LOLhammering

[T-Bone]

I see your point, but if we move to a primarily gut-based method, then all you get is "I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT" and everything is yelly and terrible and not fun forever

The major problem I have with cases is that they tend to try and look at the aggregate of a player's posting history. The aggregate of a player's posting history is usually heavily dependent on the player's strength in Mafia - for example, Furcolow v. Hito, you'll tend to lynch Furcolow over Hito regardless of their alignment.

It's better to focus on one or two posts, and jump immediately. It's also not necessary to immediately make a case, because often that derails pressure - three votes in quick succession if all three people see the same thing puts a LOT of pressure on a player.

Gut based voting is pretty terrible overall, but there's a lot of scumhunting that looks like "gut" to people who want a 12 point list.

Not every post in an ISO is scummy. When players make cases they try to find scumminess in every single post...and if you are looking for it, you'll find it.

Making up rules to try and police bad play is terrible modding at best and completely unfair to anti-town factions at the worst. If I'm scum I love when someone quick hammers town, because now everyone can shut the fuck up and not catch me this day phase.

[choof]

I'm saying that encouraging a dumbed-down style of play where everyone just goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" but never is held accountable for

why

hypothetical post #404 is actually scummy is analogous to the growing anti-intellectualism movement in America and elsewhere in society.

*farts*

[Psyche]

I really dodged a snark bullet there.

[Muffin]

I'm saying that encouraging a dumbed-down style of play where everyone just goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" but never is held accountable for why hypothetical post #404 is actually scummy is analogous to the growing anti-intellectualism movement in America and elsewhere in society.

I have a nominee for the most pretentious post in the history of mafiascum.

I suppose you're right, but oh well.

[Muffin]

When someone has a gut read and you tell them to pretend that it's not a gut read so that you can read them more easily (which is what your anti-gut position does),

No what I'm saying is that they can have their gut read, but if they produce mostly gut reads and no lucid cases or logic, then they should not expect to be viewed as town, and other players should not read this as town. It should be viewed as null (at best).

you're telling them to lie about the basis of their read and hoping to pull out a idea of their alliance from it. I think that's really silly.

I'm really not telling anyone to lie about anything. If a player really truly can only come up with gut reads and is incapable (not simply unwilling) to form a single coherent case then okay, but I think we both agree that players like this are extremely rare (or are newbies, but that doesn't count).

------

The idea that players are undiscernable black boxes when they justify their votes with a gut read is false.

Suppose I hammer town based on "gut". Then I vote scum the next day based on "gut". Then D3 I vote town also based on "gut". How can you begin to probe at my alignment? I don't see any way that I can be held accountable to anything if all I have to do is say it was a gut read.

The idea that players are miles better scumhunters when they use what you characterize as logic to motivate their votes is false.

I agree with this. But I contend that players should use logic to justify votes so that others can better read the voter.

The idea that players (like titus) should accrue townreads because they post plausible-sounding cases from time to time is also false.

I also agree with this.

The idea that gut readers cannot coherently communicate and advocate for the wagons they lead is false.

This idea was proposed by someone else in thread, I forget who, but not by me.

The idea that people who predominantly use gut reads are "inane" and people who don't are superior players - well that's just in bad taste.

I agree with this, also. What I said was that statements like "#123 is p town" are inane, not the players. I also said that superior communicators are superior players. I said this in response to someone (you?) who said that if the game is based on logic then the best communicators win. I believe the best communicators will always win because mafia is fundamentally a game of persuasion. Trying to make the game less about the best communicators winning is silly.

[Flubbernugget]

What exactly is a case? I thought it was just reasoning behind someone being scum, which would include gut reads.

[Muffin]

What exactly is a case? I thought it was just reasoning behind someone being scum, which would include gut reads.

But a gut read is just the lack of a reason.

"He's scum."
"For what reason?"
"He just

is

."

That's not a case IMHO.

[Aeronaut]

Here's my take on it.

Of course "Cases are scummy" is a stupid part of our meta. However, if a case is overexplained or seems out of place, I'm going to see that as scummy and I think that's where it really stems from. It's a similar deal with "He's scum" reads; Some player simple do play off their gut and don't have an answer for their view at that moment. However, if the player spends the whole game only gutreading people and randomly voting people for no good reason, then that's the time to stop giving them credibility.

[Muffin]

Some player simple do play off their gut and don't have an answer for their view at that moment. However, if the player spends the whole game only gutreading people and randomly voting people for no good reason, then that's the time to stop giving them credibility.

+1

Unfortunately my experience in recent games has been that people just keep giving those players towncred because "cases are scummy".

[zMuffinMan]

Can you give examples of this town cred being handed out for that reason?

Because I'm pretty sure you're not taking into account other factors.

Unless your argument is simply that you don't like when people play like that and you don't like when others from a town read on players while they're playing like that... In which case, learn to deal with it. Short of abducting them and torturing them until they learn that mafia isn't a game, I don't see what complaining about it is going to do. Blacklist or PL.

[Muffin]

Can you give examples of this town cred being handed out for that reason?

I have already.

Because I'm pretty sure you're not taking into account other factors.

That's possible but I feel it's unlikely.

Unless your argument is simply that you don't like when people play like that and you don't like when others from a town read on players while they're playing like that... In which case, learn to deal with it. Short of abducting them and torturing them until they learn that mafia isn't a game, I don't see what complaining about it is going to do. Blacklist or PL.

I'm not a "big name" here on MS so my PL attempts don't carry much weight.

My opinion is that the "cases are scummy" side of things is dragging the site meta towards a less-enjoyable state. I don't think I'm alone. I guess I could "learn to deal with it" but obviously I'd rather not have to, just as I'm sure you'd rather not have to deal with changes you perceive as detrimental to enjoyment of one of your hobbies.

[Fluminator]

I'm relatively new to this site, and I honestly can't say I love the site meta here.
I agreed with almost everything Muffin has said. I have a lot more fun in mafia games from other sites at the moment.
(Not dissing the site or anything. I still think the player-base here is largely full of cool people.)

[pirate mollie]

I think lolhammerers beyond d1 shld die in fiery pit of hell.

that is my on topic response to the op.

@ muffin

I had a long conversation with another member on this site about "ballroom mafia" versus "conversationalist mafia" and we agreed "conversationalist mafia" was dominating the site currently which was a sharp swing in the opposite direction of what used to be "ballroom dancing mafia", which sounds like the environment that you are more comfortable in. and how the next site meta shift probably needs to reflect a balance between the 2.

I think I made one iso case a couple of years ago in adventure time mafia on ces for being scum and he turned out to be conftown that same day.

I made 1 case last year with quotes and effort and shit and all 3 players were town.

I don't make cases not because "cases are scummy" but because I am horrifyingly stupidly bad at it.

I do infinitely better in games when I work things out in my own way even tho other pple might not understand them. I mean I try to explain it and to me it seems very simple to understand but what I have come to realize is that it is very similar to speaking a different language. its like if you read oh I do not know, pick a foreign language that you don't know that was written on a chalkboard and how it looks like jumbled letters or characters and it doesn't make sense to you. it is an incoherent mess all smushed together that you don't understand. its why I don't even try explaining how I obtain my reads most of the time cos to me sometimes the nuances of a motivation are like in big neon lights and I sit around wondering how pple can miss it. and when I say big neon lights I am talking about the hesitancy in lynching a claimed scum role blocker or lynching the next day the person who kept insisting that it was mylo cos of another supposed faction and kept trying to save the claimed scum role blocker when the evidence proved otherwise. like I don't get that at all cos there was zero town motivation for that player in that situ.

I do try to explain my reads I just don't think that pple don't always understand what I am saying altho I have tried and sometimes I do get tired and lazy and will call something "gut" when I have a lot more reasons than I do. i don't think I am the only player who feels this way.

so I hear your frustration but I think that there needs to be a meeting place in the middle.

anyways I feel sort of sentimental about you and just wanted to try to offer a varying view.

[N]

it looks like jumbled letters or characters and it doesn't make sense to you

mollieposts

[Porochaz]

This trend really has picked up recently. It's like the new site culture is to worship being fucking stupid and think it's

hilarious

to do dumb shit F4R TEH LULZ LMAO in a game people devote months of time into playing.

I've noticed this hand-in-hand with a "cases are scummy" attitude that discourages lucid thought processes in favour of giving towncred to people who just post shit like "#202 is p town" or "[playername] is scum, VOTE: playername".

Sadly I haven't rolled scum recently, because I feel like I could get away with murder (literally) under this meta.

Yep.

"Cases are scummy" is the worst thing to happen to this site.

people taking 'cases are scummy' literally is pretty shit, yeah

I see your point, but if we move to a primarily gut-based method, then all you get is "I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT" and everything is yelly and terrible and not fun forever

This isn't new though, it is why I pretty much quit playing years ago

[Porochaz]

I see your point, but if we move to a primarily gut-based method, then all you get is "I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT" and everything is yelly and terrible and not fun forever

The major problem I have with cases is that they tend to try and look at the aggregate of a player's posting history. The aggregate of a player's posting history is usually heavily dependent on the player's strength in Mafia - for example, Furcolow v. Hito, you'll tend to lynch Furcolow over Hito regardless of their alignment.

Lynching Frank is always the correct move. Always.

[Muffin]

@ muffin

I had a long conversation with another member on this site about "ballroom mafia" versus "conversationalist mafia" and we agreed "conversationalist mafia" was dominating the site currently which was a sharp swing in the opposite direction of what used to be "ballroom dancing mafia", which sounds like the environment that you are more comfortable in. and how the next site meta shift probably needs to reflect a balance between the 2.

that's a great way of putting it, actually.

I think I made one iso case a couple of years ago in adventure time mafia on ces for being scum and he turned out to be conftown that same day.

I made 1 case last year with quotes and effort and shit and all 3 players were town.

I don't make cases not because "cases are scummy" but because I am horrifyingly stupidly bad at it.

I do infinitely better in games when I work things out in my own way even tho other pple might not understand them. I mean I try to explain it and to me it seems very simple to understand but what I have come to realize is that it is very similar to speaking a different language. its like if you read oh I do not know, pick a foreign language that you don't know that was written on a chalkboard and how it looks like jumbled letters or characters and it doesn't make sense to you. it is an incoherent mess all smushed together that you don't understand. its why I don't even try explaining how I obtain my reads most of the time cos to me sometimes the nuances of a motivation are like in big neon lights and I sit around wondering how pple can miss it. and when I say big neon lights I am talking about the hesitancy in lynching a claimed scum role blocker or lynching the next day the person who kept insisting that it was mylo cos of another supposed faction and kept trying to save the claimed scum role blocker when the evidence proved otherwise. like I don't get that at all cos there was zero town motivation for that player in that situ.

I do try to explain my reads I just don't think that pple don't always understand what I am saying altho I have tried and sometimes I do get tired and lazy and will call something "gut" when I have a lot more reasons than I do. i don't think I am the only player who feels this way.

so I hear your frustration but I think that there needs to be a meeting place in the middle.

anyways I feel sort of sentimental about you and just wanted to try to offer a varying view.

I agree that there needs to be a meeting place in the middle. I've certainly gone with gut instinct on occasion. And mollie, I've played with you enough to know that you aren't what I'm describing/railing against.

If you or anyone else says "I have reasons but don't have energy/time to explain them now, here's my vote" that'd be enough for me in the interim, provided the reasons come out at some point.

[Muffin]

Necropost.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6858724

Won a scum game; took all the things I was complaining about in this thread and played that way. Was widely townread.

[McMenno]

Necropost.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6858724

Won a scum game; took all the things I was complaining about in this thread and played that way. Was widely townread.

I feel like the scumteam could be either Hopkirk/Errant or Muffin/Juls.

I'm betting on Juls/Muffin right now tbh.

[Klick]

The key word there is probably "widely."

[Ankamius]

Just going to add my $0.02.

I am a gut-based player. I almost never have reasoning whenever I initially push someone beyond 'this post looks like it was made by scum more than town'. I'm fairly inconsistent with my reads whenever I go this route, but I find that I get nightkilled more often and start to fall victim to attempts to shut me down. Alternatively, the more open and transparent I am with my thoughts, the less of a threat I end up being seen by scum. I can think of two games where I was heavily transparent in a town game; League of Legends mafia where I was killed along with three other town right before LyLo, and YCBA2 where I was lynched on day 10. Town continued to lynch wrong on day 11 for a town lose.

Whenever I end up playing low-information and only airing out my thoughts when I feel I have to, I tend to get more difficult to mislynch and end up being harder to directly manipulate. Another thing I've noticed is that people who are very heavily case based tend to never be impressed with my playstyle and tend to scumread me no matter what I do.

One last note is that my playstyle is almost impossible for me to emulate. It sounds on the surface like being a secretive town player that only reveals stuff when he feels like it would be easy to emulate, but it's really not. I've only ever managed to succeed once. :/

[BROseidon]

I disagree with most of what muffin posted.

[BROseidon]

Also the way you read more casual/less reason/more gut based play is positionality and timing, which are two of the things I excel at so I obviously bias towards people playing that way

[Ankamius]

Also the way you read more casual/less reason/more gut based play is positionality and timing, which are two of the things I excel at so I obviously bias towards people playing that way

Who is this directed at?

[PokerFace]

Requiring intent for a vote to count can lead to some worse issues. Think fake day vigging or requiring unvote before a vote will count

VOTE: BOB (He did not unvote last vote or declare intent)

Bob gives a Bah go town post

Mod says vote does not count (He did not have rules surrounding requirement of having to unvote)

Bob returns to game and is confirmed town. Guy that tried to hammer him is consider scum as it was lylo. All town players unvote and vote scum for the win

the possibility of this happening is why I don't give 2 shits about unvoteing or supplying intent when i mod. If it looks like a vote, treated like a vote, meant to be a vote, or I think its a vote THEN ITS A VOTE!