Open 218: Two-fold C9 - Game Over

[inHimshallibe]

XScorpion (1) Chronopie
inHimshallibe (3) Mr. Chaos, easjo682, Elscouta
Elscouta (1) Mr.Sandman
Chronopie (2) Toon Fighter, ODDin
easjo682 (2) Scott Brosius, XScorpion
Toon Fighter (1) Slepz
ODDin (2) Beefster, inHimshallibe
12 alive; 7 votes lynch.

I probably am, but I saw fit to try this hard given my personally perceived pace of the game. I would very much like things to pick up.

[Elscouta]

I voted ODDin because he claimed his vote was

better

than a random vote. I would have been OK with "more than a random vote" or "finally, something besides a random vote" but "better"? No, that's dishonest.

This sentence is an impressive pile of crap.

[inHimshallibe]

I voted ODDin because he claimed his vote was

better

than a random vote. I would have been OK with "more than a random vote" or "finally, something besides a random vote" but "better"? No, that's dishonest.

This sentence is an impressive pile of crap.

For the most part.

I'm casting for nibbles.

[Mr.Sandman]

inHim uses someone trying to come out of RVS as a reason for voting, then says:

I probably am, but I saw fit to try this hard given my personally perceived pace of the game. I would very much like things to pick up.

unvote, vote in Him

[inHimshallibe]

inHim uses someone trying to come out of RVS as a reason for voting, then says:

I probably am, but I saw fit to try this hard given my personally perceived pace of the game. I would very much like things to pick up.

unvote, vote in Him

What do those things have to do with each other? Also, I plainly stated I was not attacking ODDin's post for "trying to come out of RVS"; it was a word choice thing.

[Scott Brosius]

What's wrong with trying to end the RVS?

[Mr.Sandman]

'Scummy bandwagoning propoganda' sounds very much like you don't like his vote because it attempts to start a bandwagon out of the RVS. Just because you chose to explain it by using the second part of what you said doesn't take away from that. Hence, the two are closely related - you say he's scummy for finding a reason to come out of the RVS and then you say you were annoyed at the pace of the game being too slow. They seem to me to be contradictory

[inHimshallibe]

No, the use of the word "better" was what I was claiming was the "propaganda."

Starting bandwagons isn't inherently scummy, as they are the town's main tool.

However

, when I read ODDin's post, I thought he was using devious means to get others to join the bandwagon.

[Mr.Sandman]

As in you thought he had a weak reason for starting a bandwagon, and that the bandwagon he started was therefore just the same as an RVS bandwagon?

[inHimshallibe]

Alright, this is silly, and I won't continue this muddying of the waters. I won't drop my vote, though, because such an attack on my vote of ODDin is intriguing given the setup.

[ODDin]

Starting bandwagons isn't inherently scummy, as they are the town's main tool.

However

, when I read ODDin's post, I thought he was using devious means to get others to join the bandwagon.

Ooh yeah, I was certainly being devious. As devious as it gets.
Seriously, do you actually think that scum-me sat down and thought "hmm, yeah, I'm gonna use the word 'better' and that's gonna make the whole town follow me blindly onto the wagon"? How does that even make sense?

Also, I don't quite see how the setup makes sandman's actions any more intriguing than usual.
Although he is, I think, digging too much into things, like lots of people here. People really need to sit back and ask themselves "hey, do I actually think that scum-X sat and plotted and decided to do what he did as part of his scum strategy?"
This is, for instance, why I think scorp's argument on eas is pretty crappy. It doesn't really make sense for scum-eas to fool around any more than it does for town-eas.

[Beefster]

Hmm. I'm still digesting. The RVS can be annoying.

Keep in mind that we have 4 scum in this game. Less people to trust, etc. Not only that, but you can't really look for affiliations because of the 2 factions.

I'm gonna try asking questions. It got the ball rolling into a good discussion back when Netopalis used them in my first newbie game. (I still disagree with questions like "are you nervous?")

1. How long have you been playing Mafia? (inside and outside MS)
2. How would you describe your meta?
3. What's your win/loss record?
4. Favorite setup?
5. What do you think is the biggest scum tell?
6. How do you make your decisions?

[ODDin]

Keep in mind that we have 4 scum in this game. Less people to trust, etc. Not only that, but you can't really look for affiliations because of the 2 factions.

Why not? There are still two pairs, so you can still look for connections between the pairs. It's just that if you reach a conclusion that "no way these two are a scum team", they can still both be scum of different teams.

I'm gonna try asking questions. It got the ball rolling into a good discussion back when Netopalis used them in my first newbie game. (I still disagree with questions like "are you nervous?")

It's as if you're going out of your way to help the town and get the game out of the RVS... when we're already out of it.

1. How long have you been playing Mafia? (inside and outside MS)
2. How would you describe your meta?
3. What's your win/loss record?
4. Favorite setup?
5. What do you think is the biggest scum tell?
6. How do you make your decisions?

1. Umm, first time I played mafia in a forum about... 5 years ago, maybe. Since then I played in that other forum and in real life. On MS, you can see in my join date.
2. Hmm. I think the games in which I was scum were the games where I was least suspected, funnily enough. I can sometime get lazy and lose interest in games (especially since I've got lots of work with my studies), which is why I've decided to play only one game at a time, which helped me be more active. So, I guess I play a lot better when I'm only playing in one game at a time.
Scorpion is the only one here who's played with me before (a game where I was scum). Maybe he can tell more.
But, you can help yourself to my wiki and read my games.
3. 4 wins, 6 losses.
4. Umm, I haven't played too many games, but I think I'd go with the setup of the Zombies game I was in. Playing cult proved surprisingly fun, even though I lost.
5. Consciously lying, although that's a somewhat cheap answer. (I might as well say "claiming scum".) Other than that... giving in under pressure, I'd say.
6. Well, my last two games brought me to the conclusion that I'm probably not too good in making my conclusions, since I was embarrassingly wrong with most of my cases there. I think I'm going to try an approach of trying to create a behavioural picture of each player, and judge how all their actions fall into place under various assumptions, rather than look on tells in a more isolated fashion, which is more how I approached it previously.
I was also pretty impressed by iLord's play in Zombies, who made some amazingly correct conclusions based on judging others "behaviourally". So, I think I'll try to mimic that too (and probably fail miserably ).

[ODDin]

EBWOP: There are still two pairs, so you can still look for connections

between

within the pairs.

[XScorpion]

It doesn't really make sense for scum-eas to fool around any more than it does for town-eas.

Actually, I've tried playing VI as scum before. It tends to create a lot of useful WIFOM and is especially useful when there are no cops to investigate you (as may be the case in this game), and becomes even more powerful when people like you start defending it. His play should be discouraged, because having a VI on later days of the game is very dangerous.

1. How long have you been playing Mafia? (inside and outside MS)
2. How would you describe your meta?
3. What's your win/loss record?
4. Favorite setup?
5. What do you think is the biggest scum tell?
6. How do you make your decisions?

1. 15 Aug 2009 apparently.
2. Unpredictable.
3. If I counted correctly, 4-6
4. I liked assassin in the palace, even though it ended abruptly last time I played
5. Lying/self-contradiction
6. I flip a coin of course. Who uses critical thinking or logic these days?



Also I see ODDin just posted before me. In regards to our last game, the only reason I didn't suspect him at all was because Zorblag swore to his innocence. Bad call
And yeah, ODDinscum didn't seem to pay much attention, which is probably why we didn't realize what he was doing.

[Elscouta]

FoS: Beefster

Why ignoring what is currently happening and divert the town attention? What's your opinion on the inHim wagon?

[Beefster]

I'll take a look at it. I'm playing 2 games right now- and it's my first time doing so. Give me a little time to adjust to that.

Right now, I'd say that inHim and ODDin both look suspicious. If they're scum, they're either staging something (unlikely), or in different factions. But that's beside the point.

Alright, this is silly, and I won't continue this muddying of the waters. I won't drop my vote, though, because such an attack on my vote of ODDin is intriguing given the setup.

This statement is odd/suspicious. Maybe he's hinting at something, but it doesn't seem characteristic of a 6th year MSer.

@ODDin on giving into pressure: care to elaborate?
I would think that anyone would at least respond to pressure. Nobody wants to be lynched, right?
Do you mean giving in as in claiming scum? (I did that in my first game (as scum), but only because I shot myself in the foot one too many times.)

I'll do some other ISOs a bit later. I need to give my other game some attention.

[Mr. Chaos]

Vote: Easjo

Yea, what the hell is up with those last 3 posts, man? "Voices in my head" explanation is total bs since it doesn't explain anything about your latest vote.

And

FoS: Elscouta and Beefster

El: For giving up his vote on Eas based on a post that IMO is completely incomprehensible

Beefster: For trying to prolong RVS/RQS.

[easjo682]

unvote

Yea, what the hell is up with those last 3 posts, man? "Voices in my head" explanation is total bs since it doesn't explain anything about your latest vote.

I was joking around, geeze we're only page three. My vote was RVS, I thought people wold get that when I made a joke about 'voices in my head'.

[Beefster]

How am I prolonging the RVS?

The RQS can extend decently into the rest of day 1. Yeah, I should have asked the questions earlier, but I felt that we weren't being very productive and just running off the fuel from the RVS. So I tried something new. The questions I asked were a little more relevant than other question sets I've seen.

[Chronopie]

1. How long have you been playing Mafia? (inside and outside MS)
2. How would you describe your meta?
3. What's your win/loss record?
4. Favorite setup?
5. What do you think is the biggest scum tell?
6. How do you make your decisions?

1) Since 9th Feb 2010, as per my join Date
2) Slightly Lurkerish, with a dash of anti-town. And a generous Helping of devil's advocate.
3) Atrocious: 2W/3L as Town, 0/1 as scum.
4) The PyP's and Pledge of allegiance (Pick your power, pick your alignment respectively)
5)

Claiming Scum.

(I've seen Frustrated townies do this too ) Contradiction in role claims.
6) Gut/Stream of Consciousness.

[ODDin]

Actually, I've tried playing VI as scum before. It tends to create a lot of useful WIFOM and is especially useful when there are no cops to investigate you (as may be the case in this game), and becomes even more powerful when people like you start defending it. His play should be discouraged, because having a VI on later days of the game is very dangerous.

There are cop-type roles in this game. There might not be, but I wouldn't say it's something to base your strategy on.
But the main thing is, there's no evidence he's a VI (yet). He's been acting silly in the RVS. I've seen lots of people act completely silly in the RVS and then turn serious when the RVS was over.
I completely agree that being a VI should be discouraged, and that VIs are better off lynched early. It's just that joking around in the RVS isn't a VI-tell.


Beefster:
1) You're ignoring current events. What you did was turn the discussion into a completely new avenue - and not a terribly useful one. You see the results in chronopie answering your questions and completely ignoring what was going on before in the game. (I'll get to it yet.)
And no, we weren't running on fuel off the RVS, there was already some pretty serious discussion going on.
This is scummy, because it seems like you were trying to divert attention off the unfolding events. (Which were mostly revolving around me, inhim and sandman. And since I know I'm town, that leaves me with inhim and sandman, so I'm going to keep a closer eye on these two.)

2) Saying "I suspect ODDin and inhim" is hardly useful. Why do you find each of us suspicious? Looks to me like you're just playing safe by throwing some names of people who were already accused by others without actually thinking about it much. This is not scumhunting.

Due to these two,

FoS: beefster

3)

@ODDin on giving into pressure: care to elaborate?
I would think that anyone would at least respond to pressure. Nobody wants to be lynched, right?
Do you mean giving in as in claiming scum? (I did that in my first game (as scum), but only because I shot myself in the foot one too many times.)

What I mean is getting angry and losing your cool when under pressure. Experienced town should be able to keep calm under pressure - they don't need to lie about anything or hide anything, they can just say everything the way it is because they know they're town.
Although I have seen even experienced town completely lose their cool under pressure and flip out. But I still think it's a very strong tell.

4) You ignored what I said about looking for connections to find scum.


chronopie: Care to comment about other things? There are people being accused, votes and FoSs thrown around, but you do nothing but answer beef's questions and disappear.

This is why I still like my vote where it is.

[Beefster]

@ODDin:
About connections: it didn't seem relevant to comment on that. I see what you're saying.

To be honest, I'm kinda detached from this game. I'm putting too much focus on my other game. I'll fix that.
Anyway, here's some analysis:

ODDin:
casts the first real vote. Good.
You've been fairly pro-town this whole time.
What was I thinking?

Unvote

Easjo:
Voices in your head? Pfft! I hardly think that's valid just outside the RVS.
Self-contradiction. The need to lie is a scum trait, and you suck at lying.

FoS: easjo

inHim:
Isn't

anything

better than a random vote? Reasons start off few and far between, but then gradually build up and make mistakes. But really? Chewing him out over

word choice

? Your words and actions here don't seem characteristic of a 6th year townie.
He then defends himself in his stupidity. Is he playing village idiot or something?
He says he doesn't want to muddy the waters. What exactly does he mean by this?

Vote: inHim

Chronopie:
If his meta tends to be anti-town and he's being lurky, he's definitely a player to keep an eye on.

IGMEOY

[XScorpion]

As far as I'm concerned, RVS ended on page 2.
I find RQS is only useful when scum are sloppy, i.e. a scum says something later in the game that contradicts one of their RQS answers.

@Easjo: There is nothing more annoying than asking someone a question, hoping for a serious answer, then getting a joke response. "Voices in your head" do not help town. Can you give real answers to

What do you think about Oddin's vote?

and

eas: why do you "feel the need to change your vote"? Also, what's the idea of switching from one random vote to another random vote?

[Scott Brosius]

1. How long have you been playing Mafia? (inside and outside MS)
2. How would you describe your meta?
3. What's your win/loss record?
4. Favorite setup?
5. What do you think is the biggest scum tell?
6. How do you make your decisions?

1. Register date plus a few months elsewhere before that.

2. I have concise posts.

3. See sig

4. I always enjoy 2 scum group setups.

5. I haven't been scum in over a year so I don't really know. I was scum in my first game (2 scum group game) and when we found scum on the other team D1, he claimed scum and me as his partner. Although I wasn't his partner, I was scum so I had to dig myself out of that hole. Basically I feel like I have never played an untainted scum role.

6. Gut usually.