Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Soul2277]

Vaguely saying it's completely destroyable when one of the points is you've been over using gut instead of reason just adds to that reason some.

~Mehdi

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

• Thor665 (2)
  : Soul2277 PiggyGal15
  
• JesseSheffield (2)
  : Thor665 N
  
• Soul2277 (2)
  : JesseSheffield Justin Timberlake
  
• Not voting:
  Cerulean Deadpool

Deadline: Sat 1 Dec, 23:29 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-12-01 23:29:00)

)

With 8 alive it is 5 to lynch.

[Soul2277]

Lastly jesse I'm curious for what? What makes us leaning scum? Is it following JT, a different reason, something I'm forgetting, etc?

~Mehdi

[N]

N: I’m honestly over it.

Well, that's convenient.

[Thor665]

a. day 2 and day 3 voting with the n vote connecting with the second reason while the jesse vote being on one thing (voting n over sixty when they were being a very likely lynch is a scum tell how) plus us having jesse as a town read,

b. 640 doesn't really respond to point in 638,

c. Sheer amount of beard pushing when it comes to some reads with minimal other reasoning. I know you can use logic but in this game you can say beard plus a short reason and it's working,

d. Read flow has problems. Why is piggy town? You unvoted her and voted someone else but after unvoting them you just kept on elsewhere without ever really going back and explaining how she's town. Absta to a lesser extent since before his replace out you didn't mention him much and it was usually more not understanding him or finding him a bit scummy (unless the replace out by itself is enough to go from null/scum to town). Vote voided after little mention of him with the main scum mention was my scum read on him made sense, and linked to the next one

e. Lack of true force with each scum read. Right now you're suspecting jesse. Before n. Didn't really like sixty but stayed on n. Both you've not really pushing hard (n I realize was related to being a counter wagon but that doesn't nullify this). The only person you've fosed a lot and pushed quite a bit for their lynch after the first couple of pages was voided who even there wasn't really your lynch. I'd expect you to being pushing and leading more lynch wise, but that's lacking. Remind me who you're scum reads are and how you're currently pushing a lot for their lynch?

a and b naturally being added after OS's wall, but the other 3 being the main ones (d being the most important I want an explanation to)

.

I'll start with the important stuff and move onto the less important stuff than.

D. No, your ability to read my read flow has problems. You are correct that I unvoted my RVS and voted someone else...I'm not sure why I'm supposed to explain it. Heck, I explaine dthe unvote as much as the initial vote...so? Also, you're showing how badly you're reading me because I called Absta town prior to even the end of Day 1, much less when I did it around his replace out. Your last sentence I'd be happy to respond to - but I honestly don't know what it's saying or accusing me of...meh.

E. I love that you don't seem to grok why I pushed on N like I did. I barely even feel I should need to justify this until you actually do enough work to grok maybe why I was pushing on him in an odd way - I was even dropping funny hints about it to Ceru when she was grumping at me. My current scum read is Jesse, I'm pushing for his lynch by voting him and asking others to vote him and explaining why I found him scummy from yesterday and the transition to today - I didn't exactly do it hyper subtle either, I kinda flat out stated all that information when i voted him...so...?

C. That seems an idnicment on other people more than me. If no one asks for my reasoning other than what I provide that's not my fault.

B. This is Point E again (which was really point D again, and is best summed up as 'Soul don't grok Thor's scumhunting') but the short answer is 640 *is* an answwer to 638 insomuch as I didn't really buy that you were so bad as to be unable to figure out what the N push was about.

A. Hey, look, it's kinda Point B/E/D all over again. But now you're tossing in that Jesse is a town read and that us suspecting him makes you so very sad. Okay...so? Inherently that's not scummy, it's generally just known as 'disagreeing'. All the rest is, again, you now seeing what I did on Day 2 (and, seriously, after my Day 1 comments...kind of a clue, yeah?)


Man, super tough case of multiple and totally unique points that isn't just "I don't like how Thor hasn't explained his reads and am very put off by the transition of his votes on Day 2-3"

Better type up a ton of supporting evidence for this masterful and multi-layed case.

Then you can vote Jesse.

[Thor665]

Vaguely saying it's completely destroyable when one of the points is you've been over using gut instead of reason just adds to that reason some.

~Mehdi

I've now specifically destroyed it.
Hope that helps.

Also 'beard'.

[JesseSheffield]

Jesse how can you're other two scum reads have wagons on them? There's 3 wagons and one is on us, second on thor, and 3rd on you. It can't be us or you so assuming thor is one where is the other wagoned scum read hiding?

For some reason I was thinking N had two votes on him. That's awkward considering I’m concurrently writing a paper on concussions and retrograde amnesia...

Lastly jesse I'm curious for what? What makes us leaning scum? Is it following JT, a different reason, something I'm forgetting, etc?

I didn’t find that angry little outburst at JT to be genuine. I think I might have even made a mention of that somewhere. That might have just been in my notes though, not sure. I also find a lot of the back-and-forths you have with players to be not so much a dicussion but a search for a hole to attack. I feel like when you’re interrogating a player you’re sniffing for something you can pounce on. Its just more so a gut feeling. You’re little just smack in the middle of my reads at #4.

Well, that's convenient.

I just don’t feel like anything you’re saying leads to a progressive discussion.

Vote: Thor

[Thor665]

I feel like that post alone should explain why this lynch should happen.

[Soul2277]

A plus means something. Go back to how is it scummy for someone to be interested in a wagon different then sixty when it was clear they were being lynched.

B sure.

C so how far has that gotten you with getting people to agree with your reads? Voided you gave reasoning too and others did and was lynched. What about other reads?

D try quoting were you suspected voided much before the vote. Or were you gave reasons why piggy was town before you said you wanted a counter wagon for her. That's the problem. Those are lacking/minimal.

Thor for e I said I realized n was a vote to test for things, but that still leaves the hole of where were you leading and pushing scum reads hard. Day 2 lacks that when you remember the reasoning for voting n, jesse you're attacking more now but before that outside of a really short reason given for voting him (and I'm curious how many people you'd expect to follow you when you just say he's scum for being interested in another wagon then sixty that day), and then voided who did push. I just expect you to be leading more and focusing more on scum reads actually being lynched.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Oh and jesse response wise to 681 second quote:

OS has done that before. OS has even said he doesn't like it when as town he's suspected (hydra document in our last game where we hydra'd is where you can find him saying that). And as for the pounce on well want to expand on that?

~Mehdi

[JesseSheffield]

I feel like that post alone should explain why this lynch should happen.

Good luck trying to run a town again using this logic. Everyone knows your schtick know.

Which of the two possibilities do you think is more likely?

Soul: For example, that post made me feel really anxious when I first read it. Like it didn’t really matter what my response was going to be but that you were just waiting for an opportunity to tear something apart. Its now not-so-subtle paranoia that I’m usually good at hiding. But even per your last post I’m reading this:

\And as for the pounce on well want to expand on that?

and my first thought is why, so he can change something so he comes off less predatory? And then I remember I’m a rational MS player who doesn’t need to worry about those types of things.

[Soul2277]

I was planning on arguing with you for one response (thor is more likely scum there). At the time when I said that I thought thor was more likely town tonally. Your response was essentially the two are just equal so I didn't argue it. A partly loaded question isn't a bad thing and I don't see a pounce following it.

It's because I wanted to know what you're arguing. Saying this feels wrong without knowing more on it leaves a defense of I think you're gut feeling is just wrong.

~Mehdi

[N]

If you’re going to say someone’s not reading the thread go out and prove it.

You didn't read the entirity of my post (which you quoted), so I don't think it's such a great leap of logic to assume you're not reading anything else either.

In post 641, Faraday (who?) wrote:

For some reason I was thinking N had two votes on him.

Well, that's convenient.

I just don’t feel like anything you’re saying leads to a progressive discussion.

Well, obviously I disagree. I personally think that what I have to say is quite important, especially since it has made you slip up a few times already. The fact that you want to cut off any discussion with me also points to the fact that you're worried you'll let something else slip.

I would like you to at least respond to this bit:

And I said legitimately nothing about how I felt about what Sixty had to say. I’d like to know how you got this:

5. If you don't care about what Sixty has to say, why didn't you hammer?

out of this:

5. Dooon’t even pretend like you care about anything Sixty has to say and if they’re as smart as I’m going to assume they are they wouldn’t out any of their buddies.

But actually like I’m genuinely interested. Cause that was a really funny leap of logic. And you can’t follow along then just say you can’t and drop it. If you can’t understand that’s just my problem but if you don’t stop talking then its just everyone’s problem.

I took "Don't pretend you care about what Sixty has to say" as you saying I should hammer. What were you saying there then? Looking at it again after you've said that's not what you mean, the only other way I can think of to interpret it is you thought Sixty was town.

[Thor665]

A plus means something. Go back to how is it scummy for someone to be interested in a wagon different then sixty when it was clear they were being lynched.

You implied it and suddenly shifting reads were scumtells when applied to me, so I'd reckon they'd count on Jesse in your mind too.
I'm probably being silly though.

B sure.

Huzzah.

C so how far has that gotten you with getting people to agree with your reads? Voided you gave reasoning too and others did and was lynched. What about other reads?

I'd say it's doing pretty well so far.
What other reads? Who are you claiming I haven't offered a read on yet? Because I'm pretty sure I've done everyone in the game.

D try quoting were you suspected voided much before the vote. Or were you gave reasons why piggy was town before you said you wanted a counter wagon for her. That's the problem. Those are lacking/minimal.

1. I never said I did, so...?
2. Quote where I did with the vote, why expect me to need to provide reads for unvoting a read I had never provided reads to support?
3. Why is that a problem?

Thor for e I said I realized n was a vote to test for things, but that still leaves the hole of where were you leading and pushing scum reads hard. Day 2 lacks that when you remember the reasoning for voting n, jesse you're attacking more now but before that outside of a really short reason given for voting him (and I'm curious how many people you'd expect to follow you when you just say he's scum for being interested in another wagon then sixty that day), and then voided who did push. I just expect you to be leading more and focusing more on scum reads actually being lynched.

1. I don't think it does leave a hole - I was certainly pushing the N lynch harder than anyone else pushed any lynch besides Sixty - and only Ceru was pushing that case harder than I was pushing N.
2. I suspect a fair number will follow me now that he's flopping around like he currently is. Do you not find that an odd reaction from him? Go look at his play and suspicion this game day and let me know your thoughts.
3. In what way? You agree Day 1 I pushed a lynch (and I did so fairly aggressively, albeit with no case) then Day 2 I pushed a lynch (and was the 2nd hardest pusher of the entire day...and admitted I was doing it for show, so...yeah) and now today I would certainly say I've been one of the more aggressive (personally I would say *most* but could accept it as being argued) pushers of his wagon of choice.

So...how much more do I need to be pushing for you to be happy with the amount of pushing I'm doing?

[Cerulean]

Okay I got through to page 10. More to come later tonight hopefully.

Piggy reads as somewhat nervous in the beginning.
What the actual fuck.
I can see why people are attacking absta early on.
Thor is town.
72 (Pig) reads as slightly scummy.
What the hell is 75
N reads fine. So does Tampire.
102 (Soul) is rather bad.
Tampire read town.
112 (Equ) reads town.
114 (Soul) reads bad.
Hmm 199 (Soul) doesn’t seem that bad. Prob negates 114 actually.
Wait 120 (Tampire) is bad.
Mehdi reads as somewhat good now.
Did Piggy (138) call the whole playerlist that posted town?
Oh wait actually she’s scum for that ending. She can die when I get to the end.
Don’t really like JS’ entry.
Wait why does Tampire have a scumread on Thor again
Dammit Tampire is towntelling pretty hard but I STILL don’t get the thor read.
Oh wait nvm Tampire can be town for surie.
Tampire Thor fight is town on town.
“Wow...are you a runner? Cuz if you are, you can probably run twice your normal distance after that stretch.” – I seriously fell from my chair.
Jesse reads as somewhat scum.

Thus far:

Piggy, JS
N
Thor, Equi
Tampire, Soul

~ He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named

Is this Arthur? Why did you ask about night less? When we played in heterosexual revolution there were not breaks.

Why did you just declare thor as town?

Why did you feel the need to show your work for developing a town read on me? Why did you say the post in which I asked equinox why she was townreading thor was bad? Why does it seem like your read on me is partially dependent on my read of Thor. And, where did you get that I have a scum read on Thor?

[Thor665]

Also, I'm trying hard not to laugh that apparently about half your case is how Thor isn't the absolutely obvious loudest pushing guy in a game that includes Regfan, Faraday, Vi, Tierce, and Tammy.
Even though I'm still objectively easily in the top 50% of loud pushers in this game despite that.

[Cerulean]

@Ceru - sorry I did that for yesterday, but I wanted to actually see who would be interested in a counterwagon. Jesse bit, but I wanted to then see how Sixty would respond - but, yeah, he went for power lurk to avoid tells.

.

Tis all good. I thought you were just doing it for the amusement factor mostly.

[Thor665]

I feel like that post alone should explain why this lynch should happen.

Good luck trying to run a town again using this logic. Everyone knows your schtick know.

The funny thing is, it still works, especially when the other guy looks scummy.
Sweating yet?

and my first thought is why, so he can change something so he comes off less predatory? And then I remember I’m a rational MS player who doesn’t need to worry about those types of things.

[Thor665]

Tis all good. I thought you were just doing it for the amusement factor mostly.

Eh, it's me, so yeah that was probably partly it in some manner. But I figured with me being who I was, that I could do two things.

1. Get away with it afterwards.
2. Do it enough that someone would bite.

I mean, let's be clear, yesterday, with everything there about Sixty, and me being dead wrong on Voided, he went after N with me...today I'm apparently obv. scum because I'm voting him. The fact that Jesse hopped on N that way, went to the effort of outlining his own take on it, and then dropped it all to hop on the agreed big bus of the day today, and then spun and hopped on me as I rode after him just makes me feel like I found a jackpot for the day.

I'll admit my clear of N is soft, but I'm not sure I buy that 'let's have him talk' comment as really likely to come from a buddy.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on both...(both your thoughts on both?)

[Deadpool]

Is this Arthur? Why did you ask about night less? When we played in heterosexual revolution there were not breaks.

Why did you just declare thor as town?

Why did you feel the need to show your work for developing a town read on me? Why did you say the post in which I asked equinox why she was townreading thor was bad? Why does it seem like your read on me is partially dependent on my read of Thor. And, where did you get that I have a scum read on Thor?

Your 120 indicated you had a scumread on Thor.

~Wade Winston Wilson

[Cerulean]

Cool. Where would you get my asking someone for their reasoning for a town read means I have a scum read on them?

Also, what would it matter if I did? And how can you declare the Thor v Tammy argument town on town if you didn't actually read it? Because the actual words I wrote to Thor in which I gave him my read on him didn't call him scum.

Also, answer my other questions please.

[Thor665]

No it doesn't.

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

From the exact same page...only posted earlier.

[Thor665]

Ninja!

[Deadpool]

When you ask a player why they have a townread on a player it does make it look like you have a scumread on them

Also note that I later said "Oh wait nvm Tampire can be town for surie" which was put when I looked back and realized you might not have a scumread on Thor.

Btw Tammy, who is scum?

~Hero of Hire

[Thor665]

When you ask a player why they have a townread on a player it does make it look like you have a scumread on them

No, it really doesn't. It makes it look like you want to know why they have the read they say they have.

Also note that I later said "Oh wait nvm Tampire can be town for surie" which was put when I looked back and realized you might not have a scumread on Thor.

Why not say this at the time?