Mod Error Mafia [TM2015] - Game Over

[shos]

(sorry)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

V/LA for a few days. I have exams, plus a death on Grey's side of the family. I want to be there for him, not spending time on this game.

When I get back, I have a comment I want to make about NS' theory regarding me and Shos, but that requires brainspace and I don't have any remaining right now.

[Katsuki]

His theory makes a lot of sense actually from what my team is saying.

I'm just hoping we're not differing alignments here, but there's a distinct reality of you being scum here.

Take care, and pass my condolences onto GI for me~

[Katsuki]

I'll may drop off a reads list later at the airport to try and make things happen while I'm away. We have a LOT of townreads this game which is good.

I never post read lists as town so you guys better appreciate this.

[Cephrir]

1. You replied earlier that Mala hadn't given a read on Mollie in particular, so you did see the question, don't lie. I find it strange as she told me she knows Mollie's meta really well so I would expect that read from her to be a priority, I've been reading TTH for my teammates for instance as I have been playing with her a lot.

2. I am inferring you could be teammates.

Your second point here lacks depth for me. You do later mention having had to prod teammates to respond to your questions & etc. but I think this is a pretty quick conclusion to jump to.

@Shos
In your case weird is more likely to mean town as I said cause your stubborness to setup fish the votecount information despite the heat you are getting I think is something a town that gives no fucks and is playing for himself is more likely to do rather than a scumplayers.

This is why I want to attempt meta on shos. I know full well that I find meta fruitless 99% of the time, but shos is such an atypical player that I want to reassure myself whether his anomalousness is present as all alignments or is a towntell.

- T-Bone, the reason for his push on TS is the only somewhat alignment relevant post I got from him, I can understand not liking people asking fir pressure on you without doing so themselves, on the other hand he is also OMGUSing left right and centre when his play has little to reccomend for, also as Three-Pronged-Trouser-God in the hydra they controlled the conversation a lot more but I don't know how much of that was T-Bone.

Probably very little. No idea what my basis for this is but I fully expected T-Bone to lurk.

- LLD, I am not going to townread just because of her shenaningangs about being annoyed with the re-roll but many others are, she has been very mainstream with her pushes like shos, I am interested in her NS line if questioning because that is original content that should allow for a better read.

From my cursory meta, I came to the unfortunate conclusion that LLD's play is similar either way and I can't townread her for demeanor based reasons. In fact it gave me no real clues at all and on a philosophical basis she can't even be especially expected to bus or not bus. I am going to ignore this and try to read her as though I had not attempted it for lack of other options, but she may wind up being a POE read for me for this reason.

The Rhinox read in particular is a problem because it clashes with what my other townreads are saying so I'd like to know why he is town if you are townreading him (question for everyone).

I have liked his logical approach and find myself agreeing with him often though logical does not necessarily make him town and he lacks any emotional undertones to read on. In no small part I'm not concerned with him because other players have given me less reason for townreads. I can't recall whether we have heard what Tammy thinks of me or not but I'm interested.

[Rhinox]

I actually don't have anything concrete to present off the top of my head, I just remember scumreading him.

This is probably going to be more of a theory disagreement than me thinking it is alignment indicative so feel free to disregard, but c'mon man. You just got done telling me how important posting all the crap you did was because it is basically spitballing and the more you post the more fruitful it becomes, and... nothing? all that for nothing? You can't name one reason for tier being scum? So all your catchup up was basically useless if you're not actually going to use it for anything? Or are you just being lazy? If you're town you're supposed to be ya know trying to get other people to lynch your scumreads. Have you followed up on anything in your catchup posts? Do you even care? Do you even remember you asked me 2 things, 1 you labled "serious question time", that I just blew off? Is it not that serious to you?

you should know that I'm usually successful inscumreading him

Stuff like this does absolutely nothing for me.

---

I was talking about our little early day interactions

(you know the one where you misrepped my vote on copper ;P)

. Though I attributed Oversoul's reads that you posted as your own. But I hate blanket statements "we think PLAYER's entrance was awful" because that's just lazy.

THAT'S what you're hung up on? I mean I figured my use of the emoticon would be a dead giveaway that I was joking around there. I do think your vote was lazy with or without the explanation you gave, and I'm pretty sure that was the same thing oversoul was referring to when he said your entrance was awful, which is why I agreed with the assessment. But that early in the game all I was trying to say was stop being lazy and play better. I don't get why sharing my team reads, or referring to things we agree with with a "we" pronoun, is lazy. I'm more worried about the players who haven't referenced their team's thoughts at all. Its easy for 1 player as scum to fake appearing to be town. Its a lot harder to fake town on 4 different players' thoughts.

---

btw rhinox that post you thought was to you was to lld not ot you

also mollie what do you think of shos not making sense/blatantly misrepping the thread

can we lynch this?

can anyone give me a reason not to, in fact? in consideration of gameplay and claim?

Burden of proof is typically on the one wanting to lynch. Claim really says nothing about NS' alignment, and especially now that the condition of not being hated in lylo came out any justification there ever was for policy lynching the claim no longer exists, so the claim is not in my consideration at all. I'm not sure what you mean by consideration of gameplay so you'll need to explain that one.

---

You could also be some kind of 3rd party, but I doubt it because it would warp expected winrates too much for the overall Team Mafia scoring system.

What are we supposed to make of the fact that it is public knowledge that the distribution of alignments in this game is 10 town and 3 mafia with no 3rd parties, especially given that this was already talked about in thread?

---

I am never a fan of pbpa being an auto townread as you well know! the 1 thing that he has done that I liked was point out why he was sort of townreading cephrir. but other than that I don't think iceyrent is doing anything that super wows me into going "iceyrent is so town!" but then I am NOT the best at reading him. I am not sure about him giving a pass to reck but ugh.

Mollie I've asked you a couple times now for thoughts on shos (Tammy's request) and this post makes hearing your thoughts more important (I don't think I missed you giving them?). After shos started posting what was basically a pbpa all you had to say was "not lynching shos!" but now you say you're not a fan of pbpa being seen automatically as town in regards to ice. I'm wondering what you're seeing in shos posting that super wows you into going "not lynching shos!" that is so different from what you're not seeing from ice. Because IMO ice's posting is multitudes better than shos.

And also.... actually nevermind*. I thought I realized something but its probably nothing. Ask me about it later.

[Rhinox]

I feel like I'm starting to understand shos better now and I'm starting to doubt my read on him.

I agree with the sentiment that this game is becoming difficult because almost everyone is looking town. This is kinda making me want to start purging all the lurkers/active lurkers/ppl that keep popping in now and then but haven't really been doing anything. There's probably at least 1 scum in Cabd, Reck, LLD, and Tier.

UNVOTE: for now so I can reevaluate things.

And also it seems like everyone is going to be VLA this weekend but just a reminder

I'll be LA as well this weekend and every weekend

, but especially this weekend because I'm traveling out of town for my wife's baby shower so today after 4 until sometime sunday evening I probably won't be able to do much more than phonepost.

[Magua]

Vote Count 1.26

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Cabd (3): xRECKONERx, Cephrir, Iecerint
Katsuki (3): Lady Lambdadelta, TierShift, shos
TierShift (2): T-Bone, copper223
shos (1): Katsuki
Cephrir (1): notscience

Not Voting (3): Cabd, pirate mollie, Rhinox

V/LA: TierShift (April 12th), Katsuki (April 12th), Lady Lambdadelta (April 12th), Rhinox (April 12th)

Deadline for Day 1 is Wednesday, April 15th, at 12:00 noon EDT (site time).
Countdown to deadline:

(expired on 2015-04-15 11:00:00)

Name	Change	Score
Cabd	-	49
Cephrir	-	48
copper223	-	50
Iecerint	-	50
Katsuki	-	49
Lady Lambdadelta	-	52
notscience	-	50
pirate mollie	-	50
Rhinox	-	47
shos	-	53
T-Bone	-	51
TierShift	-	49
xRECKONERx	-	52

[Cabd]

Update: Fever breaking, will be stable enough to play this evening.

[Iecerint]

I agree that scum can sometimes interact awkwardly and/or not interact. That idea is kinda relevant to some of how I've thought about certain slots in this game (e.g., Reck's reference to Cabd when shos/katsuki were dominant).

IMO, that is pretty different than me and mollie this game because I have referenced her behavior multiple times (cf., my catch-up comments) and she has referenced me a few times (albeit mostly cuz NS asked her to IIRC). I am skeptical that the "ignoring-one-another" tell you're referencing applies when scum are explicitly ASKED to interact (as in the case if you asking me to ask Mala about mollie), but we can agree to disagree, I guess.

FWIW I don't have any personal insight into whether Mala reads mollie well. The only person I know of who I know has said he can read mollie well is Nacho. In the game I played with the two of them he intimidated her into making a crappy fakeclaim. I think the only game I've played with both mala and mollie was the Reckoning III invitational, and the only thing* from Mala's slot that I remember from that game is that she was I think hydra'd with Tammy, who had a total meltdown re: mollie and was grossly inappropriate. I don't even remember for certain that Mala was the other head of that hydra, though. It's the one that's named for Tammy's cat. This is relevant to the idea that I would feel awkward about asking Mala in particular.

* I now also remember that slot's very clever hypoclaim, which I later used in the game with Nacho and mollie. ^_^

mala was part of eaglekit (desp/mala hydra) who faked a cop guilty on me in the reckoning invitational, I think you are thinking of mina/tammy (waffles).

I had thought Desperafo was with kittymo, but yep, I mixed her up with Mina.

Mala is behind in her game and declined to comment for now, may get to it later.

[Iecerint]

@Rhinox - Well, I guess you can either infer that I faked it or that I'm super town. I don't remember the discussion and do vaguely recall that being in the rule set, but was only thinking about how Cephrir's behavior could be read in the moment. I added that because I thought broadly about what was possible.

I normally only play mafia games where the structure is unknown, so I do not normally reason with certainty about such things on D1. As town I like to post without reviewing the thread because I think it can lead to organic towntells based on ignorance.

Meta-wise, I have made similar errors as town recently, albeit later in the game when the likely number of scum had been changed by flips. As scum I did something similar intentional very late game in Dynasty Warriors. I might be more likely to miss the in-thread discussion as scum, but I'd definitely know the distribution as scum.

The town game was Coyote's Zodiac mafia I think. Not equivalent circumstances, but it's hard to replicate current circumstances obviously.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox - Well, I guess you can either infer that I faked it or that I'm super town. I don't remember the discussion and do vaguely recall that being in the rule set, but was only thinking about how Cephrir's behavior could be read in the moment. I added that because I thought broadly about what was possible.

I normally only play mafia games where the structure is unknown, so I do not normally reason with certainty about such things on D1.

As town I like to post without reviewing the thread because I think it can lead to organic towntells based on ignorance.

Meta-wise, I have made similar errors as town recently, albeit later in the game when the likely number of scum had been changed by flips. As scum I did something similar intentional very late game in Dynasty Warriors. I might be more likely to miss the in-thread discussion as scum, but I'd definitely know the distribution as scum.

The town game was Coyote's Zodiac mafia I think. Not equivalent circumstances, but it's hard to replicate current circumstances obviously.

I don't see how super town would be a conclusion from this one comment. I mean, if you're scum who didn't read the ruleset you'd know there were 3 of you but you wouldn't know anything about 3rd parties. However, I asked because earlier in the game you also had a "If scum have daytalk..." comment, and well it is also public knowledge that scum have daytalk, and it was also something that was talked about in the thread before you made the comment.

I don't really wanna play the wifom game but the bolded is interesting because if that's how you think as town then it seems reasonable it would also be something you would try to fake as scum. I know when I've played as scum that it was part of my gameplan to try to fake towntells and I can link you to one of my past scumgames where I talked about that in the post game. Normally I wouldn't even acknowledge something like this like when you made the first comment because once the discussion is started it really is nothing but wifom, but the fact that you've done this twice now and the fact that you think 'super town' should be a possible conclusion for the 3rd party comment does have me concerned.

[xRECKONERx]

It's really annoying to me that this mini theme has as many D1 posts as some large themes. It's making it hard to really keep up. The worst part is that, from looking through it, none of it is obnoxious spamposting. All of it is content, but it's making the game dense and hard to get into for me.

I have some town reads: mollie, Iecerint, copper, T-Bone, shos.

Everyone else is rather null-to-scum but all in one big grey goopy pile atm and I don't particularly see it getting any better.

[Cephrir]

I can't recall whether we have heard what Tammy thinks of me or not but I'm interested.

Not that you've gotten to it but I'll withdraw this question. There is no point to it, as Tammy would obviously know the right answer.

[shos]

I'd like people's opinions on the least and most posters.
namely, Cephrir - top poster, and {cabd, LLD, T-bone} least posters.

my reads on them are currently -
Ceph as town; I've already been through this thoroughly in my catchup posts.
cabd as null-town; simply because there was nothing that I can remember from him apart from the starting discussion on prior roles, which looked town motivated.
LLD as town; the only thing I remember from her is the comment (against me) about the figuring out of the score mechanic, and that was a hilariously townish post.
T-bone nothing. I got absolutely nothing there that I can remember.

[pirate mollie]

I am never a fan of pbpa being an auto townread as you well know! the 1 thing that he has done that I liked was point out why he was sort of townreading cephrir. but other than that I don't think iceyrent is doing anything that super wows me into going "iceyrent is so town!" but then I am NOT the best at reading him. I am not sure about him giving a pass to reck but ugh.

Mollie I've asked you a couple times now for thoughts on shos (Tammy's request) and this post makes hearing your thoughts more important (I don't think I missed you giving them?). After shos started posting what was basically a pbpa all you had to say was "not lynching shos!" but now you say you're not a fan of pbpa being seen automatically as town in regards to ice. I'm wondering what you're seeing in shos posting that super wows you into going "not lynching shos!" that is so different from what you're not seeing from ice. Because IMO ice's posting is multitudes better than shos.

And also.... actually nevermind*. I thought I realized something but its probably nothing. Ask me about it later.

I was never town reading shos cos of his pbpa catch I was not wanting to lynch shos cos he was happy to see me, usually a happy to see me shos is a town!shos and while it is not much and a little weak it is enough for me on d1 to not want to lynch him at this time w/o more info.

[shos]

Townpile:

Cephrir
Lady Lambdadelta

(Leaning town)pile:

Cabd

No idea yet, or still pondering pile:

copper223
Iecerint
Rhinox
T-Bone
mollie

(Leaning scum)pile:

TierShift

Scumpile:

notscience
Katsuki

Unique because I'm sortof townreading him and yet I'm sorta leaning scum on:

xRECKONERx

MOD,

any chance you change "Who" to "pirate mollie" in all the places where it is due?

[shos]

mollie love, when have I ever not been happy to see you?
there was one case where I was scum and played with you, but you were scum with me, so your statistics don't count much xD

[Cephrir]

It's shocking to me that you can possibly have zero read on all of Rhinox, copper, mollie and Iec.

I'm reading two and a half of them as town pretty handily.

[Magua]

MOD, any chance you change "Who" to "pirate mollie" in all the places where it is due?

The opening post, and the tables in vote counts 1.10 - 1.26, have been updated.

[pirate mollie]

mollie love, when have I ever not been happy to see you?
there was one case where I was scum and played with you, but you were scum with me, so your statistics don't count much xD

thats why I said it was weak and not much to go on but I am not wanting to lynch you on d1 but I wld think that if you were scum you wld be slightly more self-conscious cos you know if I get the teeniest niggle about you I will lynch you. BUT you are hitting the town notes so i am liking you for town at this point!

why are notty and katsuki stronger scumreads than tier whom you said you cld read well?

[pirate mollie]

It's shocking to me that you can possibly have zero read on all of Rhinox, copper, mollie and Iec.

I'm reading two and a half of them as town pretty handily.

I was wondering this too but shos and I often disagree on reads! sometimes he will work with me and sometimes he won't, I learned this in hu2 and hu1 I think. I think his readslist looks awful especially with lurkers being a good chunk of his townreads but bad reads /= scum.

[Iecerint]

@Rhinox - Well, I guess you can either infer that I faked it or that I'm super town. I don't remember the discussion and do vaguely recall that being in the rule set, but was only thinking about how Cephrir's behavior could be read in the moment. I added that because I thought broadly about what was possible.

I normally only play mafia games where the structure is unknown, so I do not normally reason with certainty about such things on D1.

As town I like to post without reviewing the thread because I think it can lead to organic towntells based on ignorance.

Meta-wise, I have made similar errors as town recently, albeit later in the game when the likely number of scum had been changed by flips. As scum I did something similar intentional very late game in Dynasty Warriors. I might be more likely to miss the in-thread discussion as scum, but I'd definitely know the distribution as scum.

The town game was Coyote's Zodiac mafia I think. Not equivalent circumstances, but it's hard to replicate current circumstances obviously.

I don't see how super town would be a conclusion from this one comment. I mean, if you're scum who didn't read the ruleset you'd know there were 3 of you but you wouldn't know anything about 3rd parties. However, I asked because earlier in the game you also had a "If scum have daytalk..." comment, and well it is also public knowledge that scum have daytalk, and it was also something that was talked about in the thread before you made the comment.

I don't really wanna play the wifom game but the bolded is interesting because if that's how you think as town then it seems reasonable it would also be something you would try to fake as scum. I know when I've played as scum that it was part of my gameplan to try to fake towntells and I can link you to one of my past scumgames where I talked about that in the post game. Normally I wouldn't even acknowledge something like this like when you made the first comment because once the discussion is started it really is nothing but wifom, but the fact that you've done this twice now and the fact that you think 'super town' should be a possible conclusion for the 3rd party comment does have me concerned.

You explicitly asked for my take on it (I guess not mine per se but), and I'm telling you that I think it's a towntell for me. You are free to think whatever you want obvs.

The closest thing I could think of as a time when I subverted this as scum was in the Dynasty Warriors game I mentioned, so I made an effort to give you appropriate scum meta on this, too. In that game there was a miller who flipped as a Wu faction (he forgot to claim miller, lol), and I spent the entire game believing in a mythological Wu faction even as it became obvious that it probably didn't exist (or rather, that if it existed, town was totally fucked). It's not quite the same as here obvs, but that's the closest thing to a willful subversion I can think of.

As scum in general I think I am more likely to confer with scumfriends about this kind of thing before acting because I generally find that the scrutiny that errors bring can be more trouble than they're worth -- especially because as town I'm comfortable making errors because I know I didn't make them for scummy reasons, but as scum any faked errors ultimately had some kind of scum motivation, so I am skeptical that a clever person couldn't parse the difference.

[notscience]

It's shocking to me that you can possibly have zero read on all of Rhinox, copper, mollie and Iec.

I'm reading two and a half of them as town pretty handily.

I was wondering this too but shos and I often disagree on reads! sometimes he will work with me and sometimes he won't, I learned this in hu2 and hu1 I think. I think his readslist looks awful especially with lurkers being a good chunk of his townreads but bad reads /= scum.

mastin says making shit up and misrepping the thread means town shos

So I don't know

[notscience]

Well rather, that is how I described shos in the PT and then mastin said that was town