Open 457: Double Day Unlimited - GAME OVER!

[buldermar]

You explain to me how this is flailing now.

Don't forget this.

[shos]

you are now during the flailing, hehe. when you've flipped scum you'll see hehe.

You said that you don't want people to quickhammer by mistake - amd this way, you wouldn't want to lynch them, because it was by mistake, even though it could be scum in disguise.
You said that you DO want people to quickhammer with intent - and this way, you wouldn't want to lynch them, because in this setup, you'd quicklynch all your suspects.

so either way, anyone who quickhammers is not someone that you'd lynch. so if you announce L-1 and scum quickhammer knowingly, it's ok; but if you don't announce L-1 and scum quickhammer unknowingly(supposed), then it's ok too; do you still not get this?

[buldermar]

Okay, to me this is essentially you claiming scum, as I will explain below.

You said that you don't want people to quickhammer by mistake

Correct.

amd this way, you wouldn't want to lynch them, because it was by mistake, even though it could be scum in disguise.

Incorrect. I didn't say that I wouldn't want to lynch them, nor did I say that I would. I don't think there is a general rule with respect to this because it depends on how likely the person is to do a supposed accidently quickhammer as scum relative to as town.

You said that you DO want people to quickhammer with intent

Correct, as long as they are quickhammering the person they find most likely to be scum. Note that it's not like you can just quickhammer anyone and afterwards claim that the person just-so happened to be the one you found most likely to be scum; there has to either be a case beforehand or the person you quickhammer would have to do something scummy enough to justify the quickhammer. I kind of get the impression that you're insinuating that I'm fine with

all

quickhammers, which isn't the case.

and this way, you wouldn't want to lynch them, because in this setup, you'd quicklynch all your suspects.

Depending on whether or not I believe that they actually considered the person they quickhammered the most likely to be scum. If I don't think there is enough reason to think so I'd be more inclined to consider the quickhammer opportunistic.

so either way, anyone who quickhammers is not someone that you'd lynch.

Incorrect. This is an allegation that does not resemble the points I've made, and I consider it quite scummy of you to tweak what I've been saying this way.

so if you announce L-1 and scum quickhammer knowingly, it's ok

Only if there was a case against that person beforehand, as stated above.

but if you don't announce L-1 and scum quickhammer unknowingly(supposed), then it's ok too

Again, this depends on how likely the person is to quickhammer as scum and town, respectively.

do you still not get this?

I do. This is a case of strawman (Okay, to me this is essentially you claiming scum.

You said that you don't want people to quickhammer by mistake

Correct.

amd this way, you wouldn't want to lynch them, because it was by mistake, even though it could be scum in disguise.

Incorrect. I didn't say that I wouldn't want to lynch them, nor did I say that I would. I don't think there is a general rule with respect to this because it depends on how likely the person is to do a supposed accidently quickhammer as scum relative to as town.

You said that you DO want people to quickhammer with intent

Correct, as long as they are quickhammering the person they find most likely to be scum. Note that it's not like you can just quickhammer anyone and afterwards claim that the person just-so happened to be the one you found most likely to be scum; there has to either be a case beforehand or the person you quickhammer would have to do something scummy enough to justify the quickhammer. I kind of get the impression that you're insinuating that I'm fine with

all

quickhammers, which isn't the case.

and this way, you wouldn't want to lynch them, because in this setup, you'd quicklynch all your suspects.

Depending on whether or not I believe that they actually considered the person they quickhammered the most likely to be scum. If I don't think there is enough reason to think so I'd be more inclined to consider the quickhammer opportunistic.

so either way, anyone who quickhammers is not someone that you'd lynch.

Incorrect. This is an allegation that does not resemble the points I've made, and I consider it quite scummy of you to tweak what I've been saying this way.

so if you announce L-1 and scum quickhammer knowingly, it's ok

Only if there was a case against that person beforehand, as stated above.

but if you don't announce L-1 and scum quickhammer unknowingly(supposed), then it's ok too

Again, this depends on how likely the person is to quickhammer as scum and town, respectively.

do you still not get this?

I do. This is a case of strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), which is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. I quote: "To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." Why would you do this? Because you're scum.

[shos]

ok so I might have inferred some things that you did not *literally* said, but that just sounds fine you know. I'll rephrase what I meant in order for you to understand:

from what you said I understood that if a player quickhammers and claims to have not known he is quickhammering, that counts as a null tell, or in other words, people can get away with it easily.
from what you said I understood that if a player quickhammers knowingly and claims to just have a scumread on the lynchee, then null tell again - so people can get away with it easily too.

this clashes with a few things:
from memory, uctitron hammered with no reason at all, knowingly, and you protected him as townie. soooo that means you did not think that the quickhammer was opportunistic.
you voted venrob to L-1 since he did not say it was L-1. does this mean that if he voted everyone and said (L-1 on bla) you'd let it slide?

now about your post up here: funny how you posted it twice, no? you wanted to remove the "to me this is essentially you claiming scum" and put the last two lines instead. so what happened? didn't want to make a commitment and vote? THIS is to me you claiming scum. you knew that I'm not sure who to vote and didn't want to help me by voting me. shame this got you voted.

VOTE: Buldermar

also, I did not strawman you, lol. there was nothing to refute you know <_< I built a case against you flailing around all your quicklynch policies and you tramped.

voided, when you see this, post to show you're not scum, kay?

[Voidedmafia]

uh...okay.

Vote: Buldermar

[Voidedmafia]

So, how wonderful was I?

[CF Riot]

Vote Count

[02] buldermar - shos, Voidedmafia

Not voting: buldermar

buldermar

has been lynched. He was a

vanilla townie

.

shos

takes a surprise bullet to the back of the head, and the mafia team of

drmyshotgun

and

Voidedmafia

win! Good game everyone, and thanks for playing.

Dead thread.

[Voidedmafia]

what?

[shos]

you shittin me, voided is scum? :S

[shos]

meh. very good game voided. damn you, but you played very well and deserve this win.

[drmyshotgun]

Thanks for the win Voided!

[Voidedmafia]

tbh, most of this game I felt like I was attacking things that IMO honestly felt scummy, and defending against attacks (either on myself or someone else like Dashie) that I honestly felt were bad, etc., so I guess that helped.

Still, it WAS fun watching Buld and Shos basically destroy each other in LyLo.

(DASHIE, PLEASE DON'T HOLD THIS AGAINST ME! THIS IS IN NO WAY REVENGE FOR THAT SCIENCE OPEN, I SWEAR!)

[CF Riot]

VOTE: shos

So...
/facepalm

Drmy, how bad were you mashing your f5 button right here?

[Voidedmafia]

I was probably busy, idk. I'm not entirely sure the timestamps are correlated to my timezone (which is Central time). Or I just missed it, or something.

[Voidedmafia]

I mean, I would've liked a perfect game as much as anyone, but it's still a good thing I was prepared for the case w here Gunny was lynched.

[Rainbowdash]

(DASHIE, PLEASE DON'T HOLD THIS AGAINST ME! THIS IS IN NO WAY REVENGE FOR THAT SCIENCE OPEN, I SWEAR!)

Actually if you look at early on dead QT, I was trying to get you NKed because I was really unsure of you being town but keeping you alive was a benifit to me. All I knew were shos/uticon were town for those reads but had to take the risk on you being town too or no hope at all.

uticon dying N1 was a big red flag that some scum had to like their position, he was town for sure to me... but it was a useless slot and there were a few active prob-towns that would be important to first get rid of.

Still stand by my rule 8 arugement, and the fact that Chaos not being replaced for two weeks of prod-dodging was a major mod semi-helping scum situation

[CF Riot]

Oh yeah, anyone who wants to rant about rule 8 now's the time. I know Voided said at one point via PM he didn't like it either. Both nights I got all the return PMs really quickly, and it was there more to prevent activity related role speculation than to actually keep tabs on you guys, but I can see some of the possible drawbacks to it. Half the dead QT is just Dashie and I arguing about it's usefulness in hypothetical situations. Let me know what you think.

I'm sorry that Chaos managed to prod-dodge so long but I would've handled it exactly the same way if he were town. This game taught me to add a clause to my rules for no content posts in the future, but this game he was meeting the bare minimum requirements following the listed rules so I upheld them. Next time I may reduce the time allowed to pick up a prod to 24 hours for a total of 4 days inactivity. Idk, it was just unfortunate.

[drmyshotgun]

Haha, I grinded my F5 button at that point. It has disappeared from my keyboard because it was smashed into it.
But all's well that ends well.
Yeah, awesome game, thanks Moderator. Thanks for giving me opportunity to sub in for ya.
Sorry for not being particularly amazing substitute and thanks for the win Voided

I don't really know what the deal was with Rule #8, but I'm sure each of you have valid arguments for and against.
Blah blah, good game, thank yous etc etc.

[shos]

I think that voided gets MVP for this game, played exceptionally well as scum. I have no problem at all losing as town, I usually suck as town anyway =\ so congrats, thanks everyone and the mod, off ya go into my signature

[buldermar]

shos: I think you're in general a good player, but why the fuck did you vote with so many days left? It makes zero sense to me.

Voided: Well played. I think I would have ended up voting shos for his tunneling on me and (from my perspective) quite outrageous accusations. Congratulations.

Rest of town: Sorry I guess ;/

[buldermar]

Let me know what you think.

It is a good rule, but probably more on theoretical than practical grounds.

[Mr.K]

Oh well! Yeah, well played Voided. Think you would have won with me in lylo as well.

I didn't have any problems with rule #8 either. At first it seemed a bit unnecessary but in practice I didn't mind. I'm probably too inexperienced to say anything deeper about how it might cause problems for real.

[Voidedmafia]

Actually if you look at early on dead QT, I was trying to get you NKed because I was really unsure of you being town but keeping you alive was a benifit to me. All I knew were shos/uticon were town for those reads but had to take the risk on you being town too or no hope at all.

Speaking of, can we have the QT link?

uticon dying N1 was a big red flag that some scum had to like their position, he was town for sure to me... but it was a useless slot and there were a few active prob-towns that would be important to first get rid of.

I can see why it would be. In our Mafia QT, Gunny and I did consider Buld and uc to be the best kills N1.

Still stand by my rule 8 arugement, and the fact that Chaos not being replaced for two weeks of prod-dodging was a major mod semi-helping scum situation

Out of curiousity, why would that be?

Sorry for not being particularly amazing substitute and thanks for the win Voided

To be fair to your case, I do tend to buddy and sheep Dashie more often than I should as town or scum. It's just that in this game I honestly felt like the stuff on Dashie was crap.

Voided: Well played. I think I would have ended up voting shos for his tunneling on me and (from my perspective) quite outrageous accusations. Congratulations.

Like I said, looking at this as scum it was fun to watch you two go at each other. I think, if I was dead town looking in (and, say, Dashie was in my place), I'd probably be screaming "STOP YELLING AT EACH OTHER, DAMMIT! YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING DONE!"

Oh well! Yeah, well played Voided. Think you would have won with me in lylo as well.

I'm not entirely sure. You were still slightly slanted toward me being scum, and I wasn't entirely sure a Buld or Shos kill would slant you more towards voting me.

On the other hand, I knew Buld had a solid enough townread on me going into the night, and I figured that so long as I did well he wouldn't change his mind on me that much.

[Mr.K]

I'm not entirely sure. You were still slightly slanted toward me being scum, and I wasn't entirely sure a Buld or Shos kill would slant you more towards voting me.

I had not shut that door completely but shos seemed like a much more likely candidate to me and seeing how the final day ran now, I don't think I would have changed my mind.

[Voidedmafia]

No Dead QT?