Polyamory

[Ythill]

I'm involved in a long-term polyamorous relationship and, like most topics, I'm open to talking about it. Over the time I've been here, it's raised some questions and started scattered discussions. I figured it was time for a thread. First I'll answer the most recent questions, then give some general information about our lifestyle before opening the floor for discussion.

Out of interest, ythill, do you ever get worried that your wife will leave you for these guys?

Not worried. The only reason she would have to leave me is to be monogomous with someone else and what choice is that, really? If she can have both of us, why would she pick just him? The only reason I can see is if our relationship has gone sour and, if that's the case, then we would need to end it either way.

I

am

human and there are occassional moments of irrational fear, but they are brief and have grown less frequent and less pronounced as we've gained more experience. So far, these little jealousy bites have been the only major downside weighed against a mountain of benefits.

Do her crushes ever get freaked out that they can't have her to themselves?

Crushes, obv not. I haven't known most of her actual lovers well enough to answer this. The one who became a friend of mine seemed fine with it. Of my own lovers, only one reacted badly to the situation and I ended that relationship quickly as a result.

What is Polyamory

I think the concept means different things to different people. Generally, it's an open relationship with the primary lover, meaning that both partners have sexual and romantic relationships with other people and no need to lie about it. A lot of people seem to think that polyamory and swinging are synonymous but they are not. Swingers generally limit extra-marital interaction to sex, and often do so only when both parties are directly involved (threesomes, wife swapping, etc), whereas poly couples are free to pursue more meaningful relationships and to do so as individuals.

Obviously, polyamory only works in strong, mature relationships based on trust and communication. Both partners must overcome not only overt jealosy, but its more insidious forms. Both must set healthy boundries, be willing to respect those boundries when they are reasonable, and appropriately question them when they are not. IMO, it's also very important for the primary couple to be together for reasons other than simple sex/romance.

Benefits

As you'd expect, this lifestyle conveys many of the benefits of being single. We can flirt, date, fuck, or whatever when the opportunity arises. We can have meaningful platonic friendships with members of the opposite sex without having to deal with paranoia. We can go out with friends, come home late, and not have to answer dramatic questions.

We also enjoy most of the benefits typically associated with being in a normal long-term relationship including love, stability, freindship, etc. Like other married couples, we benefit from the partnership financially, socially, spiritually, and for shared goals like child-rearing. However, being poly has added some perks. There is a level of honesty between us that I have never experienced in a monogomous relationship. When one of us needs to talk (or get advice) about something going on with another lover, we have each other to turn to. Also, with the lack of compulsory monogomy, we are both motivated to keep our relationship fresh and meaningful on a regular basis.

In addition to all of this, there are some side benefits that surprised me. I tend to have a lot in common with the people my wife likes. A few of her crushes and one of her lovers have become good friends that I may never have met if we were in a monogomous relationship. My standards for casual dating have gone down (I'm not looking for Miss Right), alowing me to explore relationships with people I wouldn't have otherwise considered. At the same time, the quality of my long-term non-primary relationships has improved, which I attribute to a combination of two factors: I'm not lonely enough to compromise and I've got a second opinion to help me avoid trouble.

Drawbacks

Jealosy has been the only real drawback between us. We've learned a lot about it. I could probably write an entire post about this subject, so I think I'll just leave it at this: there are levels of jealosy that most people don't see or admit to and that only become obvious once the overt stuff is long gone, but they -like overt jealosy and all fears- can be overcome.

The preconceptions, judgment, and taboos of other people (potential lovers, friends, parents, etc) can be hard to deal with as well. This can manifest as obvious negativity and obstacles, but it's worse when it's less obvious. For example, a lot of girls are fine with casually dating a single guy but not somebody who's married, even though they know I have her blessing. Some will ignore this and date me anyway, then it surfaces as discomfort later when, for example, they are talking to one of their friends about me and happen to mention my wife. Meeting a non-primary's parents is

very

awkward. I think this is similar to the tribulations faced by gays: the way we live is unconventional and a lot of people equate that with immoral.

So...

That's all off the top of my head. If you have questions, feel free to post them. If you have your own experience or conjecture to share, please chime in. And if you just want to make jokes about hitting on my wife, that's okay too.

[Ythill]

How did it come about?

One of you poly and introduced the other to the lifestyle, both poly before meeting or both started mono and became poly?

Both had experience with it before. Started mono because we didn't want paternity to be in question, went poly after our son was born.

"Cheating" into a relationship is like the #1 sin in my book.

I agree with you, if monogomy is the arrangement. Breaking the trust of someone that close to you is just crappy. However, I think that a lot of the damage thought to be caused by "cheating" is actually caused by dishonesty.

How many relationships have you tried to maintain at one time?

Depends on how you define relationship. At one point I had a semi-serious but mostly platonic girlfriend that I hung out with a couple times a week, and another girl that was just a playmate I saw occasionally, but that's far busier than normal. I'd assume it's similar to (but a bit less prolific than) the average single person in my demographic: lots of flirting, an occasional tryst, and a rare special someone that I want to spend a lot of time with.

How do you find the time do such?

My wife and I both work full-time and have our own interests, so there's not a problem there. With the other relationships, they tend to be more like friendships than traditional dating in this regard, which is actually very refreshing in that it doesn't eat up a ton of my time.

Why did you feel the need to share personal details about your life on an internet forum? Do you think this reflects poor judgment or merely an egotistical overestimation of the interest strangers have in your lifestyle?

Both, obv.

It comes up tangentially in a lot of conversations, on here or anywhere. Rather than repeat myself, I figured I'd start a thread. Maybe share experiences with other poly scummers. Those "strangers" who have no interest don't have to be involved.

[Ythill]

How hot are these women of yours, exactly?

Is this where I get to brag? LOL.

Most have been very hot. The ones that weren't have been desireable for other reasons (intellect, stuff in common, etc). I'm not comfortable posting people's pics without their permission but my wife doesn't mind, nor does Danielle, who was a lover of ours for a long time.

How do you think an imbalanced poly relationship works? I mean, assuming both parties are fine with it?

I'm not sure what you mean. What sort of imbalance?

[Ythill]

What if your wife started to date FABIO ????

If he buys her a Ferrari, I get to drive it.

How beneficial is polyamory to you sexual repitoire? (eg. do you guys teach each other techniques you experience with other partners?)

Not so much, but only because we're already very experienced. We would share if it ever came up and maybe it will someday.

LOL @ ABR. I posted enough to answer your question. Both can be found nude online if your google-fu is good enough.

I really think polyamory is a sensible life option, but most people I've talked with seem to automatically discount this as a viable lifestyle. Even when I've been involved in open relationships...

You are hearby recruited into the discussion. I'm by no means an expert and would love to hear answers/opinions from others who have been down this road even a few blocks.

Have you found this to be true?

Absolutely. The two major camps seem to be "let's just do it" and "let's be monogomous eventually" with varying degrees of honesty about their PoV. Those rare exceptions are awesome though.

When you meet someone, do you wait before telling them about your lifestyle? What sort of reactions/opinions/arguments do you get from people?

Assuming that you're talking about potential lovers. I wear a wedding ring and talk about my wife. If there's chemistry, I bring up our lifestyle in a roundabout way. Telling a story that involves two lovers interacting usually avoids the awkwardness. I wasn't always this wise though, and I've gotten some funny reactions. The most entertaining was time I waited to tell the girl until we were on our first date. She shrugged and said, "Nobody's perfect." My absolute least favorite reaction is a flirty rendition of, "I'd be poly too, but I don't think my boyfreind would go for it." Cheaters give me the creeps.

It's an odd situation but um...my friend feels better devoting herself to the person she loves, whereas the person she loves prefers to keep several girls but...she doesn't mind this at all, and generally doesn't feel too jealous about him and such. Is this sort of thing doomed to eventually fail or can it work out?

If it's okay with them I don't see why not. I think the key here is whether the girl in your example is free to do what makes her happy. If she feels like she's allowed to see other people but chooses not to, then I don't see what's wrong with it, except that she'll have to deal with his un-faced fears if and when she changes her mind. If she feels like she's been manipulated into a one-sided situation, then it's not healthy IMO.

[Ythill]

What is the aim of a polyamourous relationship

I'm not sure there's an aim. Maybe to avoid pointless limitations? For me, there's a certain appeal in avoiding the maiden-mother dichotomy, but I don't think that's the founding principal.

I don't want porn...I want Ythill's wife and their ex-lover...

Sigh. Just because I <3 you and whiners should sometimes get their way...

[Ythill]

@UK:

Never been in a BDSM relationship that was more than very temporary, so I'm probably not the person to ask about that. If they say it's working, it probably is.

1. Are you jealuous of this guy?
2. What kind of STD testing do you require from a partner? Are you worried about HSV-1 or HSV-2 or spreading HPV? What physical barrier devices do you use for oral with someone who isn't your primary?
3. Do you think that commitments of limited time duration are more compatible with poly behavior than "for ever and ever and ever"?

1. No, but I do envy his theme music.

2. I don't use oral barriers but I avoid that contact if there's any doubt. We get tested regularly, use condoms and common sense just like when we're single. And have less casual sex. Being poly doesn't mean I shag everything that moves.

3. Very general question. For me, I think having an expiration date would seem too contrived. I like to keep my friends for ever and ever whether we sometimes make-out or not. But then I'm also moving around all the time, so relationships expire naturally anyway.

Did you consider that he might be trolling these forums for possible future partners?

Not since you admitted you're a dude.

4. How much fun could it be to live in a 501(d) intentional community that used acceptance of poly values (like honesty and lack of "ownership" of another person's autonomy) as one of its filtering mechanisms?

I'm not a fan of filtering mechanisms, though I've seen "artistic expression" work out as a good general one. I'm sure we've had this discussion.

Ythill, how did you begin living in such a lifestyle?

I've pretty much always been this way at heart. I'm capable of being mono and have been many times for people I cared about but a fair number of those relationships ended with me getting cheated on, which is great for irony but not much else. There's been two times in my life I've started mono and gone poly. The first was with someone who waited a few months before telling me that she was bi and wanted us to date women, so that wasn't really my doing. With the current relationship, we both wanted to be poly from the start, but neither of us wanted even that 0.001% doubt about paternity, so we waited until Obi was born.

[Ythill]

Its like masturbating, but your friends are there helping you out instead.

I get the feeling that some people think this is all about the sex, and that's really not the case. My "Fabio" persona may be working against me here, but this lifestyle is not as promiscuous as some of you think. It's just as much about flirting, cuddling, going out together, and stuff like that. In that regard, it's much like the life of any normal, single guy on here except that I have a wife too.

Hey ythill, are you open to the possibility of someone else growing or evolving into the position of your (or your wife's) primary lover?

Great question, sorry I missed this one. "Primary" is such a vague title. The answer is yes and no...

On the one hand, our relationship is based very strongly on some things that have nothing to do with being "lovers." Xine and I are excellent at living together, communicating, and working towards shared goals. For instance, I've had an easier and more pleasant time living with her than with any of the dozens of platonic roommates and live-in lovers I've known in the past. In this regard, I can't imagine replacing her and she feels the same way. We're also very dedicated parents; for the next sixteen years we've got a serious shared priority that's more important than any romantic relationship, even our own. In that regard, I don't think either of us is open to changing the situation.

On the other hand, there have already been periods when, due to our schedules and the dynamic nature of new love, one of us has spent more time with another lover than we do with each other. We've talked at length about various possibilities, including a future where we're still parents but not romantic/sexual partners at all. We'd still live together and stay married, at least until our son has left the nest, but aren't attached to being "primary" in other ways. In that regard, we're not entirely against it but I don't know that it would be easy.

On the mysterious third hand, I think the most likely outcome to a situation like that would be a softening or dropping of the "primary" title. It's hard for me to imagine one of us getting that close to someone without the other one feeling a lot of love and respect for that person. If she had a boyfriend that was as perfect for her as I am and she wanted to live with him, probably I'd feel similarly and we'd become a three-person unit. Even more likely with a female, since Xine is bi and I am not.

[Ythill]

???
What kind of a name is "Xine"?

Xmas = Christmas... Xine = Christine
I used to think you were smart.

a hippy name obv

Nope. Like 6/10 hippie girls, she goes by "Sunshine" on the festi scene.

This was the best damn post in the thread until I saw IS was posting.

This thread does need more silliness.

[Ythill]

Good on the assumption. Not so much on the timing.

encoded pet names

The abbreviations called, they want their dignity back.

[Ythill]

Jesus was a hippie.

Except that part where he kept people from getting stoned.

[Ythill]

I've probably mentioned it in passing at some time in the past, but I was in a stable triad for a time.

Binogomy? Did you have primaries or equal footing?

So, you could be doing multiple hot women, but instead you're posting on MS?

You haven't played mafia until you've lynched a GF in LYLO while doing double-cowgirl.

In more seriousness: How does your poly-ness interact with your raising of your son? What would you say to him if you wished to bring another person into your home for a while? What age do you think you will have the 'Son, your mother and I love each other very much, but that girl at the organic food shop is hot AND easy' talk?

I keep him in the loop already and he's had great relationships with our more serious lovers. That's more an aspect of my parenting style than my lifestyle. I don't believe there's such a thing as too young to know the truth.

Better wingman: Xine or Obi?

Obi, obv. He's a little chick magnet.

[Ythill]

K and C and I...

KFC? Thanks for the chicken. And a more serious thanks for understanding that all kinds of relationships fail, which doesn't say anything about the type of relationship it was. Are you still on good terms with C? I'd imagine that overcoming the residual guilt of a bad ending would be an obstacle for the two of you who are still together.

As far as people focusing on the sex aspect of poly relationships, I don't think that is entirely strange since that is the largest distinction between romantic and platonic relationships.

I don't think it is. There's plenty of non-sexual (or pseudo-sexual) behavior that most people refrain from if they're mono. Kissing, slow-dancing, cuddling, sleeping next to each other, lap-sitting, etc, etc, etc. My rainbow experience serves as a good example. I usually have a little harem out there. This year, I kissed nine different women, fully made out with two of them, spent the night sleeping next to one of them, and engaged in a lot of less amorous behavior like cuddling and massages, but I didn't have sex with anybody except my wife.

Do you have a picture of your wife's face with nice shading? With permission to make a glass painting from it...

Yeah, sure. PM me your email addy and I'll send you a couple to choose from. I have a ton of them but most are not online, so let me know if there's a specific angle or color scheme you're looking for or whatever.

Just head please.

[Ythill]

Of course they exist. I know a girl that fits that description exactly, except she plays the violin.

[Ythill]

@VP:

Since you were replying to me, I figured you were using the same context. In which case, the line was somewhere between oral sex and kissing. So, I guess, genital contact.

@da:

Nice quote. It reminds me of Stranger in a Strange Land. When asked what color a distant house is, a fair witness will answer truthfully: it's white on this side.

[Ythill]

Relevant.

[Ythill]

I wish I could be in a polyamorous relationship

No!!!!! You'll ruin the institution of polyamory. It should be a realtionship between a number of men and a number of women. We need to ammend the constitution to prevent gay polyamory or, before you know it, people will be dating multiple horses.

[Ythill]

Just make sure that you enter into it with your

eyes

mouth wide open.

FTFY

I am in one currently, of sorts... That's all I have to say at the moment.

If you knew how curious I am as a person, you'd realize how cruel this is. Spill the beans.

[Ythill]

It absolutely is. And it can be taken even further. For example, I love Danielle dearly and I'd like it if she was a part of my life for the forseeable future, but that doesn't mean I love Xine any less. They have a great relationship too and although they are also lovers, we've had enjoyable triangles where one relationship was platonic. For example, Xine's lover Matt and I became good friends after he started sleeping with my wife.

[Ythill]

Could does not mean wood. Misspelling intentional of course.

[Ythill]

That sounds not so good. Why did you move in?

[Ythill]

There are even better ones.

[Ythill]

I hear you, and I don't mean to stick my nose in your business. Just remember that a long-standing love-hate dynamic is not a good place to heal.

[Ythill]

Man, why would you bring those dirty rapists, ducks, into my hippie love thread? Bear hugging wolf is kinda cute though.

[Ythill]

Do you have another partner in mind? If you don't, tell him that you don't but that you want to be prepared for when you do. If you do... well... stop being so damned insensitive.

Introduce him to a hot guy or two that you know he has a lot in common with. The journey into polyamory is a lot easier if you focus on the benefits instead of the fears.

[Ythill]

How does what work? Individuals' boundaries vary. Probably someone interested in practicing polyamory should be okay with some level of emotional attachment, because it happens.

The most important thing is to be honest and not think selfishly.

[Ythill]

I'm envisioning this weird three-way relationship thing where I love my partner, my partner loves me... but my partner also loves the third person, whereas I have no feelings for that person whatsoever.

Anyone your partner likes enough to keep around is probably going to have a lot in common with you.

Thats your insecurity talking.

QFT.

[Ythill]

I'm really sad to see the evangelism/criticism going on in here.

It's not evangelism. People can do whatever they're comfortable with, but insecurity is insecurity no matter what one's preferences are.

I think jealousy would factor in too heavily.

Personally, I feel that being required to overcome my jealousy was one of the main benefits of becoming poly.

If they are married, he is paying for the possession of exclusivity by pledging half of everything he owns and half of everything he will earn in the foreseeable future. I would be jealous too if someone else gets to have it for free.

You make marriage sound an awful lot like prostitution.

TBM gets it.

[Ythill]

It only bothers me when I consider her loving someone else

instead of

me. Then I realize how silly that is.

[Ythill]

(Unless she takes half your shit with her, which is kinda what I was alluding to earlier.)

Buddha-esque non-materialism is the best pre-nup.

[Ythill]

The Ethical Slut. Apparently they're adapting it for film.

@SV:

I'm assuming this is stemming from the situation you already told us about. Don't know what to tell you here, but I'll try... Jealosy is a poison created by falsely tying our self-worth to the appreciation and attention of others. Figure out what it is that makes you a unique and powerful individual regardless of whether or not you have a lover. I'm guessing it might have something to do with photography. Whatever it is, find your strength there. If Xine ever left me, I'd still be a good writer, a spokesman for truth, a great father, etcetera, and it would be her loss as much as mine.

Loving someone isn't something you feel, it's something you choose. Don't let it make you helpless.

[Ythill]

Have feelings for != love. No offense intended, but you two are still quite young. At your age, I would have absolutely agreed with you, but I've since learned the difference.

[Ythill]

Maybe I just define it differently. Let me try to explain without sounding condescending...

When I was younger, I believed in the concept of falling in love. I thought that when a person made me feel really special in ways that others couldn't inspire, it was some magical mix of emotions and destiny promising me that I'd found The One.^TM Went that route for awhile, but the relationships never worked out in the long term. After my first marriage failed, I took a vow of celibacy and immersed myself in art. During that time one of my meditations revolved around this question: why am I capable of maintaining meaningful friendships for years, but not capable of having an enjoyable long-term romance?

It took me a while to figure it out but I'm pretty sure I know the answer now. I choose my friends based on respect, admiration, and similar tangible things and then act wilfully to foster that same feeling in them, because I appreciate the effect they have on my life. Meanwhile, I was choosing my lovers based on hormones and the idea of "falling in love" which I mistakenly saw as being beyond my control and therefore not a responsability. So I picked Xine the same way I pick my friends, and I make the choice every day to treat her well, consider her happiness, and further our shared goals. She does the same thing, and the way it makes me feel is worlds better than anything else I've experienced. Not because she's The One^TM but, rather, because she's a person who knows how to love.

Don't get me wrong, we've built some magical attatchments over the years, but no part of us being together was based on them. It's the other way around.

[Ythill]

<3

[Ythill]

I try not to make my decisions based on the fear of what

might

happen.

I have no desire to "get the hang of" asexuality. I spent a year of my adult life celibate and had no problems with that but I like sex. Besides, even if I never had sex again, I'd still pursue romantic relationships and I'd still be polyamorous.

[Ythill]

WTF? K changed her name to O.

@Pokerface:

FTR, we mainly got marreied for child-rearing, and we were mono at the time though we both suspected it was a temporary arrangement.

@singer:

I'm glad you found some common ground here. It sounds to me like you two are going about it in a healthy way. As long as there is honesty and respect for each others' feelings, don't be too worried about changing boundaries. You'd laugh if I told you about some of the temporary boundaries we've had.

[Ythill]

Believe it or not, some people (maybe even most people) think love is a good thing. It's been very good to me. I've had some bad experiences with romance of course, but I didn't get all emo about it. I'm too much of an idealist to get jaded, I guess.

IME, polyamory has made for less drama, not more. When I have problems with a girl, I can go cuddle with my wife and feel better.

[Ythill]

Heh. Nightson thinks I'm mature.

[Ythill]

Heh. Nightson thinks I tend.

[Ythill]

I think she is.

[Ythill]

Awesome flick.

[Ythill]

@SFG:

Giving you some hard love here, so take a deep breath before reading... It seems like you're reducing this to math as a vehicle for proving that romance and friendship are bad things, but the fact is that they are not. The only other common denominator in all of your experiences is you. If I were in your shoes, I'd check my behavior, priorities, and expectations and ask myself exactly what it is I am doing to sabotage my own relationships. It's best to do this while not involved in serious relationships.

IME, the most important factor in making the distinction between positive and negative experiences is perspective.

[Ythill]

Don't mind at all.

[Ythill]

@SFG:

You just snubbed a wise woman who has given you some of the best advice you're going to get. Read the first part again, because it's both true and important. When you get to the point where you can comprehend it, go back and read the rest of the post.

SFG: the victim will find the aggressor, and create the aggressor where the wasn't one before.

My wife is a lot nicer than I am, so I'm going to rephrase this in a way I feel is more likely to penetrate...

If your poetry is the emo rubbish I'm guessing it is then, yes, you should stop sharing it with people. Take it one step further and stop sharing any form of expression (including casual converstaion) that is anything like it; your posts in this thread, for example. You're playing the victim. In doing so, you will attract aggressive people and will inspire normal people to behave more aggressively towards you. Even though I understand the psychology involved, I can feel my own aggression rising in response to what you have written. I can see a similar effect in Nightson's post. Even in Xine's, and she's usually more of a victim.

If the cycle continues as it normally does, reading what we've written is going to make you feel angry and wonder why we're being mean to you. When that fades it will be replaced by depression and guilt, which translates to a lack of self-worth, which in turn feeds your perspective that life is something that is happening

to you

(as opposed to

because of you

). Sound familliar? Amplify it times real life and real investment and it's exactly what's keeping you from enjoying relationships.

Please note that you immediately fell into finding fault. I don't know anything about your life but I do know that every detail you gave was a plea for absolution. Obviously it's not your fault because it's somebody else's, right? Stop translating your upbringing into guilt, and stop displacing that guilt by blaming your sorrows on things beyond your control. Life is pain; people are ignorant, blundering fools; everything we build crumbles. None of that is anyone's fault. Even if we could reasonably point a finger it doesn't matter because

the only person you can change is yourself

. Stop placing blame, start finding solutions. Here's a good one...

You know that hole in you? The heart shaped one or whatever? The one you write poetry about that is gnawingly empty and waiting for you to find the right person or calling or whatever to fill it up so that you can be whole? You need to realize that it doesn't exist. You are a whole person. This is as good as it gets.

The only thing that makes it better is to stop concentrating on how fucked up it is and start looking at the good things.

So many people believe in that hole. They toil themselves sick, trying to fill it with possessions and accomplishments and people who "love" them. When they start to fear that it can't be filled, they place expectations on their children to fill it for them or they get so jaded that they start to think that the act of feeding that hunger is the meaning of life. That's where you're headed. And if you think getting beat up in the cafeteria is bad, just wait until your son tells you that he hates you. It won't be his fault either and all the blaming in the world won't make him want to talk to you again.

Remember, I'm taking the time to write this because I care about you and I want you to be happy.

Take a year off of romantic relationships. Read the Tao of Pooh and meditate on the Uncarved Block. Write one poem per month about the beauty of the world. Count the flowers in a meadow. Laugh at a big mistake. Beg for your bus money. Take care of someone who is dying. Pray even if you don't believe in god. Stay up all night to watch the sunrise. Teach a child something important. Help someone who has hurt you. Go camping by yourself. Give away your three favorite things. Hug a stranger without speaking first. Dance in the rain.

If any of these things seems silly or frightening to you, do it more than once.

You are a goddess and life is your playground. Once you know that, nothing can hurt you.

[Ythill]

That's an awesome level of discernment, Ythan.

[Ythill]

Me too.

[Ythill]

Damn. Giant ninja. Imma post, then catch up.

I'm sorry to have taken over your topic and made you and your wife and the others upset. Please forgive me.

Your posts were on-topic and would be permissable even if they were not. I don't think anyone is upset. However, please examine the tone of the responses carefully. If you can understand the dynamic that is drawing out people's aggression here, you can apply that understanding to other relationships.

I'm a little insulted by your description of my poetry. I've had teachers tell me I should get it published before so I don't think it qualifies as "emo shit" even if it does get a little bit sad. If you don't believe me, you can look for yourself.

You've appealed to the authority of people who are paid to encourage you. They are correct. Your use of language is commendable and I can see that poem you linked making the cut for a teen publication. So yes, keep writing. However, my guess was right and your subject matter is... well... I'll refrain from insulting you again. You're a good writer. Someday, if you find your bliss, you'll be a great one.

On the other hand, I feel like your second long paragraph is predicting something that has already happened

Of course, it's a cycle. Yours may not be exactly like the typical one I mentioned, but it needs to be broken.

I just assume its somehow my fault and eat it as best as I can.

More finger pointing. Blaming yourself is at least as counterproductive as blaming others. Seriously, stop trying to figure out who's fault it is.

On the topic of holes, I'm not sure you're actually being accurate.... But every time I've tried, I start getting this choking feeling that rises into panic, I can't breathe... maybe if I were stronger but...I can't take that.

It's a powerful illusion. Probably moreso for you because you are smart and imaginative. You don't overcome it by cutting yourself off from things but, rather, by becoming absorbed in things. Read that checklist I gave you and then start actually doing the things on it. TBM had some great suggestions as well.

The praying one is a bit weird but I've done nearly all of those things (Except camping by myself, I require electricity to get out of bed in the morning so that wouldn't be great)... Of course you need to pick the person you hug carefully.

Heh. Now we know which ones Max needs to do more than once.

On praying, the benefit lies not in the notion that someone or something might be listening. The act of speaking aloud to an "entity" that you treat as omiscient is a great exercise for strengthening the honesty and self-awareness of one's internal dialogue.

...the whole hippy wishy washy finding yourself thing...

Too late. Your cover is already blown.

[Ythill]

@Singer:

I'm more concerned with the chemical solutions than I am with religious ones. Medication should always be a last resort. But <3 back atcha.

Your ability to give love is not limitless. In an ideal world it would be, but the reality is that you can get tapped dry. There are people whom you should not give love to, people who will drain it and give nothing back, people who will outright abuse it.

You're doing it wrong.

[Ythill]

While I haven't exactly shunned that part of me because I believe in it, I've learned how to tone it down, and take every relationship I form with a grain of salt.

For comparison's sake... you're doing it right.

[Ythill]

@Singer:

Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of. Careful with dropping off medications on your own though. If it's not too personal, what did you stop taking? I'm guessing Ativan. Did you titrate?

Love isn't a zero sum game.

...you can't love everybody the same way.

These things are true, IME. Another truism: we need to feed people every day, but we can't force them to eat.

[Ythill]

Love isn't about getting, it's about giving.

(WTF? Thread explosion!)

[Ythill]

@Max:

You are hereby excused from camping by yourself.

um...how am I supposed to know when I should be fixing myself if I can't tell when something was my fault or not?

Fixing yourself has nothing to do with blame. The way to tell if you need work is by asking yourself whether you are satisfied with things as they are. If not, do the things on the list I gave you. I have nothing to gain by misleading you.

The same thing goes with selfishness, if you people are saying that allowing myself to receive more than I'm worth is not selfish, and if I believed you, then how would I know what selfishness was or where the line is drawn?

Once you are meeting your own needs, there will be little motivation to be selfish. Until then, there's nothing else you can be no matter how hard you try.

I do play a musical instrument...

Sweet. Add

play accompaniment to a stream

to your to-do list.

[Ythill]

Geting hit by lightning is definately not on the list, but near misses are OMFG COOOOOL!!!!

[Ythill]

I'm fine with digression...

sex... little mermaid...

...how did you and your wife/previous relationships stumble upon this lifestyle anyway?

I'll let Xine speak for herself. My story is complicated but here's a summary: my first serious gf was still in love with her ex and went back and forth between us every couple of weeks, which sucked. Eventually I told her that she could date both of us but if she left me again, we weren't getting back together. After saying that, I was poly for a few years until I had a bad experience that amplified my jealousy. I was mono for many years after but never really happy with it. Had an especially bad experience with monogomy in my most recent failed relationship (gf secretly sleeping with lots of people while I was saying no to extreme temptation). When my current relationship started, Xine was of the belief that one steady person wasn't enough to fulfill her and my stance was that I wasn't going to say no to extreme temptation, lest I harbor needless resentment. We were monogomous for a couple years while conceiving our son, and it kinda became a habit. Then I met the afforementioned extreme temptation and thus began the first rocky steps of learning polyamory.

The act of speaking aloud to an "entity" that you treat as omiscient is a great exercise for strengthening the honesty and self-awareness of one's internal dialogue.

You mean like posting on the internet?

Claus thinks we're omniscient.

Ythill, I sense a blind date coming on.

I went on one of those once. One of the most awkward and unfulfilling experiences of my life. I don't buy lottery tickets either.

Ohai scumchatters.

[Ythill]

@esurio:

Shea's a prince in a frogsuit.

[Ythill]

Well, to take Oman's side for a moment, cajoling someone by saying, "sex is the only thing you can do to help me," over and over again until they consent isn't rape, IMO. It's pitiful, but that's another discussion.

One problem with talking about "rape" is that, like "love," it's a word with a wide range of intensely personal meanings. I think that frank discussion about experiences is more constructive than arguing about a buzzword. On a realted topic (that has been coming up a lot today for some reason), anyone who has not seen the Vagina Monologues should do so at their next available opportunity.

[Ythill]

No actually I was proposing an idiological marriage.

[Ythill]

Um... esurio... he specifically said that people who believe things like what you said

annoy him less than

people who [insert the things you mistook as being directed at you]. To reverse this to your perspective, imagine you said, "Coercive and abusive people bother me, but not as much as serial rapists do."

@Oman:

I don't think your idiology could handle ours combined. I can almost feel you feeling the dreadlocks already.

[Ythill]

Nothing wrong with flipping out a little.

Oman's good people. Helped me potty train my son.

(BTW, Obi's almost done with that. Last week he learned to ride his bike (still with training wheels). This morning he woke me up reciting the states in alphabetical order. Made it to Nebraska without any help. He turned three in March. The five-year-olds in our complex don't even know what state they live in.)

[Ythill]

It doesn't have much to do with education. He taught himself by watching a DVD he picked out at the library. There's a scene at the end where they flash images of monuments they've talked about in the film and he names them rapid-fire like he's testing himself. The kid's phenominal.

(There you are, Shea. I was just looking for you in scumchat.)

[Ythill]

you are bigger than her.

That's a serious assumption. Just sayin.

I've worked with a lot of people with learning disabilities. Hearing

them

refer to something dumb or anoying as "retarded" went a long way towards helping me understand that morphing language doesn't always go both ways. It's no different than someone referring to an unexpected or strange experience as "crazy." Just newer.

[Ythill]

@Ad:

The double dash threw me off more than anything. And the fact that I've known lots of men who court/date/etc women larger than them.

It will be if Ythill is on target

Did I tell you about that?

[Ythill]

Well... as much as Haylen's alts discussing romance seems to be on topic in a polyamory thread... yeah... please take drama to PMs... a lock here would make me sad.

sweet, really good rain right now. Gonna wrap up my laptop in plastic and take a slow walk home

Awesome, how was it? My first grown-up "dancing in the rain" experience happened after a night of incredible realizations. Waxing pantheist here but... it made me laugh at umbrellas which are pieces of god meant to keep god from falling on god.

Up or away?

Away is better, IME. Also, if your favorite things are professional recording equipment or a digital SLR, I'll PM you my address.

@Izzy:

Lovin' the sig. That poem is one of my favorites and actually came to mind when I was writing the to-do list earlier.

I hear he once shot a girl in the eye

In truth, the response that sparked this (Did I tell you about that?) was a joke. However, now that I think about it, I have shot a few people in the eye. The funniest was during sex that followed a conversation about how spew in the eye hurts and should be avoided and then, when it happened a couple hours later, I was like, "OMG, lookout! LOL." But uh... yeah.... can we talk about something else?

[Ythill]

I hear he once shot a girl in the eye

/confirm

[Ythill]

Didn't I already answer that?

Alright, what's everyone's favorite sex position?

1. Goalie. No, wait... pitcher. Or... center?
   
2. It honestly depends entitrely on the number of participants, their sexual preferences, and physical attributes.
   
3. Re-emphasis: poly != swinging, though there's crossover.

[Ythill]

@shaft:

Let's call it "table leg."

@TBM:

Link goes to 404. What, exactly are you asking?

@AniX:

First, I'm going to repeat that polyamory might be the key to satisfaction in romance for you. By acting as primary to a woman who is a non-primary sexual partner elsewhere. Also, out of curiosity, if you were in the right situation, would you have sex for the utilitarian purpose of procreation?

[Ythill]

I don't know SV's story but, typically, what is referred to as a sex addiction (i.e. nymphomania) is a strong psychological connect between sexual activity and self-worth. Sexual activity triggers mania, the lack of it triggers depression. A typical sex addiction is not satisfied by masturbation, because it has as much to do with the interaction as it does the physical stimuli. There's another condition, I forget what it's called, that causes near permenant physical arousal but it's a physiological disorder and isn't considered an addiction.

[Ythill]

Wait... there are shelves in your balls? How come mine only have a davenport and a coat tree?

I'm trying to think of a way to nudge this thread back on topic but I'm at a loss. Maybe I should mention that the closest I've had to having a secondary gf in this relationship is Danielle. I've known her for a couple of years and saw her regularly for most of it (until we moved away) but have only had sexual contact with her 5-6 times. I've had flings that were more lustful, but they were less satisfying. One interesting aspect of polyamory is that I am open to dating while not lacking a regular sex partner and it changes the dynamic considerably.

[Ythill]

Ythill, how close has your Wife got to having a secondary bf?

She can answer this better than I.

Has having Obi changed the dynamics of your

poly-amorality

polyamory?

You mean other than providing an outlet for the hot babysitter fantasy? We have less time now but otherwise, no.

[Ythill]

There's nothing magical about semen.

Practicioners of folk magic disagree, as do many others.

[Ythill]

It'll stray back on topic from time to time.

We don't have any explicit PDA boundaries. I don't think either of us would exclude the other from affection in any setting, but that's more about mutual respect. I can see avoiding PDA in some situations (ex: I'm not going to snuggle with another lover in front of my mother-in-law) based on common sense/courtesy but there are no hard and fast rules. We're pretty open about our lifestyle.

[Ythill]

How have you dealt with it in the past and is there anything in particular that you found helpful in overcoming it?

Meditating on the worst case scenario and realizing I'd still be happy, pouring my fear into creativity, and healing my ego by bringing an extremely desirable lover to ecstacy have all been very helpful. It's something that gets easier the more you overcome it. I guess most fears are like that.

Also, how have you approached potential partners about poly, including your current ones?

It really depends. At the begining I waited for the "right moment" to tell people and that never seemed to work out. These days, I'm just open and upfront about it with everyone, regardless of whether or not either of us has an interest in the person. It makes for an interesting conversation piece and removes the awkwardness when chemistry becomes apparent.

@Singer:

Do you realize you've issued a challenge?

[Ythill]

Xine, you have never sounded more like my alt.

[Ythill]

@TBM:

I don't take mine off. She

can't

take hers off. We really need to get it resized before gangrene sets in.

@Ythill&Xine...what are your boundaries with sharing your house/bed with other people? Do you? Or do you keep it at the other lovers' places?

It's not very clear-cut. I'd rather not have Xine bring lovers home at all, because her partners tend to be short-term and I don't want to expose our family to the potential problems. However, if she had a long-term lover that was welcome in our home, I wouldn't really care where they did it. She's comfortable with me playing at our house, but the bed is off-limits with a few specific exceptions. I wouldn't bring a one-night stand home for the same reason I don't want her to, but that's more about my own discernment than hers. When we've shared lovers, we haven't had any rules about where.

One thing you learn pretty quickly in this lifestyle is that avoiding double-standards is kinda silly.

Is it full disclosure with each other? How much do you want to know?

We've gone through phases. At first every detail was important. Then we went through a period of "don't ask, don't tell." Now things are a lot more natural. We talk about things that are relevant, or that we're curious about, or whatever comes up in conversation.

What are your boundaries like, singer? How have they changed? Same questions to Flay.

[Ythill]

One thing you learn pretty quickly in this lifestyle is that avoiding double-standards is kinda silly.

So -- if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying it's okay to have double-standards, and perhaps even

expected

normal?

Yes, especially in a male-female relationship. The dating scene is very different based on gender. For example, arranging one-night stands with safe, sane, attractive partners is easier for females.

[Ythill]

I'm noting the perjoratives assigned to promsicuous feamles ITT as evidence of the cultural bias that keeps women prudish.

[Ythill]

In all honesty, my boyfriend and I have had this problem, and it's something I feel guilty about constantly. We both have pretty high standards for partners as it is, but it only ever seems like I'm the only one with something on the side. I find it much easier to find a guy who doesn't mind dating a girl who's already attached (and not just fucking, mind you, but legit dates and stuff), than he does finding a girl who doesn't get weird out by the thought of him being attached.

I forgot to respond to this earlier. I think it's balanced and, occasionally, corrected by the fact that women are far more likely than men to engage in threesomes. Women that you share will be more likely to date him afterwards. Another way to fix this is girl talk. If you meet the women he's interested in, a subtle combination of bragging about him, poly-claiming, and matchmaking will make them feel more comfortable with the situation.

[Ythill]

Ya think?

[Ythill]

I thought I smelled wood burning.

[Ythill]

@Ythill&Xine...how do you guys feel about different partners liking different things (i.e. being clean shaven or not). My boyfriend likes it when I grow it out a bit, but my other partner likes it smooth. I personally like it smooth, but have been "humoring" (if you will) my boyfriend because he likes it...now I don't want him to think that I shave just for the other guy, but because I've stopped letting it grow, it's kind of been catering to what the other guy wants instead.

I'm curious as to your answer to this question. I don't know if you purposely ignored it (and if you did, feel free to do the same again) or if you just missed it.

Yeah I think I got lost in the visuals. The answer is: it's never really come up.

Despite being one twisted fuck, most of the girls I date tend to be pretty 'nilla

Better that than a PGO or SK.

[Ythill]

Um... singer? If you're not into fingering or oral, what do you do with other chicks thats so appealing? Just curious.

[Ythill]

So do two girls doing the afforementioned deed. If we call it forking, then the same act where one girl is an amputee is called salad forking.

Damnit, I don't want to turn this into the guys thread but I couldn't resist that joke.

[Ythill]

I'll tell my wife you said that.

[Ythill]

Oh... I just did and she spouted off a bit of scumhunting.

Plus, I like kissing, and unless I'm feeling particularly in the mood, I tend to have a gag reflex when tasting myself. I know, I suck. I like the smell, though...

I don't mind doing those things

to

a girl...

Explain plz.

[Ythill]

Hmmmm...

[Ythill]

Ythill, how much do yours and Xine's parents know about your relationship?

Not much. I'm not very close to my parents, so it hasn't really come up. Xine's close to her mother, but it's one of those situations where her need to know does not outweigh the awkwardness of telling her.

[Ythill]

Neither of us has stayed out beyond the wee hours, except the time Xine got with a lover at a gathering. For me, that's just my personality. Even when I've been single, I like to sleep and wake-up in my own space. We've had lovers spend the night at our house though.

My most serious relationship was (and is) a FWB that I dated off and on for about a year and still technically am though it's a long distance thing at this point. She and I have an agreement that I refrain from tempting her when she's mono with somone else, so much of the time we've spent together has been completely platonic. She's also been Xine's lover in the past, so that makes things more comfortable all around.

[Ythill]

And... then we get an example of monogomy gone wrong.

Hey GT, want to make out? I'll never lie to you.

[Ythill]

Heh. I just figured it might make you feel better.

Tell you what. If our ideologies have common ground, we can change the world together. Actually, if you're as serious about it as I am, then we already are. But I'm going to be long gone whenever you're on your deathbed. So remember that the make-out offer is limited time only.

(In all seriousness, you seem like a cool person, GT. Don't let some douchebag get you down.)

Ninja'd by Hoops... true words.

[Ythill]

So getting stood up on my birthday doesn't mean I'm too old.

Whew.

[Ythill]

Or I made it too clear. It's a fine line.

[Ythill]

No. But one of them lives close enough to hear Xine squealing.

[Ythill]

I honestly don't know what to do.

I knew we hadn't been close for a while

I'm sorry you have to deal with his judgment, but there's not much you can do about it.

[Ythill]

Heh. You should see my inbox.

[Ythill]

Heh. You should see my inbox

es

,

if you know what I mean

.

FTFY

This is the poly thread, after all.

[Ythill]

It's never prevented a friendship. The closest I've gotten to scorn was from a Xian boy @ work, who said he finds the

idea

disgusting because we're married but also clarified that, if it worked for us, then it wasn't really any of his business.

In comparing our experiences, don't forget to consider the gender-polarization of social norms. The same dynamic that causes the slut/stud dilemma probably guides some reactions to polyamory. Stupid as it is, our culture grants more leeway for promiscuity to males.

[Ythill]

On the one hand, it's sad to see a 25 page topic devolve into the gay marriage debate. On the other, it's tangentially related and there's been a couple of interesting points raised.

Me? I'd just abolish civil marriage and the social-engineering tax breaks that go with it, make things like visitation rights and the ability to designate your own next of kin as universal to all adults, and let whoever the hell wants to call themselves 'married' to whoever the hell else, with whatever amount of accompanying ceremony get on with it. It'll never happen, because straight marriage is popular, but still.

I agree with most of what Fonz posted, even the stuff from this quote, but I disagree that the tax benefits of marriage are entirely social engineering. My take is that socially bonded couples (or groups) are likely to require less governmental service than an equal number of single adults, simply because there is a tendancy to share benefits. I'd lean more toward restructuring than abolishion.

The law doesn't exist to protect the sanctity of your religious ceremonies.

You can take this one step further. It is

specifically forbidden from doing so by the US Constitution

.

To bring this closer to the OT, I'm not sure if polyamory raises as serious objections as homosexuality does to the institution of marriage. Polygamy would, but the situation we're talking about here doesn't grant the marriage rights to third parties. The objection is, instead, raised against the conduct of otherwise "appropriately" married individuals. Poylamory is no more detrimental to the definition of marriage than gold-digging or temporary separation, and it is markedly less so than either infidelity or divorce.

[Ythill]

Did you and Xine compose your own vows? I rather suspect you did, and it's actually quite important here.

We had two weddings. The first, our religious ceremony, was entirely silent. I think the second might have included some generic vows but, in our heads, it was no more sacred than signing up for food stamps.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this. If Mark Bellhorn got elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, it would make saying 'I'm a baseball hall of famer' a less specific or valuable thing.

This is a horrible comparison. Entrance to the hall of fame is based solely on achievement in baseball. Entrance into marriage has and always will be based on different things for different people.

Same as how when Sarah Palin used the US Flag as a tablecloth in a photoshoot, a lot of people were pissed. No-one argued 'you should have the flag mean to you what it means to you, and let her do with it as she pleases.'

Ad populum is silly, especially when we're talking about dogma. Just because a lot of people are offended by a particularly colored table cloth does not mean that they are in the right or that we should respect their wishes. I guess I don't have a problem with people

feeling

that way or communicating those feelings but, the moment they act on them, they've taken it too far.

How does a polyamorist view polygamy, Mormon-style?

Personally, it's too chauvanistic for me. I doubt that I'd ever get "married" more than once, simply because our marriage was inspired and defined by our child-rearing and I'm not having any more children. However, if we ever did bring someone else into our life on that level of intimacy, it would be someone we both loved and lusted equally. Even then, I'd assume it was temporary.

IME, a long-term secondary romantic relashionship needs to be flexible, because it has to be able to adjust from sexual to platonic whenever the secondary partner enters into a monogomous romantic relationship with someone else.

Wat.

SP posting in GD? In the poly thread? There is hope in the world.

[Ythill]

Heh. Solemnize is funny in that context (see: ACM's link).

An interesting detail from singer's quoted standard vows... all four mention a promise to love. Which suggests it's an act and/or decision rather than an emotion that one operates under the influence of. And who's been saying that all along?

Looks like the poly guy is operating closer to the traditional marriage vows than the status quo.

[Ythill]

I mean this bit:

I, (Name), take thee, (Name), to be my wedded wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, 'til death do us part.

Where do you read monogomy in there? 100% of this applies to my open marriage. What's more, I'd argue that "for worse" could be construed as a vow to remain married despite jealousy.

Same reason I don't like the idea of atheist Godparents- you can't possibly mean what you're saying.

You're making the same mistake here. To some, the godparent role has nothing to do with religion but is, instead, a way of designating guardians in case of the death of the parents.

It's strange, I find myself agreeing with most of the points that you put thought into but there are a few things you've said off-the-cuff and then argued for that make it sound like you were raised with and are defending an extremely narrow and religiously slanted view of familial arrangements. Strange because of the disconnect.

[Ythill]

all the young guys that are left behind, it just ain't right

Reminds me of seed camp. The male:female ratio is about 10:1, but most of the guys are gutter-punks and bliss-ninnies who don't get much lovin.' Meanwhile, all the girls who are there are flocking around the alphas.

I've never, ever heard the term applied to someone who wasn't literally there taking the vows to reject the devil, repent of sin and accept Christ as savior on behalf of the child in denominations that practise infant baptism.

Obi wasn't baptized, but he has godparents. It's not uncommon among counter-culture families.

Practising Catholic mother, ardently Atheist father.

Must have made for interesting conversation. Did they disagree about your upbringing?

[Ythill]

You ignorant bastard.

You fucking presumptive prick.

bigot

I'm guessing you'll all be posting in the period thread in a couple of days.

Fonz was reared in a home divided between religion and atheism, it's not surprising he's unfamilliar with the spiritual-pagan middle ground of the various countercultures. And this is as good a place as any for him to learn about them. Truth is, much of the counterculture is made up of people who were raised xian but were turned off by the heirarchy and conformity. Many of us have retained the terminology with altered meanings, because those words describe important aspects of spiritual life. For example, Rainbow kids say "church" or "cathedral" to mean a quiet, natural place. We "pray," partake in "sacrament," "testify," etcetera, all in ways that would make an orthadox xian say, "You're doing it wrong."

I mentioned this thread to Xine, which inspired an irl chat about marriage traditions that touched on many of the same talking points we've had here. She noted that, when her grandparents took their vows, things were different. Her grandmother vowed to "love, honor, and

obey

." Her grandfather vowed to "love, honor, and

respect

." In that sense, feminism is as much an afront to the sanctity of marriage as polyamory is. The point here is that as a culture moves from more to less discriminatory, we have to expect the traditions to change as well. People who don't aren't bigots by definition, but they are clinging needlesly to the dogma of bigotry.

[Ythill]

I learned a new word! Thanks Flay.

[Ythill]

Glad to have been of service.

[Ythill]

Yth

an

isn't Fabio any longer.

gg zf

Heh.

I went to an EDM party tonight. Met a few young poly people. It was interesting to see other people react to them, though I think the lot of the judgments got lost behind the appeal of fact that two of them were attractive, scantily clad females that kept making out with and groping each other.

[Ythill]

Cheaters suck. Their punishment is fewer threesomes.

[Ythill]

Cheaters suck. Their punishment is fewer threesomes.

Hey, whoa,

No.

Heh. I didn't mention your name in my observation. Over-defensive much?

I'm pretty sure that monogamy is implied when you're dating someone.

This thought process is what that causes many misunderstandings in relationships.

QFT. Developing feelings based upon an implication is not a good idea. Frank communication FTW.

What am I getting here? What am I so selfishly getting out of this?

Attention, affection, and gratitude from three young women. At the cost of their feelings.

Who am I to have a blond girl come up, wondering why I hadn't talked to her and very lonely in a new state, and refuse her advances because of the "stigma of lying" in society? Who am I to not be supportive and caring toward a girl who had two kids very young and barely has time to fill any of her own needs, aka who WILL care about her?

...

I rather be, as I said in my last post, "whatever they need me to be" in their life.

FFS, you're trying to paint this as altruism? You are not providing what they want. You are pretending to. You are empowering them to open their hearts based on a carefully crafted illusion. Eventually that trust will be broken and the damage it does could last a lifetime. How much time have they wasted on you? How many times will they be afraid to trust people after this house of cards comes tumbling down?

If you care about them even a little, stop lying to them right now.

[Ythill]

There has been a new development in my life.

Danielle (aka Dan! but only Obi, Xine, and I are allowed to call her that) will be arriving in Portland in about two weeks. She will be living with us for at least two months and perhaps indefinitely. Not sure what the balance of romantic:platonic will be, but this seemed like the appropriate place to share.

Dan! was previously referenced ITT.

[Ythill]

Heh. Was taking a stroll down memory lane and rediscovered this...

The reward is fame.

Do I have to quote Boethius again?

Only if Ignatius Reilly would approve.

Makes a lot more sense now that I've read A Confederacy of Dunces. Good book.

[Ythill]

It's possible. She has punched people for using the nickname. In her own words, "That shit's sacred!"

@Oman:

I'm not a pimp. Just sayin.

[Ythill]

Um... why are all the soldiers hanging out in my hippie love thread? That could get you a court martial, y'know.

Not nearly as bad as those dirty rapists, ducks, though.

Also Dan! could totally beat Oman. There's a reason for the exclamation point.

[Ythill]

What would that say about the period in your name?

(No of course she doesn't have a penis.)

[Ythill]

I was making a pun.