Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[SerialClergyman]

Things really haven't gone well for you recently, have they, SC? I started to feel kind of bad when I saw you were getting chainlynched here and in Reverberation.

A little bit.. My run of getting townlynched comes as my time for mafia slipped greatly, and I don't think it's a coincidence.. I tend to play under pressyre because of playstyle and being wrong so I'm used to it, but recently I haven't been able to really finesse my way out of it.

Playing as the model townie doesn't allow you to do much, in my opinion. I like having wild mood swings and poor reasoning for votes.

[Amished]

Well, I did my part; and unfortunately I couldn't lynch the confirmed scum (gogo tell!).

If I had really thought about what was going on, Sando and ABR are the two masons; and Vi was scum for me on D1. Damn me not trusting myself; I kept getting PR tells from Vi; and the ABR wagoning with SC right away is what made him look scummy; which tends to find PR's more often than not.

[Ojanen]

Well played, scum.

Not one of my finer moments, this game. Being rather useless for a couple of days would have been still slightly outside the kingdom of terribad given my role I thought, but being obvmason on top of that was not.
But I enjoyed following the elaborateness of the lylo.

This game crystallifies something about mafia I've been struggling recently but find hard to out into words. I want to try to actually read people.
I'm sick of lynches correlating so often with either how able a player in general is or then more or less sophisticated runthroughs of who is currently making the least reasonable arguments, when neither of those seem to be terribly correlated to alignment on average to me. I want to

actually

attempt to see through the posts of the Vis and the Zorblags. Of course this resulted here to me flipping my attack on Reck to defending him through lack of seeing the motivation for the contradictions, which is just as bad in compensation.
I'm rambling a bit - I guess this could be said with a simple "I want to be more able in reading people" but it seems to me I've somehow gone off the rails this year. And it's related to attempting to break through ability to alignment, which gets highlighted in invitationals, and in this game.
Also, I've got to do something to the dislike for mobs I have developed biasing me.

There's not nearly as much to see in the mason qt as the scum one, but from my part it's fine to post it.

[Vi]

You're referring to causation analysis; reading more what people do versus what specifically they say. That's the sort of thing that made me call hito Town in this game, for instance.

It doesn't work as well on people who play more emotionally than logically, though. (i.e. xRx)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I guess I should’ve picked up the Rec thing, but I try to compartmentalize each game so any shifts in personality or activity don’t bleed into the other so I wasn’t looking for connections between games. I also was busy being right in regards to Zorblag and like I said, I wasn’t looking for his partner yet, just trying to get scum lynched.

Separately from that, if VPB had offered a Vi lynch after Hito’s last post I probably would’ve done it; because as soon as Hito broke against me I knew I was the lynch and there was nothing I could do to prevent it so I probably would’ve accepted any lynch that wasn’t my own at that point. I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine. VPB wasn’t alive long enough in that one to get the intense personal dislike of the scum style from late in that game where we’d basically take whatever lynch was nearby. Maybe it’s still just me, but I saw echoes of that all over Zorblag’s play and for Vi to so casually dismiss it should’ve set off alarm bells for me.

I really think a Hito lynch on D3 would’ve helped the town. Everyone has certain players that they work well with who instead of having arguments have actual discussions (I get the feeling VPB and Vi are this way) and I think SC and I are to that point that we’ll actually talk and listen to each other instead of talking past and around each other and if we were alive together in LYLO I think we would’ve have a much better shot at winning or at least getting one correct lynch.

I also have to agree with VPB and Troll in regards to the benefits offered a town by “non-elite” players. It should be obvious now that I simply struggled to find something scummy in the beginning of the game and basically OMGUS’ed Amished to do something. Of course it didn’t help that Amished then basically screamed “I’m town” to me and put forth the best arguments I'd seen in the game so I basically had to pull a 180 and for whatever reason that really seeemed to influence VPB in LYLO.

[Zorblag]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, it is interesting that you think that of my play. I never really had more than two people that I'd have taken part in lynching after the middle of day one. Once xRECKONERx entered the game my vote was going to be on he or charlatan until the day ended (the PorkchopExpress bit was a bit of clumsy buddying but my unwillingness to move my vote because it was clear that the wagon wouldn't happen without it was real). Day two I never considered moving off xRECKONERx, I was on scum and I'd pointed out reasons to suspect him and challenged a few things the previous day. Day three going in I had no chance of voting for anyone other than hitogoroshi or SerialClergyman as, again, I'd done some legwork on cases on them ahead of time and I could use my mason information gathering to justify it later. I'm pretty sure I would have been willing to make that same switch as town. I stayed with my first choice until it became clear that the day was dragging and I could switch to my second choice and get what was still a decent lynch. Unless I need to be right that day or I've got a particularly strong scum read I'll usually take that option.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Vi]

I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine.

I did that. For quite a while. I got talked out of it rather forcefully.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine.

I did that. For quite a while. I got talked out of it rather forcefully.

Eh?

~~~

Troll, I did say echoes not that it was an obvious or blatant comparison. Obviously you weren't moving your vote on day one (not when you could easily plant on the biggest town wagon and not move it and never get called on it) but your words said you were willing to lynch tons of people. And by D3 I'm still of the stance that you should have a firm opinion to a large degree and your play was essentially taking whichever of a pair of town lynches you could get, on D1 it might fly where you can accept two or three lynches at a relatively equal level, by D3 I don't buy it.

~~~

Another note, I don't think I've ever felt I had less credibility in a game excepting times when a cop has claimed a guilty on me, than I did in LYLO here. Neither of the other townies wanted anything to do with me and obviously scum wasn't going to lend a hand.

[Vi]

I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine.

I did that. For quite a while. I got talked out of it rather forcefully.

Eh?

Reread my conclusionspost from D5.

[Zorblag]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, we're going to disagree about what happened here. At this point it doesn't matter unless it comes up later in a future game.

I didn't plant my vote on the biggest town wagon and get away with it day one. I helped start the biggest town wagon day one and then didn't need to change my opinion. Of course I do the same sort of thing as town (see the Sando wagon in Mini Quick and Dirty for an example.)

Had I been town it wouldn't be that unlikely to have me be willing to see any of 7 people lynched day one in a game like this. I do believe that just about any lynch we manage is better than a no lynch. I would have argued against the other four lynches had they looked like they were going to happen but the seven I mentioned I wouldn't have done much to oppose. If you're going to take that as my saying that I'd be willing to lynch tons of people then I suppose that's your prerogative.

Day three there were still two scum in the game. I suppose you can think that town should only be interested in their single strongest read being the lynch or only being willing to vote one way if you like but it doesn't make much sense to me in that situation. Town needs to be willing to work together and make some compromises at that point because a no lynch isn't an acceptable outcome. I made my position for the number one and two choices for me clear from the start and I would have been completely comfortable making that same move as town at that point in that particular day. If you find it unbelievable then perhaps that'll lead to a mislynch in a future game but I'll deal with that when and if it comes up.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sando]

Man, I played so badly for the first 2 days ><

Ojanen wasn't VT from her play, I wasn't all that surprised in hindsight when she died. I was vaguely surprised when I died, but me and ABR were so obviously tied together in my last day that he was a dead-man-walking. That was my fault, I played it terribly. Bad reads also set up our kills, we figured either Vi or Zorblag would die N2

I think I personally as a Mason felt I'd done SFA for 2 days and needed to actually do something. Hito was right on the money, it was set up that competing bandwagons would be set up on him and SC, it was just by us masons Predicating that reasoning on ABR being scum was what made it hold literally no water for me, and SC looked like a drowning rat desperately holding onto weak reasoning there. We did go into N3 basically thinking Hito was town though, I just didn't want to say anything because I wanted scum to think I'd gun for him the next day and leave me alive.

I doubt Serials bad play would have seemed as bad if not for me, to be fair to him. I purposefully locked into him on D3, and a lot of my case was personal meta. There wasn't much he could say to me, and it would have looked a lot like floundering to others. He had a very limited window where he could have convinced me of his towniness, and his slightly hesitant play cost him that. He looked a lot worse than he was I think.

Good play by scum, and bad play by town at certain crucial points really hurt town. Hito impressed me with not only getting out of what we set up on him and Serial, but definitively declaring him town. VPB really stepped up for town in the end as well.

I think scum played really well though, and as Zorblag inferred, while I think D5 could have gone either way, I think D6 would have gone badly for town either way.

I didn't see how I gave myself away as mason, but I knew that my terribad play meant ABR was goooone, and the no-lynch was fairly pointless.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sometimes you're just very close to being right, and then you change your mind and you lose and die. That's what happened to me in this game.

DDD was a pain in the ass for me the entire game, I didn't expect him to play like that at all. I initially had a town read of Serial, but he was so bad this time, I couldn't believe it. The main reason I voted him was NOT because I was that confident in myself, but because I was confident in Ojanen and Sando who both thought SC was scum, and they are supposed to know him very well. Bleh on Ojanen and Sando...

This town just played horrible, and me included. I didn't get as much into it as I had foreseen. And when I was right, I second guessed myself and got right back to square one.

Some of my mistakes:

1) I couldn't believe everyone was just giving Vi a free pass, and I went along knowing if he didn't get NK'd he was scum. Exactly the same thing with Zorblag actually, but then I changed my mind when I couldn't hold back my suspicions anymore.

2) Trusting my mason partners too much

3) Not spearheading the scumhunt as I should

The following quote will serve as a life lesson for me:

"Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

And, as we let our own light shine, we consciously give
other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our fear,
our presence automatically liberates others."

So many times in this game I could have made the difference but decided that the others knew what they were doing. Well fuck me, they didn't.

[Albert B. Rampage]

That said, I like all of you a lot. I now know how DDD plays now so I won't have any surprises the next time I see him, and that's always a plus.

I want to play another game with you guyzz now...

Oh but the modding in this game sucked. Deadlines should be shorter.

[Vi]

I went along knowing if he didn't get NK'd he was scum.

masons

Also, I'm somewhat disturbed that you claim to have been holding back ITT. When I saw your reason for pushing the PCE wagon against charlatan's (with the benefit of knowing you weren't outrightly lying), I was like "What? This is an entirely different league.".

The mod could have been a bit more active. I kind of have to agree with ABR about the deadlines, but I'm not up in arms over it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yeah...in the other F&Es, I was also a mason, and I took down 2 scum before kicking the bucket. So in this game, I thought, "Hey I'm just going to do the opposite of what I did in the other games to test if I was playing it right before". Epic fail.

I was trying to keep the mason team together as my first priority instead of scumhunting.

How did you guys decide to NK Ojanen?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I was trying to keep the mason team together as my first priority instead of scumhunting.

Huge mistake btw ^^^

[Vi]

Yeah...in the other F&Es, I was also a mason, and I took down 2 scum before kicking the bucket. So in this game, I thought, "Hey I'm just going to do the opposite of what I did in the other games to test if I was playing it right before". Epic fail.

I was trying to keep the mason team together as my first priority instead of scumhunting.

How did you guys decide to NK Ojanen?

The core Mason-tell was that none of the Masons voted for each other. Similarly (and more generally since the previous tell seemed to be more for just this game), wagons on Masons failed to gain any traction. That was how we pegged the entire team easily by N3, and that's why I suggested earlier that this setup should be played quickly so that there's less time for scum to PoE who

can't

be Masons based on the vote pattern.

Even if Ojanen wasn't a Mason, she was a completely neutral kill that didn't change the game state, and that served our purposes nicely, what with the parade of suspects waiting for D3.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm pissed I lost this game. I regret doing so much of the things I did.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Mason QT was extremely fail. Ojanen and Sando were gone most of the time. I'm shocked at how much the scum were plotting against us.

[hitogoroshi]

Hey hito, when I said "So bad at Mafia", I was actually referring to the BaM group.
Both of your gambits ITT were Awesome enough that I asked SpyreX if you could be in, and he said "Hells yes". In other words, it was a compliment.

Oh. Thanks!

I don't really have much in the way of post-game to say. I said everything on my mind throughout the thread. I got some things right and some things wrong and I learned more about mafia, and that's really all you can ask for.

I think I really need to start taking notes when I play games. While being vague and inconclusive helped the last day, I think I was too easily influenced by the most recent posts over and over again and that lack of consistency really robbed my suspicions of any pressuring power.

Also giving that I adeptly pointed out my blind spot without bothering to check it (should have voted Vi, since I found Vi/Zorblag more plausible than VP/{Zorblag, DDD}), it should come as a surprise to no one that I'm a bad driver. >.>

[Albert B. Rampage]

@hito

Never say "Lynch me before you lynch Serialclergyman". That's not remotely pro-town, and you can never predict how people's opinion change. Just because you're town doesn't mean he isn't scum, even if you think you know he isn't, it won't be the way other people see it.

[Vi]

Mason QT was extremely fail. Ojanen and Sando were gone most of the time. I'm shocked at how much the scum were plotting against us.

So am I. Troll was easily the best scumpartner I've had onsite, with an honorable mention going to magnus_orion for one night's chat before I was killed off in Death Note Mafia.

Also, every hammer except the last one was placed when I was asleep or otherwise AFK. I missed the pregame talk entirely. When did EST become an uncommon time zone?

Never say "Lynch me before you lynch Serialclergyman". That's not remotely pro-town, and you can never predict how people's opinion change. Just because you're town doesn't mean he isn't scum, even if you think you know he isn't, it won't be the way other people see it.

It may not be a good Town move, but that sort of thing isn't scum-motivated.
Of course, the other people have to be able to notice that.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's not town-motivated either. That's beside the point, which is that it isn't a pro-town move, as in, it is against the interest of the town to do so.

[Zorblag]

@hitogoroshi, taking notes is a fine idea. When I'm scum I tend to use the scum quick topic for that a little bit (which is why there's so much seemingly trivial stuff in there from me on some topics.) While I do agree with Albert B. Rampage that it's not pro-town to say you want to be killed before someone else I also can't think of a time when I've seen anyone other than town actually do it in a game.

@Albert B. Rampage, what did you expect the scum to do if not plot? In this case we had the advantage of not needing to worry too much about coordinating our day play because I knew that Vi would hold up just fine without it but that discussion during the the night phase to make sure that we're at least lined up about expectations is a pretty key part of a successful scum team in my opinion. I also do pretty much agree with Vi that we had the perfect excuse not to get NK'd as long as we looked like we were trying to pick off masons; we didn't even need to bring that up in the thread, Debonair Danny DiPietro and hitogoroshi took care of that for us.

Even if there's nothing much there I'd be interested in seeing the mason quick topic if no one minds.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Vi]

It's not town-motivated either. That's beside the point, which is that it isn't a pro-town move, as in, it is against the interest of the town to do so.

Why would scum say "lynch me first" unless they believed the other person was Town (and were not forced to say that)?