What were your original reasons on these two? I must've missed them. I probably did, tbh, since I haven't been giving this game enough attention since you guys aren't lynching SSBF.

WOW.

I just looked and I was totally confusing this game with another one. My bad. Sigh.

I have no idea whether scum can daytalk or not, but I can understand that looks badly like a slip. Zzzzzz.

For future reference, this is an extreme moment of derpiness, not a scumslip. I have these moments often for I fail.

I do agree that if one of the masons flips werewolf, we should (probably, depends on circumstances) lynch another to make sure they're not a scumteam.

Let's line up lynches based on something we can't confirm? No. Also, Seraphim would've been a complete idiot to out his entire scumteam like that - he's linked to the two as masons now. If one of them flips mason then the other two can't be lying, though it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't werewolves. But nonetheless we're not lynching a mason today.

In my opinion, we shouldn't pay much attention to the mason grouping alone, because they could be werewolves, and that is as likely as anything. So I think attacking masons is warranted, but it can't be because they are masons.

Your logic makes no sense. There is no good reason to lynch a claimed mason, especially on D1. If they're lying the other scumgroup will end up shooting at them eventually, anyways.

Hmm... Dr. Robotnik's continued push on a mason lynch does look rather scummy, I admit. Could be mafia trying to get a mason/werewolf lynch or a werewolf trying to push a lynch on a mason, either seems possible. I wouldn't mind voting him...

But I like my vote better. So

FoS: Dr. Robotnik

for now.
But, now that I think about it, there's another vote I like even better than both.

unvote, vote: SGRaaize

SGRaaize is doing the same thing as Robotnik, but he's a greater offender in terms of scumtells. His very first vote was on page 15, for a claimed mason. He's doing what Robotnik is doing... but though he's expressed suspicions before, he never acted upon them until now. And the vote is for weaker reasons than in his earlier posts where he didn't vote. If that isn't suspicious I don't what is.

Wait.

Nhammen's post has made everything crystal clear.

So defensive after one vote?? And still sitting on that fence. I actually agree with Sevis here.

This is a good point and a good reason to vote someone... and yet you don't.

@foilist 328: STOP ROLEFISHING!

vote foilist

@foilist 347: STOP ROLEFISHING!!!!!!

Looking at those two posts, they aren't really rolefishing... at all. More rhetorical questions adding to his points. And regardless that's not a good reason to vote.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING

FOS: Chrono

This is genuine rolefishing by Chrono, yet you merely FoS.

foilist, SGR, and robotnik are the current scummiest players IMO.

And not Chrono, for doing the same exact thing you accuse foilist of? Note that foilist isn't really rolefishing though you accuse him of it, while Chrono is.

Guys, I've caught scumbuddies here, can we lynch them?

unvote

Vote: Nhammen

Super Mega HoS: Chronopie

HoS: SGRaaize

HoS: SSBF

FoS: Dr. Robotnik

If there is not a nhammen lynch in the next 24 hours I'm going to scream. Nhammen's post has caught 2 scum.

Well, about the Mason argument, I stated my explanation before.
I can't help but laugh, why would you vote someone and unvote that same guy in the same post?

@nhamen: This vote gets you at L-3. Claim time?

Unvote ;Vote nhamen

You for whatever reason are protecting Cronophie and you are not in a town group from what I know.

My claim:
A lot of people told me to claim.
I'm a monk, mason. I thought from the way the PM was structured that it implies there is a werewolf in the mason group and a mafia in the monk group. From my information I thought the scum from the monk group is lynchmepls. Apparently I was wrong.

Hum... I don't believe that the PM would imply there was a werewolf among you, maybe that it is possible, but would it seriously say "Hey, you have a werewolf in your team of 3, good luck"

Well, Vezo claimed, and since it'll be pretty obvious, I'll go along and do so as well. That way the town will have the info and can make of it what they will. Here is the post I prepared for if the town wanted me to share my info:

Alright, lets clear the air.

I am a monk (functionally the same as a mason). I am one of three. Vezo is one of the other monks. I choose to not disclose the third monks identity at this time.

As a monk, I know that my monk partners ARE NOT werewolves. I do not know if they are mafia or not.

When Vezo started spewing his unbelievable "Lynch is mafia" business, I was initially confused. When he then started accusing daniel, I started to get an idea about where his info was coming from. When Seraph made the claim, all the pieces fell into place. There are essentially two groups that can talk at night. 1 is a mason group that knows each other are not mafia. The other is a monk group that knows each other aren't werewolves. To further complicate things, Vezo is in both.

For some reason, my guess being that Vezo isn't good at logic, Vezo thinks that because he was told "the members of this group can't be werewolves" he thinks that means one of them MUST be mafia. And since he was told that "a member of this mason group can't be mafia" he took that to mean one of them MUST be a werewolf. I'll give you all a moment to digest this appalling use of logic. For some of us who are logic challenged, I'll use this example. X can belong to the group A, B, or C. You are told X is not A. Does that mean X is B??? Clearly not.

Now, for whatever reason, he decided that between me and the other member of our group, I must be the mafioso.

What does this tell us: First and foremost, since no one in Seraph's group can be mafia, and no one in my group can be werewolf, and Vezo is in both, VEZO IS CONFIRMED TOWN. PLEASE STOP TRYING TO LYNCH HIM. It also tells us that Vezo's logic isn't very sharp, and we should be careful with any conclusions he draws from information. (I don't mean to be rude, this is just a fact). Lastly, the possibility does exist that Seraph, daniel, and MonkX are scum, though they can only belong to a specific faction.

I'm pretty sure Vezo completely wrecked the usefulness of the Monk and Mason groups. I think at this point, the best way to salvage the situation is to confirm a townie, and get us back on track hunting for scum amongst the rest of the game. This explains why I said that of the three masons, daniel is the most likely to be scum, but I wanted to be clear I didn't mean that daniel IS scummy. I think Seraph's claim only makes sense if he is not a mason/werewolf. If he were a mason/werewolf he would have been happy to let the whole thing continue spiraling out of control.

Holy crap, what?
Well, alright, nevermind anything I said above, I doubt that LynchmePls is also a Mafia or a Werewolf, I'l just let the previous post be to explain why I suspected the Mason guys

Unvote

Vezo is screwed now, the Mafia would be dumb not to lynch a 100% confirmed town, I suggest protection on him, assuming we wanna keep him, of course (why wouldn't we?)

[SGRaaize]

Also, about the whole Nhammen thing, it is indeed very suspicious, him ignoring Chronopie and whatnot, I would vote lynch him, but I'd like him to claim, I'm very careful about vote lynches in that aspect.

[Pomegranate]

Catching up from page... 11, I think. Or something.

[nhammen]

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Your main points are absolute crap! I try to disprove and nobody thinks these arguments are any good. Have you ever tried to argue with a Creationist? Same thing. Or at least it feels that way to me. But maybe that is my viewpoint.

It seems it is time for me to claim. I am a

roleblocker

. And I would also make claims about the intelligence of the people on this wagon, but I think that would be against the site rules.

Also, the vezo info was obvious to anybody that was paying any attention at all. And I would have preferred that there was no claim, so that no matter what LMPs alignment, the Werewolves would think he is Cop and would kill someone that is only partially confirmed rather than someone that is completely confirmed.

Well, now what?

[Vi]

nhammen, who is scum?

[Pomegranate]

Pages 11-15

So why are you voting randomly, if the pregame should definitely be enough to get some real reads. You have a scum read on Parama, why didn't you vote on it?

At the time, I wasn't really certain that Parama was scum. As a result, I wasn't prepared to place a serious vote. However, his scum bar increased and I finally decided to move my vote toward him.

So you only vote players that you are

certain

are scum? (The way I play, unless it's RVS or something, you vote whichever player is scummiest, even if it's not

that

scummy, because scummiest=more likely to be scum than any other player, at least in my book.)

--

I explained because my masonmates were being retarded. It seemed required to claim.

Also, I just found out from the mod that it's possible that my masonmates might be werewolves.

Great. So much for confirmed town.

Explain this.

The whole point of "Mason" and not "Neighbor" is the whole confirmed town part.

Request clarification from mod?

He already got clarification. Masons are not always confirmed. I was a part of a masonry as mafia once. It's likely called a masonry here because they are all confirmed non-mafia.

--

You have an inside source. This doesn't imply that it was simply stated in your role pm. Ok, possibilities.

1) You are a cop who can differentiate between mafia and werewolves, and can investigate N0.
2) You are a cop who can differentiate between mafia and werewolves and can investigate during the day.
3) You have a role relationship with lynchmepls, i.e. lovers.
4) You are a werewolf and able to detect mafia. (This is assuming you mean scum as part of that scum team, and therefore not mafia)
5) You're a lying scumbag.
6) Something I didn't think of.

He could be some sort of werewolf cop- that seems most likely to me. Innocent on Mafia and town, Guilty on Werewolf, or something like that.

--

Thus, as I've said twice already,

IF

there is scum among the masons, I think it is daniel. That DOES NOT mean I'm saying daniel is scummy. Do you have a hard time understanding the distinction?

But it

does

mean that daniel is (at least) slightly scummier than vezo and Seraphim (to you).

--

I think people are massively overreacting to the masons inter-voting. The fact is thy aren't confirmed town and so a vote on them is reasonable. You just have to be aware you've only got 50% of the chance you'd have on anyone else. I don't recommend a mason lynch, but if one of them thinks his partner is scum, why shouldn't he vote him?

QFT. If you think that one of them is scum, the fact that he is a mason shouldn't stop you from voting him.

--

@all people who at one time voted daniel {Dr. Robotnik, Leafsnail, Sevis}:

Why did you vote daniel over vezo?

Because daniel was being a pain, and he really needed the pressure.

--

I don't disagree with Lowell accusing Sevis tbh. I keep getting the impression of an experienced player holding way way way back.

Oddly, I do too. IIRC, at the beginning of the game I said I liked his play. But I don't feel like there's that much coming, even if he has a lot more to say (or to not say).

[nhammen]

nhammen, who is scum?

Ugh! I don't know any more. I still feel like SGR is scum. My suspicions of foilist have decreased, because we were operating under different assumptions:
my assumption-non of the Masons should be lynched, LMP should not be lynched because he is claiming a type of role (specifics don't matter at this time)
his assumption-vezo had a "guilty" on LMP we should determine whether to follow this.
My assumption was based around the presumption of innocence and his around the guilt. Or at least after rereading, that is the way I see it.

unvote

The wagon on me HAS to be scum driven. There is no way there could be this many mistakes unless there is a scum pushing them. I hope that Parama is scum. Otherwise he is... I really shouldn't say what I was about to say. I had a Town read on Serial. His defense of Parama bothers me, but my Town read is still there. I agree with the arguments that Chrono's "I agree" vote looks bad. Seraphim is Mason, so I am going with the probabilistic approach and saying more likely to be town. Your hop on the wagon gives Town points. Dry-fit's does not as much, but still not too bad. And pman's looks really bad. I would also be bothered by Lowell's similar, if I hadn't seen him do the same so many times. sevis' 430 agrees with my case and then votes me. Does not compute... midnight is either scum buddying to me or smart Town, and I'm leaning toward the latter for now. And then we get 2 Monks on the wagon.

So, who is scummy on the wagon?
Parama
Chrono
pman
sevis

Who is scummy off the wagon?
SGRaaize
robotnik
askbob

I don't even remember anything about Timeater or Goat. Both have lurked heavily.

SO that's 9 players all told. My guess is 3 on each scum-team. So 3 have to be removed. Not sure which. But I know where I'm putting my vote.

vote SGRaaize

See previous case.

[vezopiraka]

All of you lets lynch nhammen. Every town roleblocker claim I saw was just the scum roleblocker. My vote stands.

[vezopiraka]

EBDWOP: He doesn't say he's town. He just says he's a roleblocker .

[Vi]

The wagon on me HAS to be scum driven. There is no way there could be this many mistakes unless there is a scum pushing them.

I doubt considerably that this wagon is scum-driven, at least at the beginning.
This may come as difficult to believe, but it's not implausible that a lot of Townies find you scummy for reasons you {don't/don't claim to} understand.

As it stands, why SGRaaize over the others?

@vezo: I can't say I have the same experience.

[SGRaaize]

This is what I get for being friendly to nhammen, heh
Anyways, I already defended myself regarding your accusations, no point in repeating myself.
TBH, I still suspect you and, although its true that there are town roleblockers, there are usually more scum blockers (in my experience, lol), but I feel like the few guys who suspect me would suspect me even more if I tried to "quick hammer" you, and even those who don't think I'm scum would think I'm voting you purely because you are voting me

Meh, not worth it

[nhammen]

Because I was suspicions of him before this whole mess started... That seems a good place to leave my vote for now while I read up on everyone that I listed in that post. Well, except robotnik, Timeater, and Goat... nothing to read up on there. Too much lurking.

[nhammen]

Actually add pman to the group of lurkers...

[LimMePls]

Why is it important for you to point out the lurkers? Any of us that are paying attention know who the lurkers are.

I'm convinced of my vote. Pretty sure this is gonna flip scum roleblocker. Pointing out lurkers in a flailing attempt to deflect the inevitable lynch is also suspicious.

I will say that SGR is acting pretty scummy.

[Sevis]

Vi, could you please point out why exactly my vote for nhammen was scummy?

[Midnight's Sorrow]

And if nhammen flips Town Roleblocker???

The one to hammer will surely die next day phase.

[Vi]

Interesting finds, both nhammen and Parama. Now that I re-read foilist's posts, he does seem to be rolefishing quite a bit: previously, I took this for him just trying to make sense of the game. I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet.

Vezo really is contributing far less to the game than he could be, hinting at the role without any clarification only helps scum, as far as I can see.

The speed with which Chronopie jumped on the nhammen wagon does surprise me -- he seems to be hoping to put the focus away from him and thus be forgotten. This doesn't look like very pro-town play to me. I also have to agree that his attempts at rolefishing would cause more harm if they were successful (I see LMP's role and knowledge to currently be of more importance than vezo's).

FOS: Chronopie

Unvote; Vote: nhammen

Not only do you never mention anything about whether the nhammen wagon is

good

, you actually

compliment and agree with him

in the bolded.
Not a particularly intuitive way to put yourself ninth on the wagon... Especially since if you didn't know your vote was horrible, you didn't do it on purpose like someone fishing for reactions/pressure would... which means that you intended to lynch nhammen with this post as reasoning.

Unvote: nhammen

Vote: Sevis

(L-12)

I'm fine with assuming nhammen-Town for the time being.

[Vi]

Also, this post is ruining

Timeater's

fun by pointing out that the Eater of Tims has posted onsite within the last fifteen minutes, but is woefully absent ITT.

[LimMePls]

And if nhammen flips Town Roleblocker???

The one to hammer will surely die next day phase.

Am I the only one who thinks this post is incredibly scummy? Eager to setup a day 2 mislynch MS?

[Midnight's Sorrow]

okay...anyone care to explain the acronyms ITT and IIRC??? I whole-fully ignorant of these things sometimes

[Midnight's Sorrow]

I'm not eager to set up one

I'm just wondering why some of you think he could be a Scum Roleblocker. Those are (To my knowledge) in newb games here mostly. Besides that, he hasn't really acted all that scummy in my eyes.

What *Player* thinks is scummy =/= What Midnight thinks is scummy

I can't see what you people see when you voted him. Just can't. While they weren't exactly

baseless

, they just didn't sit well with me as a reason.

[LimMePls]

IIRC = If I recall correctly
ITT = In this thread (I'm guessing on this one).

http://www.muller-godschalk.com/acronyms.html#I should help with most, although ITT wasn't in there.

[Sevis]

Yes, I was and still am not sure my reasoning is all too good. I agree with parts of the case nhammen built, but ``I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet.''. nhammen has made me look at the situation from a new direction, but I didn't find that new perspective impressive enough to give me a town read on him. Thus, I saw the countercase presented by Parama and found it much more convincing. It was certainly better than the read I had on SGRaaize. I find that a wagon right now will probably not lead to a lynch, but will add a lot to the structure of the game, which will make it easier to take a look at everyone and understand the situation better. Thus: I did not and do not see my vote as making me `obvscum', but do see it having rather poor reasoning -- not the worst on the wagon, but of a lower standard than I would normally put out.