In post 822, Scripten wrote:No. You actually went on in 812 to do exactly what you've asked me to provide examples of you doing. Why can't you just show us where a slip-up like yours happened in the thread? Do you believe that quoting this elusive post would change the answer Faustbyte gave in response to your questions?
During this rant did you even notice what just happened?
You mean Faust's explanation of his case on you? Maybe instead of (again) asking me to read your mind, you can just say what you're referring to, please?
Continuously having to guess at what you're referring to is tiresome.
I agree. Sometimes the only real weapon scum have is being confusing. If townies would avoid confusion at all costs it would make scum hunting so much easier.
Other than the obvious and necessary hiding of power roles until they are needed, but in that case the base way to avoid confusion is to say nothing about it.
In post 825, Scripten wrote:You mean Faust's explanation of his case on you? Maybe instead of (again) asking me to read your mind, you can just say what you're referring to, please?
Continuously having to guess at what you're referring to is tiresome.
Wow...mind reading.
Okay, well here's how I remember the conversation;
I asked some questions.
You asked me to explain something about said questions.
I said I wanted to see Faust's answer first.
Faust answered.
I responded to his answer.
You are incapable of looking at my response and drawing any conclusions yourself? Really? Say 'yes' and I'll answer...but, dude. Read.
I am still waiting for Faust to offer some thoughts on the VCA - I'll have my reads finalized at that stage.
I...hope everyone else is close too? I'll admit I'm having a hard time seeing where most of you are going, but once I get Faust's answer I'm planning to vote and force my belief unless someone says they'll also be ready and wants to discuss their thoughts with me at that stage.
In post 589, Thor665 wrote:What would you say if I wanted to lynch Faust today and no one else?
In post 591, Thor665 wrote:Let's say I did some VCA and he looked really bad due to it.
In post 595, Thor665 wrote:What if I showed a point where town had two large wagons.
One on town, and one on an unknown alignment player - and then I showed that literally everyone voting for the unknown alignment player was town.
Would that look pretty questionable to you?
Notice that I did not color myself. I know I'm green, but do not take it for granted that you believe me.
Let's follow that vote through to its conclusion.
It is now Night 1. All actions are due in (expired on 2014-08-10 14:30:00)
DC hammers.
1.06 Alayne and DC vote each other. (DC came off pants, Alayne came off Flubber)
1.07 No change in votecount
1.08 Faust moves from BBT to pants.
1.09 DC hammers.
In post 810, Scripten wrote:Did you even read my post? I quoted the question in that post. You never answered it. I asked if you still thought that BBT "lurking" was valid. You've determined that it's not worth answering and I disagree. I want to know the cases you're pushing.
My case has been, since the start of the game, about the VCA.
I never called him scummy for lurking, I said that I didn't find it helpful.
So basically you're asking me if I still find him lurking...even though it has nothing to do with my case on him.
I'm not sure what the pro-scum angle for me there is and you haven't clarified. You are correct that I dropped the issue totally and stopped discussing it - yet you seem confused as to whether it's part of my case for some reason...?
And, also, was that it? That's the only question you felt I've dodged in a pro-scum manner?
In post 810, Scripten wrote:I do agree the case is bad. So say it's bad, tell us what made you slip up, and let's move onto content. Unless you explain it, you're just letting Faust push the case harder. If you shut it down, you can respond by scumhunting. All you're doing is getting into a pissing match, just like what's happened for the last two lynches.
What's the deal with pushing the idea your case is VCA, without the actual analysis?
If you do the actual analysis like I did, a completely different conclusion can (and I argue should) be drawn.
Copying that progression summary again.
1.06 Alayne and DC vote each other. (DC came off pants, Alayne came off Flubber)
1.07 No change in votecount
1.08 Faust moves from BBT to pants.
1.09 DC hammers.
Let's assume I'm right about Scripten. If I'm wrong then we're almost certainly lost.
Scum combo 1: BBT and Faust
Scum Faust has to bus his partner, coming off someone who was at L-2, and leave it there at L-2 until someone else ties. Seems unlikely that Faust would play it like this. But it could also be a really ballsy bus followed by some bad timing.
Scum combo 2: BBT and Thor (Alayne)
Scum BBT has a pretty reasonable case on town Pants. Scum Alayne/Thor stays safely away from the wagon. This seems totally plausible. Thor voting BBT at the beginning of today would then be totally scripted, just like Faust commented on. They could have been looking at the site homepage and ready to end the charade as soon as two or more of us popped up.
Scum combo 3: Thor (Alayne) and Faust
Scum Faust moved from one townie to another to create a L-1. That seems quite reasonable. But then Scum Thor is now pressing Faust about this vote. All this scum team would have to do is manufacture a case against BBT and they'd probably win. It seems rather implausible that Thor would attack Faust, and that Faust would fail to go along with BBT.
Examining BBT + Thor further, it's entirely possible that they could have been discussing how to play this LYLO in terms of "remember what scum did to Brian that one time, let's play it that way" and then Thor slipped.
To summarize, if I read Scripten wrong then I think scum win because this VCA and PoE depend totally on the assumption he's town.
The only scum combo which makes good sense is BBT+Thor, even though it does require a big gambit at the beginning of day.
In post 829, Thor665 wrote:
Wow...mind reading.
Okay, well here's how I remember the conversation;
I asked some questions.
You asked me to explain something about said questions.
I said I wanted to see Faust's answer first.
Faust answered.
I responded to his answer.
Thank you for summarizing events. Did you, at any point, bring up the other instance in which someone's name was misspoken? If you did, please quote it to me. If you did not, then could you kindly do so?
In post 829, Thor665 wrote:
You are incapable of looking at my response and drawing any conclusions yourself? Really? Say 'yes' and I'll answer...but, dude. Read.
My conclusion is that your exchange with Faustbyte was nearly useless. You accepted his logic and everyone moved on with barely any more information. Faust's push was incredibly sanitary, so his read hasn't changed in my mind. How about you elucidate on what you gained from it? Maybe I missed something. And while you're at it, could you quote that post you mentioned as having made the same slip as you? I have not been able to find it and I'd like context.
Davesaz:
I have a few comments on your post as well. I'll get to that ASAP.
In post 830, Thor665 wrote:I am still waiting for Faust to offer some thoughts on the VCA - I'll have my reads finalized at that stage.
I...hope everyone else is close too? I'll admit I'm having a hard time seeing where most of you are going, but once I get Faust's answer I'm planning to vote and force my belief unless someone says they'll also be ready and wants to discuss their thoughts with me at that stage.
I have had my reads for quite some time.
I know who I want to lynch between.
I think it's a bad idea for you to announce you're going to be placing a vote (and even worse to actually follow through with it). I think we should try to come to some sort of agreement before any votes are placed.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
1.06 Alayne and DC vote each other. (DC came off pants, Alayne came off Flubber)
1.07 No change in votecount
1.08 Faust moves from BBT to pants.
1.09 DC hammers.
Let's assume I'm right about Scripten. If I'm wrong then we're almost certainly lost.
Scum combo 1: BBT and Faust
Scum Faust has to bus his partner, coming off someone who was at L-2, and leave it there at L-2 until someone else ties. Seems unlikely that Faust would play it like this. But it could also be a really ballsy bus followed by some bad timing.
Early game votes are not quite as dangerous as I feel you're implying. That said, I can see this setup being true.
Scum combo 2: BBT and Thor (Alayne)
Scum BBT has a pretty reasonable case on town Pants. Scum Alayne/Thor stays safely away from the wagon. This seems totally plausible. Thor voting BBT at the beginning of today would then be totally scripted, just like Faust commented on. They could have been looking at the site homepage and ready to end the charade as soon as two or more of us popped up.
This is possible. That said, I feel like that sort of risky almost-bus would be too dangerous in a LyLo situation. I am leaning toward BBT or Thor being scum, but probably not both.
Scum combo 3: Thor (Alayne) and Faust
Scum Faust moved from one townie to another to create a L-1. That seems quite reasonable. But then Scum Thor is now pressing Faust about this vote. All this scum team would have to do is manufacture a case against BBT and they'd probably win. It seems rather implausible that Thor would attack Faust, and that Faust would fail to go along with BBT.
Ehh... Thor's press on Faust hasn't been particularly strong. It may be play style, but neither feels to me like they are trying to form solid cases on one another.
Examining BBT + Thor further, it's entirely possible that they could have been discussing how to play this LYLO in terms of "remember what scum did to Brian that one time, let's play it that way" and then Thor slipped.
I honestly feel like Thor's slip up was less a scum slip than it was an honest, if admittedly strange mistake.
In post 831, davesaz wrote:umm, was this supposed to be green=town, black=scum? There are only 2 scum, so where's the scum setup?
Here's my view of the same vote. Key: black = unknown, green = mod confirmed town:
Okay, so you understand that green=town as a universal idea.
But you appear unsure that red=mafia and black=null...so you act confused by it and ask me about my black presuming it means mafia and pointing out how there are then too many Mafia.
You then use black=null.
Whut?
In post 829, Thor665 wrote:
You are incapable of looking at my response and drawing any conclusions yourself? Really? Say 'yes' and I'll answer...but, dude. Read.
My conclusion is that your exchange with Faustbyte was nearly useless. You accepted his logic and everyone moved on with barely any more information. Faust's push was incredibly sanitary, so his read hasn't changed in my mind. How about you elucidate on what you gained from it? Maybe I missed something.
And while you're at it, could you quote that post you mentioned as having made the same slip as you? I have not been able to find it and I'd like context.
Could you tell me what you think my response to him about that issue means?
In post 834, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I think it's a bad idea for you to announce you're going to be placing a vote (and even worse to actually follow through with it). I think we should try to come to some sort of agreement before any votes are placed.
I thought you had decided to stop discussing your reads with me.
If not - I certainly welcome the conversation and have not tried to oppose that conversation at any point.
In post 836, Thor665 wrote:
I thought you had decided to stop discussing your reads with me.
If not - I certainly welcome the conversation and have not tried to oppose that conversation at any point.
I feel you're pretty difficult to work with and also pretty set on you reads.
That post wasn't directed at you personally, it was directed to town to think before we act.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
So that boils down to you think Thor+Faust is the more likely combo?
I do agree that Thor's claim that he's the only one driving things, and appearance of pushing Faust, seem more like playing at town vs. actually pressing cases. And I agree he's being evasive, even when he's defending against evasiveness.
With Thor+Faust, I'd question Faust bringing up the slip. The only thing this scum team can gain from centering attention back on the slip is to discredit me. I suppose it's possible the play could be that Faust gets BBT to vote me, then Thor hammers. But it could swing the other way, with everyone going after Thor as the one who made the actual slip. The one thing it does give Faust in endgame is cred towards fingering the scum. So that's one way this scum team could survive an accurate lynch today.
So that boils down to you think Thor+Faust is the more likely combo?
I do agree that Thor's claim that he's the only one driving things, and appearance of pushing Faust, seem more like playing at town vs. actually pressing cases. And I agree he's being evasive, even when he's defending against evasiveness.
With Thor+Faust, I'd question Faust bringing up the slip. The only thing this scum team can gain from centering attention back on the slip is to discredit me. I suppose it's possible the play could be that Faust gets BBT to vote me, then Thor hammers. But it could swing the other way, with everyone going after Thor as the one who made the actual slip. The one thing it does give Faust in endgame is cred towards fingering the scum. So that's one way this scum team could survive an accurate lynch today.
I wrote a sentence without referent there.
The one thing (voting Thor) does give Faust in endgame is cred towards fingering the scum.
In post 830, Thor665 wrote:I am still waiting for Faust to offer some thoughts on the VCA - I'll have my reads finalized at that stage.
I...hope everyone else is close too? I'll admit I'm having a hard time seeing where most of you are going, but once I get Faust's answer I'm planning to vote and force my belief unless someone says they'll also be ready and wants to discuss their thoughts with me at that stage.
I have had my reads for quite some time.
I know who I want to lynch between.
I think it's a bad idea for you to announce you're going to be placing a vote (and even worse to actually follow through with it). I think we should try to come to some sort of agreement before any votes are placed.
In post 836, Thor665 wrote:
I thought you had decided to stop discussing your reads with me.
If not - I certainly welcome the conversation and have not tried to oppose that conversation at any point.
I feel you're pretty difficult to work with and also pretty set on you reads.
That post wasn't directed at you personally, it was directed to town to think before we act.
Is being set on reads a good thing or bad?
Do you compare the quality of your evidence and logic against others' cases?
Is being difficult to work with a town behavior? Have other players made the same observation about people being difficult to work with (either same or different targets of that observation)?
Your case on me seems to be merely that I made a weak case on Faust but didn't give up so easily on you. Is that really your only case? Have you been paying attention to me since that point? If my problem was going to bat before I'm ready, is waiting to gather more information before trying to present a case an improvement? Can you honestly say you still think I'm trying to skate by on weak cases?
I don't remember, who is your other candidate(s)? Care to refresh our memory of what you're reads are? Or are you going to be difficult and make us search?
In post 841, davesaz wrote:
Is being set on reads a good thing or bad?
Do you compare the quality of your evidence and logic against others' cases?
Is being difficult to work with a town behavior? Have other players made the same observation about people being difficult to work with (either same or different targets of that observation)?
Your case on me seems to be merely that I made a weak case on Faust but didn't give up so easily on you. Is that really your only case? Have you been paying attention to me since that point? If my problem was going to bat before I'm ready, is waiting to gather more information before trying to present a case an improvement? Can you honestly say you still think I'm trying to skate by on weak cases?
I don't remember, who is your other candidate(s)? Care to refresh our memory of what you're reads are? Or are you going to be difficult and make us search?
Being set on reads is bad if you're not willing to co-operate with other people.
I do consider other players reads/cases. This should be evident from my change in read on Faust.
Being difficult to work with is null. It's a playstyle thing.
My cases basically boil down to PoE, which is why I can't really do much to change other people's opinions. I don't think Thor is scum, I have town-read that slot from very early on. I have seen nothing, other than Thor's ridiculous vote at the start of D3, that would change my mind.
When everybody was willing to lynch Faust, that didn't sit right with me. I am leaning town on Faust as well.
Reads: Scum -> Dave, Scripten, Faust, Thor <- Town
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
In post 832, Scripten wrote:
My conclusion is that your exchange with Faustbyte was nearly useless. You accepted his logic and everyone moved on with barely any more information. Faust's push was incredibly sanitary, so his read hasn't changed in my mind. How about you elucidate on what you gained from it? Maybe I missed something.
And while you're at it, could you quote that post you mentioned as having made the same slip as you? I have not been able to find it and I'd like context.
Could you tell me what you think my response to him about that issue means?
My perspective is that you viewed his logic as either a null or town tell. Either way, you felt it prudent to move your... scumhunting elsewhere. Am I incorrect?
Also, since you seem to be missing it, I'll make my (and Davesaz's) request a little more visible.
CAN YOU PLEASE QUOTE THE POST WHERE SOMEONE ELSE MAKES A SLIP UP SIMILAR TO THE ONE YOU MADE?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
Davesaz:
It feels like Thor is making it his goal this game to make himself as difficult as possible to work with.
That tells me that the Thor read is probably legit, the read on me is clearly bogus. So your partner is either Faust (likely) or Scripten (less likely IMHO).
I'm ready to vote BBT. There is no way, with this much content, that the only scum reads are PoE. I'm confident enough of this to be willing to lose proudly if I'm wrong. Continuing to let doubt grow is playing right into scum hands.
In post 836, Thor665 wrote:
I thought you had decided to stop discussing your reads with me.
If not - I certainly welcome the conversation and have not tried to oppose that conversation at any point.
I feel you're pretty difficult to work with and also pretty set on you reads.
That post wasn't directed at you personally, it was directed to town to think before we act.
Soooo...no, you *don't* wish to discuss reads with me.
You just wanted to empty complain to sound town or something?
My reads are now more about pairs than not.
On a solo scale - I find his pedantry frustrating, but it feels like he's coming from a town mindset with it. I think he's selectively ignoring some logic, which is worrisome, and I'm poking in that direction to see what I see.
Currently I lean town.
In post 843, Scripten wrote:My perspective is that you viewed his logic as either a null or town tell. Either way, you felt it prudent to move your... scumhunting elsewhere. Am I incorrect?
No, that info was certainly there, though so was other info that you appear incapable of processing or unwilling to assess.
In post 843, Scripten wrote:Also, since you seem to be missing it, I'll make my (and Davesaz's) request a little more visible.
CAN YOU PLEASE QUOTE THE POST WHERE SOMEONE ELSE MAKES A SLIP UP SIMILAR TO THE ONE YOU MADE?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
I have answered this, you just can't seem to realize it.
Out of curiosity though, you do think we're a scum team that makes sense, yeah?
You have noticed that whether you think my push on Faust is legit or not (I will presume you don't think it's legit) that I am the only player Faust has bothered to make an open run at today.
I'm also the only player trying to force him to state his thoughts.
Why do you see that as scum/scum exactly? Because it seems to do everything to suggest the opposite. You're taking this all as a beard on our part?
