inbetweeners mafia Game Over - Bully for you!

[Faraday]

Even if I'd shot AO the game still resulted in a town loss <_< So, q_q.

[Faraday]

MOI was more than likely going to kill Agent Orange, he had said so in a PM to me explaining his actions as a gambit.... however since no official action was able to be submitted by him Sotty and I agreed that an official submission had to be made AFTER the lynch and not from a 'probably' earlier in the game.

Maybe he should faked his guilty on him!

[Mr_Ree]

Perfect! Good game everyone!

MOI had me at one point. I think what saved me was when he hammered me as town in a previous game. Made him think twice. That was the only game I lost on site.

Fonz expected to be nightkilled almost every night. We made strategies in case he did but thankfully it never came to that.

[AgentOrange]

Played horribly. Oh well. GG other scum team was sure Fonz was town.

[jasonT1981]

I would like to take this time to shameless plug my upcoming games

How two and a half friends banged your mother! - The Ultimate Cross over Mafia Game

A mini, and large theme UPick, Mini is an open UPick and the large is a closed UPick draft.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=425

[Faraday]

agentorange i really like your username + avatar combination btw. (totally serious)

[Sotty7]

MOI you're a fucking spastic.

To elaborate, it was a total power play presumably. You knew even if you were wrong that was 2 chances to play the hero. What the hell? Remember when you were a good player and didn't do stupid anti town gambits for the 'lulz'. Hopefully part of why you site flaked is because you were embarassed to come back here. At least I technically never got lynched! (Sorry again, Yates. I had Pere/DLM/Fonz fairly solidly town, AO confirmed town due to set-up stuff and thought it was ree/yates. Whoops!)

(Also in fairness, I'd have probably not shot if given the chance, assuming my shot would end the game if wrong ._.)

Agree

Had high hops for the town even after I died to be honest but it wasn't to be. Enjoyed it though, well played guys.

[Faraday]

(as an aside hopefully if you didn't die or w/e even if you did fake a guilty :p )

[Mr_Ree]

Sorry Sotty. What can i say but you got it right. You called Fonz and I day 1 so you had to go.

[Xisiqomelir]

No blame on you Faraday, you didn't really have a lot of time to catch up.

I will second that 9:2:2 is pretty rough for town. GJ Fonz/Ree team though, both played well, Fonz especially.

MagnaofIllusion...I am disappoint.

[Sotty7]

Sorry Sotty. What can i say but you got it right. You called Fonz and I day 1 so you had to go.

Fonz did really well to act so town after his awful start to the game. I would feel good about catching him after one post if the town had actually won. The loss makes it meh.

[ThAdmiral]

Well I'm annoyed with MoI as I'm sure everyone else is, but credit to the winning scumteam. My reads were pretty far off all game.

Fonz knows my secret weakness which is that when you defend/buddy me I will think you are town 100% of the time. He also used this to good effect in politics mafia.

[Mr_Ree]

I've got to admit, I figured that out too. Thanks for the defense. If not for you and Zang I probably would have been lynched.

Fonz was the main reason we won. His knowledge of the players and possible setups made all the difference.

[The Fonz]

Sorry Sotty. What can i say but you got it right. You called Fonz and I day 1 so you had to go.

Fonz did really well to act so town after his awful start to the game. I would feel good about catching him after one post if the town had actually won. The loss makes it meh.

I'm really not sure what was so scummy about that. I'd guessed from the number on my team and the rolename there was a second team, and I was trying to ascertain if MOI was on it. To do that, I wanted to know if he was actually trying to get Furcolow lynched straight off the bat for being him, or just doing it 'To create discussion.' In order to do that, I wanted to know if MOI had had a particularly bad experience with Furcolow lately (which would imply the former) or not. MOI is someone who uses a lot of meta and is influenced heavily by previous experience with other players.

I'd have much more sympathy for the hard line, that Furc is so bad he had to go ASAP regardless of alignment. Furc is just a really terrible choice for a day one pressure wagon as I outlined in my follow up posts to that, and MOI knows that - hence it would have been a really strong scum indicator on him. The best way to appear to be scumhunting as scum is to actually scumhunt, and that's what I was doing. FWIW I had AO as scum too by the end, as our QT would suggest, though perhaps for erroneous reasons. Though "Doc and JK rarely both appear as town in a mini" is a good rule of thumb.

The process of deduction by which I chose to kill PV was that if the rival scumteam didn't kill either of us, we win either way. If they killed Ree, I was confident I could win an endgame (or rather, a no-lynch then shootout in the case where the guy we shoot isn't scum) So the situation I was worried about was the one where I get shot and Ree is in the last three. In THAT scenario, if Pere was town, he was almost certain to vote Ree, and if scum shoot him, therefore regardless of his actual alignment, he was the biggest threat to us winning the game.

Disagree with those saying 9-2-2 needs lots of town power. After all, Mountainous multiball is hardly unwinnable for town at 8-2-2. The thing you have to remember here is while we played pretty well as a team, we had a lot of luck. The town doctor ended up being a net negative for town because it stopped me getting crosskilled, and the venge-T was an obvious negative, handing us three dead town without us having to do anything. That's pretty much the worst possible outcome for that combination of town power. (Even keeping MOI alive night one didn't help given what he went on to do). If I die night two, town probably wins.

In MOI's defence, he was obviously absolutely convinced ThAd was scum. A two-for-one is probably a wash for town, therefore, that's arguably the percentage play for town if you're sufficiently confident that your top read is scum, and if he isn't then your second read is. It's not actually detrimental that often, it's just that when it is, it's "Kills town single-handedly" level detrimental.

@ThAd: It had very little to do with you, and everything to do with the fact that I find almost anything MOI says unconvincing at a gut level. He nearly always appears to me to be acting deliberately dishonestly, even as town. This is a bias I try to correct for in reading him, but it sure as hell means I'm going to have a hard time buying any lynch he's selling, in fact him pushing any candidate probably makes me more likely to think they're town. 90% of his case I pretty much dismissed outright as either a wrong scumtell or confirmation bias, but there was something to the 'Never ever used the tell before as town' line of argument. It was only on a really careful reading of the past game MOI brought up, and wholesale rejection of the way he framed your use of the tell in that case, that I decided it was bad. Even so, after that I'd convinced myself you were rival scum for other reasons - I had been planning to push your lynch anyway the day MOI faked his guilty. Well, that and the fact that I realised you were completely right about MOI, and he's very easy to handle as scum by simply agreeing with him. Early on, I played as I would as town, and he was all over me. Later, I switched to playing in a way calculated to appeal to MOI specifically, and it worked a lot better. Note that he supported THE EXACT SAME WAGON I was pushing earlier when I justified it in terms of 'Ree is faking newbishness' rather than 'Ree is opportunistic and not scumhunting.'

It's worth noting that for future town games, actually - assuming MOI is OK and comes back to the site at some point. There is just no point arguing with MOI about the relative validity of the tells you like and the tells he likes, it will become long, attritional, frustrating and bitter between the two of you. If you want to get him onside, you have to make the appeal in terms of the kind of tells he himself uses because he will just never, ever admit he's wrong.

There are good aspects to this kind of personality - he's quite hard to shake as scum - but in the long run I think it makes him less effective, because scum can simply agree with him as long as he's going after town and kill him as soon as he looks like he might be about to figure things out. That's a problem with any 'town leader' type, but it's particularly problematic with MOI because he tends to be so divisive, splitting the town into pro and anti-MOI camps in nearly every game. If he's right day one, just bus, because he's likely to lynch through all the people who disagreed with him before he even thinks of attacking someone who supported him in going after scum.

[jasonT1981]

The way I see it, I am not going to be annoyed over MOIs actions. He staged a gambit, one he fully believed would work and it didn't. I think he was that confident of the scum flip he faked the guilty, knowing if he was wrong he would be lynched the next day and have a vengeful kill which I believe he would have used to kill AngentOrange (though nothing official was submitted) I believe that was his intention. That he would get scum either way in his gambit. And truely believed he was doing the right thing for town, and playing within both his wincon (As I believe he did have town interests at heart) and role conditions that he would get a kill on who he thought was scum

On a personal note, I hope nothing serious is wrong with his disappearance from the site and he gets back soon. I always enjoy having him in my games as has been one of the many regulars who play in my games.

[Yates]

Sorry for shooting you Yates, had very little time to read the thread and make a decison and I couldn't even post in the thread to ask people questions. It kinda sucked, but so did my aim.

Dude - we were screwed anyway. You are a hero for replacing in to a lynched slot and I can't possibly fault you for having less than stellar aim under those conditions. Frankly, I'm going to blame MoI for my death anyway.

[The Fonz]

Though if Faraday had had time to read through thoroughly, it should have been apparent that Yates was actually the most obvtown player in the game. The whole farrago with the fake implied doc claim was clearly town motivated, if derpy.

[Yates]

The whole farrago with the fake implied doc claim was clearly town motivated, if derpy.

Yup. Which is why I intend to use it as scum... some day...

[ThAdmiral]

@ ree: guess its not such a secret any more!
don't worry about thanking me for the defence, hopefully you will return the favor one day when I'm scum

@ fonz: good analysis of moi. only recently I derived great pleasure from using his self-belief against the town when I was scum. let him drive the train against a bunch of town then killed him when he started to cotton on. don't get my wrong, I know we were at each others throats all game but I still think he's a great player and I have a lot of respect for him. If he is taking a break from playing its not the worst idea. He has been weaker than his usual self of late, from what I've seen, so I think he can come back strong with a fresh outlook.

[ThAdmiral]

oh and I totally forgot to thank the mod. @ Jason: I guess I'm just used to you hosting games that play out smoothly and without incident! seriously, keep up the good work, and if you have any games upcoming pre-in me.

[The Fonz]

The other thing about MOI is that he had me, you, Lanthamrunorang as his top three scum suspects day one, wanted to lynch Furcolow on principle, and went for Ree later (admittedly only after largely scaling back his suspicion of me). So apart from you, MOI, he only ever really went after scum. That's truly excellent scumhunting. And yet on balance, his presence in this game ended up being largely a net negative for town. Part of that is because he based his play primarily around the one wrong read, but more than that, I think it exemplifies how heroball mafia just doesn't work. Even when the guy who takes over the town is 80% right, it's basically impossible for one person to win the game single handedly.

[Sotty7]

The way I see it, I am not going to be annoyed over MOIs actions. He staged a gambit, one he fully believed would work and it didn't. I think he was that confident of the scum flip he faked the guilty, knowing if he was wrong he would be lynched the next day and have a vengeful kill which I believe he would have used to kill AngentOrange (though nothing official was submitted) I believe that was his intention. That he would get scum either way in his gambit. And truely believed he was doing the right thing for town, and playing within both his wincon (As I believe he did have town interests at heart) and role conditions that he would get a kill on who he thought was scum

On a personal note, I hope nothing serious is wrong with his disappearance from the site and he gets back soon. I always enjoy having him in my games as has been one of the many regulars who play in my games.

I would agree with this if he hadn't pulled the same gambit in another game as town.

Fonz's break down of MoI is 100% on the ball.

[PeregrineV]

@Jason- Thanks for running this. Wasn't expecting the 2 scumteams, and thought for sure Agent was town and only his night choice would save the game after the vengeful kill.

[PeregrineV]

Town for now:

The Fonz

MagnaofIllusion
ThAdmiral
Yates
Xisiqomelir
Jarvis
Zang

Want to lynch:

Furc

Scum:

Mr_Ree

Null/squnity-eyed:LynchMe, Sotty,

Amrun

@TheFonz- I hope you'll understand from now on when I proclaim you fully town during a game and want to lynch you anyway.....

[The Fonz]

Well, I'm actually going to take quite a lot of a break from playing on-site. My hospital placement (I'm a student nurse) began a week ago, and I've had very little time for anything other than work and my debating hobby. So you might not get the chance.

Generally the thing with me (barring multiscum lulz like this game or doc protects) is if I'm still alive on day three of a mini or four of a large with hardly anyone suspecting me, I'm either scum or COMPLETELY wrong on who the scum is. It's why the constant wars between MOI and I are from an outsider's perspective quite funny - for all the rage and thousands of characters expended arguing between us, neither one of us has ever got the other lynched as either alignment.