Large Normal 92 - Game Over! Scum Win!

[Tarhalindur]

Alright, give me a second to reread the thread so far.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-4

Mastin - 4

(Caboose, Devestation, Amished, zu_Faul)

Zwetschenwasser - 2

(AceMarksman, zer0ph34r)

Dust - 2

(Mastin, StevieT92)

zer0ph34r - 1

(zwetschenwasser)

alvinz95 - 1

(Azhrei)

zu_Faul - 1

(Maturin24)

killa seven - 1

(OrangePenguin)

NanooktheWolf - 1

(cateraction)

hewitt - 1

(zoraster)

Not Voting - 13

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.

[Devestation]

Well then I guess you are the scumread, as you are totally defensive about everything said to you.

[zwetschenwasser]

Mod: You might be aware King has not posted anywhere since April 3rd

I am aware. He responded to a PM I sent to him about not confirming his role about two hours after I sent it, he seems to be fine. (this PM was sent earlier today)

Ooh... Sassy!

[orangepenguin]

Oh, my head hurts. Still liking my vote on killa seven. All his posts, in isolation, have been really scummy. So scummy, I don't even know where to begin. Look for yourself.

[zoraster]

Oh, my head hurts. Still liking my vote on killa seven. All his posts, in isolation, have been really scummy. So scummy, I don't even know where to begin. Look for yourself.

To my knowledge, killa seven has yet to post here.

[Amished]

@Mastin (going through your points directed towards me in order from 75): Being active is not a scum-slip, nor shall you find me saying solely that. Active lurking is scummy, sure. Besides, like you always like to say scummy != scum. BTW I have no idea what your link/equation means. I know you explained it but I don't care enough about it to go back and look at your explanation. Oh, got it. Still stupid to introduce a link for the purpose of FoS'ing instead of .. you know.. using an FoS?

Games go on for *months* and probably over 100 pages a game of this size; and you're concerned about a couple days and a couple pages? A couple days is not too long.

And I viewed page 2 to still be in the RVS. You posting a lot doesn't immediately get us anywhere, the game is a gradual process, and page 2 in a 27 player game is still part of the RVS in my eyes. Difference of opinion I guess.

(I'll defer my suspicions to the end of this post, so I can avoid cluttering this up)

Everyone that voted you is scum then? Townies that either didn't like your excessive quote-clipping and voted you for that are scum too, eh? Seems logical...... /no

You saying that your playstyle is erratic, and me saying the same thing about your playstyle "nailed" me as scum? So people that vote for you *or* people that agree with you are scum. Got it. Oh wait, not really (keep reading).

BTW: You commend both Zoraster and Zer0 on saying that your posts contain extraneous "words" for lack of a better term. (Zor saying they didn't mean anything, and Zer0 for saying that your playstyle made it easy to for scum to slip by due to getting lost in the static of your posts). My last paragraph in 59 had a broad view of both of these points, but you failed to comment on that. I still find your scrutiny and selective quoting to be misleading and not all encompassing at times. Or did you not scrutinize everything like you said you would?

Cause following is easier than leading. That and Mastin looks like he knows what he's about.

Why?

On the first page he had "information" about Ace who readily agreed with him while also singling out another scum. With him directing the town like a general, I was going along with the mood/tone of the posts and going with the flow instead of creating my own shenanigans. I added onto it to see what, if any, reactions would come of it.

For any reads on players: Ace and zor pop up to be rather townie. Zwet is posting more about this game than the other one I'm in with him so I don't know how to take it but I like it.

I disagree with Stevie on some of his logic (and zoraster's post in 74 is my thoughts on that matter). I also wonder about how stevie would take policy lynching (popular targets K7, Zwet, EMP, etc..) as that has come up a couple times in my experiences here. To also vote Dust (ostensibly) for bringing Mastin to L-9 is sensationalizing the vote in my opinion. However, Dust's reaction (the unvote under back-pressure) has me concerned. The mastin/dust back and forth is tunneling by mastin (like Ace said in 88). Over-commentary is fluff, and it's like listening to a politician speak. (BTW: You (Mastin) even call a lot of your commentary "fluff" in ISO 5).

Finally, I don't care really if it was the RVS or not, but being completely unreadable alignment-wise, while beneficial to you (maybe) isn't beneficial to the rest of the town. Unlike people who townies can get a read on to be more pro-town/anti-town townies can then use that read to gauge the information being given out by that person. Back and forth on bandwagoning is one of the most obvious "opinions" of yours to point at from the early game, but obviously isn't the whole reason why I view you to be hard to get a proper read on.

Your "better than thou" tone in response to Nanook, as well as your statement on "focusing our attention on scumhunting" in ISO 20 is crap as well. The majority of us are here to scumhunt. We do not need you to make us focused on our task at hand. If you weren't here, would we be unable to scumhunt? No.

Your patronizing tone is enough for me to keep my vote on you. Not to mention you not having a solid stance on reactions/people commenting about your playstyle or even bandwagons.

These are the times that I wish you weren't you, Mastin. I know you're probably going to revert back to your line by line and I'm not looking forward to having to go through too many more of those.

@Ace: About Mastin's posts: I think ignoring them would be more scummy than commenting on them in the first place. Clearly he's a large part of the game and outright ignoring it is anti-town IMO, regardless of what your view of his alignment is.

@Zor: I think that's OPengy's point... >_>

I should probably get on here more often, this took entirely too much effort for how tired I am. At least I should sleep well. G'night.

[ryan2754]

Wow, a lot has transpired since I last checked the thread.

Mastin's posting is interesting to say the least. I really don't want to jump to any conclusions just yet, but it is disheartening. Either way, anyone that decides to replace out is a pussy. Let Mastin play the way he wants. If you want to lynch him, vote for him. Doesn't mean you have to read his bajillion posts. (Oh, and btw, I HATE people who replace out because of the play of another player...grow a pair and deal with it)

There seems to be a lot of non-game content posts, from Zu_Paul, Zephoer, and, of course, Zwet. On the flipside, also have some inactive lurkers, like K7, Pheobus, Azhrei, RC, KoC, EmpAlt, Alvins, King, and Hewiit.
As I have pointed out before (in other games), in a game this big, getting rid of the lurkers early can be a pro-town thing to do, as there are a few rounds to do it, but also removes the possibility of a stagnant endgame. Lurkers only help scum, and in bigger games, there is some time and such to lynch them. Just a game theory of mine.


I really like Stevie's Post 71 and 71 for that matter.

Also, anyone who says we need less discussion is inherently scummy. Discussion is the one power of the town. We need as much of it, whether it's off-topic garbage or garbled quotes, as we can get.

I'm not saying we need less discussion at all. I'm saying we need more productive discussion. I completely disagree with your assertion that any discussion at all helps town. It does not.

True.

Mastin has made some solid points on Dust.

There is no such thing as 'fluff', which was my point. Any discussion gives more information. That's what we want, information. The more posts that go unwritten, the more potentially valuable information is missed.


So you retract your vote once a second person votes for you? This is an attempt not to look scummy.

Paragraph 1: No, there are such things as "Fluff." Posting non game related content is fluff to make it not look like active lurking. I will concede the point that even OT posting gives infromations though.

Paragraph 2: Interesting...


What the hell is the chainsaw defense?


Oh, and I really like Amished's Post 105. Adequate defense, and adequate explanation of vote. I too agree Mastin has tunneled, but outside of Mastin's play and his suspicions we don't really have that much. This being said, since all we have to go off is Mastin's activity, I still think we are slightly in the RVS, since there isn't much to go with. Anyways, I'm getting OT and if I continued this conversation it would continue with the theory and debate about when RVS technically ends, which would be game theory and not scum-hunting.

Either way, I have a short suspicion list, as half the games participants have yet to post. Thus, I feel no one is worthy of my vote just yet.

[orangepenguin]

Oh, my head hurts. Still liking my vote on killa seven. All his posts, in isolation, have been really scummy. So scummy, I don't even know where to begin. Look for yourself.

To my knowledge, killa seven has yet to post here.

Killa seven has yet to post anything pro-town?

[StevieT92]

Paragraph 1: No, there are such things as "Fluff." Posting non game related content is fluff to make it not look like active lurking. I will concede the point that even OT posting gives infromations though.

Believe me, I have played mafia in threads where there was a lot of fluff and OT posts, and the more volume the town can get the easier it is for them. I'm willing to deal with some fluff as long as people are all posting frequently.

[Empking's Alt]

Vote: Mastin

I would like your next post to be anylyzing the first post of the player who had their first post in this thread after everyone who had joined up to this game.

[Azhrei]

Oh, my head hurts. Still liking my vote on killa seven. All his posts, in isolation, have been really scummy. So scummy, I don't even know where to begin. Look for yourself.

To my knowledge, killa seven has yet to post here.

Killa seven has yet to post anything pro-town?

Unvote, Vote: Orangepenguin

Explain, boyo.

As to Mastin, I also find him unreadable as of yet, and I find reading his posts very hard. That said, I read all of them but his last one. He makes some good points on dust, but I would like an explanation from orange here first.


Also, I apologise for not posting too much.

[Azhrei]

EBWOP: By last one, I mean last big one.

[zoraster]

Vote: Mastin

I would like your next post to be anylyzing the first post of the player who had their first post in this thread after everyone who had joined up to this game.

First, please clarify this post. That is a nearly nonsensical sentence.

FoS: Empking

If you're going to make your first post a vote, you need to explain yourself. Do it now.

[Amished]

lol, nicely worded EMP. Look at the sentence again, but in a different order.

After everyone has said something (joined), he want's mastin's next post to analyze the first post of the last person to first say something.

Worded differently again: he wants mastin to not post until *everybody* else has said something.

@Az: OPengy's saying he's voting for a lurker (somebody that hasn't posted has also never posted anything pro-town. Sure, they haven't posted anything anti-town, but nothing pro-town makes it look better, while also being true). K7 is a notorious lurker apparently, and is probably voting for him based on policy.

These aren't that hard to figure out, at least in my opinion...

Though I like OPengy's post just because it allowed me to see Az's relative experience level and what I can expect from him later on.

@Steph: I'm pretty sure you're the only one without an avatar at this point, but even still it'd be easier for all of us (including me) to link your thoughts with you if you had a picture or something as an avatar.

[Zer0ph34r]

Yeah, killaseven never posted in the last game he and I was in, he was going to be prodded, but we lynched him.

[AceMarksman]

About Mastin's posts: I think ignoring them would be more scummy than commenting on them in the first place. Clearly he's a large part of the game and outright ignoring it is anti-town IMO, regardless of what your view of his alignment is.

Where did I say I was ignoring mastin's posts?

[Caboose]

How is calling everyone voting for Mastin scummy not chainsaw defense?

You generalize, sir.

How?

IMHO, everyone getting worked up about mastin's posts (

including Mastin

) are scummy and/or trying to appear overly townie (by this, I don't mean trying to feign being town, just trying too hard to prove it). Discuss.

The bolded part doesn't change anything. This post is still a blanket accusation to anyone voting Mastin and it discourages anyone else from voting Mastin.

[AceMarksman]

What is your problem, caboose? I said people getting worked up about mastin's posts, which includes him, are scummy and/or trying to appear too town. This does not prevent anyone from voting him. How is it chainsaw if I included Mastin in the group of scummy/trying to appear too town?

[ryan2754]

Can someone please clarify Chainsaw defense for me...

[orangepenguin]

Oh, my head hurts. Still liking my vote on killa seven. All his posts, in isolation, have been really scummy. So scummy, I don't even know where to begin. Look for yourself.

To my knowledge, killa seven has yet to post here.

Killa seven has yet to post anything pro-town?

Unvote, Vote: Orangepenguin

Explain, boyo.

All his posts, in ISO, have been really scummy = Zwet hasn't posted, so this statement is impossible.
I don't know where to begin = There is no starting point, there is no posts.
Look for yourself = You can't.
K7 has yet to post anything pro-town = He hasn't posted anything.

MY POSTS = JOKE, in the random voting stage.

You're supposed to laugh, because I am voting a player on the basis of his scummy posts and lack of pro-town posts, when he hasn't even posted yet. It is also some mild pressuring on K7 to get him to start posting.

[orangepenguin]

Can someone please clarify Chainsaw defense for me...

I have read the wiki, and have had people explain this to me a bunch of times, and I still don't understand. Maybe it's the name that throws me off.

Especially when people accuse you of doing it, except you don't know what they are accusing you of, because you don't know what it means, exactly.

[Caboose]

Chainsaw Defense

What is your problem, caboose?

This isn't personal.

I said people getting worked up about mastin's posts, which includes him, are scummy and/or trying to appear too town.

Mind backing this statement up?

This does not prevent anyone from voting him.

No, but this prevents anyone who doesn't want to be called scummy from voting him.

How is it chainsaw if I included Mastin in the group of scummy/trying to appear too town?

That still doesn't explain why you called everyone voting Mastin scummy.

[Mastin]

IMHO, everyone getting worked up about mastin's posts (including Mastin) are scummy and/or trying to appear overly townie (by this, I don't mean trying to feign being town, just trying too hard to prove it). Discuss.

It is something worth considering, Ace. A fine point.

You're cluttering up the thread with your sarcasm about "scumbuddies," creating WIFOM if you flip.

This statement is scummy in so many ways, it isn't funny.
1: Stating what I was doing was wifom, when we were still in the RVS.
2: Stating that I will be the lynch, a "flip".
3: You are stating that I would flip scum.

You ask for a wagon, you get it, and then you don't like it?

Let's respond by quoting myself and bolding/underlining important parts!

I'm not sure

if

I like this

, or dislike it... :/

Yay for blatantly ignoring over half the sentence!

-S^1, + F, Caboose.

Caboose, Devestation, Amished, zu_Faul, Dust
Our scum.

Please summarize why you have them.

I've done so over pages. I'll put 'em together, for your convenience, Cabooscum.

I don't get why everyone is saying that Mastin is unreadable.

Because they're never going to read me correctly, that's why.

Also, I don't get the Zu suspicion.

Read.

This looks like chainsaw defense to me.

Pointing out that everyone who was addressing my posting, including myself, is chainsaw defense...HOW?

Also, I made this mistake in Newbie 742.
Ace, why don't you tell Caboose about the fine print paragraph in the Chainsaw Defense?

You know, the fact that it requires for a player to be both dead AND confirmed scum? Yea, that one.

My vote was completely serious and it stays for now.

Your vote...on page one...in what was the RVS...was completely serious...

You know, I'd believe you if you said it was a joke (like most RVS votes), but is now serious.
Nope, not buying it now.

How is calling everyone voting for Mastin scummy not chainsaw defense?

How many ways can I say you're wrong? Let's see...
1: Ace was saying reacting--not voting.
2: He also included myself. So, what, is he chainsaw defensing against me to defend me? Yea, right.
3: Chainsaw defense requires for the player to be dead, and more importantly,
4: It requires for that player to flip scum.

I could go on all day. You should know better, as an experienced player.

Mastin, how exactly did that post of mine gain me pro-town points?

Not saying. Allows scum to mimic it.

Still stupid to introduce a link for the purpose of FoS'ing instead of .. you know.. using an FoS?

Live with it. You'll be seeing it more often.

and you're concerned about a couple days and a couple pages? A couple days is not too long.

Only for the RVS.

EBWOP: By last one, I mean last big one.

Why avoiding it?

---

Our scum for sure are,
Cabooscum,
Devescumtion,
Amiscum,
zu_Faul,
Duscum

And our probable scum are
Nanook,

To a lesser degree,
Empking.

[Mastin]

To save Ace the time, he nailed me for this bad logic in 742, based off of me missing the fine print:

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

[Caboose]

You're cluttering up the thread with your sarcasm about "scumbuddies," creating WIFOM if you flip.

This statement is scummy in so many ways, it isn't funny.
1: Stating what I was doing was wifom, when we were still in the RVS.

What does that have to do with anything. WIFOM is WIFOM

2: Stating that I will be the lynch, a "flip".

No. An NK or a lynch is a flip.

3: You are stating that I would flip scum.

Hypothetically, yes. That's why your statement is scummy. It fits with you as scum.

You ask for a wagon, you get it, and then you don't like it?

Let's respond by quoting myself and bolding/underlining important parts!

I'm not sure

if

I like this

, or dislike it... :/

Yay for blatantly ignoring over half the sentence!

So, where's the uncertainty coming from? The sentence implies that part of you doesn't like the sentence.

Caboose, Devestation, Amished, zu_Faul, Dust
Our scum.

Way to OMGUS.

Please summarize why you have them.

I've done so over pages.

That's not a summary.

I'll put 'em together, for your convenience, Cabooscum.

That's cute.

I don't get why everyone is saying that Mastin is unreadable.

Because they're never going to read me correctly, that's why.

Why do you think that is?

Also, I don't get the Zu suspicion.

Read.

I did. I didn't read anything suspicious.

This looks like chainsaw defense to me.

Pointing out that everyone who was addressing my posting, including myself, is chainsaw defense...HOW?

Nice strawman. I'm saying that the blanket accusation is scummy because it achieves the effect of painting everyone on your wagon as scummy and discourages further votes.

Also, I made this mistake in Newbie 742.
Ace, why don't you tell Caboose about the fine print paragraph in the Chainsaw Defense?

With all due respect to Tar, my experience is that this tell is pretty accurate.

You know, the fact that it requires for a player to be both dead AND confirmed scum? Yea, that one.

No

My vote was completely serious and it stays for now.

Your vote...on page one...in what was the RVS...was completely serious...

Yes

You know, I'd believe you if you said it was a joke (like most RVS votes), but is now serious.
Nope, not buying it now.

I don't like really long RVSs. I saw a serious reason. It might not be the strongest, but it's strong enough to pursue.

How is calling everyone voting for Mastin scummy not chainsaw defense?

How many ways can I say you're wrong? Let's see...
1: Ace was saying reacting--not voting.

Reacting/voting/FoSing/expressing suspicion, you're mincing words at this point

2: He also included myself.

So what?

So, what, is he chainsaw defensing against me to defend me? Yea, right.
3: Chainsaw defense requires for the player to be dead, and more importantly,

No it doesn't.

4: It requires for that player to flip scum.

No it doesn't.

I could go on all day.

Don't

You should know better, as an experienced player.

Know better than what? To call you down on something?