Newbie 1560 -- Game Over

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #700 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:36 am

Post by Howl »

In post 699, Howl wrote:Can I just say that Dee is a brilliant player. He was unattackable the entire game which is a great quality.


He was also not to big to say he was wrong about something and go back to change his view. Which is also a great quality and was probably the MVP for town.
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Post Post #701 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:21 am

Post by Derangement »

Well played, scum-team. Well played. <3

It bothered me a little that there weren't more posts to better my reads on TFR, Howl and Micc, but I figured, as Singer mentioned, that low activity was normal for newbie games, and that was
three
players and not two, all of them newbie slots.

It took me half the game to realize town could do scummy stuff on purpose, 'just because'.
I totally tunnel-visioned Depi into a lynch because of it, nearly did the same with House and Elle.

At some point during day-two, I got an okay town-read on Hopkirk after he went and backtracked on his reason to vote me after noticing something he'd missed a fair bit earlier.
(note to self: post less while sleepy. At one point it got so bad, I typoed Castle instead of House xD)
Made me feel it was sincere deduction, since Scum would probably benefit from not pointing such a detail out if no one else spotted it either, and let town get wagoned longer, but then as the day went on, my belief in his innocence faded in the face of everyone else's arguments.

So uh... theory questions time! :P
*bounces up and down ecstatically!*


How good
is
being super-mega-protown-unattackable? (thanks, Howl! :P)
I get that, medic/jailkeeper aside, it usually means a swift bullet to the head during the night, and I'm kind of sort of okay-ish with that. Might change my stance as I get more games under my belt.
But does town really gain that much from having an obvtown player for a short while, as opposed to, say, someone who does the same investigation/voting, but isn't quite as open about their reads and the reasons behind them, or adds in scummier tactics to the mix, and lives longer as a result?
On the flip side, if being obvtown more often than not becomes a part of someone's meta, does that mean they're screwed when they get scum roles, since they arouse suspicion from surviving too long, or can WIFOM/towniest survivor's gambit muddle things up?

Related to that: how often
do
scum usually let the towniest player live longer than a night or two?

I'm also quite curious on whether there's a consensus on theory, or at least a common policy on mafiascum, regarding which situations merit the use (or no use) of intent to hammer. Does it change depending on whether there's PRs still alive? Inactive players waiting for a prod/substitution? V/LA?

Alsoooo, policy lynches. Why, and when, are they a good idea?
I've read about "Lynch all liars", and similar, but don't feel confident enough to know which of these tautologies are actually enforced with votes/lynches more often than not, and which just denote anti-town behaviour that town might still do anyway, because reasons.

*takes several deep breaths, hugs everyone*

I went and textwalled again, didn't I?
Sorry for being the eager newbie, and thanks in advance for any answers and/or tips on how to better my play as either faction! :D
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Post Post #702 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:34 pm

Post by Howl »

I think I would have posted more if I was town truth be told. Day 2 I didn't want the town v town to lose steam and so I took a side and planted myself and because of the fact that I had a solid defensible stance I felt I could get away with less posting. if I hadn't been safe in my stance I would have posted a heap like I did day 1 just so I could get to a point where I was safe again.

Day 3 I wanted to take my time and wait for an opportunity to either win or to hard bus Micc after a 'reread'.
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Post Post #703 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Post by Derangement »

Oh gosh, I just read the MafQT, and realized Micc' right: the day2 hammer came without declaration of intent.
I get a bad case of rigor mortis, and all of a sudden I'm missing important details left and right! :P

Would you say that, even with no PRs in play, the town thing to do would be to declare intent first, so that prior to the day ending and everyone being silenced, the soon-to-be lynched person could have the time to share their reads, thoughts behind them, and other stuff they'd chosen to keep hush about for one reason or another?
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Post Post #704 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:11 pm

Post by Howl »

Tbf everyone knew he was going to vote Elle.
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Post Post #705 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:23 pm

Post by Derangement »

In post 704, Howl wrote:Tbf everyone knew he was going to vote Elle.

Yeah, absolutely. :)
What I meant to ask is whether there is any commonly-adhered-to custom when it comes to announcing that the hammer is coming down
now
, as opposed to Soon™ (but we're scum-hunting a bit longer).

I can imagine people (not only the lynchee) holding back some hard-to-notice details on scum/town reads because they're either not sure of them yet, or are hoping to trip somebody over them by catching scum in an inconsistency, attacking town, or defending their buddy.
Depending on how many people make a habit of announcing intent, that kind of stuff could either be kept unsaid for as long as possible (since a trap ceases to be a trap the moment people are aware of it), or it'd need to be revealed when a person enters L-1 and someone else is scum-reading them, for fear of losing the precious feedback to the hammer, or the night kill that follows.
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Post Post #706 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:58 pm

Post by TheFireRises »

Good game, scum! All of my reads were 100% wrong so I need to step up my game, lol.

Sorry I called you a hothead, house. Sorry I called you fake, Dee. Sorry I tunneled you, Elle.
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Post Post #707 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:00 pm

Post by TheFireRises »

I was wondering if some of the se's could comment on their own play, I have a lot to learn.
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Post Post #708 (ISO) » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:19 pm

Post by TheFireRises »

In post 699, Howl wrote:Can I just say that Dee is a brilliant player. He was unattackable the entire game which is a great quality.


Yo, this. I gotta say, I'm getting serious talent-envy from all of you, especially after reading those scum and dead threads.
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Post Post #709 (ISO) » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Post by Micc »

I had those questions half way answered the other day, but I got busy and never finished. So, sorry its a little late, but hopefully my answers are helpful in one way or another.

In post 701, Derangement wrote:How good is being super-mega-protown-unattackable? (thanks, Howl! )
I get that, medic/jailkeeper aside, it usually means a swift bullet to the head during the night, and I'm kind of sort of okay-ish with that. Might change my stance as I get more games under my belt.
But does town really gain that much from having an obvtown player for a short while, as opposed to, say, someone who does the same investigation/voting, but isn't quite as open about their reads and the reasons behind them, or adds in scummier tactics to the mix, and lives longer as a result?
On the flip side, if being obvtown more often than not becomes a part of someone's meta, does that mean they're screwed when they get scum roles, since they arouse suspicion from surviving too long, or can WIFOM/towniest survivor's gambit muddle things up?

All other things being equal, I'd consider the obvtown player more valuable than the one who purposely tries to survive. If half the town is made of obviously town players then the scumteam has less room to hide, and eventually process of elimination weeds them out. On the flip side, the mafia isn't going to not kill just because none of the townies are obvtown. Somebody has to get shot at, so you might as well do your part in making the decision a hard one for the scum team.

Yes, building a reputation for being obvious town (or even being a strong scumhunter) can hurt a person's scumgame. Its an issue that I think a lot of recognizable names on the site have faced at one time or another. There isn't much you can do at that point except try to position the rest of the scumteam for endgame. Personally, I would never do anything to make my town game worse in order to improve my scumgame.

In post 701, Derangement wrote:Related to that: how often do scum usually let the towniest player live longer than a night or two?

If there are claimed power roles to shoot then Id say those usually take precedence over townread players. Other than that...maybe if the townread player has bad reads and is leading the town in the wrong direction. Even at that point they probably get killed going into mylo/lylo because working around semi-confirmed players gets real difficult as they playerlist shrinks.

In post 701, Derangement wrote:I'm also quite curious on whether there's a consensus on theory, or at least a common policy on mafiascum, regarding which situations merit the use (or no use) of intent to hammer. Does it change depending on whether there's PRs still alive? Inactive players waiting for a prod/substitution? V/LA?

Site meta encourages the following sequence of events:
~Someone gives an intent to hammer.
~People on the wagon decide if they want to get off or stay on.
~Player at L-1 claims their role.
~People discuss the claim, decide to leave wagon or stay on.
~Either player gets hammered or wagon dissolves.

That's pretty standard for a situation where there are town power roles still in play. With no power roles in play there is more grey area. I'd always error on the side of being clear about where you intend to vote and why. People don't like to see hammers get dropped unexpectedly, and giving people a chance to get off a wagon if they don't like it is a good idea.

In post 701, Derangement wrote:Alsoooo, policy lynches. Why, and when, are they a good idea?
I've read about "Lynch all liars", and similar, but don't feel confident enough to know which of these tautologies are actually enforced with votes/lynches more often than not, and which just denote anti-town behaviour that town might still do anyway, because reasons.

Policy lynch is one of those buzz words that has a different meaning to a lot of people. Personally the only thing I'm going to 100% policy lynch is a hammer without giving a chance to claim. Another high consideration is lying about your role or abilities or results. Those two things have super high potential to be devastating to the town, so much so that their isn't an excuse for doing them. Everything else, Im going to take on a case by case basis.

In post 707, TheFireRises wrote:I was wondering if some of the se's could comment on their own play, I have a lot to learn.

This is hard for me to answer as scum, and also because I replaced in. Our interactions were pretty brief and I never really did fully read the game front to back. Howl and I had planned for you to be the deciding vote in 3p lylo if it came down to it. Thats usually an indication that your reads were bad, but youve already admitted to that :P . I don't think anyone was ever truly considering you for scum so thats a plus.

The biggest thing i'd say for you is to work on your scumhunting. To me the biggest part of scumhunting is finding scum motivation. There were a few times were I thought that you (and others) were reading House's personality/playstyle instead of his intentions. Try going back and reading his iso and try to understand what he was trying to accomplish with his posts. I think youll find that a lot of them are him trying to get reactions and reads on people. Compare that to my iso and see if you can see the difference. The biggest thing I wondered going into Day 3 was why no one questioned my lack of a clear stance on anyone besides elleheathen. I purposely left my options open and no one caught on to that motivation.


So, yeah...hopefully you guys find that helpful. I don't mind answering questions, just remember to take them for what they really are - one guys opinion. Stick around, get more experience, and you'll figure out what works for you.
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Post Post #710 (ISO) » Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:21 pm

Post by Nobody Special »

In post 17, Derangement wrote:As for soft claims, I spotted this, early on
In post 32, paulw556 wrote:
Vote House



Because he called me scum couldn't be anymore wrong.

but mistakenly assumed it was coming from newbie scum.

You were not mistaken. :)
....what?



Blitz: Picking Simplicity taking pre-ins; PM for info. (0/13)
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Post Post #711 (ISO) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:24 am

Post by Derangement »

In post 710, Nobody Special wrote:
In post 17, Derangement wrote:As for soft claims, I spotted this, early on
In post 32, paulw556 wrote:
Vote House



Because he called me scum couldn't be anymore wrong.

but mistakenly assumed it was coming from newbie scum.

You were not mistaken. :)

How do you mean?
Pretty sure Paul was Day 1's mislynch. :P
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Post Post #712 (ISO) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:01 am

Post by Nobody Special »

:oops: I am an idiot. Nothing to see here, move along.
....what?



Blitz: Picking Simplicity taking pre-ins; PM for info. (0/13)
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Post Post #713 (ISO) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:46 pm

Post by TheFireRises »

Thanks for the advice, Micc. I was very suspicious of the guy you replaced, but it turned null the moment you came in and I sort of forgot about you, which I'm guessing was exactly what you wanted!

By the way, Nobody Special, not to pry, but at the end of page 1 the thread was locked for like an entire day and then the IC was replaced. What was up with that?
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Post Post #714 (ISO) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:59 pm

Post by Nobody Special »

paulw sent a PM to pieguyn about the game. Since this broke the out-of-game communication rule, they both had to be replaced. Due to a miscommunication (totally my fault), they weren't replaced simultaneously. (The "entire day" was taken up with me and Mina communicating. And miscommunicating.)
....what?



Blitz: Picking Simplicity taking pre-ins; PM for info. (0/13)
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Post Post #715 (ISO) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Post by TheFireRises »

Ah ok I was wondering. Anyways, thanks for moderating, it sounds hard.
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Post Post #716 (ISO) » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:45 am

Post by Mina »

Goodbye.

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