Open 218: Two-fold C9 - Game Over

[Mr.Sandman]

Yeah haha when I looked through on that last night, seeing scorpion bussing easjo did make me wonder

Just as it worked out, I didn't manage to post since before the doctor claim :-/ Worked to my advantage though

I would like to hear from dr why he claimed doctor...

[XScorpion]

Figures...Mafia angel. Things weren't in our favour at all.

[ODDin]

In the end it didn't really matter anyway.

[XScorpion]

Quicktopic:
http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/8d4druAHt6WE

When Chrono flipped town...yeah. I echo Scott's sentiments exactly.

[ODDin]

Read your quicktopic... really scary how many times you mentioned the option of killing me/sandman, though you always mentioned it as though we're town.

Hindu was perfectly right, we did kill inhim because he suspected us - hindu just missed the fact he nailed us as the scumteam.

[Hinduragi]

Yeah, Scott was right on about the town situation. Still, this game was pretty fun and it gave me some much needed scum experience. I also lol'd when Scott flipped PR after I had suggested it. I just wish he hadn't died. He was the one person I knew was 100% townie. Even if the other townies and scum didn't. I had him as one of the most solid gut reads I've had.

[Equinox]

XScorpion, a

werewolf

, was killed.

YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT?

Wow.

My reads were totally off. FML.

That said, very well played, mafia. Same to the werewolves for throwing me off on Day 2, as well, though the events after that were rather unfortunate.

All I can say is, lurk less and lie less. That shot town in the foot. I was cussing at the screen when drmyshottyizsik flipped townie. I was headdesking when Chronopie flipped townie. Argh.

Good game. Hope to see you lot again.

Korejora, great modding as usual. <3

[Chronopie]

Yeah...

In a two-team, power-heavy (or so I thought) game, getting a VT pm just kinda... meh.

this game has re-enforced my dislike of VT-ism.

[Scott Brosius]

Why play then? Do you always just give up and provide nothing when you are VT? Obviously it's more entertaining to have night decisions but that's not fair to everyone else in the game.

It's one thing to be new to the game and obviously act scummy because you don't know any better. This doesn't seem to be true in your case.

[XScorpion]

I prefer being vanilla townie to scum. Imagine how this game might have gone differently if Chrono and I switched spots.

[Chronopie]

Why play then? Do you always just give up and provide nothing when you are VT? Obviously it's more entertaining to have night decisions but that's not fair to everyone else in the game.

It's one thing to be new to the game and obviously act scummy because you don't know any better. This doesn't seem to be true in your case.

It's more that I expected to see a fair bit of Night interaction, instead we had a

Mafia

Angel, and a Town Tracker dead N2.

So it became pure mountainous (from a town point of view), and scum-hunting (Without scum flips) is really, really not my forte. I like to see NAs + Scum flips, then draw conclusions based on said interactions between players and roles...

(I'd never willingly play a pure mountainous game)

I play the same way every (and I mean every) game. My enthusiasm may wax or wane, based on role, but not my play.

--

If we'd switched spots, I probably wouldn't have (basically) flaked half way through.

[XScorpion]

I still think one scumteam getting a PR and not the other is unbalancing.
Basically, mafia won because they had the angel. If the werewolves had a doctor instead, we probably would have won, since Hind would have survived.

[Scott Brosius]

Why play then? Do you always just give up and provide nothing when you are VT? Obviously it's more entertaining to have night decisions but that's not fair to everyone else in the game.

It's one thing to be new to the game and obviously act scummy because you don't know any better. This doesn't seem to be true in your case.

It's more that I expected to see a fair bit of Night interaction, instead we had a

Mafia

Angel, and a Town Tracker dead N2.

So it became pure mountainous (from a town point of view), and scum-hunting (Without scum flips) is really, really not my forte. I like to see NAs + Scum flips, then draw conclusions based on said interactions between players and roles...

(I'd never willingly play a pure mountainous game)

I play the same way every (and I mean every) game. My enthusiasm may wax or wane, based on role, but not my play.

--

If we'd switched spots, I probably wouldn't have (basically) flaked half way through.

Fair enough. This setup was kinda lame.

I like 2 scum group setups, but the PRs should be limited to town. At least not a doctor/angel/protecting role. Otherwise you always have an NK-immune player. Actually looking at the PM, it's not clear. If Oddin died, could Sandman save himself? It does not specifically restrict this.

[Korejora]

(f) You may not do anything to yourself - kill, investigate, protect, track, whatever - except redirect someone else's action onto yourself, unless your role says you can.

[Hinduragi]

I don't see why you don't like VT. I take it as more of a challenge because I've got no info and I enjoy it more. Being scum never was my thing but I do my best to play to my win condition regardless of my role.

All I can say is, lurk less and lie less. That shot town in the foot. I was cussing at the screen when drmyshottyizsik flipped townie.

I lol'd when he flipped town. I'm thinking he just wanted to live when he claimed. That really backfired on him. Especially when he said he protected me since easjo hadn't made any connections to Chaos at all before that.

[ODDin]

Scorp - I really don't think we won because we had an angel. The only time I was actually NKed was the last night, when it didn't matter anyway.
Sure, it affected our play, but mostly during the late game: during D3 I was kinda suggesting I was the angel to draw a wolf kill onto myself (which didn't work, but a chrono kill was great too) and on D4 I joined scorp in the no lynch vote thinking that it was probably a trap to lure mafia and in this scenario I wanted to be lured. But the most important thing was that scorp revealed himself as a wolf. Even if you killed one of us successfully N4, we'd still win - 1 mafia 1 townie 0 wolves is a mafia victory.

[XScorpion]

Suppose you have no angel and we had a doctor.
You nightkill Hind and miss. We kill chrono. Next day you have to guess between Equinox and me, and you said yourself that you thought I was town. I basically gave up on day4 when Chrono flipped town, because I knew the best I could hope for was a draw.

[ODDin]

1) And what if hindu WAS the doctor?
2) When I said it didn't matter we had an angel, I meant that if the roles were exactly like they were except there wouldn't be any anti-wolf role at all, things would've gone in pretty much the same way. The angel's guards didn't change anything in the game - you never missed a kill because of them. (Except for the last one, but that's a technicality.)

Although in theory, I agree that the setup is somewhat unbalanced. It can lean pretty heavily towards one scum group. Limiting PRs to the town seems like a good idea. I also think the PRs should be balanced - either no PRs, or 1 anti-wolf AND 1 anti-mafia, or 2 anti-wolf AND 2 anti-mafia.

[Korejora]

I agree that scum protection coming into play could have unbalanced the game. The mob gained a legitimate advantage (which won them the game) by hitting a wolf while the wolves hit a townie. Had there been a doctor that kept both wolves alive, the mob would have likely drawn or lost, despite having made the better choice in the third night.

Looking at the setup discussion, the possibility of scum roles was added to counteract the possibility of there being more power counteracting one scum group than the other. Unfortunately, possibilities don't come into play as much once the setup has been determined.

[ODDin]

I think making it that the only options are equal number of anti-wolf and anti-mafia roles (all for town only) it will solve this issue better.

[Chronopie]

Perhaps a limitation on which roles can go to scum

or

town, and which are town only? i.e Tracker roles vs Doc roles? bc Scum doc in a 2-man team is a little imba, even if it didn't come into play much.

[Max]

I'm working on re-drafting the game with this one played.

The reason for imbalanced roles was in order to try and allow fake claiming. I think removing the doc from the mafia/werewolves grasps would be an all round bad idea as a doctor is always town then.

The solution to that (I believe) is for the doctor to be replaced by a jailkeeper. The mafia then must choose between protecting their partner with no kill and killing with no protection. That would probably keep the two sides balanced.

I defend the choice of possibly imbalanced roles. It's good for the game, ensures that there is almost never certainty about the remaining set-up (unless 4 power roles are killed). To me, that's a good trait about the game, like with C9++ there were lots of possibilities.

So I have a few questions:
Which roles (not of the three here, just a general question) should scum not have in two player scum-groups?
Would an interdependence of scum power and anti-scum power be appropriate (eg if two anti-scum powers exist then the scum receive one power to defend themselves)?
Would changing the number of town players make it more balanced?

[Chronopie]

Scum two man groups should never have a doc. a JK would solve the problem, although requiring the restriction of either JK or Kill, not both ofc.

other than that I can't think of any horribly imbalanced roles for a 2-man team.

[Scott Brosius]

Agree that scum should not have an every night doctor (x-shot doctor would be a little better but still not great). I like the JK idea over doctor.

Maybe one difference would be after determining what PRs are in the game, instead of random assignment to town/scum, maybe skew it that the roles are 2/3 chance of being town 1/6 wolf 1/6 mafia.

The setup was not the reason we lost the game, we had lurky useless town and got really unlucky with no night cross-kills.

[Hoopla]

Sorting bump.