[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Max]

Dual-Mafia

- 13 players, day start

2 x East Mafia
1 x East Cop

2 x West Mafia
1 x West Cop

6 x Townie
1 x CPR Doc

[zwetschenwasser]

I take it the cops are town?

[somestrangeflea]

You know, if the East/West Cops are can only pick up East/West Mafia, then you may as well call them Cop/Seer and just run a Mafia/Werewolves game, for simplicity's sake.

[Max]

O.k.

Mafia and Werewolves Fight Again

2 x Mafia
1 x Cop

2 x Werewolves
1 x Seer

6 x Townie
1 x CPR Healer (As Docs can only heal mafia kills)

[shaft.ed]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1 Doc
5 Townies


Also was JDodge's set up really that broken? The only rule I saw missing was how do you resolve an even numbered lynch. If that was handled then the set up wasn't broken and the scum win, meaning JDodge's breaking strategy actually lost the game for the town.

[Adel]

@JDodge, now that you've proven that you can push a broken setup of your design through the review process:

1. What lessons do you think we should learn from this?

2. Which broken Open Game setups motivated you to try your experiment?

3. What other ways did you try to address the problem before you resorted to your experiment?

4. Do you recommend this kind of "destructive testing" to other scummers who think they have identified a problem with some aspect of the site?

1. We need more oversight of the open game queue.

2. None, I just saw the flaw and wanted it fixed.

3. I did not, as I felt other methods of addressing the problem would just be met with a resounding "THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST".

4. Only in extreme cases, and when done with extreme caution.

then it was a potential problem, and you wanted to fix it. Why didn't you answer Caboose's questions in the thread or participate in the conversation about your setup?

All you proved is that you could leverage your (formerly) good name and reputation to get your crap setup into the queue. It was not a controlled experiment at all. It is an immature prank.

A person could potentially enter your home and kill you in your sleep with a long knife. I think that is a problem, and should be fixed, but I don't think you would believe me if I told you about the problem in an attempt to warn you of the danger.

Oman nailed it. I agree that the open game process needs a more rigor, and I am a natural supporter for most reform efforts, but your stunt would draw a soft ban from MD if I had the power to ban people.

The Open Game design process does need more rigor. For example I think the results of the other open games that had two scum groups of two players (mountianuous multiball, carbon-14 to name two) should be looked at and considered before nominating Two Fold Mafia.

[shaft.ed]

I actually played in the original two fold mafia. It came down to a 3 player end game. I realize the other multiballs didn't go so well, but I think having the threat of cops and a Doc changes priority of scum NK's away from entirely trying to crosskill.

[Caboose]

I thought up this set-up, and it seemed pretty neat in my mind:

Skum & scum

1 Goon
1 Serial Killer
4 Townies
1 Cop
1 SK Cop

Each cop has one-shot NK immunity.
Serial Killer is NK immune
Both cops are sane
Cop finds out if the investigated player is anti-town or pro-town (i.e. gets guilty on both Goon and SK)
SK Cop finds out if the investigated player is the SK or not.
If the SK Cop finds the SK, he gets a 100% success rate kamikaze daykill for the SK only, simply by posting

daykill: (sk's username goes here)

in any post. Both the SK and the SK Cop will die. If the SK is lynched, the SK cop becomes a standard sane cop.

Thoughts? It's probably far from perfect...

This might have some potential, but the goon looks kind of screwed in this game especially since the SK is NK immune and the cop has 1 shot NK immunity. I suggest taking out the cop and adding another goon.

2 Goons
1 SK
4 Townies
1 SK Cop

After typing this out, I realize that this is the "baby too much scum" set-up.

Maybe we could keep the cop:

1 Mafia GF
1 Goon
1 SK
1 Cop
1 FBI Agent (SK Cop)
4 Townies

GF is investigation immune. The SK has one-shot NK immunity.

[ac1983fan]

I thought up this set-up, and it seemed pretty neat in my mind:

Skum & scum

1 Goon
1 Serial Killer
4 Townies
1 Cop
1 SK Cop

Each cop has one-shot NK immunity.
Serial Killer is NK immune
Both cops are sane
Cop finds out if the investigated player is anti-town or pro-town (i.e. gets guilty on both Goon and SK)
SK Cop finds out if the investigated player is the SK or not.
If the SK Cop finds the SK, he gets a 100% success rate kamikaze daykill for the SK only, simply by posting

daykill: (sk's username goes here)

in any post. Both the SK and the SK Cop will die. If the SK is lynched, the SK cop becomes a standard sane cop.

Thoughts? It's probably far from perfect...

This might have some potential, but the goon looks kind of screwed in this game especially since the SK is NK immune and the cop has 1 shot NK immunity. I suggest taking out the cop and adding another goon.

2 Goons
1 SK
4 Townies
1 SK Cop

After typing this out, I realize that this is the "baby too much scum" set-up.

Maybe we could keep the cop:

1 Mafia GF
1 Goon
1 SK
1 Cop
1 FBI Agent (SK Cop)
4 Townies

GF is investigation immune. The SK has one-shot NK immunity.

I actually thought of an alteration to your second set up:
1 Goon
1 Traitor
1 SK
1 Cop
1 FBI Agent (SK Cop)
4 Townies

The goon does not know who the traitor is, the traitor knows who the goon is and cannot be nightkilled by the goon and turns up innocent initially. If the goon dies, the traitor takes over the goon's role and can send in the night kill.

That seems a little bit more balanced to me.

[Oman]

I can agree with the outcome without agreeing with the means. I'm versatile like that.

[Adel]

I actually played in the original two fold mafia. It came down to a 3 player end game. I realize the other multiballs didn't go so well, but I think having the threat of cops and a Doc changes priority of scum NK's away from entirely trying to crosskill.

awesome game, thanks for the link. I didn't know it had been run before. I think the number of replacements as well as the obvious (missed Doc and CopA night moves) threw off the balance. I thought you were just rebranding Max's setup.

Thanks for identifying that the setup Max suggested had been used before.

~~~

Nominate Carbon 14

2 Mafia Goons or Werewolves
1 Cop (Only gets guilty on Mafia Goon)
1 Seer (Only gets guilty on Werewolf)
3 Townies

it has been run twice:
Open 107 (10 pages)
and
Open 96 -- Carbon-14 (Game over) before 703 (7 pages)
for 1 town win and 1 scum win.

~~~
the last run of Mountainous Multiball (2 Mafia 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies) Open 72 was a pretty good game, and was won by scum. I think that makes the series 2-1 for town. Would anyone be interested in playing it again?

~~~
the last run of Quack Multiball looked pretty interesting. Open 66

Two goons have the following.

You and your partner (player) are members of the mafia. You may converse during the night phase, and decide between yourselves whose name to send me as your target to kill. You win once there are no werewolves left and your group makes up half of the players alive.

Two werewolves got this.

You and your packmate (player) are werewolves. You may converse during the night phase, and decide between yourselves whose name to send me as your target to kill. You win once there is no more mafia and your group makes up half of the players alive.

Two quacks were told this.

You are a doctor. You may send me the name of someone each night that you'd like to save from death. You win once there are no werewolves or goons left to threaten you and the other doctors.

Six doctors received this.

You are a doctor. You may send me the name of someone each night that you'd like to save from death. You win once there are no werewolves or goons left to threaten you and the other doctors.

As you can see, the quack doctor message and the true doctor message are startlingly different. Thus, you should have no trouble realizing if you are a quack and that therefore you will kill your fellow doctors rather than potentially save them when you target them. Don't worry about the mafia or the poor werewolves, though, as they will not be affected by your incompetence should you happen to target them.

Also note that one doctor's action will reverse one killing action only. Thus, if someone is targeted by only one doctor, but by more than one killer (mafia, werewolf, or quack) then they will die. However, if two or more doctors protect the single victim of two attacks, the target player will survive.

Doctors may not protect themselves.

does anyone else want to see it run again?

[Max]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1

CPR

Doc
5 Townies

It adds a layer of wifom, which is always necessary when there are cops and docs

[Caboose]

Question about Quack Multiball: If a quack targets Doctor A and Doctor B also targets Doctor A, will doctor A die?

[shaft.ed]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1

CPR

Doc
5 Townies

It adds a layer of wifom, which is always necessary when there are cops and docs

that's too much kiling. Basically the game will come down to whether or not the mafia were crosskilled and have very little to do with day time play.

[Max]

Actually if the CPR doc was a one shot, it would still be a good power

[Caboose]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1

CPR

Doc
5 Townies

It adds a layer of wifom, which is always necessary when there are cops and docs

that's too much kiling. Basically the game will come down to whether or not the mafia were crosskilled and have very little to do with day time play.

Two things I absolutely can't stand in mafia set-ups:
1. Town winning off of mafia crosskills.
2. Follow-the-cop

Make the mafia members immune to being killed by each other and maybe turn the CPR doc into a vig or a quack and add in a doc?

[Max]

I was under the impression in twofold there were no cross kills?

[shaft.ed]

I was under the impression in twofold there were no cross kills?

it's been played with and without crosskills. IMHO in a 2v2v8 setup the town really can't win without crosskills, at least it's much more difficult. Perhaps give each team a GF that is crosskill immune but not investigation immune?

What about a weak Doc instead of a CPR. That way some info can be gained by said player. And possible extra deaths are limited to one, as in the case for a one shot CPR Doc. (honestly I don't see a one shot CPR docter being much different from a one shot vig)

Caboose, forgot to mention that CopA and CopB are only told they are Cops. Thus the information they gain is much less solid.

[Adel]

Question about Quack Multiball: If a quack targets Doctor A and Doctor B also targets Doctor A, will doctor A die?

doc B will prevent the quack from killing doc a

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, and thanks for ruining my chances of blitzing MD with three thought-provoking threads sure to earn me the Professor Mafia scummy.

That's

all shot to hell now, isn't it?

Fuck it.

In other news, why the hell is somebody called "Empking's Alt" being allowed to nominate/second setups anyway? There are a number of problems here, not least no limitations on who can make/approve setups. If farside's too busy, we need to throttle the pool down through which setups come, to help her.

[Adel]

There are a number of problems here, not least no limitations on who can make/approve setups.

of the setups farside has added to the queue:

• Double Day Mafia
  The New C9
  Fire and Ice Mafia
  Lovers Multiball
  Open93 Near Vanilla Mafia
  Lover Mafia
  Carbon-14
  Bird C9
  Night Watch Mafia
  Mayo Clinic Open
  Crush
  Even/Odd C9
  Don't Cut the Red Wire!
  Bird C9
  Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy
  Impotence Mafia
  Weak M.D. and the Terrified Patient
  Unclean Mafia v.2
  Gurgi EC8
  Immunity Mafia
  Paris Mafia
  Tread Carefully
  Masons and Mafia

which setups do you have a problem with?

[Mr. Flay]

Lovers. Red Wire. Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy. Fire and Ice.

That's just from memory...

[Adel]

Lovers. Red Wire. Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy. Fire and Ice.

That's just from memory...

I think we've covered Red Wire.

Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
2 Masons
1 Backup Mason (becomes mason upon death of either mason, isn't informed of being backup, i.e. initially gets a vanilla PM)
5 Vanilla Townies

Fire and Ice

2 fire mafia
2 ice mafia
1 bodyguard
9 townies

if fire and ice target the same player their kills cancel out

Lovers

2 mafia lovers
4 townies
nightless
scum can daytalk

Question: Is the purpose of the Open Game Queue to move things along as fast as possible?

Be honest, please; I see an awful lot of terrible setups here those primary advantage seems to be that they can be played quickly, either to get around the months-long-game syndrome or the year-long-mod-queue in Mini Normal.

I'm not throwing rocks, I genuinely want to know if people believe in the setups they nominate. I've commented on a few genuinely bad setups, but I don't read this thread very often, because most Open Games don't appeal to me. When I do come here, I see a lot of 5-9 player games with lots of killing roles, Lovers, and other ways to increase the body count/speed. New C9 is the standout exception.

Maybe I'm selectively reading. Maybe I'm missing something. That's why I asked. But it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that of the first page of Little Italy, completed Mini Normals have an average length of 749 posts, while Open Games have an average length of less than 479 posts.

Perhaps because Opens are generally smaller? They also have more information with which to work.

Perhaps, but controlling for # of players, Opens are still only 83% the length of Mini Normals. I'll go on to older games here in a bit...

::edit:: Medians are closer: 58.8 posts/player vs. 62.4p/p. I am certainly willing to be wrong here.

do you have new objections, or the same ones as you had in the other thread?

What don't you like about those setups?

The open game system is the only part of the site that dependably generates games that don't last for month after month with replacement after replacement. It seems to me that what I like best about the product of open games is what you object to.

I see the current open game system as being the best place for new mods to learn how to design and balance games, for new players to join games that demand a more reasonable time commitment, and for players to enjoy roles and mechanics that wouldn't work as well in closed setups. In the other thread one of your strongest objections was to a setup that included a death miller. I think open games (and semi-open) are usually the only suitable place for roles like Death Miller and Jester.

Did you see anything of value in the long post I typed up about adding rigor to the open game nomination process?

[Mr. Flay]

Lovers has been discussed to death - I've never seen you address the "Town must lynch unanimously two days in a row" problem.

F&E&E&TOG is awfully swingy, assuming cross-kills go through. Fire and Ice is only borderline Normal, because of the way cross-kills go through.

Are you going to address the Empking's Alt problem? What IS the current process, or is like Title Fairy?

[SensFan]

Lovers has been discussed to death - I've never seen you address the "Town must lynch unanimously two days in a row" problem.

While I agree with you (and have raised the point), it's "Town must lynch unanimously once in two days."