UK Meet 2015 Invitational (Game Over)

Micro Games (9 players or fewer). Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #550 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:59 am

Post by Ampersand »

Thanks for expanding your thoughts.

On the tourist claim: what do you see as weird about us wanting to avoid targeting the kill? You wouldn't have done the same thing?

CES points out to me that it might have come across as if we overthought the importance of who we targeted. I can see how this might be the case, because I like to provide thorough explanations for any role-related actions, since I feel it will make it clearer that the claim isn't a lie.

Out of interest, what, in your opinion, made Poro obv-town?


On the accountability of hydras: I disagree. If one head blames the other, then the other should still answer for it! I'd say your complaint would apply more to replacements, if anything. Did you bring this up because it is something you feel we've done, and if so, where?

If it helps, you should be able to tell which one of us has made a given post, since I always sign (barring a couple of short, rushed posts where I forgot) and CES doesn't.


On my expecting being town-read: I do agree with you that hydras are generally harder to read. But nevertheless, I don't think anyone has misread us quite so firmly before, or for reasons I find so hard to relate to. We're usually seen as 'town with some caveats', or maybe 'scummy with town flashes' at worst.


On the possibility of multiple factions: I barely know where to begin here, but I highly, highly doubt Patrick would put two scum factions in a 9-player game. That would mean either no grouped-scum (which makes the game barely mafia), or 3+ scum, in which case town depend on a crosskill to have a chance of a winning, a factor which is out of their hands. If the roles had been selected at random from the deck then multiple factions would be likely, but this was a mod-chosen setup, and Patrick is a sensible guy.

I'm also curious what made you think of this, and what kind of second scum faction you were imagining?

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Post Post #551 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:30 am

Post by Ampersand »

Also if the claim is what bothered you, you might want to check my claim posts here in Scumdon and UK 2014. :]

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Post Post #552 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:41 am

Post by Nexus »

Managed to leave my laptop charger at home. So can't really do much until tomorrow
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Post Post #553 (ISO) » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:08 pm

Post by Tammy »

Been a busy couple days and empire is in town and I think staying here for the next couple days so I need to clean, etc. anyway, this is a prod dodge, but there's a possibility I will be here tonight.
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Post Post #554 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:12 am

Post by Bookitty »

I have a lot of experience with Porochaz (he's one of my favourite players ever) and I rarely misread him.

Your progression on Porochaz didn't thrill me. You moved him from town to scum while expressing vague hydra dissonance (CES read him one way, Fenchurch another). I generally read TRUE hydra dissonance as a towntell; arguing with each other in the thread or countermanding each other can be a sign of a genuine thought process. That's NOT what was happening here, though. And the slide into scumreading Porochaz is not explained.

In post 79, Ampersand wrote:It's my opinion that I'm decidedly not scumhunty when I'm scum. So failing to be scumhunty, makes me aware that I might as well be scum. Since I was having that thought process this game as town, I could imagine CDB-town having the same one.


This made me think that you might be scum and that CDB might be town. (This started off my townread for CDB, actually. I was badly burned by him in a previous game, so I was and am wary, but this was the start for it.) Basically, this defense is a nondefense. It depends completely on CDB being lynched and flipping town to work -- which argues that you know that he would flip town.

As for the multiball spec, I have read this entire game more recently than you, I suspect, and I remembered Patrick suggesting a wide range of possible scum types that could be in this game. The only reason that this worries me is that if we have single scums, making connections is crap and won't work.

Based on what I posted above, you can't be partners with CDB. Nexus doesn't seem to be scum at all to me, so who he would be paired with doesn't matter. CDB could on the outside be Tammy's partner. There's nothing preventing that, but nothing to prove it either. You could be partners with Tammy (your townread on Primate early on supports that a little).

So Tammy could be partners with either of you, but I don't believe that you would semi-buddy and associate yourself with your scumpartner in the way the quote above demonstrates, so I don't see you and CDB as possible partners. I could be wrong; I don't think that I am.
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Post Post #555 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:16 am

Post by Ampersand »

Well, I wish you had been here earlier then, to help with Poro. I find him very difficult to read, both on forums and F2F. I don't know any particular indicators of his town or scum game, and I rarely get a strong (or correct) gut feel on him, in part because I think he and I often have different thought processes and methods. Again, you can refer to the previous games I've linked if it helps you believe me (Scumdon I remember going into N2 convinced it was either CDB or Poro).

Have you looked at any of those games or links yet? I'm not saying you have to, because I know just how dull meta-trawling can be, but I do think it might help you get a correct read on us, if you're town.

Are you aware that CES and I live together? We talk about the game all the time, so it's unlikely that we'd ever need to discuss our reads or disagreements actively in the thread. At the start of D2, CES still felt Poro was scummiest, and I didn't have a strong feelings at that time (I mainly had a bunch of jumbled thoughts from the hito-kill, which I posted), so I was happy for him to take the lead on that.

Patrick confirming that the scum could be any faction is not an indication that we have multiple factions. We've played quite a lot of F2F games built this way (someone choosing a selection of cards from the deck that they think make for a good setup) and by far the majority, if not all, contain a single scum-group - because that makes for a good, balanced, setup. It's just that we don't know (without a flip) what that scum group are.

There's some parts of your reasoning that I can't quite follow so will have to come back to when I'm not at work. But yes, you are wrong in that we're not scum, with or without anyone else.

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Post Post #556 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:47 am

Post by Ampersand »

In post 554, Bookitty wrote:
In post 79, Ampersand wrote:It's my opinion that I'm decidedly not scumhunty when I'm scum. So failing to be scumhunty, makes me aware that I might as well be scum. Since I was having that thought process this game as town, I could imagine CDB-town having the same one.

This made me think that you might be scum and that CDB might be town. (This started off my townread for CDB, actually. I was badly burned by him in a previous game, so I was and am wary, but this was the start for it.) Basically, this defense is a nondefense. It depends completely on CDB being lynched and flipping town to work -- which argues that you know that he would flip town.

It wasn't a defense. It's a correction for a piece of talking about CDb.

In post 554, Bookitty wrote:As for the multiball spec, I have read this entire game more recently than you, I suspect, and I remembered Patrick suggesting a wide range of possible scum types that could be in this game. The only reason that this worries me is that if we have single scums, making connections is crap and won't work.

The thing is just that there is no reason Patrick would subject us to a 7-1-1 set-up when he can just do a 7-2 set-up. Especially a 7-1-1 set-up with no apparent way of any kills being prevented so that the most likely outcome is that we have three lynches to nab two scum.
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Post Post #557 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:26 am

Post by Ampersand »

In post 554, Bookitty wrote:
In post 79, Ampersand wrote:It's my opinion that I'm decidedly not scumhunty when I'm scum. So failing to be scumhunty, makes me aware that I might as well be scum. Since I was having that thought process this game as town, I could imagine CDB-town having the same one.

This made me think that you might be scum and that CDB might be town. (This started off my townread for CDB, actually. I was badly burned by him in a previous game, so I was and am wary, but this was the start for it.) Basically, this defense is a nondefense. It depends completely on CDB being lynched and flipping town to work -- which argues that you know that he would flip town.

Okay so, CES has already commented on this, but it looks like you were misunderstanding what I was saying here (hence my confusion when I read your post earlier). I wasn't defending myself, I was saying that I thought CDB might be town because he was having a similar thought process that I was. It's not me saying "I'm town because CDB is", it was "I think CDB might be town because I am".

Bookitty wrote:The only reason that this worries me is that if we have single scums, making connections is crap and won't work.

And that's part of why Patrick wouldn't have designed the game this way. Also, where are the missing kills? Or if one of the scum is not a killing faction (so, lyncher or cult), how do you expect town to have a shot at winning?!

Please can someone else come and back us up on this, so Bookitty doesn't think we're just trying to hoodwink her. CDB, Nexus, do either of you think there's any likelihood we have multiple scum factions in this game?

Bookitty wrote:And the slide into scumreading Porochaz is not explained.

Well my explanation is in , where I refer to Nexus' . And then a bit more in . Basically it seemed to me that Poro had spent most of the game giving excuses for himself, and had not actually done a lot of scumhunting.

Also: in the run-up to deadline I was typing posts pretty much continuously and as fast as I could - I remember having to submit that preemptively in order to respond to the votes on us - so it's possible I would have explained more if it hadn't been a stupid deadline rush to ensure that we even actually lynched someone at all.

Also: I wasn't even interested in actually lynching Poro at that stage, because of his claim. I just wanted to get some of my re-read thoughts out, in case we died. And seriously, why are you giving me a hard time for scumreading Poro there, yet you give CDB a pass even though he actually tried to
lynch
Poro just a few posts later.

Ugh this game. It seems churlish to say so, but looking back through my posts, I actually do think I've been pretty obviously town, and I can't understand why other people don't see that. :(

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Post Post #558 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:33 am

Post by Ampersand »

Mm... I regret posting that last bit. It is rude to expect to be easily perceived one way or another by other people, especially in a game such as mafia. Sorry - I don't want to make the game un-fun for other people. :]

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Post Post #559 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:34 am

Post by Ampersand »

Also I want to declare that we are planning to vote Tammy soon.

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Post Post #560 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:19 pm

Post by Tammy »

In post 559, Ampersand wrote:Also I want to declare that we are planning to vote Tammy soon.

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Please don't. It's not going to further a town win. I'm not really sure what I can do to sway people either because you've all known each other and it just feels like I'm the odd one out here.

I don't think it's fair to compare my replace in to team mafia. In team mafia I had been following along from the beginning suw to it beg team mafia, and I had a strong scum read on bbt - that was correct- and a scum read on ces - that was correct. I had decent town reads on zach, ika, and antihero as well as regfanish.

Where those things were completely defined I felt strong, although people were arguing against my but read so I stod back.

Everything else was weak and I was fumbling around for where to find reads. I feel like that undefined aspect is more comparable to here where I haven't felt overwhelmingly great about reads.

But I guess since nobody has quick hammered it means that cdb is definitely scum, so can we please lynch scum and not me?

VOTE: cdb

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Post Post #561 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:07 pm

Post by Nexus »

I would argue that all of us (except CES) are fairly cautious players, so quickhammers are always unlikely.
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Post Post #562 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:13 pm

Post by Ampersand »

In post 560, Tammy wrote:a scum read on ces - that was correct.

I don't know if this was just a typo, but you do know this was incorrect, right? CES was town in Team Mafia.

I'll write more when I'm actually awake.

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Post Post #563 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:14 pm

Post by Ampersand »

In post 561, Nexus wrote:I would argue that all of us (except CES) are fairly cautious players, so quickhammers are always unlikely.

you think this applies even in lylo?

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Post Post #564 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:27 pm

Post by Nexus »

I dunno? I mean, I'm definitely even more cautious in LYLO - both as scum and town. I was burned as scum once by a surprise, bullshit SK when I thought I had the game sewn up.

I don't think there'd be two killing factions, fwiw. Doesn't really make sense to me?
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Post Post #565 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:37 pm

Post by Tammy »

That was a typo.
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Post Post #566 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:39 pm

Post by Ampersand »

So, something I should have done last night was explain why we've come round to the idea of voting Tammy over CDB.

a) A large portion of Tammy's content have been non-game-related stuff, e.g. long explanations about why she hasn't been able to post. Even in her last post she spends more time talking about team mafia than this game.

b)
As I said in a post I began writing but it looks like I didn't submit,
after Nexus made that comment about Primate's iso, I did look back and it actually was worse than I remembered, and worse in comparison to the other games I mentioned.

c) Tammy's reaction to being voted has been pretty lackluster. As town I would expect her to be more outraged at an incorrect vote on her in lylo. I think her defeatism here (e.g. in the last post, 'I'm not sure what I can do to sway you') is more likely indicative of Tammy as scum. As town, I think she would have more confidence in her ability to convince people of that.

d) CDB's response in seemed fair, and although I still have some reservations, I acknowledge that it could come from him as town. CDB's reasons in for trying to convince Nexus still don't make logical sense to me (the reads of dead townies aren't always right. If he expects Nexus to die, surely better to convince one of us) but at the same time, I don't know if it really makes sense for him to do that as scum (setting Nexus up as the most obvious kill seems like a bad move if CDB would then benefit from not killing him).

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Post Post #567 (ISO) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:27 pm

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See I'm in a damned if I do damned if I don't situation here.

YOU compared my play to team mafia. That's the only reason I tried to explain myself about team mafia. It's disingenuous as fuck for you to claim that you're comparing my play to there and how you read me as town sooooooo much easier than here because of how I presented my thoughts, and then when I tell you why it's not fair for you to make that comparison, you go oh look she talked too much about team mafia.

You're comparing the reads I did have there which were strong to here which will always net an incorrect comparison. HOWEVER if you look at the intersections, those reads that weren't as strong and see how I was flailing about on those, they'd match up quite well to how I feel here, but you're only concentrating on the strong reads.

I really have no idea how me feeling defeated makes me scum. Everyone is gearing up to lynch me; I have not one ally at all. The only ally I did have was night killed. Everyone else has these weird notions of how I would behave in a game where I have no clue who scum is besides cdb and that's only thanks to the fact that I haven't been quick hammered. You're totally mistaking how I might behave in lylo in a game where I was here from the start and emotionally invested and doing everything from the start to how I might behave in a game in which I replaced in the day before lylo and came close to being lynched the day I replaced in. It's a whole other ballpark.

You're giving the game to CDB because he's your friend; there's not much I can do about that. And hey I completely understand, I'd want to believe my friend over someone I barely know too, but there's really not a whole lot that I can do when everyone wants to lynch me for lame reasons and the game ends with my lynch. If it had happened yesterday then at least I could put something out there that would help with solving the game, but I can't here. Maybe my play has been shit here, maybe it's been my fault. I don't know. I just don't know what else to do.
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Post Post #568 (ISO) » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:48 am

Post by Ampersand »

In post 567, Tammy wrote:See I'm in a damned if I do damned if I don't situation here.

YOU compared my play to team mafia. That's the only reason I tried to explain myself about team mafia. It's disingenuous as fuck for you to claim that you're comparing my play to there and how you read me as town sooooooo much easier than here because of how I presented my thoughts, and then when I tell you why it's not fair for you to make that comparison, you go oh look she talked too much about team mafia.

It's not about that you talked too much about team mafia in absolute terms; it's that there is a recurring pattern of where you seem to talk more freely about things that aren't this game. I mean, I have no clue what your opinion on Bookitty or Nexus is.

In post 567, Tammy wrote:You're giving the game to CDB because he's your friend; there's not much I can do about that. And hey I completely understand, I'd want to believe my friend over someone I barely know too, but there's really not a whole lot that I can do when everyone wants to lynch me for lame reasons and the game ends with my lynch. If it had happened yesterday then at least I could put something out there that would help with solving the game, but I can't here. Maybe my play has been shit here, maybe it's been my fault. I don't know. I just don't know what else to do.

I don't get how you can accuse us of giving the game to CDb if at the same time you claim not to be able to give any arguments for CDb being scum. Do you
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Post Post #569 (ISO) » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:51 am

Post by Fenchurch »

There are times when I am glad to be in a hydra with CES, and that is one. I spent my lunch break trying (and failing) to articulate my thoughts to Tammy's post, and then I came home and they were already written, better than I could have done.

In case you're wondering, you can ignore the trailing 'Do you' at the end; it was the start of an unnecessary sentence which just reiterated the previous one.

CDB needs to check in, he's been absent for over 2 days. I'd like to hear more from Bookitty too.

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Post Post #570 (ISO) » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:51 am

Post by Ampersand »

There are times when I am glad to be in a hydra with CES, and that is one. I spent my lunch break trying (and failing) to articulate my thoughts to Tammy's post, and then I came home and they were already written, better than I could have done.

In case you're wondering, you can ignore the trailing 'Do you' at the end; it was the start of an unnecessary sentence which just reiterated the previous one.

CDB needs to check in, he's been absent for over 2 days. I'd like to hear more from Bookitty too.

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Post Post #571 (ISO) » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:27 pm

Post by Ampersand »

I've just noticed the deadline is July 28th. Where the hell is everybody. I had hoped for some new posts overnight. I hate quiet lylos, it reminds me of my second game, where the scum was not under any suspicion, and he just sat around twiddling his thumbs until us townies voted each other. Is that what's happening here? If anyone has anything to say before we vote Tammy, they should do it very soon.

Patrick, please prod CDB.

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Post Post #572 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:22 am

Post by Patrick »

CDB was prodded last night.
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Post Post #573 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:25 am

Post by Patrick »

Votecount

Tammy (1) -- ChannelDelibird
ChannelDelibird (1) -- Tammy

Not voting: Ampersand, Bookitty, Nexus
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Post Post #574 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:18 am

Post by Bookitty »

Sorry I haven't been really communicative. My Internet has been up and down (I don't know why, but at a guess it has to do with thunderstorms and heat) and I had a post typed up here this morning that went poof when my 'Net went down.

In short, I'm fine with the Tammy lynch. I am sure Nexus is town. I think I could probably make a case for CDB-scum, if that's wanted, but I just don't feel it myself. (His absence after I said I thought he was town, though, isn't making me feel all kittens and puppies about him.)

I'm going to try to make a better post once my Internet is more stable. For now, though, I'm going to say that I think the best chance for hitting scum for sure in LYLO is to vote Tammy, because:

I don't think Nexus is scum
I don't think Ampersand and CDB can be scum together
So Ampersand-Tammy or CDB-Tammy are the only viable possibilities from my perspective

My vote will be going to Tammy sometime before deadline.
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