Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Soren]

if you go through the truth tables from a basic logic class.

Off topic question because I am always interested in people who practices/demonstrates the use logic. Have you taken logic classes before?

[Rob14]

Pers, you don't have any objection to me making public your claim, do you? I've known about your crumb for a while and it doesn't affect my read/decision, but I think it's optimal to let others consider it.

So I'm curious, you knew about the FBI crumb Persi made but still got into a wall fight with him page after page?

Pers, you don't have any objection to me making public your claim, do you? I've known about your crumb for a while and it doesn't affect my read/decision, but I think it's optimal to let others consider it.

Though this is pretty town, you could have just not mentioned his crumb if you were scum. Though I would only argue that this applies if you're the SK. So meaning, at the very least, you're not the SK.

Spoiler:

does your role pm give any hints as to what an SK might look like / what form they might take that you could share with us in paraphrased form? alternatively, what's your take on the earlier "maybe we're all doctors / maybe some of us aren't doctors" discussion?

Also the flavor speculation seems pointless to me. Do we have any reason to think that it's more than dressing to fairly standard roles? I don't see any indication of that in my role pm.

The wiki says that FBI Agent is a very rare role. I had to look it up to see what it did. How did you figure out that you were an FBI Agent?

I looked on site search and the role was used twice in 2015, not counting marathon games, and 3 times in 2014 (again not counting marathon). Why did you think you had a fairly standard role?


The wiki page hasn't been updated since 2011. Does anyone know if this part is valid in current site meta?

"As a result, games with FBI Agent are somewhat evenly split between those that have Serial Killers and those that don't. Unless there is evidence of an SK potentially being in the setup, FBI Agent is essentially a Named Townie."

--P

FBI is pretty standard in Greatest Idea Mafia games, assuming they pick FBI as their role.

---

For now
UNVOTE: Persi
I would be down to lynch Davsto, but Rob, thoughts on Kuroi?

Yup. I already explained why the claim didn't change anything for me. I consider it unverifiable.

And I don't know on Kuroi, honestly. He apparently has games of experience, but he's playing like a newb, and it's making me question whether my initial newbtown tell actually does apply. His reads list was all gut and no substance. If a scum is in {Pers, Dav}, which I think there is, then it was a very convenient read list for Kuroi to have at the time. I think a Dav lynch helps sort out Kuroi as well.

So basically,

VOTE: Davsto

[Rob14]

if you go through the truth tables from a basic logic class.

Off topic question because I am always interested in people who practices/demonstrates the use logic. Have you taken logic classes before?

One of my majors is pure math, so I've taken classes that involve the use of logic, yes.

[BROseidon]

v/la through sunday

[Davsto]

Pers, the reason I don't consider two kills to confirm is that FBI Agent is a great fake claim for an SK.

Think about it. You get the two kills to "confirm". Scum don't kill you because you can't investigate on them. It's pretty airtight.

I thought about your claim and how it could/couldn't be confirmed, and I concluded that there was no feasible way to confirm it without assuming that an SK wouldn't lie. And that's obviously not a good assumption to make.

This reasoning is flawed. Why would an SK fakeclaim FBI Agent? Through being an SK, he'd know there's quite a risk of there being an FBI Agent in the game, and as such fakeclaiming FBI brings with it quite a decent chance of being counter-claimed.

Davsto, as I've already explained, it's in Persivul's scum meta that he is heavily antagonistic toward town. Check Blitz 1 and his treatment of ETL.

Still reading, just wanted to post this before I forget, because the rationale behind Davsto's town-read on Pers based on our interaction is deeply flawed.

I want a response to this from Davsto.

I prefer to use my own experiences with someone for meta reads than use someone else's. Meta is easy to bend to your will as the user of the meta, and the subject of the meta can purposefully manipulate their own meta. I'm perfectly fine with "X does this as town so it's not a scumtell", but not "X does this as town so he's town for doing it" or "X does this as scum so he's scum for doing this". Basically, I'll trust my own reads, thanks.

1) SK setups are wonky, and multiple FBI Agents are not unheard of, especially if the SK has a lot going in their favor for abilities. They could easily argue that. FBI Agents in general are not frequently in setups because the SK generally needs things going in their advantage. This is a point that doesn't really matter, though, because I'm no longer interested in lynching Persivul this day.

2) I'm not arguing "X does this as town so he's town". I'm arguing "X does this as town, so you can't say X is scum because he just did this". That's very different, and it's a logically bulletproof argument. If you say "Action Y ---> X is scum", and I show you an instance of "Action Y AND X is not scum", then your argument is incorrect. It's literally the negation of your argument if you go through the truth tables from a basic logic class.

I'm like 90% sure what you're saying in the original quoted post is "Persivul is being antagonistic and as such he's scum". Considering that you were the one scumreading Persivul while I was townreading him and that post was made to deconstruct this, why is it that you're suddenly acting like you were saying he was town?

[Davsto]

Like, I'm genuinely confused by that reply, because what you went and did is say exactly the opposite of what you were saying in that original quoted post.

[Rob14]

Soren, just want to prove a point to Pers for a second, because I'm getting furious at him lying about me lying (because honestly, that's what it's come down to):

Did you unvote in direct response to what I posted, both his crumb and the rationale for why Dav is better?

P-edit: Dav, I mistyped a bit I think. Basically flip all the uses of town and scum. I got into so much X and Y and town and scum that I flipped the two by accident.

I'm saying you said he was town because of action Y. I showed you an instance of him doing action Y as scum. Ergo, he can NOT be town because of action Y.

He can still be town, but not because of action Y. Basically, I'm saying your read is utter and complete trash. You should take the meta evidence that I provided directly contradicting it and reconsider. If you come up with Town!Pers, that's fine, whatever, but you need a reason that isn't directly contradicted by meta evidence.

[Persivul]

No, it's me telling you to back the fuck off before I replace out. Playing with you is like hitting myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly.

And now doubling down on AtE.

[Frozen Angel]

No, it's me telling you to back the fuck off before I replace out. Playing with you is like hitting myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly.

And now doubling down on AtE.

and ATE is alignment indicative?

[Rob14]

@Mod - Replace me.

Parting thoughts:

- Persivul, after this game, take a moment and reflect that your deliberately antagonistic playstyle and personality are literally driving people from your games. I've replaced out from this one. ETL nearly replaced out from my Blitz 1 over your behavior, and I wouldn't have blamed her. She did self-hammer to get away from it.

- You literally told someone who was seeking mental health assistance for an unspecified issue to leave the site. That borders just outside of what I would consider ban-worthy, but it's still an incredibly shitty thing to do.

- You'll soon find that no-one wishes to be in a game with you. I certainly don't.

[Rob14]

No, it's me telling you to back the fuck off before I replace out. Playing with you is like hitting myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly.

And now doubling down on AtE.

and ATE is alignment indicative?

And no, it's not. And that's kind of the fucking point. Persivul as scum (and I hope to god he is, because if he plays town like this, DEAR LORD) nitpicks every little thing whether it makes sense or not and acts like a complete and utter asshole until he drives people from the game. And no-one calls him out on it because he's so completely insufferable that they don't even want to read it or engage. And I don't blame them.

[Rob14]

@Mod - Nevermind, don't replace me yet.

Why should I be the one to leave? There's an easier solution.

VOTE: Persivul

Policy. I don't care whether he's town or scum or a fucking fairy princess at this point. My vote sits here until he's gone. Still probably scum, though.

[Rob14]

If it doesn't regain traction, I will absolutely replace out, because I'm just fucking done.

[Rob14]

For added AtE, I will also be replying to every Pers post directed at me with "Fuck you."

[Soren]

Rob, you should take a step away from the game for now.
Persi, don't antagonize him.

[Rift Adrift]

...BTW, can there be a prod on Not_Mafia, please?

I've suspended prods for New Years. Needed prods will go out first thing tomorrow morning.

[Persivul]

and ATE is alignment indicative?

Yes, it's generally considered scummy.

[Frozen Angel]

and ATE is alignment indicative?

Yes, it's generally considered scummy.

I'm happy with my vote on persival

[Davsto]

Soren, just want to prove a point to Pers for a second, because I'm getting furious at him lying about me lying (because honestly, that's what it's come down to):

Did you unvote in direct response to what I posted, both his crumb and the rationale for why Dav is better?

P-edit: Dav, I mistyped a bit I think. Basically flip all the uses of town and scum. I got into so much X and Y and town and scum that I flipped the two by accident.

I'm saying you said he was town because of action Y. I showed you an instance of him doing action Y as scum. Ergo, he can NOT be town because of action Y.

He can still be town, but not because of action Y. Basically, I'm saying your read is utter and complete trash. You should take the meta evidence that I provided directly contradicting it and reconsider. If you come up with Town!Pers, that's fine, whatever, but you need a reason that isn't directly contradicted by meta evidence.

Ahh, I see.

The antagonism isn't the reason I'm townreading him (I'm not sure if I ever said that). It's because you - and several others - have been scumreading him because of his hoppy votes, quick transitions, etc. Rather than trying to do it less because you scumread him for it, he keeps doing it intentionally, and even pointing it out. It seems like quite a carefree attitude where he doesn't really care whether he gets lynched or not, which is weird for scum to do, considering he's close to being lynched. Even more if you think he's SK - as Mafia, being lynched is bad, but at least it doesn't instantly mean you lose.

[Frozen Angel]

I' not scum reading him because of hoppy votes davasto. whats your opinion about my case against him?

[Davsto]

I' not scum reading him because of hoppy votes davasto. whats your opinion about my case against him?

Could you briefly sum it up in one post (or link me to a post where you did so) just so it's easier to find? Because it seems rather spread over your ISO

[Rift Adrift]

VC 1.10

Persivul

(5): FA_Q2, Frozen Angel, Plottin Kittehs, Shiro, Rob13

Rob13

(3): Not_Mafia, Davsto, Persivul

Davsto

(3): BROseidon, Adaptive Heap, KuroiXHF

KuroiXHF

(1): Aristophanes

Not Voting

(1): Soren

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: January 5, Noon US Eastern Time
Countdown: (expired on 2016-01-05 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:
- Prod holiday! I won't send prods out for the next 48 hours. Happy New Year!

[Frozen Angel]

I' not scum reading him because of hoppy votes davasto. whats your opinion about my case against him?

Could you briefly sum it up in one post (or link me to a post where you did so) just so it's easier to find? Because it seems rather spread over your ISO

Not gonna help you. there is a conversation between me and Him about it <<

[Davsto]

I' not scum reading him because of hoppy votes davasto. whats your opinion about my case against him?

Could you briefly sum it up in one post (or link me to a post where you did so) just so it's easier to find? Because it seems rather spread over your ISO

Not gonna help you. there is a conversation between me and Him about it <<

I've looked and... is the case that he starts with people town and then reads them as scum when they do scummy things, while you start with them as scum and change when you think they're not scum?

That's just a playstyle difference, not anything to scumread him on. Different people play different ways, there is not one way to scumhunt.

Is there any part of your case I missed?

[Frozen Angel]

you lost it totally