Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[AA23]

hey now...

hey now
don't dream its over
Hey now, hey now
When the world comes in
They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they wont win...

Vote Count

Dust 5 - AshMC1984, Empking, AceMarksman, zwetschenwasser, AA23
zwetschenwasser 2 - Khamisa, dejkha
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Hewitt 1 - Percy
Ash 1 - Mixologist

Note: with 12 alive it is 7 to lynch,
therefore Dust is -2

[dejkha]

@Dust

It sounds like we're all after clarification from you.

My case is:

1.Hypocrisy
2. Flip Floppery (that's hard to be mad at - it sounds funny when spoken)
3.Trying to manufacture immunity
4. People pleasing (through distancing and the flip floppery...still a great phrase)
5. Misdirection (we're now not only caught up with meta, but meta in the direction of sites we cannot access)

Can you give examples of 1-4 using quotes? I don't think 5 is his fault. Some else brought up a meta we can't view, not him.

[Mixologist]

I see no ash case.

It's not a case. Just an observation.

He put the first vote on Dust. Random.

Dust bandwagon ensued.

I would like his opinion on said wagon.

[hewitt]

With the statements of "I don't see the dust case" which I've seen twice, I would like for some elaboration as there are 4 other people that seem to disagree.

So that I can refine my case, or (if it need be) withdraw it, I'll need more than fence sitting statements considering the two people that made them were inactive/tied up in negative meta talk.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase. I disagree with the dust case, I think it's pretty insignificant.

[AA23]

Alright,

no random voting stage.

It's stupid, pointless, and stifles proper discussion.

Instead, I'll direct a few questions towards the Town at large? Only Mafia need not answer. ; P

Do you think it's scummy to say that an RVS shouldn't be conducted? What would you prefer as an alternative? Do any of you have interesting meta on other players?

The above is his statement on how he feels about RVS, followed by an attempt to conduct the town and organize etc by prompting us - - this is the very first post of day 1 - -
(and is his comment about mafia need not answer a little threat to call us scum for not seeing his way?)

RVS and meta, in my experience, are two things most players can bring an opinion on to the table, and thus, we open up more opportunities.

Grr...

Can we get some other

relevant, non-biased information on this game? I can't see this going anywhere...

Meta is biased and he is now hating on the very thing he exchanged for RVS - which he said was the same thing - - irrelevent and something he couldn't see going anywhere

Hypocrite

because biases from previous games are overwhelming the actual validity of the meta arguments they offer. The metas they had against each other were perfectly relevant to start, but then they began using them as their own little personal argument, which wasn't even rooted in this game

More hypocrisy. How can meta not be biased in either positive or negative ways? How can the meta be applied to this game when it's the first thing you brought up? The first post on is where he kicked this off...

He also coaxed other players in less than 5 pages to start posting - - more attempts to conduct the town an in turn

'Pushing' wasn't so much the verb behind that action as 'Prompting'.

Further admits to trying to conduct the town and build an immunity as a seemingly protown leader (self proclaimed no less) - - these things happen naturally and with time, not off the bat from post one. Scummy.

leading the town is not something I normally enjoy doing. If other people stepped up to the plate and started striving towards discussion, I wouldn't butt heads with them because they were doing so.

Admits to trying for the leadership role - - denis it - - admits he'll step down from what he thinks is his leadership - - doesn't see it as leadership - -

Manufacture Immunity

----------------------------------

I answered Dust's question. I then chose not to vote or go with the RVS.

Gorckat voted me, and Dust opportunistically turned on me with no rational thoughts of his own

@AA23- I agree with Gorckat. Take a position on the issue.

FoS: AA and Mixo

Was I truly suspicious? Read my post, the one I got a vote and Dust's FoS for - - it's mental

Had someone random voted at the end of the post I made, you all would have taken that as an answer to whether they would participate in RVS - - I chose not to - that's not complicated...or suspicious - - if anything, the most you could get is a question out of it, no?

I think he was:

People Pleasing

to blend in more. He does so furhter.

You're highly buddying up to Dej because there's no way in hell that was a compelling argument.

Emp tells Dust he's buddying to Dej - - Dust

immediately

distances. Now I don't think he was buddying, but I do indeed think he distanced.

It's like being a speed trap cop and seeing someone go too slow (and speeding is buddying) - - I'm suspicious of the too slow driver - Dust.

On the other hand, other than Dej's almost unhealthy obsession with lynching you..[...]

[...]That said, I think that Empking definitely has some problems with his play style, but nothing to warrant persecution on the level that Dej has suggested.

He immediately sings a different tune about Dej, and then makes nice with Emp, the guy shaking a fist at him - - to once again please and make nice --

I'd like to see if he flops again if Emp is on the stand...Probably change his opinions as easily in that post as he did this one.

Meta, as you say, breeds meta discussion. It shouldn't be bringing about lynch discussion.

Discussing meta comparatively suggests to us whether someone is town or scum - how is it distant from lynching process/scum hunting? - - and if you WANTED it to be different from lynch talk/scum hunting, isn't that just as off topic and useless as RVS? Hypocrisy...

And why is it too early for prompting? I mean, really, what harm does it do the town?

What does harm for the town is scum gaining immunity by feining such love and pro-town statements out of nowhere - - when have I or anyone told you a statement or idea is hurting the town specifically? It seems like you're throwing in "I love town" statements all on your own so they can be read and we can subliminally think "aw, he can't be scum"
------------

His flip flops on issues, people pleasing, hypocrisy, and scummy manufacturing of pro town leadership that he admits to and denies having is scummy to me.
-------------------------------

To clarify as asked. I find his whole game play to bee far too loose and fake. - - he started the game with hypocrisy and trying to get opinions from other people, and he hasn't truly brought forth his OWN opinions unless they were inspired by other people challenging him or buddying (Gorckat voting me, Emp accusing Dust of buddying) - - he's brought nothing to the table except his hatred for RVS (which he considers as useless as meta talk...kind of redundant) - - Why trust a guy that advocates conversation and debates, but doesn't partake in them? Only sits on the sidelines and tries to seem like the town leader/conductor?

Scum.

[Percy]

Ah- you're saying I was the person Dust was jumping on with. That wasn't clear the way AA23 was posting- he left out names so I didn't see it was my own vote he was referring to.

Still, you were the only one voting for AA23. I don't see how much confusion not posting names would cause.

I'm not answering Percy's question

Why not?

@AA23: Nice work. I am really liking your case. We can assume zwet is OK with his vote (given that he has not addressed it, and yet posted often), Ace didn't talk about it and Ash went to lenghts to say it was random. and Emp hasn't clarified. I will throw my solid support behind this wagon with an

Unvote, Vote: Dust

(L-1), but I would ask that any would-be hammerers wait until after Dust posts a reply.

@Dust: now would be a great time to start talking.

@hewitt: Do you think AA23 is scum for pursuing the case? What do you think of it now?

I have no problem with Mix's vote. Votes should be used to prompt and push, and that's exactly what he did.

@Khamisa: What is your opinion on the Dust case?

[Empking]

I'm OK (mostly because of the first and third reasons of AA23's post) with my vote.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

[Dust]

Sorry guys, I've been terribly busy this weekend, and unfortunately, I can't assemble a great response right now. I do, however, need to save my ass, because I'm afraid that someone will drop a quick hammer on me before I have a chance to really get out an defend myself.

This is my ten minute response to all of this stuff. Don't got more time:

Alright, so let's address AA's case in this time:

Hypocrite?

- I thought I'd gone over this with you. The proper meta discussion that was taking place had become warped into a Dej-Empking feud. It was enough to know that they didn't like each other, and why. They took it so many steps further than that, prompting a rerailing of discussion to a more on-track division. I didn't know what I was getting myself into with those two...

Manufacturing Immunity?

- Wouldn't it only count as manufacturing immunity, say, if it was working? The problem with what you're suggesting is that my actions have not manufactured any immunity for me at all. If they had, maybe, I could see where you were coming from. This isn't really an argument I feel is valid because here we are on Day 1, and we haven't seen the effects of very many arguments, other than the fact that the unorthodox gets bashed upon.

People Pleasing

- Yes. I like making other people happy. I don't enjoy stepping on toes. It distracts from finding the real scum. The case you cite as an example was probing for more real discussion: discussion did not have to come from meta and RVS theory. I've already said that the case with Dej and Empking came from starting with Dej's argument without any proof, and moving into my current viewpoint that while Dej is too gung-ho for an Empking lynch, there's definitely something wrong with Empking's playing style.


And now, I really, really have to go. Gonna be late for work.

Don't hang me,

I am the Seer

.

[zwetschenwasser]

I'm OK (mostly because of the first and third reasons of AA23's post) with my vote.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

*facepalm*

Counterclaims, anyone?

Unvote

[Empking]

I'm OK (mostly because of the first and third reasons of AA23's post) with my vote.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

*facepalm*

Counterclaims, anyone?

Unvote

I just said that people shouldn't counterclaim.

Unvote

[zwetschenwasser]

Yes, they should counterclaim.

[Empking]

Yes, they should counterclaim.

Let's see, advantages to counter claim: None
Disadvantages to counter claim: Many

[Percy]

Unvote

Not willing to let scum hammer the Seer without a complete re-read to reaffirm or alleviate my suspicions.
Thoughts at the moment: Dust's FoS on AA is terrible. His horrendous meta failtrain is still full of hypocrisy, and he has been leading the town. Just because he is now attracting suspicion doesn't mean he tried to build immunity in a transparent, scummy way; that is, he could have miscalculated and dug himself into this hole by trying to act like a super town leader.
As I said, need to re-read. But I was pretty convinced before, and his answer didn't help much. I'll either re-vote or state my opposition to the wagon in my next post.

In the meantime,

Vote: zwetschenwasser

There is nothing to be gained for the town by someone counterclaiming. This is fishing hard for the town's only power role. Real Seer, if you exist, do not claim.

[hewitt]

I wouldn't go as far as saying AA23 is scum but I remember reading the previous pages and thinking he's the scummiest, I'm at Six Flags today so if I don't explain why tonight then prompt me and I'll remember tomorrow.

zwets that is a horrible idea to counterclaim at this point.

[dejkha]

AA, I see what you're saying with his case, but I still think a lot of it is minor. Something similar to this happened in another game I've played (PR quickly outed on Day 1). Scum force the the person to claim by putting them at L-1 this early. IMO everything he did wasn't enough to lynch, so I'll bet at least 3 of the 7 people on the wagon were scum from either group. More likely one of the two that put him at L-1 and L-2. It's almost never good to put someone at L-1 this early (if he is the real seer).

I don't think there's any harm, in saying this, but I'm thinking either Zwet or Dust could be a werewolf. Dust, if he's lying, for obvious reasons (trying to out the seer) or Zwet for pretty much also trying to out the seer when town would only be at a disadvantage if that was done.

I'll do a reread soon.

[Mixologist]

Let's see, advantages to counter claim: None
Disadvantages to counter claim: Many

This.

So I feel that I can safely say that Dust isn't mafia. Does not rule out the possibility that he is a werewolf and the real seer is still out there.

Also

FOS zwet

for fishing.

[zwetschenwasser]

Why is a counterclaim bad? We kill guaranteed scum...

[dejkha]

And we're also guaranteed losing a Seer which is our only investigation role and can see if someone's a werewolf. Without him, we're blind.

[AA23]

Okay - -


Dej and others - -

I agree 100% that the case is minor - - don't get me wrong, I feel they are all valid points, and they could indeed luck out to a villan, but minor is right. Dust is a victim of trying to be the strongest poster and we at present have the least info on everyone else.

My vote stays - - He was at L-1 which means scum is very much part of the wagon, otherwise we could have had a quickhammer (in the form of someone praising the case like percy did and dropping a vote)

Percy, don't flip, but I think scum is on the chopping block, and the L-1 vote (that no longer exists) - - It's a thought I have percy, I'm sure it won't last, so don't get ansy lol

So that I understand this game correctly, both scum and werewolves would want to quickhammer and nightkill, and with a wagon at 6, we had 3 hop off immediately when Dust called seer and three backed off.

Possibility

Person# - Doing - Whom

1 - Dust - the voted - seer

2 - Zwet - Voting - Scum/Werewolf

3 - Percy - Voting - Scum/Werewolf

4 - Emp - Voting - Scum/Werewolf

If the claim is true on Dust's part, I have started a wagone that villans jumped on, and all jumped off together - why?

Counterclaim. Try to inspire the opposing villan (scum/werewolf) to do so - - that way, out of the claimer and counterclaimer, he and his partner get a mislynch, and no who to kill in the night

This could support that Dust is the seer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now there are two people other than myself on said wagon, they could be the villan counterparts, or maybe townies for the alternative below

Possibility

Person# - Doing - Whom

1 - Dust - Scum/Werewolf

2 -

3 -

4 -

Same as above - a wagon with a very good chance of a pair of villans on board (seeing as tehre was no quick lynch, I would reckon Dust could still be villan). They also all pull off for the same reason - that juicy claim which can guaruntee them a valuable nightkill, and more than potential mislynch if a counterclaim comes up.

Because a counterclaim is so important, and the game has 4 villans, I'm going to keep my vote on Dust because there was no quicklynch and he could still be villan - - but I consider

ZWET to be an excellent alternative and will hop ship to him if it proves stronger ebfore I refine anything with Dust - - they are two primaries for me

Those are my thoughts. This wagon has helped lure more potential villans than kill off one that could be innocent. The case is thin - - it's good enough to be a case, but thin. I think the actions of other people with this case is equally valuable.

Thoughts?

[AA23]

Wow I read cluttery... that was confusing

Summary -

4 villans, 3 people jumped ship when a claim came - - I think the 4th villan is Dust - - but whether he is innocent or not, they hopped so there would be time for a counterclaim

So that they can have a valuable kill AND a mislynch.

Yea - that should be more clear

[Mixologist]

Are you only saying four because you yourself are a scum AA? Slip?

Clearly there are five villains in this game as per post, oh I don't know, 1.

[Empking]

Wow I read cluttery... that was confusing

Summary -

4 villans, 3 people jumped ship when a claim came - - I think the 4th villan is Dust - - but whether he is innocent or not, they hopped so there would be time for a counterclaim

So that they can have a valuable kill AND a mislynch.

Yea - that should be more clear

So you're saying that we said that he shouldn't be counterclaimed, why?

In order to get a counterclaim?

[AA23]

I'm saying 4 because it's how the number would work in my head for those two scenarios - - two pairs

If we're consider that there was a no lynch because ALL the scum were on the board, we could then assume the three people that pulled off are the three scum, waiting to lynch Dust the seer (and try to mislynch the counterclaim) - - or they are three scum waiting to lynch the werewolf Dust but want to wait to know who the true seer is if there's a counter claim.

So no - clearly not a slip, it's a game of numbers - - if anything, you've suggested a third possibility - It's as thin as the others, but at least we're all thinking.

Out of the three people, we had Percy, who was impressed and praised the case on Dust, maintains the points are valid, and pulls off (to keep him from L-1? But why? Two already pulled off...)

The two to pull off were Zwet and Emp.

Zwet, who pulled off and asked for a counterclaim - - this is 100% a villan tool, and only benefits them. No doubt about it.

**Emp defended why his vote was there and furhtermore withdrew it and insisted a counterclaim shouldn't happen - - I'm confused on that one and could use more input from other people.

--------------------
Which of the now three possibilities is sound? If there are more, I could use the food for thought as I've hit a wall

[AA23]

Wow I read cluttery... that was confusing

Summary -

4 villans, 3 people jumped ship when a claim came - - I think the 4th villan is Dust - - but whether he is innocent or not, they hopped so there would be time for a counterclaim

So that they can have a valuable kill AND a mislynch.

Yea - that should be more clear

So you're saying that we said that he shouldn't be counterclaimed, why?

In order to get a counterclaim?

No, I'm saying that villans could have pulled off the wagon to buy time. A claim is out - - they now have a potentially solid night kill. If they coax a counterclaim, they can score a decent mislynch in addition to that - - I'm saying villans are trying to up their number of casualties right now instead of rushing.

[AA23]

Oh wow - - No, Emp, I see what you mean - I rushed through my reading and hadn't seen Percy go against the counter.

I suppose that would suggest

Zwet
Me
the two other ppl who voted and haven't pulled off

are prime suspects.

Zwet is pushing for a counter which is a villan tool at this time

The two other voters haven't clarified why they are voting

And the best I can do is hope my expression of the case and why I voted/am keeping it there are good enough to keep my head out of a rope!