Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[MrBuddyLee]

Vote: MBL

Welcome back

Thanks! I like what you guys have done with the place.

Can I please get the mile-high rundown on this lot please:
4) Shanba
9) Lord Gurgi
10) Untrod Tripod
11) Ythill
14) Ectomancer

Also, hello to DGB, MBF, Ether and all the other cool kids on the sidelines. If there's anything inappropriate you'd like done to a player, send a PM and I'll do my best to accomodate.

[MrBuddyLee]

@MBL:

What would you like to know?

Just looking for your degree of familiarity with and/or playstyle info on the five folks I don't really know.

MBL has played with me, but doesn't recall. It's been awhile, I cant remember which games myself. Were you in the 3 Clue's?

Yeah.. for whatever reason, those games didn't stay with me. Unlike the Wheel of Time game, which taught me that if you ever have trouble picking an xmas present for PJ, just put a traitor in his stocking.

[MrBuddyLee]

Just read the thread a couple of times and will place a vote in the morning. Sorry to be inactive a few days, Patrick. It's good to see the game is off and running with some substance. My first few thoughts were that Ecto and Huck have caught my eye and that Yos is probably not scum with Gurgi.

Ythill attacked chamber for voting a lurker and ignored the post immediately preceding his where Huck tried to coerce votes on a lurker. Then Huck voted Ythill for defending lurkers, and unvoted the person he was accusing of lurking to vote the person defending lurkers. Possible nexus of activity.

[MrBuddyLee]

Gurgi and stark are town. CTD is possible town with a good switch to Tripod, plus, odds-wise, scum are probably less likely to get wagoned to L-3 this early.

Ythill looked bad there for a bit (kind of manufactured a reason for thinking chamber was scum, then abandoned it awkwardly) but is looking better as of late. The Ecto attack felt ok. Following Ythill's mysterious third hand, I don't agree with his assessment/protection of Tripod. I'm not a fan of Ecto's vote on stark, but admittedly the game was still early and still in pseudo-random stage. stark's vote looked random, chamber's OMGUS looked like a joke vote, and ecto's decision to pick a side sounds manufactured. Interestingly, he took the opposite side ythill just had, and not they're "at each other". Ecto's "pick two, lynch one of them" also sounds a bit flip, random and weird, considering there was no significant reason to pick stark or chamber at the time. Later, Ecto said he wanted to "arrange a chamber lynch". Did you mean wagon? Cause it was kind of early at the time to be arranging lock and load lynches.

Mert not feeling the CTD wagon, but it was a little early to be not feeling it. After two early votehops (ces, glork) draws attention to Ythill's possible protection of lurkerscumpartner but doesnt switch his vote to Ythill. Moderately scummy. His vote on Tripod is a bit better, if wagony. Eye on Mert.

Shanba looked sketchy for a bit by agreeing with mert about ythill but not backing it up with a vote switch to ythill. chamber did the same thing, asking ces for "permission" to switch to ythill but not switching. Later, shanba agreed with Mert's post, but not with the CTD part. So he agreed with the Ythill part. But he, too, didn't switch his vote to Ythill. Eye on Shanba. "game developing nice texture" comment sounded townish but meh, he could be a clever faker.

Tripod, is English your first language? I made a note to ask you about your vote choice, then you said it was a joke, but it didn't feel like a joke. If it wasn't a joke, then I'm curious to know why you narrowed to {chamber, CTD} when you had Glork(4), stark(2), MBL(2), Gurgi(2) wagons to choose from.

Huck felt a little weird on and off my wagon, then seemed to get on the Ythill wagon for the weaker of two possible reasons. Ythill's vote switch was odd, but Huck voted Ythill for the lurker argument. Eye on Huck.

I disagree with inHim on CTD's vote switch. His pushing on Mert is fine with me.

Flameaxe looks ok with the specifics of his attack on Tripod.

(stark is one of the players not known to me and so makes a good one for me, save the "known" quantities for endgame).

What made you think at the time that you'll be around for endgame?

Vote: Ectomancer

[MrBuddyLee]

Ecto

, question to you:

unvote

I'm torn between voting for chamber and CTD....hm...

vote CTD

*hops*

Unvote, vote: CTD

Blarg, with me!

UNVOTE. VOTE:CTD

Yes. This... this feels right.

unvote vote ctd

L-4

Not really feeling the CTD wagon if I'm honest.

I endorse Mert's post. Except the bit about the CTD wagon.

I am uninterested in the CTD wagon.

Untrod Tripod earns my vote for feigned deliberation when it's clear he's just wagoning shamelessly.

Hey ces, can we vote ythill or yos instead of ctd?

I wouldn't be opposed to an ythillvote, but I'd prefer keeping it on CTD for now.

poor CES scumpoints followed up by a poor Tripod vote.

unvote
vote: CrashTextDummie

How is my shameless bandwagonning different from anyone else's? My "deliberation" was, surprise surprise, just a joke. Fr rls, yo. Your vote is ridiculous (moreso than mine!). the inconsistency in you calling me on it and not calling others on it is the real concern here.

Unvote Vote Untrod Tripod

CTD's attack against UT is pressure-fueled failsauce.

Unvote, Vote: Untrod Tripod

Ecto-Ythill argument is boring.

Unvote, vote: Untrod Tripod

Hey Fritzler, is this going to be like that one game where you lazily parked your vote on me and proceeded to do jack shit in the productive department all game long?

Improbable at best.

Unvote, Vote: Untrod Tripod

given UT's most recent posts. The bouncing back and forth between "that was shameless bandwagoning... no, no, it was a joke... sarcasm, geez" is pressure-worthy.

If CTD is indeed scum, I'm saying his wagon fell apart due to his teammates successfully stirring up suspicion elsewhere.

Ecto

, through all of this, you managed to unvote stark and not revote. I thought you were all about finding two and lynching one? If the "two" is not chamber-stark, then why haven't you found another two to replace them with? CTD-Tripod? inHim-CTD? inHim-Tripod? It seems that while everyone else is busy taking sides (which is good for town, according to you) you are fence-sitting and making posts like:

Trying to phrase my responses so they aren't quite as biting, but perhaps you might want to look at yourself as having the problem, not me. Are you serious? You don't play with the endgame in mind? No wonder so many games end up with a VI in the endgame making the decisions. What exactly are you doing with your time before you come around to the task of working towards winning?
Secondly, narrowed data set. It's like passing your suspects through a checkpoint rather than letting them just mill about at random, doing things at random, and expecting to somehow deduce motivation from it. Place them instead where choices are limited and effects of actions defined.

If you cant understand or agree with that, fine. But you are manufacturing yourself if you are trying to say there was sinister motivation in doing it,

and then telling you I did it.

Before I forget, Fritzler is likely town, and Gurgi is half a point towards being scum for his sideways attack at Fritzler. Hate to fill quotes, but it was one of those, "Hey I was doing that too, why didn't you attack me?" things that I think is slightly more likely to make you scum.

without voting.

[MrBuddyLee]

And me too. You guys have rekindled my interest in chamber.

I'd like to hear your fuller opinion of chamber, independent of Yos's and stark's opinions.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ecto

,

lazy and stupid

was a wee bit harsh, but otherwise stark's post was spot-on. How are we supposed to ascertain your alignment right now? You look more like scum than anyone in this game at the moment, and you're being intentionally obtuse in a futile attempt to make your pursuers look bad. It's not going to work, and you're going to rack up justified votes.

If you're town, intentionally giving everyone valid reasons to vote you doesn't help the town. If you're scum, you're boring.

IH

, what kind of phone do you have? Because you suck at posting from it. If it's like an enV, this makes perfect sense, but if you have an iPhone or Droid, everyone should switch their votes to your lurky ass.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hrm... it's hard to tell whether Ecto's reaction is faked or not. Normally, a reaction to scum-or-stupid solidifies or disproves my read. This game is not going to be easy.

Meh. I've been parked for too long anyway.

UNVOTE: Ectomancer
VOTE: Mert

At first glance, I

really

don't like this vote change. Please explain your thoughts.

[MrBuddyLee]

I like MBL's questioning of Ecto.

@Glork

- Thoughts on Ecto?

Dirty scumbaggo, possibly with MBL.

You actually thought this:

Ecto

,

lazy and stupid

was a wee bit harsh, but otherwise stark's post was spot-on. How are we supposed to ascertain your alignment right now? You look more like scum than anyone in this game at the moment, and you're being intentionally obtuse in a futile attempt to make your pursuers look bad. It's not going to work, and you're going to rack up justified votes.

If you're town, intentionally giving everyone valid reasons to vote you doesn't help the town. If you're scum, you're boring.

IH

, what kind of phone do you have? Because you suck at posting from it. If it's like an enV, this makes perfect sense, but if you have an iPhone or Droid, everyone should switch their votes to your lurky ass.

and my earlier questioning of him was scum trying to kick a lazy partner into gear?

FOS: Glork

[MrBuddyLee]

I did like your earlier questioning of Ecto, but that sentence really reads like you're trying to prod him into shaping up before he actually becomes lynch fodder and it makes me doubt your sincerity.

If I am mistaken, feel very free to explain what you intended to accomplish by posting that sentence.

If Ecto's town, I want some reads from him, stat. He made a big fuss earlier in the game about

Ahh, defining lines. This I can get behind.

You look like a drifter. All drifters aren't axe murderers, but most aren't up to anything good either.

Focusing the town into a single issue involving 2 players, rather than allowing scum to scatter and obfuscate their opinions across multiple vectors is pro-town. That focus turns the volume down on the white noise where people can hide, especially in a large game like this one.

and now he's the living definition of what he denounced. He seemed thrilled with a choice of stark vs. chamber, but since the game actually got rolling,

he has yet to type the names CTD, inHim or Tripod

and he's sketchy on Mert. I smell a rat and I want his reads on those players. If Ecto's scum, one of those players is scum--otherwise he'd have jumped all over the latest wagons like he jumped on stark vs. chamber, who seem likely to be town if Ecto is scum.

Regardless of whether he's scum or town, we'll benefit from hearing his opinions on the major wagons of the day, and we may gain insight on why that information has to be dragged out of him.

Ecto

, your Fritzler/Gurgi example from earlier necessarily predicates that Mert is scum. Yet you don't FOS Mert like you do Gurgi. Why? What's your opinion of Mert thus far?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ythill

,

Your current vote on chamber is largely OMGUS and your previous suspicion of HH was largely OMGUS, before you decided HH wasn't scum because chamber was. (You abandoned your "paranoia" anti-town read on Huck awfully easily.)

You voted Mert and didn't really ask him anything--just told everyone that vote movement was good for the town. You've made consistently snide remarks in passing re: Mert but put zero weight behind them. Why is chamber's opinion of Mert more important than chamber's opinion of Ectomancer? You made a definite point of that, for some bizarre reason.

Ecto is on your suspect list, and his top two suspects are two of your town reads (Yos and MBL), one of your top suspects (Huck) is defending him, and yet you're trying to "determine" Ecto's alignment based on the tone of his righteous outrage instead of on his votes and suspicions or lack thereof? Two of your four tone-reads of Ecto told you he's a faker, and yet you switched your vote off him despite him not giving you what you asked for three times? (His suspicions.) In past games, how have you managed to catch scum? This is not how you do it, and it makes me wonder what you're up to.

Your main reason (is it the main reason or just one of them?) for voting chamber is that he wouldn't accept an "unwinnable" bet against you? (His "perfect knowledge" comment is spot-on when faced with such an offer.) If you want vote-movement (and I assume you mean "to chamber") shouldn't you give better reasons? Yours is weaker than Yos's, which involves possible contradictions in chamber's stated beliefs vs apparent beliefs. Can you please give us your full opinion of chamber's play and why you think we should move our votes to him?

Also, Flameaxe (BBM?) has been on your scumlist for ages and yet you've not asked him a thing or commented on a single one of his posts. Just an offhand remark about his posturing/following/buddying in the first day or two? Can you elaborate? Why the consistent read over ten days but no attacks or followups from you?

Also, you left stark off your read-list, and have never commented or implied your opinion of his alignment.

Your play is downright weird, and doesn't feel tied to a deep-down desire to hold scum feet to the fire and ferret out distinctions based on responses and actions. All that being said, you do seem to be making a lot of observations and contributing significantly more than Ectomancer. You just don't seem to care much about the end result.

[MrBuddyLee]

Who do you think should be lynched today?

If I had the dayvig I'd pop Ecto right now. I'm not confident in his alignment, though--he hasn't given us much to work with--off the top of my head I can recall he thinks Yos and I are scum, Gurgi is halfscum possibly protecting Mert, and Fritz is town. That's about it. Apparently his blockheadedness isn't indicative of alignment--in the scum and town games I peeked at, he made a point of saying he wouldn't be swayed or influenced to do anything by anyone. If he refuses to give more reads or better quality ones, he's gotta go regardless.

[MrBuddyLee]

InHim and Huck, what leads you to believe Ecto is town?

[MrBuddyLee]

When are we going to be judging the "quality" of one's reads? Certainly isn't Day 1.

Specifically to this point, Ecto's #1 suspect is me OMGUS. I have obvious reasons for not respecting that "read". His #2 suspect is Yos, a suspicion that materialized the moment Yos called him out for the same thing I did. OMGUS #2.

So yes, I feel qualified right now, mid-day-one, to say Ecto's "reads" this game suck. They're pure OMGUS and I have no idea how anyone can possibly be getting a genuine town read off him right now. Please enlighten me.

[MrBuddyLee]

I would be down with lynching MBL, possibly Yos2 (cmon, you know when you are keeping the ball rolling)
I would listen to you on Flameaxe or Mert or CES or chamber or CTD
These people are likely town and it would be difficult to sway me (in no particular order): inhimshallibe, Glork, Fritzler, Shanba, Hackerhuck
I put a bee in stark's bonnet. That's my fault. He could react better, but I wouldn't lynch him, though I dont know if he's town. I don't think I would lynch Ythill either. Gurgi isn't a good lynch either. I think IH might be playing, Im not certain.

Can you please give reasons for your suspicions of Yos, Flameaxe, Mert, CES, CTD?

[MrBuddyLee]

Before I forget, Fritzler is likely town, and Gurgi is half a point towards being scum for his sideways attack at Fritzler. Hate to fill quotes, but it was one of those, "Hey I was doing that too, why didn't you attack me?" things that I think is slightly more likely to make you scum.

Ecto: I think it's perfectly valid to ask why a tell ought not to apply to me. It's what I'd do if I were not one of the related people, so I don't think it's bad play.

That's why it was only half a point. It was not a full scum scene, townie elements existed too.

Ok, so we are all experienced. I can shorthand some of this.

So what we could have with Fritz and Mert is a couple situations, right?

Mert's "I'm not feeling it" could be a tell that Fritz believes in, right? I can see Fritz's point too "if Im honest". However, Fritz could also be using it as an opportunity to ping Mert to see how he reacts. Either way, Fritz just fires a shot across the bow. We also know this could be scum Fritz being a passive aggressive.

My gut didnt feel Fritzscum as it reflected more to me as honest gutscum or "tell" hunting.

So,

assuming Fritztown, its my feeling that a scum buddy (or perhaps just scum) will not want to allow a player to make a flat statement like "This guy is probably scum" without forcing them to elaborate on it somehow

, if only to flush out possible power roles.
Well, I went looking for it. And so I found it:

Fritz does not come of so well for responding to a break from the random by trying to return to the random. Probably just Fritz being Fritz though. I'll attribute his Mert criticisms to the same for now, even though he criticised Mert and not me for having the same thoughts.

Now comment on this one. It was in the middle of several other short statements to or about other players, so it was easily missed if you were skimming, if you even thought to look for it at all. This is an oblique way of picking at that "This guy is probably scum" statement by Fritz. He describes it as "random" when you can see from my description above that I thought that it was anything but random.

He then does a bit of rescue of Mert by saying that he (Gurgi) was guilty of the same thing

, and thus, etc, etc.

Now for my assessment at that time. While this could match the situation that I was looking for (ie, Gurgi is scum, and possibly Mert could be his buddy), it could also very well be that Gurgi did indeed find Fritz act to be random.

So while this is what I went looking for, I decided that this didnt warrant a red flag scum alert. I thought that it did warrant a twitter though, and so:

Before I forget, Fritzler is likely town, and Gurgi is half a point towards being scum for his sideways attack at Fritzler. Hate to fill quotes, but it was one of those, "Hey I was doing that too, why didn't you attack me?" things that I think is slightly more likely to make you scum.

Which is my shorthand for "Did some work (see above if you arent actually following me and are asking yourself what work), result it Fritz +1 town, Gurgi -1/2 scum."

Gurgi responded, and I explained why he only got 1/2 a point, so, that's that.

Ecto, are you suggesting that Gurgi would do this as scum, standing up for townie Mert? I didn't get that at all from what you wrote. I got that either Gurgi's statement implied that he was partners with Mert, or Gurgi made it as an innocent town observation. The former necessarily implies Mert and Gurgi are scumpartners, the latter says nothing about Mert. So it was indeed odd that you gave a half scumpoint to Gurgi and not to Mert--based on your scenario, Mert is even MORE likely to be scum than Gurgi, because is always scum when Gurgi is and he's SOMETIMES scum when Gurgi's town. A minor point, and one of about ten observations that bothered me about you. If you're trying to say that Gurgi could have been scum sucking up to town Mert, that's fine, but you didn't state that in your post. Your post drew the loose association.

It's an ok observation that Gurgi possibly defended Mert--connection is drawn for the future. Your observation that I'm voteworthy for pointing out your failure to FoS Mert is not a particularly solid observation--if you are town, I suppose I can see it as a stretch, but it feels more like you were frustrated with my consistent attack:

(Actually, he (MBL) is only using it as a further method of undercutting Ectomancer) Now this sir, is a scum read. This may yet garner a vote. It is fairly high severity for poor gamesmanship.

I believe I made ten separate observations about your play, and you chose to pick at:

Ecto

, your Fritzler/Gurgi example from earlier necessarily predicates that Mert is scum. Yet you don't FOS Mert like you do Gurgi. Why? What's your opinion of Mert thus far?

It should have said "necessarily predicates that Mert is scum if Gurgi is", but other than that, I believe my statement was essentially correct.

I'm going to split off the next comments because this post is boring and bulky and doesn't address the most important aspect of this situation, imo. tl;dr: I wanted to know why Ecto involved Mert in a scum-defense scenario but didn't FOS him.

[MrBuddyLee]

I have reason to believe some of you town. (dont really do those lists) Gurgi has a better chance of being scum as a result of a situational read.

Were I presented with a deadline, there would be no doubt that MBL would be my best choice, with Gurgi a rather distant second.

Scum - MBL, Yos2, with Gurgi a distant 3rd. I'm certain that either MBL or Yosarian2 are scum.

Gurgi isn't a good lynch either.

I would listen to you on Flameaxe or Mert

1) Why did Gurgi become a bad lynch when he was your top suspect a few days earlier? Is it this?

This is exactly the response I would expect from Ecto as town. He gets angry.

Or was it more his suspicions post? Considering you moved him off your "good lynch" list, I'd like details regarding why specifically.
2) Why is Mert on your lynch list? Obviously if Gurgi's off the list, then that one piece of evidence you've posted about Mert is no longer valid, since it requires Gurgi to be scum. You never asked Mert a thing nor really mentioned him. You never seemed to follow up on your Gurgi-Mert hypothesis.
3) What do you think of Glork's insinuations that you and I are scumpartners? Do you think it's a realistic/reasonable assessment from his "townie perspective"? If not, why is he making that accusation?

[MrBuddyLee]

Actually, the timeline goes:

Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:57 am Gurgi makes his suspicions post, mentioning seven players
Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:00 pm you say Gurgi is a distant third for a lynch behind Yos and MBL
Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:47 pm Gurgi says you're probably town and nothing else new
Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:04 am You say Gurgi isn't a good lynch and move him to about 8th on your list

* If you're town, this is terrible play
* If you're scum, this makes sense from the perspective of keeping a defender of yours around
* I don't really think you'd react like this if he was your scumpartner

[MrBuddyLee]

chamber and IH

, what are your reads on Ectomancer?

stark

, what's your current thinking? There are a lot of people saying his response to the questioning thus far is frustrated-townish. If I had to summarize my case on him at the moment, I'd say:

* His play has felt like posturing--pregame focus on how to catch scum, minimal followthrough with votes or suspicions until pressed.
* His two main "suspects" are OMGUSsish, with weak reasons tacked on.
* He's not following through significantly on his "suspicions". Made a scum observation about Gurgi and abandoned it too easily. No follow-up on Mert.
* Yos has made arguments about Ythill, Huck, chamber, inHim. Yet Ecto's case on Yos focuses solely upon Yos's approach towards Ecto.
* Ditto for Ecto on MBL. He hasn't touched on my remarks about any other player that I can see.
* "I'm certain that either MBL or Yosarian2 are scum." -- really only possible if he and Yos are scum together, or if he got the read of the century off Yos.

Here are the posts that made Ecto certain that Yos is scum:

On an unrelated note, Ecto is acting really shifty for no apparent reason. His whole "I don't have scum reads, I have situations where I think a person is more likely to be scum then town..." is really silly; that's pretty much the textbook definition of what a scum read IS. Anyway, I'd like to hear what his reads are; he made some vague comments earlier, but I'd like to see a little more specificity.

Chamber needs to go, though. He's scum. (For the benefits of ecto, that's the same as saying "he's got a higher probability of being scum based on his actions and the situation then other people do." )

I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish with all this theorycrafting, Ecto. I don't really care if you have "firsthand and immediate" reads, or "situational reads from a 10k foot level", or whatever, I just want to here some more comments about what you think about players in the game.

Let me list the actual specific comments you've made on players:

-You said Ythill was "a drifter" for changing his vote a lot, and implied that that could be a scum tell.
-Had...some kind of thing where you were trying to "divide the town into a pro-chamber and anti-chamber camp" to get reads on people, or something like that.
-Said you thought Fritzler was pro-town, and that Gurgi's sideways attack on Fritzler was therefore mildly scummy. (You used slightly different words to say that)
-You later, I think, implied that if Gurgi is scum, mert is a likely partner, although you hedged this with so many weasel words I'm not even 100% if that's what you meant.

That's all reasonable day 1 scumhunting. (Well, the "chamber" thing is a little iffy). The problem is, there just wasn't much of it, and I don't get what the point of the rest of your posts are; you seem to have a poor signal/noise ratio. And the small amount of scumhunting you did, you didn't really follow up on it; if the only thing you have at the moment is a slight read on gurgi, I don't get why you're not voting him, why you're not questioning him, ect.

I have no idea why Yos rocketed to the top of Ecto's list for those posts, let alone becoming a near-certainty for scum.

conclusion: things don't add up about Ecto.

And I'm tired of talking about him.

[MrBuddyLee]

@MBL:

I'm not going to answer all those questions. Could you, pretty please, quote the 3-4 you feel are most important?

Sure.
Please reconcile these two posts of yours which were made two hours apart:

Yos

had some convincing evidence I'd overlooked because I had taken the statement as

chamber

fishing for reactions, primarily from CES.

Anyone up for an impromptu wagon on Yos?
UNVOTE: chamber
VOTE: Yosarian2

and this one from a week earlier:

Town == Yos, Shanba, Gurgi, UT, inHim, MBL

Did you really cite Yos's word as your reason for voting chamber, and then promptly switch your vote from chamber to Yos?

Why would you expect anyone to "vote movement is protown!" to Yos if you don't even believe he's scum yourself? Or do you have a case you'd like to present? Were you dropped on the head as a child?

Also:
What's your current stance on Mert, Flameaxe, Huck, chamber and Ecto?

Also:
Is your current maniacal votehopping designed to obfuscate any possible benefit from analyzing your voting patterns when you're lynched as scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL dies tomorrow.

It's been a week since you've said anything that could be remotely construed as conducive to catching scum. IH has the excuse of "broken computer"/"playing LoL". What's yours?

[MrBuddyLee]

I have a new girlfriend.

Congratulations.

I am a WoW addict.

My condolences. I'll see you at midnight next Tuesday.

[MrBuddyLee]

This is why no one likes MBL (in terms of Pro-town-ness or as a potential friend).

Were you dropped on the head as a child?

What makes you think I'd remember if I had been?

[MrBuddyLee]

Hi!

[MrBuddyLee]

Mert, Glork, CES, Yos, DGB, why specifically are you voting Ecto?

I just reviewed people's stated reasons for being on the wagon and they're terrible or mealymouthed or nonexistent.

Stark, is the guy scum or are we just removing him from the game for intransigence? Or likely both?

Fritz and CES, is the guy scum?

I'm back east for 48 hrs and just taught a 68 year old to play gran turismo 5. I'd like to see everyone's lists of the four scum, and I'll try to post mine this weekend.

Tempted to unvote. Yos, is ecto scum? Your heart doesn't sound like it believes it in your last post where you voted him.

[MrBuddyLee]

REALLY SKETCHY:

Ectomancer > post #207 sounds like a strategic lurking warning. But then I liked #247. But then I liked MBL's case in #256. And yet #298 is full of excuses. Not seeing a whole lot of scumhunting.

This is the entire case you've posted on Ecto. It sounds more like you believe he's crappy town, or want to blame me if/when he comes up town. What's your exact stance on Ecto?

[MrBuddyLee]

Can we have a deadline extension please, Patrick? People are not sold on the top two votegetters as scum, and there are a few players who we haven't had fair opportunity to read yet.

Things are just getting interesting. Let's give the N1 nightkill another week or two to catch scum.

Glork, can you please clarify your thinking on Ecto and myself? Your behavior in this game is unusual.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm posting from a phone.. multiple cut n pastes suck.

Hey, Channel, go vote Ectomancer. Both Glrok and I have determined that he's scum.

CES, didn't I also help determine he is scum? And by determine, I mean vote for him because he is scum.

Are DGB, Fritz, and I really the only ones who smell a rat here?

Glork, what made you think Fritz "smelled a rat" at the time of your post here? From reading the thread alone, it looks like he was firmly on Ecto as scum at the time.

[MrBuddyLee]

I owe an updated read on Ecto. The last time I addressed him, he had just posted a list of reads:

I would be down with lynching MBL, possibly Yos2 (cmon, you know when you are keeping the ball rolling)
I would listen to you on Flameaxe or Mert or CES or chamber or CTD
These people are likely town and it would be difficult to sway me (in no particular order): inhimshallibe, Glork, Fritzler, Shanba, Hackerhuck
I put a bee in stark's bonnet. That's my fault. He could react better, but I wouldn't lynch him, though I dont know if he's town. I don't think I would lynch Ythill either. Gurgi isn't a good lynch either. I think IH might be playing, Im not certain.

He also said he thought UT (CDB) was town who he could work together with.

I asked for his reasons on the "listen to you" people and he later clarified that they were null reads, not suspicions.

His reads were ok at the time but thin on reasoning behind them. Two scum reads (Yos and MBL) with a significant OMGUS element to both. MBL had willfully misinterpreted Ecto's Gurgi-Mert-Fritzler read or some such. Yos wasn't listening to him, and was attacking mindlessly.

Three of the "likely town" people (inHim, Shanba, Huck) are the three people who said Ecto was sounding like town. Gurgi also went from #3 to #8 on Ecto's list based on a Gurgi "Ecto sounds town" post alone.

One of Ecto's "likely town" reads was voting him (Glork) accusing him of being scumpartners with me. Glork had recently taken Ecto's side in a MBL-Ecto exchange. Ecto's last town read was Fritzler, who was voting Untrod Tripod at the time. I'm curious to know how Ecto gets "These people are likely town and it would be difficult to sway me" off of Fritzler when Fritzler is voting one of Ecto's town reads. The only thing I can guess is that he saw Fritzler asking Glork for an Untrod Tripod vote and getting it. Or it could be carryover from much earlier when Fritzler called out Mert as scum for not feeling the CTD wagon.

Regardless, Ecto's reads at that time were pretty self-centered. "This guy is attacking me, he's scum." "This guy is agreeing with me or defending me, he's town." That's a generalization on my part, but it holds across at least seven players. (Huck, Shanba, inHim, Yos, MBL, Gurgi, Mert). Confirmation of my generalization comes with the timing of Ecto's switch on Gurgi and the timing of Ecto's recent attack on CES. By and large, you attack Ecto and you move up on his scumlist. You defend him and you move down.

Ecto's attacks don't seem to have a great consistency or followthrough to them. I don't get the sense that he's read/processed my posts other than the ones directly involving him. I don't see any depth in his attacks on Yos or CES. No evidence that Ecto's looked into Yos's push on chamber/thoughts on Ythill or CES's comments on Ythill/chamber/Yos/CDB. No mention of CES's accusation that Yos and Ecto might be scum together.

Ecto has said recently that he looked at the competing wagons at the time (inHim and Ythill) and found those two guys to be gut protown. They've both stated that they have town reads on Ecto, making Ythill #8 to fit the pattern here of Ecto seeming to determine alignments based on who's attacking/defending him.

Once each on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, Ecto mentioned that he had a gut town read on me from "some post in the 300s". He attacked Glork and DGB in the same post Sunday for "setting up a MBL lynch next" among other things. It was the first time Ecto seemed interested in analyzing a whole lot outside people's direct opinions of him. He didn't like the Glork or DGB attacks on MBL. This post of Ecto's was Sunday, 7:38 AM.

Then DGB confirmed her read of Ecto as scum.
Then Glork ostensibly admitted to :superbadposting:
Then DGB switched her vote to MBL.
Then Glork indicated no interest in voting Ecto anymore.
Then DGB asks Ecto (who she thinks is scum) for his voteswitch to MBL.
Then Ecto freaks out on CES.
Then DGB suggests CES might be scum pissed that the wagon on Ecto (who she thinks is scum) is fading.
Then Ecto votes MBL alongside two people he just attacked for their bad attack on MBL.

Could be explained as survival instincts kicking in. But it just doesn't feel like he's aching for the truth to come out. I suppose it's not in his best interests to post what he found "gut town" about the target of a rival wagon. Ecto, I still want to know what the gut town read you got on me was, and how much weight you gave to it.

After all that blah-de-blah, I don't feel like I have a definitive read on Ecto. I definitely don't think he's reading the game as thoroughly as some. His scum "reads" are reactive, not proactive--they're all on people attacking him. He clears people as town if they find him townish, by and large.

Can I see him doing these things as town? Yes. He'd be bad town, in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there. For example, I think he should be considering his "instincts" on Glork and DGB before voting alongside them.

Can I see him doing these things as scum? Sure. In his newbie game with Mert, he was fairly convincing. (I don't think he was anywhere near as angry as caught scum in that game, Mert. http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=5193 ) Voting based on other people's perceptions of you is one of many possible ways to catch scum, and the excessive weight it has in Ecto's internal formula is a problem for me. I still need to read Yos more thoroughly and CES more critically, but my initial impression after reading pages 15-24 like five times is that Ecto's reads and arguments on CES and Yos are poor. His "read" of gut town on me is correct. His vote on me is poor and doesn't match his gut.

Panicky town or panicky scum? Can't say for sure. Can look to other players' behavior surrounding him to try to help figure it out. Glork and Fritz bailed on the Ectowagon when I said I was considering unvoting and asked people on the wagon for reasons behind their votes. A few others stayed. A bunch of people have expressed willingness to lynch Ecto as a deadline option. That's kind of how I feel. I'd like to explore a few other people first, not that we really have time to do so, but Glork's and DGB's recent behaviors have been bizarre and inconsistent.

I think my uncertainty on Ecto has been consistently clear, from:

How are we supposed to ascertain your alignment right now? You look more like scum than anyone in this game at the moment, and you're being intentionally obtuse in a futile attempt to make your pursuers look bad. It's not going to work, and you're going to rack up justified votes.

If you're town, intentionally giving everyone valid reasons to vote you doesn't help the town. If you're scum, you're boring.

to

If I had the dayvig I'd pop Ecto right now. I'm not confident in his alignment, though--he hasn't given us much to work with

to

Mert, Glork, CES, Yos, DGB, why specifically are you voting Ecto?

I just reviewed people's stated reasons for being on the wagon and they're terrible or mealymouthed or nonexistent.

Stark, is the guy scum or are we just removing him from the game for intransigence? Or likely both?

Fritz and CES, is the guy scum?

Tempted to unvote. Yos, is ecto scum? Your heart doesn't sound like it believes it in your last post where you voted him.

I've been accused (by only Glork and DGB, as far as I'm aware) of coaching Ecto, making intentionally bad arguments to protect Ecto, setting up Ecto for a bad lynch, and using Ecto as a tool to frame everyone else on his wagon.

Truth is, I still don't know Ecto's alignment, and neither do most of you. And the way to make progress on that front is by asking Ecto for clarification on his suspicions and by asking other people their opinions of Ecto. And that's pretty much exactly what I've been doing.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ecto, I have not said you exclusively suspect/clear people based on their reads of you. I have said there is an overly strong correlation that I find disturbing, and I pointed out the examples--and I found the timing of your Gurgi clear and CES attack to be solely based on their clears/ of you. I pointed out your likely reasons for clearing Fritz at the time, and pointed out that Glork was voting you while you cleared him. I'm not trying to snow anyone.

If you don't see scumhunting from me in
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2634753
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2647746
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2649749

or in:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2648081
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2649136
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2655781
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2655982
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2657677
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2657974
where I have been trying to assess the quality of people's Ecto-reads, I don't know what to tell you, man.

Right now, besides you, Glork and DGB are heavily pinging my radar for inconsistency, Ythill notices a lot but the relationship between his votes, rhetoric and evidence don't always seem to sync, inHim needs to deliver on his promised details of Gurgi, plus some details of his CES, MBL and Yos suspicions, because he's pretty flimsy this late in the day. Yos was a little too strident on chamber, chamber was weird in the way he approached his Yosvote and his suspicions of Ythill. More details tomorrow on my thoughts, this is just a rough summary and I'm wiped from travel and reading this game. But that's pretty much my order, heavily weighted towards the top. (Flameaxe, Mert and Huck are kinda slackin but haven't said anything atrocious yet. Wish they'd join in.)

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, can you please clarify what accusation you are making here and where you made it "several pages ago"? I really think there's been a significant difference in the quality and tenor of my scumhunting compared to Ectomancer's.

@MBL - it is heavily hypocritical to base your entire scum hunting around my wagon, yet attack me for doing the same simply because I am the target. That's bullshit.

God, it's almost as though somebody pointed this out a page or three ago.

I have based a good deal of my scumhunting around the Ecto-wagon today, but not all of it by any means. The following are posts I made that by and large involve other peoples' interactions exclusive of Ecto:

I'd like to hear your fuller opinion of chamber, independent of Yos's and stark's opinions.

Gurgi and stark are town. CTD is possible town with a good switch to Tripod, plus, odds-wise, scum are probably less likely to get wagoned to L-3 this early.

Ythill looked bad there for a bit (kind of manufactured a reason for thinking chamber was scum, then abandoned it awkwardly) but is looking better as of late. The Ecto attack felt ok. Following Ythill's mysterious third hand, I don't agree with his assessment/protection of Tripod. I'm not a fan of Ecto's vote on stark, but admittedly the game was still early and still in pseudo-random stage. stark's vote looked random, chamber's OMGUS looked like a joke vote, and ecto's decision to pick a side sounds manufactured. Interestingly, he took the opposite side ythill just had, and not they're "at each other". Ecto's "pick two, lynch one of them" also sounds a bit flip, random and weird, considering there was no significant reason to pick stark or chamber at the time. Later, Ecto said he wanted to "arrange a chamber lynch". Did you mean wagon? Cause it was kind of early at the time to be arranging lock and load lynches.

Mert not feeling the CTD wagon, but it was a little early to be not feeling it. After two early votehops (ces, glork) draws attention to Ythill's possible protection of lurkerscumpartner but doesnt switch his vote to Ythill. Moderately scummy. His vote on Tripod is a bit better, if wagony. Eye on Mert.

Shanba looked sketchy for a bit by agreeing with mert about ythill but not backing it up with a vote switch to ythill. chamber did the same thing, asking ces for "permission" to switch to ythill but not switching. Later, shanba agreed with Mert's post, but not with the CTD part. So he agreed with the Ythill part. But he, too, didn't switch his vote to Ythill. Eye on Shanba. "game developing nice texture" comment sounded townish but meh, he could be a clever faker.

Tripod, is English your first language? I made a note to ask you about your vote choice, then you said it was a joke, but it didn't feel like a joke. If it wasn't a joke, then I'm curious to know why you narrowed to {chamber, CTD} when you had Glork(4), stark(2), MBL(2), Gurgi(2) wagons to choose from.

Huck felt a little weird on and off my wagon, then seemed to get on the Ythill wagon for the weaker of two possible reasons. Ythill's vote switch was odd, but Huck voted Ythill for the lurker argument. Eye on Huck.

I disagree with inHim on CTD's vote switch. His pushing on Mert is fine with me.

Flameaxe looks ok with the specifics of his attack on Tripod.

Ythill

,

Your current vote on chamber is largely OMGUS and your previous suspicion of HH was largely OMGUS, before you decided HH wasn't scum because chamber was. (You abandoned your "paranoia" anti-town read on Huck awfully easily.)

You voted Mert and didn't really ask him anything--just told everyone that vote movement was good for the town. You've made consistently snide remarks in passing re: Mert but put zero weight behind them. Why is chamber's opinion of Mert more important than chamber's opinion of Ectomancer? You made a definite point of that, for some bizarre reason.

Ecto is on your suspect list, and his top two suspects are two of your town reads (Yos and MBL), one of your top suspects (Huck) is defending him, and yet you're trying to "determine" Ecto's alignment based on the tone of his righteous outrage instead of on his votes and suspicions or lack thereof? Two of your four tone-reads of Ecto told you he's a faker, and yet you switched your vote off him despite him not giving you what you asked for three times? (His suspicions.) In past games, how have you managed to catch scum? This is not how you do it, and it makes me wonder what you're up to.

Your main reason (is it the main reason or just one of them?) for voting chamber is that he wouldn't accept an "unwinnable" bet against you? (His "perfect knowledge" comment is spot-on when faced with such an offer.) If you want vote-movement (and I assume you mean "to chamber") shouldn't you give better reasons? Yours is weaker than Yos's, which involves possible contradictions in chamber's stated beliefs vs apparent beliefs. Can you please give us your full opinion of chamber's play and why you think we should move our votes to him?

Also, Flameaxe (BBM?) has been on your scumlist for ages and yet you've not asked him a thing or commented on a single one of his posts. Just an offhand remark about his posturing/following/buddying in the first day or two? Can you elaborate? Why the consistent read over ten days but no attacks or followups from you?

Also, you left stark off your read-list, and have never commented or implied your opinion of his alignment.

Your play is downright weird, and doesn't feel tied to a deep-down desire to hold scum feet to the fire and ferret out distinctions based on responses and actions. All that being said, you do seem to be making a lot of observations and contributing significantly more than Ectomancer. You just don't seem to care much about the end result.

@MBL:

I'm not going to answer all those questions. Could you, pretty please, quote the 3-4 you feel are most important?

Sure.
Please reconcile these two posts of yours which were made two hours apart:

Yos

had some convincing evidence I'd overlooked because I had taken the statement as

chamber

fishing for reactions, primarily from CES.

Anyone up for an impromptu wagon on Yos?
UNVOTE: chamber
VOTE: Yosarian2

and this one from a week earlier:

Town == Yos, Shanba, Gurgi, UT, inHim, MBL

Did you really cite Yos's word as your reason for voting chamber, and then promptly switch your vote from chamber to Yos?

Why would you expect anyone to "vote movement is protown!" to Yos if you don't even believe he's scum yourself? Or do you have a case you'd like to present? Were you dropped on the head as a child?

Also:
What's your current stance on Mert, Flameaxe, Huck, chamber and Ecto?

Also:
Is your current maniacal votehopping designed to obfuscate any possible benefit from analyzing your voting patterns when you're lynched as scum?

Right now, besides you, Glork and DGB are heavily pinging my radar for inconsistency, Ythill notices a lot but the relationship between his votes, rhetoric and evidence don't always seem to sync, inHim needs to deliver on his promised details of Gurgi, plus some details of his CES, MBL and Yos suspicions, because he's pretty flimsy this late in the day. Yos was a little too strident on chamber, chamber was weird in the way he approached his Yosvote and his suspicions of Ythill. More details tomorrow on my thoughts, this is just a rough summary and I'm wiped from travel and reading this game. But that's pretty much my order, heavily weighted towards the top. (Flameaxe, Mert and Huck are kinda slackin but haven't said anything atrocious yet. Wish they'd join in.)

===========================================================================
Separate question from DGB:

Hey MBL

Any town reads??? No?

Not sure if you got the memo, but townies typically don't go into lengthy detail on how much/why they find other townies townie. stark, ctd, shanba, gurgi, delibird are various degrees of pro-town in my eyes.

unvote Ecto

I assume there's a doc in this game, and if Ecto's not the doc, we'll see a counterclaim.

[MrBuddyLee]

EBWOP: CES is also somewhat pro-town in my eyes.

[MrBuddyLee]

inHim, when you commented earlier on Yos's post about chamber, I think you were accurate about the underlying "play":

I really feel that was just more camaraderie than actual gameplay, and you taking it seriously was just overzealous in form and function.

In a similar light, when you look at the totality of the CES-Ecto situation, it involves a much earlier accusation Ecto made:

@MBL - go back and read. Fishing for PR does not require Mert to be scum. Gurgi playing the "Hey I did that too!" card does not require Mert to be scum. (You see now how MBL is attacking a correllary of the situation, and not the accusation leveled at the player Gurgi or the merit of trying to read out from that situation? Actually, he is only using it as a further method of undercutting Ectomancer) Now this sir, is a scum read. This may yet garner a vote. It is fairly high severity for poor gamesmanship. I am still assessing whether it is an absolute mark of scumMBL. Were I presented with a deadline, there would be no doubt that MBL would be my best choice, with Gurgi a rather distant second.

1) Do you think Ecto was on the money with his assessment (the original "play"), or was he exaggerating the significance of what he commented on?
2) Do you think CES was sketchy in the way he waited until later to comment on the "play", or was it more the quality of his response that bothered you?
3) What, specifically, did you find convincing about Ecto's case on CES?

You mentioned a while back that it was odd for me to be interested in reads off of potential scum:

My point re: MBL is that, if you think Ecto is scum (and therefore NOT going to give quality reads) why does he want him to try and provide these reads? And if he's gotta go REGARDLESS (which backs up my previous question) of whether or not he is giving quality reads, you'll never getting around to truly judging how quality they are! WE HAVE NO CONFIRMED PLAYER-BASE INFORMATION YET AND THEREFORE READS ARE NOT WHAT ARE IMPORTANT, BUT ARGUMENTS.

1) Does it change your thought process on the situation in light of the fact that I was trying to ascertain Ecto's alignment by the quality of his reads (read: arguments)?
2) Where did you get the impression that I wanted him gone regardless of how he responded? That looks like a pretty bad misreading of what I said.
3) In a sentence or two, what's the core of your case on me?

Does your case on Yos go beyond the associative stuff to Gurgi/MBL that you posted in your recent post? I saw a few other posts where you were bothered by his chamber appoach and his Ecto approach and lack of vote. Can you present your cohesive view of Yos, please?

Good spot on:

And the topper of all this is in his #590 he has officially not listed Gurgi and MBL in his reads despite >20% of his posts involving those two.

I noticed that as well, and wondered why.

Yos

, if you've made it through this particular wall of text, what's your take on Gurgi and myself?

[MrBuddyLee]

Slight correction: I think you made a reasonable read of the Yos-chamber play at the time. Since then, chamber has said he had reasons for thinking Yos and I believe Ythill were possible scum at the time, and that he was also looking for reactions from them.

[MrBuddyLee]

DGB, you made the following post Thursday noon after you finished your first full set of reads, I believe:

Ecto wagon is pretty townie, though.

You posted three-ish times about Ecto being scum, up until I made my post expressing doubt about the wagon and asking the wagoners for reasons.

At that point, you made three posts that appeared to consider the possibility that I was scum setting up Ecto (and his entire wagon) for a mislynch.

Then four more posts from you sounding pretty sure that Ecto was scum, then you switched your vote to me.

1) Do you buy Ecto's claim?
2) You "LOVED" two of my posts, regarding Ythill and Ecto. In light of recent events, have your impression of those posts changed? Was there something sketchy about how I presented the Ecto case?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2647746 and
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2649136
3) What's your case on me, specifically? Is it the quality of the original cases, the timing or manner in which the Ectowagon was attacked, or just overall general bad juju? Here's my post that appeared to be your tipping point:

Mert, Glork, CES, Yos, DGB, why specifically are you voting Ecto?

I just reviewed people's stated reasons for being on the wagon and they're terrible or mealymouthed or nonexistent.

Stark, is the guy scum or are we just removing him from the game for intransigence? Or likely both?

Fritz and CES, is the guy scum?

I'm back east for 48 hrs and just taught a 68 year old to play gran turismo 5. I'd like to see everyone's lists of the four scum, and I'll try to post mine this weekend.

Tempted to unvote. Yos, is ecto scum? Your heart doesn't sound like it believes it in your last post where you voted him.

Finally:
4) Do you still see the old Ecto-wagon as "pretty townie"? Does his claim taint everyone on the wagon equally, or have you made distinctions?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork,

You wanted more pressure on Ecto at one time:

I would like to see more pressure on Ecto, especially in light of MBL's post (*cringe*).

Unvote, Vote: Ecto

I like MBL's questioning of Ecto.

Then you said I was insincere in the pressure I applied, which you took as "prods" of him.

I did like your earlier questioning of Ecto, but that sentence really reads like you're trying to prod him into shaping up before he actually bcomes lynch fodder and it makes me doubt your sincerity.

1) Do you believe Ecto's claim? If so, how do you revise and extend your remarks on the pressure I applied to Ecto over the course of the past few weeks? Was it the type of pressure you wanted? Did you learn anything from it? Was it scummy pressure?


Later, you made a giant leap in your read of my post attacking the Ectowagon:

I don't like how MBL is pre-emptively hedging his bets already. He's already trying to get dirt on every other player on the Ectowagon. MBL is practically telegraphing an Ectotown flip. He got the driven wagon he wanted, but now that an Ectolynch seems near-inevitable, he suddenly pulls back and questions literally all seven other players on the Ectowagon, as though he can't believe any of us could have justification for wanting Ecto dead, after he spent the entire day trying to convince us that we should want Ecto dead.

As others have said, that's one possible read of the situation.

2) What allows you to distinguish your conclusion so confidently from the other possible (and correct) conclusion: that I was shaking the tree?


Ten minutes later, you posted:

Ugh. I'm 50/50 on Ecto, actually.

I could see the possibility of Ecto and MBL being scum in separate factions, actually.

3) How is your uncertainty different from my uncertainty? What efforts were you making personally to flesh out the Ecto situation, while I was putting my neck on the line?


Aside: in four hours, you went from your flippant: "MBL and Ecto may be scum in separate factions" to:

There are definitely not two mafias, though.

which appeared to be yet another attempt to fit a square peg in a round hole. You corrected yourself later.


I'd like more details from you on this part especially:

Up until your recent change in behavior over the Ectolynch, I figured if he flipped town I'd probably largley ignore you tomorrow. But now I'm acutally thinking the exact opposite -- if Ecto's town, you're probably scum, and if he's scum, you're somewhat less likely to be scum.

4) What you appear to be saying is that if I had shut up and not questioned the Ectowagon, I'd be more townie in your eyes right now. Actually, that's bitter of me, and it's more accurate to say that you got some kind of read off the specific way I questioned the Ectowagon. Please clarify.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, Glork, what's your take on Yos?

[MrBuddyLee]

Fritz and CES, is the guy scum?

Who cares? Let's either lynch him or you. I don't really care at this point.

I'd rather see Ecto lynched than MBL. The former is worth more information, the latter is more obviously town. Either is bad though.

Yeah, bad guys maybe.

Fritz, do you buy Ecto's claim?

[MrBuddyLee]

Not sure yet on a vote. I was caught with my pants down by the whole deadline situation, and I'm not really in the mood to gin up instant ten-vote suspicion on someone. These things take time to do properly.

Yos

, what did you find scummiest about your earlier exchange with chamber? When I read your summary:

Well, he hasn't done much this game, and most of what he has done has been pretty scummy. The post where he asked CES if he wanted to "start a wagon against Yos or Ythill", designed in a way to make it sound like it was a joke when it wasn't, seemed scummy. I don't really get his vote against UT, he never explained it; and then his case against Ythill was worse, and he refused to explain it when asked. I just don't see his actions so far this game as being pro-town, or as having any pro-town intent.

it didn't seem to match your degree of conviction in his alignment:

Man; is it really just me, or does everyone else look at chamber's posts and just seem him as incredibly obvscum here?

Is there any way you can effectively communicate your degree of conviction that chamber is scum?

I was fine with your "prods" of Ecto. You seemed to want answers to help you read him. I found it weird that Glork attacked me for "helping" my scumbuddy Ecto but didn't go after you for the same thing. Did you process that?

Can you explain your solid protown read on Ythill? When he called your Ecto and chamber communications insincere, was that a genuine misread on his part?

Ythill

, can you please explain your case on Yos? It didn't look as convincing to me as you seem to have convinced yourself it is. I'm a little confused by your playstyle--you say a ton of stuff and make a lot of observations but don't really try to sell your beliefs when it comes down to it. You're voting someone who's at best your #7 suspect. Granted, better him than me, but you get my point.

chamber

, can you please explain what you were hoping everyone else would see about Ythill? I didn't see it. Also, why stark?

[MrBuddyLee]

You're voting someone who's at best your #7 suspect. Granted, better him than me, but you get my point.

EBWOP: motherfucker

[MrBuddyLee]

yes on lynch Mert: Huck, Ythill, DGB, CDB, Ecto, inHim, CTD, Yos, CES
no on lynch Mert: chamber, Flameaxe
have not weighed in: Glork, MBL, Mert, Fritz, shanba, stark, Gurgi

Where are the scum right now, on or off this wagon? If there are 4-5 scum, there are very likely some on this wagon. Why would scum switch from or choose Mert over inHim?

1) inHim is better scum than Mert
2) Mert is town

3) Mert is scum

I'd be shocked if scum would switch to nail a scumbuddy this late--they'd find excuses not to. Are all nine of the people on the Mertwagon town?

aargh, I hate the thought of hammering someone who's V/LA and who just went through a family crisis. Thinking.

[MrBuddyLee]

CTD, should I hammer? Mert's probably town, based on my brief and half-thought-through analysis.

But there is info on Mert now via this wagon.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, I'd like to see some rich, dark, chocolatey scum hunting from Glork. He's scoring high on the scumputer, I expect more from him.

Why don't you want to lynch him?

[MrBuddyLee]

We'll talk about Glork after you say something significant today.

Naw, I'd like you to answer my question instead of avoiding it, please.

I'm curious to know why your response to Glork's play yesterday is to "want him to play better and find scum" instead of to "want to look into lynching him because his play was scummy". It was an unusual statement on your part, considering he's come out at the top of your scumputer printout. I'd like details of your opinion of Glork, please.

It's my birthday today. I'll make some waves tomorrow. We only have twelve days or so to make this shit happen, and only eight or so if we're going to allow for a claim and retargeting this time.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not sinister. I'm here and I wrote half a post before being sucked back into WoW. Will finish it shortly.

ps. hi Ether

[MrBuddyLee]

No chest thumping here. Just observations. Shanba isn't the first person I wanted to read based on D1, but I think it's appropriate considering the current "building suspicions" and considering his bold stances on Yos, inHim and Ecto yesterday, among others.

By contrast, inhim's post about how he's losing confidence in his defence of untrod was really bad. It was like, super lazy with regards to just using fritz' one liner, and is super awkard in the way it appears to be trying to switch his position up. From where he's now sitting, he can go either way - he can reluctantly vote tripod and claim mind over heart, or he can halfheartedly defend him based on where the wind is going. I think that's a comfortable position for scum to be in - particularly scum who thinks they may have made a wrong call in defending tripod to start with. Honestly the thing that bugs me is that the tripod wagon was pretty much hot air, so to defend him by stating something along the lines of "the only reason I think you're town is gut" seems super weird.

Pretty bold scumread based on one 30-word post by inHim. The inHim post was notably weird, but it was early in the game, it fit inHim's chirpy style to some extent, and this read is over the top. Shanba seemed to stick with his inHim read based on that one post all day--didn't expand upon it based on other inHim posts or actions.

As a corollary, Glork's reads aren't making much sense.

If shanba turns up scum, this post means Glork is wrong or scum. I believe the reads in question at the time were MBL, Ecto, inHim. shanba differed on all three. I can also see town shanba pointing this out, because Glork was whack yesterday.

obfuscating words to excuse you from telling us your scumreads

re: Ecto. And yet shanba somehow knew that "obfuscating" meant town and not scum. How did shanba know this and the rest of us didn't? When the word "obfuscating" comes to my mind, I rarely slap a strong town read on that player.

I liked shanba's take on Ythill. I am trying to envision scum calling Ythill out like shanba did and it's difficult unless they're scum together. I'd think scum would be thrilled with Ythill's carpetbombing and hopping without putting much weight behind a wagon.

Seriously though the chamber ythill thing just feels super contrived. Like honestly both need to sit back clar their minds with some zen breathing shit or something and then reread the game and see whether they've accidentally been talking bullshit for most of this game.

When something's contrived, I usually try to figure out who's contriving and whether that makes them scum. I found that c-Y exchange phony from Ythill's end, and chamber was properly baffled. No such attempt here from Shanba, just a correct observation without an attached attempt to ferret out scum based on the observation.

Says ectomancer is smoke and mirrors three times. Points out how bad Yos's case is, and that my case is decent, but doesn't really make an effort to dissuade me on Ecto, more seems to want to be on the record as being right. Makes somewhat correct observations about Glork and Yos on the Ecto wagon though.

So certain on Ecto that he won't switch his vote near deadline to get a lynch. Weird but possible if he's a master at reading tone.

Defends Ecto, attacks Yos post-claim:

(@ yos) Or maybe you've just been trying really hard to get him lynched by blowing up small shit and attacking him vis playstyle over substance. /notbitter.

Votes Yos at the start of the day:

The thing is, I never really saw a case against him (Ecto).

I never got the sense that Shanba engaged me and tried to talk me down off Ecto, even though he had a strong town read on both me and Ecto. Maybe not his job, but I'd think he might have tried.

Top read today is Yos. He's not followed through on his Glork/inHim suspicions.

Glork needs to give me something to work with so I can actually try and address any of his concerns.

Doesn't sound like someone who has Glork in his top three suspects.

Shanba took the time to assess my logic re: the Mert hammer vs how Flameaxe and chamber approached it. Bonus point.

His analysis of the Mertwagon doesn't seem skeptical enough considering that shanba's #1 suspect, inHim, was the lynch alternative to Mert. You'd think shanba would approach the Mertwagon from the perspective of "who was protecting inHim" but he didn't.

His case on Yos seems to remain at: "wrong and weird on Ecto", "didn't push chamber proportionately to how sure he was of his alignment". The core of his Yos case is that "scum are attracted to a wagon like the Ectowagon". This attack fits my potential hypothesis that Shanba was scum sitting high and pretty above the fray during the Ectowagon. But his observations about Yos are mostly correct--Yos seemed to suspect chamber more and extraordinarily strongly, so why did he spend so much time duplicating my efforts on Ecto?

Need to read Yos before deciding on shanba. I don't like how shanba abandoned his inHim/Glork suspicions and/or forgot them in the context of the inHim/MBL/Mertwagons. But if Yos is scummy/scummiest/scum, Shanba's singular focus is more appropriate.

@Shanba

, who are the scum that helped bail out their scumpartner inHim? What's up with Glork?

@others: Is Shanba a busser?

[MrBuddyLee]

@

chamber

, what do you make of CDB's mild attempt to get inHim lynched instead of Mert/MBL yesterday? It looks like he's back on the inHim wagon again today. You say you have a scum-meta on CDB--does it include bussing?

[MrBuddyLee]

These posts from Yos looked weird to start off today:

Anyway,

vote:chamber

. I still want someone to explain to me why we didn't lynch chamber yesterday.

We still had time to lynch chamber instead of mert, though. I agreed that neither the inhim wagon nor the MBL wagon made sense, and it seemed at least possible that mert might be scum, but I don't get why at the end of the day the "let's lynch someone else" desperation wagon went for mert instead of chamber.

Honest people can get different reads, but your confusion that everyone didn't see obvscumchamber based on your presented evidence? Didn't seem realistic.

I asked you for the source of your conviction on chamber around the time Ecto claimed and you posted:

Bunch of things.

-I think he was buddying up to CES, who I'm pretty sure is town.

-The thing I explained in the top post; he seemed to be trying to have it both ways, to "jokingly" sugggest that him and CES wagon "either Ythill or Yos", and be able to both play it off as a joke and expect to be taken seriously at the same time. He never explained it, never really persued it, but then seemed surprised that I didn't know he actually suspected me.

-I really hate the way he came off in the whole exchange between him and ythill. Those posts "Classic scum post" and "flailing" seemed, I donno, despereate I guess.

-And then when I tried to get him to clarify his read on Ythill, he refused.

-The whole thing seemed like an attempt to whip up a crap wagon out of nowhere. And then, when it didn't work, his posting dropped out.

-I didn't really want to mention this, but I was wondering if he was trying to get Stark modkilled with that quoted AIM conversation.

-The rest of his posts since then have been pretty much worthless

Which gave me the heebies because the top two are a stretch and the Ythill one, I think chamber was in the right but regardless the "bet" back-and-forth didn't give me a read on chamber. The rest is mealy-mouthed and nonspecific, besides the null modkill comment. Basically, you had a superstrong scumread all day yesterday on chamber based on what I perceive as so-so evidence and I didn't get it. I know players like Glork act super sure of their reads when they're not actually sure. I'm not sure I've ever seen you do it, and so I had good reason to doubt your read and/or your sincerity when things didn't seem to synch up. Especially since you didn't really try to draw much out of chamber the way you did with Ecto.


Bad/incorrect read of Glork by Yos points to lazy play and possible strategic play or scumbuddy protection:

Glork is probably town. For example, he voted Ecto for good reason early , but then unvoted Ecto in response to Ecto REFUSING to claim, because

something about Ecto's post there gave Glork town vibes

. That feels more like town Glork to me.

Yos looks bad there for clearing Glork as town based on totally incorrect reading of the Glork-Ecto play:

Well, I certainly agree with your opinion on the other two wagons. If'n you were to flip town, I'd expect the scums to be evenly spread amongst those wagons (with one possibly off-wagon altogether). And believe it or not, I'm starting to come around on the notion of you being town, though

not by your own actions or defenses

.

Glork unvoted Ecto because I expressed doubt on Ecto and (if Glork's town, it gave him the heebies, if Glork's scum he was trying to set me up for a fall). Glork did NOT get a read on Ecto at ALL based on Ecto's post. I'm uncomfortable with Yos clearing Glork based on one (misread) post, while there is so much more from Glork to work with, and a lot of it is sketchy.

Comes into today balls to the wall for chamber, then votes/spars with Shanba and throws out a few clears of Ythill/CES/Huck. Shanba is a carryover from end of yesterday when shanba slammed Yos and said he'd give specifics today. Shanba's first post on Yos today is pretty good--better than the ones yesterday, and Yos confirms Shanba on his scumlist for it.

This http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2657788 Shanba post attacking Yos sucks. But mostly because it focuses on Yos's contribution to the wagon. Question in my mind is did Shanba make this post as scum with full knowledge attacking Yos, or as town who saw Yos as the scummy link on the Ecto wagon? I like this http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2669283 Shanba post a lot better. Good big picture analysis of Yos's play that seems to match reality. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2673994 is weaker. I actually don't have a huge problem with the way Yos interacted with Ecto, but I do have a problem with how Yos seemed "posture-y" yesterday:
This post came in the midst of a 15-post stretch yesterday where Yos didn't really seem to move the ball forward on his suspicions:

I don't really know what you're talking about here; my behavior so far has been to scumhunt aggressively, questioning and attacking the people who seem to be most suspicious. (Which is, at the moment, chamber, ecto, and hacker).

I didn't really see the aggressive questioning and attacking of chamber and hacker, and the attacks on Ecto were couched with "you could be dumb town, but...". Burden of proficiency and all, but I think I've seen much more incisive "scumhunting aggressively, questioning and attacking" from Yos.


@Glork: why was your urge to lynch chamber rising yesterday? And what's your take on Yos vs. chamber now?

@Yos, did you learn anything from the Ectowagon?
@Yos, chamber has posted a LOT since your old reads. Why no additional evaluation/questioning?

vote:Yosarian2

[MrBuddyLee]

**holds up mistletoe**
**busses DGB**

[MrBuddyLee]

Fine. Tell me what you think about chamber's play so far. My instincts are telling me he's scum. I tried to explain why, as well as I could; if you don't agree, then read his play and tell me what you think of it yourself.

I think he's not particularly scummy. His tone is townish, his scum/town gradient is similar to mine, and I don't have a problem with the vectors in which he's nudging the town. I do want a lil detail on his CDB read though.

Yos, do you have any comment on chamber's d2 play?

[MrBuddyLee]

His post where he made a list of who suspects who (his post #70 in ISO) feels mildly scummy; I can see why someone might have pro-town reasons for it, but it feels more like an attempt to manipulate the town into lynching certain ways.

The top four "suspicion-getters" in chamber's post were inHim, Yos, CDB and shanba. And he listed CES 5th, and then defended him. You suspect shanba, you've said CDB is pressure-worthy, and you read inHim as townish, and you don't suspect yourself. Do you really disapprove of chamber's attempt to get a wagon going on one or more of {shanba, CDB, inHim, Yos}?

[MrBuddyLee]

I have no real opinion on the mert wagon. It seems kinda boring to be honest. A quick compromise wagon to avoid lynching the claimed power role on a low-activity player? Yeah. I'm not sure how that's telling in any way.

This entire paragraph is kind of bullshit.

I'd be content to lynch Shanba today.

Vote: Shanba

it's not bullshit. Like, here's the thing - town's gonna jump on to get a lynch. scum's gonna jump on to get a lynch. woo.

It's bullshit because there's no way you could get ZERO inklings from that wagon at all. If the scums wanted to wagon someone to lynch, then there had to be SOME turning point that made them jump to Mert. If they didn't, then you should be doing what HackerHuck is doing, and closely examining the people who were off-wagon when the lynch went down. But instead of bothering to think about these possibilities, you make a blanket non-statement like "I have no real opinion" of it? Nope. That's bullshit.

@

Glork

, if you have a theory of who the scum are based on the Mert-wagon, can you please fill us in? I have your theory that:

I'm pretty sure that one of the prior alternate wagons {MBL, inHim, Yos} was scum. Yos is my placeholder for now, but I want to go back and look at who switched from which alternate wagons when. That'll probably lead us to see who was protecting whom. Obviously, Mert became the "fall guy," but he almost certainly took the fall for SOMEONE.

Which you retracted once you realized Yos didn't fit the bill. If you're going to accuse Shanba of scumminess for not gleaning much from the Mertwagon, you should probably lay out more clearly what you think Shanba failed to note.

Ectomancer (4) -- stark, Cogito Ergo Sum, Mert, Yosarian2
Ythill (2) -- HackerHuck, CrashTextDummie
inHimshallibe (5) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba, ChannelDelibird, chamber, Ythill
MrBuddyLee (4) -- Glork, DrippingGoofball,

Fritzler

, inHimshallibe
Yosarian2 (1) -- Ectomancer

Ectomancer (2) -- stark, Mert
inHimshallibe (3) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba, chamber
MrBuddyLee (2) -- Glork,

Fritzler

Mert (10) -- HackerHuck, Ythill, DrippingGoofball, inHimshallibe,

Ectomancer

, ChannelDelibird, CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum, Yosarian2, Flameaxe

(note: your #1 current suspect stayed on inHim, and your #2 suspect moved to Mert to get a lynch but expressed a clear preference for an inHim lynch. DGB and inHim hopped off MBL to get Mert lynched.)

@

Glork

: Who did Mert take the fall for?

We'll talk about Glork after you say something significant today.

Naw, I'd like you to answer my question instead of avoiding it, please.

I'm curious to know why your response to Glork's play yesterday is to "want him to play better and find scum" instead of to "want to look into lynching him because his play was scummy". It was an unusual statement on your part, considering he's come out at the top of your scumputer printout. I'd like details of your opinion of Glork, please.

Glork has 7 days to deliver that rich, dark, chocolatey analysis. If he fails, he will need to die.

@

DGB

: How's Glork doing so far, five days later? Right now his vote's on CDB, a lurker he doesn't think is scum based on a meta:

I would also prefer a Shanba lynch over a UT/CDB lynch, because (and this may sound stupid because of its metagaming nature) I think UT would have stayed around and kept superlurking if he were scum, rather than replacing out. Shanba fits the bill of Lurkerscum much more than UT/CDB.

Here's the sum of his "chocolatey analysis" on UT/CDB:

I'm not feeling the UT wagon.

If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon.

I think CTD's "UT has clammed up" comment is right on the money), but it's not enough to convince me that he needs dead.

@

DGB

: Is Glork really trying to catch scum?

Back to one more question for Glork:

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

@

Glork

, I believe you're saying here that you agree with DGB's scumputer even though you disagree with its top two scum outputs (Glork and CES) and DGB herself disagrees with the number three result? (chamber)? What exactly is DGB "on to" with the scumputer analysis?

[MrBuddyLee]

While you were pushing Ecto during the meat of D1, who else did you suspect?
After Ecto's doctor claim, who were your top two suspects later in D1? Why didn't you vote for either of those players? Did you even want a Lynch D1?
Who are your top two suspects right now? Why aren't you voting for either of those players?

While I was pushing Ecto, I had my eye on all sorts of folks. It's day one, after all. Ythill was weird in the way he hopped off wagons before getting any information from them or pushing for significant info. Yos was weird for pushing chamber in a manner that didn't match his evidence. inHim was a little weird, mostly a style thing. Obviously, you were a knucklehead or scum for pushing an Ecto-MBL scumpair like it was gospel.

Ecto wasn't a waste of time at all. Day one wagons are supposed to give you reads on people, based on how they make their cases and take sides. Lots of people have reads on Yos, me, Shanba, you, DGB, Ythill, etc. based on how they handled the Ecto situation. Obviously it'd have been better if the target was scum, but as town I don't have the luxury of knowing that the intransigent (my word), "obfuscating" (Shanba's word), "shifty" (Yos's word), "genuine" (Huck's word) player is just a terrible townie.

After Ecto's doctor claim, we had about 36 hours to get a lynch, I believe. I spent the time asking questions of the people I wanted more information from. I didn't see the point of just jumping on a wagon willy-nilly, and tried to use the time to get more people on the record about things they (and I) hadn't necessarily discussed while I was "wasting" their time with the Ectowagon. inHim, Yos, DGB, you. Obviously, from my perspective, if scum were protecting anyone in yesterday's situation it was inHim, but I didn't have a clear scum read on him. He's made a few observations (one about Yos not commenting on Gurgi and me is a good example) that looked like something town would spot and not scum.

You've done a lot of picking apart others' posts, but not enough sharing of your own opinions, MBL. I am

NOT

going to let you skate through the day without pushing peoples' lynches. Yesterday you tunneled on Ecto, which turned out to be a complete waste of time.

We're on Page 44 and you have yet to vote for a single player other than Ecto, who was town

. Man up and start hunting scum.

I think it's charming that in Oldy Mafia, you've joined me in the inevitable march towards senility. Try skimming the last few pages again. And if you're looking for a WoW raid, I run one you might feel comfortable in. The paladins forget to buff, the tanks forget to pick mobs off the healers, and the melee all forget to move out of the fire.

[MrBuddyLee]

Huck, your recent analyses narrowed the scumpool to non-Mert-wagoners for the purposes of finding at least one scum in there. Your previous read was inHim = townish. So your theory seems to be that at least one scum would have stayed on the wagons of the two townies (inHim, MBL)?

Who are the person or two on the Mertwagon you find most suspicious? Do the timing of their vote-switches to Mert fit your theory?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, if this were an MBF-style game where nobody could be Not-Voting, where would your vote be right now?

I apologize. If I were voting right now, it'd probably be for Yos, for the reasons I outlined in http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2679328 this post.

[MrBuddyLee]

If inHim would be the hypothetical protected scum, why did you not at least indicate that you'd be willing to support his lynch?

He wasn't hypothetical protected scum at the time, and I was unsure whether or not he was lynchworthy at the time.

Who did you want to lynch at the end of D1?
Why were you not voting that person?
If you weren't willing to lynch anyone, how does that make for sound protown strategy?

The wagons at the time of Ecto's claim looked like:

MrBuddyLee (4) -- Glork, DrippingGoofball, Fritzler, inHimshallibe
inHimshallibe (4) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba, ChannelDelibird, chamber
Ectomancer (4) -- stark, Cogito Ergo Sum, Mert, Yosarian2
Ythill (1) -- HackerHuck
ChannelDelibird (1) -- Flameaxe
Mert (1) -- Ythill
DrippingGoofball (1) -- CrashTextDummie
Yosarian2 (1) -- Ectomancer

Obviously I'd rather have had inHim lynched than myself, but not without chatting him up first. I hadn't found him top-level scummy all day, just a person of possible interest. So I opened a lil dialogue with him and with others.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2659716

I waited as long as possible to vote because I was waiting for responses, watching vote movement for clues, and still making up my mind between what I saw as two choices that weren't ideal. I'm not a big fan of "lynch for lynch's sake".

Again, you're using outdated information here. Shanba's defense of the nonexistent CDB-wagon (literally, there wasn't a single vote on CDB, and Shanba was blasting the lurkerhunt nature of the "wagon") is an extremely strong connection. Either Shanba is trying to earn superduperbrowniepoints by going "see, ITY he wasn't scum" when CDB does die, or he's trying to make sure that the wagon doesn't actually build (at least, not before CDB has a chance to actually participate in the game).

Are you saying that other than the shanba-CDB association you have no evidence on CDB? If so, why wouldn't you lynch Shanba first to test your theory?

@ MBL

Shall I vig Glork?

No, just please talk about him more. You seem to be avoiding that.

[MrBuddyLee]

whoever asked: inhim is still scummy. I haven't gone over him in depth. I'm using the yos thing as a means to stay somewhat active whilst in exam period

Inhim is an old read. I'm a little bit wary about pursuing it because I literally can't remember anything else he's done - perhaps that's a reason to pursue him in and of itself, but I need to read him again to get a feel for what he's done. My default assumption is that he's still scummy, though.

FOS: Shanba

. Congrats on completing exams! Go get drunk, sober up, and give us some analysis.

[MrBuddyLee]

@

Patrick

, requesting a week's extension, considering that due to holidays and people's exams, it seems we haven't gotten jack shit done in two weeks.

Or we could lynch CDB, who replaced in for god knows why.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm giving today a fairly generous deadline extension because I know how quiet the christmas periods are; deadline will hit on the 4th of January. It won't be extended beyond that.

EBWOP: nevermind, lol

[MrBuddyLee]

@

Patrick

, requesting a week's extension, considering that due to holidays and people's exams, it seems we haven't gotten jack shit done in two weeks.

Or we could lynch CDB, who replaced in for god knows why.

Tell me, have you voiced a desire to lynch UT/CDB before? I'll go hunting.

You missed the poor attempt at sarcasm. We don't particularly have any good reason to lynch CDB, because he chose to replace in for a lurker and then proceeded to disappear for two weeks.

Mm. Yeah, I could see MBL as scum. His scumhunting so far this game has been kind of disappointing

Why specifically has my scumhunting been disappointing this game?

and I still think it's odd he was voting nobody at all at the end of day 1.

Why specifically did you find that odd?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork's more than likely right that one of {my, Yos', MBL's} wagons were on scum.

Why, specifically, is Glork likely right about this? Note, he retracted the Yos angle.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork's more than likely right that one of {my, Yos', MBL's} wagons were on scum.

Why, specifically, is Glork likely right about this? Note, he retracted the Yos angle.

Because if he's town, he has good instincts on things like this, and I tend to trust him.

Or if he's scum, he's feeding us just enough correct information to fly by the seat of his pants.

And you bring up a good point. I'd be down for lynching Glork posthaste if Yos turns up scum, and vice versa.

That's not what I was saying--Glork didn't protect Yos there. Glork said:

I'm pretty sure that one of the prior alternate wagons {MBL, inHim, Yos} was scum. Yos is my placeholder for now, but I want to go back and look at who switched from which alternate wagons when. That'll probably lead us to see who was protecting whom. Obviously, Mert became the "fall guy," but he almost certainly took the fall for SOMEONE.

Unvote

Really, it was down to inHim/MBL/Ecto at that point. Yos doesn't make as much sense for the "protection" theory.

So he's right that having Yos on that "protected scum" list makes no sense, because Yos hadn't had a wagon of 3 on him for a few days before Ecto claimed. The votecount around Ecto claim time was:

Ectomancer (4) -- stark, Cogito Ergo Sum, Mert, Yosarian2
Ythill (2) -- HackerHuck, CrashTextDummie
inHimshallibe (5) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba, ChannelDelibird, chamber, Ythill
MrBuddyLee (4) -- Glork, DrippingGoofball, Fritzler, inHimshallibe
Yosarian2 (1) -- Ectomancer

So what I was asking you is: why specifically do you buy Glork's theory that the Mertwagon arose because one of {inHim, MBL} was scum being protected?

I have considered the possibility that scum came out of the woodwork to defuse your wagon, inHim. Here's how it went down:
* Huck said neither you nor I were scummy, and he voted Mert(1)
If you are town, it made little sense for scumHuck to do this when he could have hopped on you (or me) for a more likely doable 24 hr lynch. If you are scum together, it was a suicide play by Huck. When you go down (and you could have easily been lynched that day), he'd be in big trouble for this play.
* CDB posts saying he doesn't see the sense in what Huck did. CDB wanted you lynched. No protection of you there at all.
* Yos expresses that I'm townish
* DGB expresses that she doesn't like the MBL wagon, which she's on, or the inHim wagon. She's the second person to express willingness to switch to Mert. Mild possible protection of you if you turn up scum. Townish if you're town--she could have read you and me successfully.
* Yos expresses ambivalence, says he'd be willing to lynch Mert. Mild protection of you if you are scum, townish if you're town.
* chamber not willing to lynch Mert, willing to lynch inHim and not MBL, gives a list of 5 lynchables. null to townish.
* Ythill switches from inHim to Mert(2), invoking slim likelihood of possible Mert power role. Possible protection if you're scum. townish if you're town. Ythill was voting inHim even though inHim was his #7 suspect, so it's not a super unusual switch.
* Ecto reads mbl and inHim as town--MBL lynch looking very unlikely, inHim lynch looking less likely. His reaction is the only confirmed town reaction at this point, and he hasn't switched to Mert yet. Still on Yos.
* chamber says voting for Mert is anti-town. wants an inHim lynch or for people to go on the record voting mbl. townish, moreso if you're scum.
* CES votes inHim(5)
* DGB votes Mert(3)
* inHim switches from MBL to Mert(4). Self-preservation, null tell.
* Ecto votes Mert(5)
* CDB switches from inHim to Mert(6) 2.5 hrs before deadline. This is the vote that nailed the coffin shut, as I believe the count went from 5-5 to 6-4.
* CTD votes Mert(7)
* CES votes Mert(8)
* Yos votes Mert(9)
* Flameaxe hammers

If inHim is scum, the people to look at, in order, based only on protective statements/votes near deadline, are probably Ythill, DGB, Yos. Huck too, but as scum his play would have been mindboggingly bold. Obviously, scum could have been scared to act and let town work the magic until inevitability, so we need to look at each one of these actions at a level of detail. If Ythill is town who was only voting you to get a lynch, his switch makes sense. If you are town, in fact, Ythill is probably town, because he totally bailed you out. Same with Huck--if you're town, he stuck his neck out for you.

If you are scum, it's really unlikely that CES is scum. He tried to re-bury you when the Mert momentum was rolling. Same applies to chamber to a lesser extent, and to CDB, who tried to fuel your wagon for a long time near deadline before switching late.

Back to the reason I started this post--I see your trust in Glork on this topic as odd and blind to an extent, for several reasons. If you're town, the wagons Mertwagon defused were both town. I don't feel like you've looked at the evidence, or Glork's comments, to assess whether that's likely or not.

I believe Shanba, CTD, Gurgi, chamber, CDB, Huck, Ythill, and later Ecto Yos and DGB all found me townish or were unwilling to lynch me D1. I'm not scum, but even if you're looking at that bunch skeptically, you can't say they're ALL scum protecting me by voting you or Mert instead. The reason my wagon failed is because I wasn't scummy. Similarly, DGB, Glork, CTD, Fritz, and later Ecto and Yos and halfheartedly Huck found you townish. For Glork's theory to hold true, basically, either your scumpartners protected you via vote-switches (Ythill, DGB, Yos, Huck etc) or the scum protected you by finding you townish. (Glork, CTD, semi-DGB/Yos).

Also, Glork said that if a scum was protected by the Mertwagon, it was probably you. So basing your vote for me on his instincts on that specific issue was a sketchy/uninformed thing to do.

FOS

[MrBuddyLee]

In case you were wondering what people were up to around deadline:

inactive

stark--posted V/LAish but didn't revote or express opinions Monday postclaim
glork --nothing post-claim or tues, even though he posted in another game 8 hrs before our deadline, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2661053 one post pre-claim monday, only cast weak sideways suspicion on MBL by sucking up to Ecto
shanba--one post post-claim sucking up to Ecto, casting suspicion on Yos, defended mbl and attacked inHim sunday but nothing monday/tues

flameaxe--active at deadline but only defended mert

yos--semiactive, defended inhim and mbl, was reading the game
huck--semiactive and directing votes
ctd--active and directing votes
ythill--active and directing votes
gurgi--active and directing votes
cdb -- active and directing votes
CES -- active and directing votes
inHim--active and posted a full town/scumlist Monday
chamber--active and encouraging votes mon/tues
DGB--active and directing votes

most active

town: Ecto(active), Fritz(inactive), Mert(V/LA), MBL(active)

Most players were active and expressing clear opinions of the various wagons. (inHim, MBL, Mert). I don't think ALL scum would hide in this situation, but I definitely think there was more risk for scum than for town by showing up to interact.

Glork looks bad--I suppose if he is truly town locked tight on MBL he doesn't have to contribute, but it's uncharacteristic. Vote count was inHim 5, MBL 4, Mert 2 when Glork posted in the other thread.

shanba looks bad but he did go on record sunday
"Weeell I could switch my vote up. But I'm not switching to ecto. And other than ecto inhim is still the biggest wagon (or at least was at last vc). So why would I?"

flameaxe looks useless/bad

stark looks V/LA (disappeared from site completely)

[MrBuddyLee]

I also think it was anti-town of him to not be voting anyone after the Ecto wagon collapsed yesterday.

In fact,

unvote:chamber

Vote: MBL

. I think this is the way to go today.

So chamber, Gurgi, MBL is your scumteam at this point. What made you decide to switch from voting chamber to voting me? Was it inHim's vote on me, which he retracted?

You recently had chamber as "almost definitely scum, how do you guys not see it" and your conclusion on my day one play was "you look pretty town but I know you're capable of fooling me". Can you please explain how that's flipped, or do you still feel more strongly about chamberscum?

I apologize if I've asked you this before, but I'm running out to get a pizza and I want to see the answer to this. I'll look for it when I get back if you've answered it before. Can you explain your town read on inHim?

@

Shanba

: Will you be around and playing the game regularly between now and January 4th? I'm looking forward to your inHim and Ythill reads, plus a more elaborate Glorkread, among others.

[MrBuddyLee]

Oh, the reason I originally quoted that from you was to ask this, Yos:

Do you think the questions I was asking yesterday as we headed down to the wire, and the questions I'm asking today, are useless? I was at 4 votes when Ecto claimed, and inHim was at 4/5, and I didn't want to mindlessly tack on a vote just to save my ass and add momentum to inHim's wagon. Instead, I asked him and others a few things I thought might make my decision clearer.

I accept that you find me heavy on questions light on conclusions, but I still think they're the right questions to be asking. When we finally get a scumflip, I think town will find the answers to those questions a lot more useful than they do now.

Over the next week, I'll try to put together an integrated picture of how I see the game. We have some time, as long as people are participating here and there over the holiday. The picture's definitely coming clearer.

[MrBuddyLee]

Gurgi,

Is your scumteam inHim, Yos, Ythill, and then one of {DGB, chamber, Prozac, HH, CDB} ?

You summarized your case on Ythill as "He thinks I'm town. I don't really have any other problems with him." Any other details to sell your case?

You said you didn't want to get into specific arguments with Yos because you'd probably lose. But without your actual reasons for suspecting him, it's hard to get a read on you. Got anything specific?

On inHim, you said: "A lot of people have expressed suspicion of inHim too, enough to get it to 5 or 6 votes easily, but it doesn't happen? Why?" The living people who have pushed inHim at various time are you, CDB, Shanba, Delibird, chamber, Ythill. DGB had him as solid town for a while before recently backing off. Ditto for Glork. CES went after him but is currently apathetic about the wagon. That leaves CTD and Huck who see him as townish, I see him as scummier than average or very sloppy, Poro and Ether no opinion. Who do you see as the scum protecting inHim so he can't be lynched?

Those are the most important questions for ya, if you have time, here are a few more:

How do you get your townish read on Glork?

How do you get a top four townish read on Shanba?

You say your top three scumpicks don't really have a chance of being lynched today. Do you really feel that way about Yos and inHim?

Porochaz, what do you think of inHim, Shanba and Yos?
Ether, same question.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, I'm sorry if this offends you, but I feel like a vast majority of your questions accomplish little to nothing.

Please feel free to point out a specific question or two of mine that you consider useless. Note I did not phrase that request in the form of a question.

[MrBuddyLee]

Is the fakeclaim machine jammed?

[MrBuddyLee]

unvote

This day

can't

end until CDB, Ether and Porochaz give us more opinions.

[MrBuddyLee]

The most important thing for you to figure out right now, CDB, is the Yos-inHim relationship, IMO. There are a fair number of things that appear to tie them together, from Yos "bailing out" inHim at lynch time yesterday to Yos appearing to sheep on an inHim MBL vote today. Is Yos a townie who's got a genuine pro-town read on inHim? A townie who's wrong about inHim? Scum who's protecting inHim? Or scum who's trying to look good when inHim comes up town someday?

A lot of people have expressed opinions about Yos and inHim and there have been significant, meaningful wagons on both now. A good second task for you might be to let us know what you think of the quality of the inHim wagon yesterday and why it fell apart. Followed by an analysis of the current Yoswagon.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yos getting more Town by the post. Keep up the Gurgi suspicion. :thumbup:

Glork's more than likely right that one of {my, Yos', MBL's} wagons were on scum. Not me. Leaning not Yos now. Combined with the above, MBL seems like a fine vote.

And you bring up a good point. I'd be down for lynching Glork posthaste if Yos turns up scum, and vice versa.

thats L-1

Really?

Shit, I almost hammered him.

You almost hammered someone who you think is town?

gigantic FOS: inHim

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL's Useless Question #117: @DGB, what's your take on inHim expressing willingness to hammer Yos, who he recently said was town?

[MrBuddyLee]

Jesus H Christmas.. please just answer the question. Why are you willing to hammer Yos when you recently said he was likely town?

[MrBuddyLee]

Porochaz, what do you think of inHim, Shanba and Yos?

[MrBuddyLee]

I have. He's damned dangerous scum, because he's a very skilled player who always looks vaguely pro-town, so you have to carefully go back and look at his play and what he's doing instead of just trying to read his posts and seeing if he feels helpful, because he always feels vaguely pro-town and helpful, even when he's scum who's not doing a damned thing to help the town. In this game, if you actually look at him and analyze what he's done, it becomes clear that he really hasn't done any solid, concrete actions that have a pro-town effect all game. This is very unlikely to be coincidence.

1) I don't think you've ever played with me as scum. I'm actually pretty shitty scum. And I haven't been scum on this website for like 3 years so I'd be a train wreck if that was my role this game.

2) I feel like I've actually spotted some decent shit this game in my role as town. My feelings would be hurt by you not noticing, except I'm a few sheets to the wind and headed out for a few more drinks.

Please indulge me.. if I'm town, do you still think Gurgi and whoever else are still scum? If I'm town, please reevaluate and let me know who you think the scum are. I'm seriously considering inHim right now for his chirpy play over two days plus his overeager willingness to hammer you on a wagon I drove to some extent. The last thing I want is a mislynch followed by obsession over me tomorrow, so let's talk turkey.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, is inHim's quick flip from "Yos is townish" to "I'll hammer Yos" an inHim scumtell? It's an awfully quick flip based on no new evidence.

[MrBuddyLee]

I was at work. I wasn't here. MBL is dead wrong. MBL is spewing nonsense and obviously you can't be arsed to check his facts, CTD.

glork --nothing post-claim or tues, even though he posted in another game 8 hrs before our deadline, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2661053 one post pre-claim monday, only cast weak sideways suspicion on MBL by sucking up to Ecto

Glork looks bad--I suppose if he is truly town locked tight on MBL he doesn't have to contribute, but it's uncharacteristic. Vote count was inHim 5, MBL 4, Mert 2 when Glork posted in the other thread.

[MrBuddyLee]

I like his recent play and the people he's poking at/trusting. So no, right now he's not on my scum list.

I wasn't thrilled with his D1 play or his limited focus to Shanba/CDB earlier today or that he missed my two giant posts Friday about Shanba and Yos and my vote for Yos:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2679001
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2679328

We're on Page 44 and you have yet to vote for a single player other than Ecto, who was town

. Man up and start hunting scum.

MBL, if this were an MBF-style game where nobody could be Not-Voting, where would your vote be right now?

Implies skimming. However, all of his flaws this game can be explained by his preoccupation with women and orcs.

[MrBuddyLee]

Merry Christmas, scumbags and good guys alike!

[MrBuddyLee]

Please don't discourage the scum from bussing their partners.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: inHim

[MrBuddyLee]

Interesting, MBL. I assume that's related to his odd "I'd hammer Yos" comment?

Do you feel like he(inHim)'s interested in catching scum? He's going to hammer you despite thinking you're town--says he might be wrong which looks like an attempt to look good regardless of result. His posts indicating he thinks you're town:

Woo, Yos, let's vote Gurgi!

Yos getting more Town by the post. Keep up the Gurgi suspicion. :thumbup:

Glork's more than likely right that one of {my, Yos', MBL's} wagons were on scum. Not me. Leaning not Yos now.

LOL, Gurgi doesn't want to really play the hardball with Yos.

Made a few frame-up attempts if CDB is town:

Tell me, have you voiced a desire to lynch UT/CDB before? I'll go hunting.

(posted a votecount "for posterity" that included:
ChannelDelibird (6) -- Glork, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum, Ether, DrippingGoofball, CrashTextDummie
which looks like a frame-up attempt on those six people should CDB come up town. Why post that and then parrot DGB:

"fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity."

Overnight is an eternity.

I was going to say something similar, but thought better of it.

Why post that right after:

When CDB shows up and claims something, if you all believe it let's lynch Gurgi.

which seems to imply that inHim is ready to believe CDB's claim?

ugh. Hypothesis:
* inHim is scum
* Porochaz is possible scum, as inHim is oddly firm in this belief, constantly referencing him as scum but never pointing out anything specific, just more seems to want to look right when the flip happens. Not asking Poro anything, not reacting much to his posts, not trying to sell the case. "@Flameaxe: Eh, I think you have good points against UT as UT continued to poorly defend himself. I'm still not sold on your initial attack, though, and feel you could be scum that lucked out with poor responses, because I think UT is town that got frustrated when he was misnterpreted." Almost seems to know Flameaxe is scum and UT is town. Even though Flameaxe has been his #1 suspect over two gamedays, that is the sum of his presented evidence on Flameaxe--essentially "you have good points but I spotted you scummy on the same topic earlier."
* Yos is more likely town, possible inHim was reticent about hammering Yos because he didnt want to look bad and tried to look good by claiming he did a cautious votecount first. Forgot that he recently proclaimed Yos town. Before that, was setting it up for himself to look good after Yos's lynch. (Yos looking more town by the post, agreeing to vote with Yos.) Earlier, "I think Yos' outdated vote on chamber needed to be called out so Yos could better use his scumhunting in other places."
* CDB is possible town, inHim has said too many odd things about him: "I think I've run out of reasons to defend UT, even if I still have this gut feeling he's town." "Would be rather surprised if UT ends up scum after all." "When CDB shows up and claims something, if you all believe it let's lynch Gurgi." all on a player who's posted next to nothing.
* Glork is slightly more likely town.. inHim kissing up and casting suspicion seems unlikely if they're scum together.
* Gurgi is slightly more likely town--I doubt scumpartners would waste that much time talking past each other.
* CTD slightly more likely town, inHim fueled a big CTDwagon early and then hopped off with the improbable: "CTD wagon successfully defused. We have lots of info if he's scum." Willing to defend CTD while defending UT/CDB: "CTD is fine. The real culprit in the persecution of UT is here." (Singles out the weak Flameaxe for his vote on UT.) Bogus-sounding: "If CTD is indeed scum, I'm saying his wagon fell apart due to his teammates successfully stirring up suspicion elsewhere. I wanted to make sure people remembered these moments in D1 if CTD was scum."


He's on me because he trusts Glork's instincts, except Glork doesn't particularly suspect me, just thinks one of {Yos, MBL, inHim} is scum. Says pretty flatly that Glork's right either way--he's town with good instinct or he's scum feeding us correct information to keep us off his trail. (Note, Glork's "prediction" is correct if inHim or Yos are scum.) InHim's said more things that look really sketchy than anyone else in the game. Here's that one:

Glork's more than likely right that one of {my, Yos', MBL's} wagons were on scum.

Why, specifically, is Glork likely right about this? Note, he retracted the Yos angle.

Because if he's town, he has good instincts on things like this, and I tend to trust him.

Or if he's scum, he's feeding us just enough correct information to fly by the seat of his pants.

And you bring up a good point. I'd be down for lynching Glork posthaste if Yos turns up scum, and vice versa.

Sketchy things about just this one post:
1) kissup to Glork
2) overtrust of Glork imo based on the quality of Glork's play at the time
3) Leaving it open such that inHim is right

either way

here, assuming Yos is scum.
4) Almost feels like inHim has inside info to know Glork's call is correct.
5) Misreads my Glork-Yos comment
6) Sets up the 1-2 Glork-Yos punch for no specifically evident reason.

Wants Porochaz vigged without asking him much of anything--odd certainty that Flameaxe is scum. Shows odd confidence that CDB is town. Weird scumpairs--if MBL then Shanba, if Glork then DGB.

The one good thing I see about inHim is he's giving a ton of opinions on people. But they seem somewhat weakly supported.

@

inHim

, who were you referring to here?

Plenty of people I consider town

have been putting you(Gurgi) in their town columns.

Note the votecount when inHim said this:

Hey Inhim

Who are we lynching today?

Probably town.

Votecount

Yosarian2 (3) -- Shanba, MrBuddyLee, Ythill
inHimshallibe (2) -- ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi
ChannelDelibird (6) -- Glork, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum, Ether, DrippingGoofball, CrashTextDummie
Shanba (1) -- HackerHuck
Lord Gurgi (1) -- inHimshallibe
Ythill (1) -- Porochaz
MrBuddyLee (1) -- Yosarian2

Not voting: Nobody
15 alive, 8 to lynch

Sounds oddly confident. Yos and CDB possible town if inHim is scum.

Oddly avoided comment on the Shanbawagon despite:

Definite scumpair: If MBL, then Shanba.

=====================================================
I need to read inHim again from the perspective of "he's town" to see if his posts can possibly make sense from that perspective. My paranoia fueled the web of conspiracy hypothesis I just posted, and it's possible it's wrong, but a lot of it seems consistent with inHim=scum.

@

all

, does inHim have a tendency to like to make lots of "correct" statements when he's scum? Or does he make a lot of these types of flat, seemingly certain observations regardless?

[MrBuddyLee]

I would have jumped on the InHim wagon that MBL is pushing, but his post was way over the top. I'm going to do a little rereading myself, but I also want to see what MBL has to say about it from a 'InHim is town' perspective.

I've wasted a small but significant chunk of my life rereading inHim from the perspective of town, and there are some things I have trouble getting past.

1) It seems his strongest reads are on Flameaxe/Porochaz and UT/CDB. The two players who were around the least this game. And before that, Mert, who also wasn't around. He bases a few of his accusations around how people treat UT. Calling them scum for "persecuting" and "misinterpreting" him.

2) In addition to finding two players scummy for persecuting UT/CDB, he found three players scummy for persecuting Ecto. That's five players he went after for going after sketchy "townies". (If inHim is scum, it really looks like CDB is town.) It's possible he just somehow got a great read off UT in those three posts of UT's. It's possible he got a good read off Ecto. It's possible UT is scum and this is a bad inHim read, or that it's blatant defense of a scumpartner, but those feel less likely. But to find the three primary attackers of Ecto all scummy is over the top, to base day-or-two-long reads of Mert and Flameaxe primarily off of their reasons for voting UT, who for all we know could be scum, is unusual, and it seems to fit a pattern.

3) He seemed to push/support/be interested in claims from three players he thought were town at the time. Ecto, CDB, Yos.

I like it, Ecto. Tailing.

unvote
vote: CES

I think you're in claim range gogogo.

(I think you're asking Ecto for a claim there and not joking with CES. And you were sold on Ecto as town and thought Yos and I were scum persecuting him.)

When CDB shows up and claims something, if you all believe it let's lynch Gurgi.

(Again, pushing the claim idea on someone you have repeatedly said is frustrated town.)

Foremost, I was voting for a claim from Yos. And it wasn't like my suspicion of him from Day 1 had simply evaporated.

(Supporting a claim from someone you just said gets more and more town by the post.)
(Note: I think a few other players may have asked for claims from all three, or 2/3.)

4) Gurgi-Yos-MBL retrofit triple scumpair, a giant post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2659509 when Ecto's claim made inHim look like the most likely lynch. It's a terrible post, essentially smearing three names together and hoping something sticks. And it appeared to have been an attempt to justify his previous comment on {MBL-Gurgi-Yos} and to justify his wagon vote on MBL. It didn't feel like he really found me scummy--he just needed a reason to vote me under the gun. There's no logic behind the post if you reread it. It feels like a retrofit--he read the posts by the three players and tried to find something that would stick them together. Porochaz's drunky comment rang a bell with me. "slushy snowballs".
(Note: his observation that Yos didn't list MBL/Gurgi in his reads was a good one, it was something I noticed at the time as well, and I have a little trouble seeing scum reading carefully enough to spot that. My thought at the time is that I was getting heat, and Yos didn't want to get dirty by association by defending me. I saw that as a little dodgy by Yos, but I could see chicken town doing that as well. For me to see inHim as scum, I'd have to say he lucked out in the process of trying to smear me together with two other town or with one/two of his scumpartners.)

5) Insinuated that the following people are scum today:
DGB, CES, MBL, Shanba, Yos, Gurgi, Porochaz, Glork, chamber
no comment on these players that I noted: CTD, huck, ythill
town: stark/Ether, CDB

That's a pretty broad target-splatter for those slushy snowballs, and not much depth to any of the accusations.

6) To find me scummy, say it's a frame-job and say that I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing for pointing out his flip-flop on Yos just doesn't feel like an honest reaction from inHim. It just doesn't. I see a bunch of little white lies like that in his play. I have trouble seeing town playing like that. It feels like bad acting.

7) Lil too much enthusiasm for the Mert lynch.

It bothers me a little that some of the people who've previously found inHim townish are pretty quiet. CTD, could really use your insight here. Huck, you're putting it all back on me, and that's scummy--what's your independent read? Ether, need some original thought from you on inHim, not sheeping. CDB, looking forward to your promised post. Porochaz, any chance that inHim throws slushy snowballs as town? CES, anything besides inHim's Yos vote bother you about him? You were fine with his D1 play, and so was I to some extent, or I'd have jumped on his wagon at the end of yesterday.

Note, I tried to see inHim as town. I really just about can't. This is close to how I feel:

He's a hobo with a tin foil hat screaming about he really knows the truth. Almost all his posts are one-liners while he simultaneously hawks the lynch of lurkers when IMHO he is the only active lurker this game has, and those are so much worse. He has some glaring exceptions to that trend, but for the most part all he does is pop up whenever I say anything and calls me scum, or CTD, or whoever else makes a post near the time when he posts. It's not substantive and it's not even remotely logical. I'm sarcastic, so when I post something in a sarcastic fashion then I'm scum. He's skirting by being 'active' and expressing enough suspicion that it satisfies enough people he isn't yet swinging. Then when he gets off CDB's wagon he says he expects him to be town after all. The guy is just scum. I don't know how you can not see this.

[MrBuddyLee]

5) Insinuated that the following people are scum today:
DGB, CES, MBL, Shanba, Yos, Gurgi, Porochaz, Glork, chamber
no comment on these players that I noted: CTD, huck, ythill
town: stark/Ether, CDB

BOOOOOO

CTD, HH, and Ythill I do believe I listed them as pretty solid town D1. Ythill is worrying me, but I'm not going to bother my town reads too much if they stick to acceptable play.

I've also recanted the DGB accusation after a brief flash of paranoia involving her and Glork. I don't really remember saying much about chamber.

So, by my posts, would anyone not agree that I've sorted out the players something like this?

Town
CTD, HH, Ether, CDB, DGB
Baby Bump Below
Ythill, chamber
We can MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET IN THE MIDDLE
Yos, Glork, Shanba
For Killing
CES, MBL, Gurgi, Porochaz

MBL is full of it. FULL OF IT.

And by it I mean shit.

I've read my face off trying to tell whether your fairly lazy posting is possibly lazy town. I'm not tunneling. And I'm not full of shit. If you can't tell that from my posts, you're not paying attention. Also, think about it. If I was scum, I'd have buried you yesterday when I was in danger. Not the most reliable of town tells, I admit, but I hadn't spent much time focusing on you or asking you questions. Your play yesterday was fair enough--you gave a full town/scumlist and made a few bold calls in other posts. (Flameaxe, Ecto, Glork, Fritz, Huck, MBL, Mert, Gurgi.) You were active and forthcoming to an extent, and I thought you deserved another day of look-see.

Can you please go into a little detail about your thoughts on Shanba, Glork, chamber, Ythill and Huck? I only see one comment from you on Huck, and it's nonspecific. I see your retraction on chamber, but not much else. Nothing on Shanba besides an association with me. Not much on Glork besides associations with DGB and Yos. Not much on Ythill besides a retraction of something followed by your flat towncall on him yesterday.

I don't have a huge problem with your Flameaxe call (obviously I suspect you may be busing a lurking partner.) I'm confused by your CDB towncall. It seemed to be firm when UT posted his 10th post and disappeared, and then solidifed early today when he lurked followed by the wagon on him. They've each made one decent-sized analysis post, got replaced, lurked/inactived a bunch, and have about 25 total posts. How did/do you manage to differentiate CDB and Flameaxe so easily?

What do you see as the most compelling evidence against Yos?

[MrBuddyLee]

Differentiating UT/CDB and Flameaxe/Porochaz has to do with the fact that Flameaxe put up a really weak attempt to bandwagon UT, tried to back out of it without taking his vote off, and then made a horrendously vague analysis post.

Flameaxe never tried to back out of his UT vote.

[MrBuddyLee]

Back out of the reasoning, not the vote. 'Twas vague.

It wasn't vague:

Agreeing with CTD here, your vote didn't feel like shameless bandwagoning to me. The fact that you're torn between two players doesn't exactly shout out joke vote.

Vote: Untrod

.

UT: This really has no form of joking in it at all. Show me where it is, because I'm not seeing it at all.

Seems I misread CTD's post, so you have me there. However, I still stand by everything else I said here regarding the joke vote. Do you have any other issues here other than my agreement with CTD?

I don't really see how it would, given I made my points afterwords anyway, and those points ended up being unique anyway. My point was that using a point that I was "following" CTD doesn't really make sense given that.

@inhim: Sure, whatever. Except the part where I pointed out my own qualms about UT's play IN THE SAME POST, and funny enough, they completely went against what CTD said. If what you seem to be proposing was what happened, I wouldn't still be voting UT. I am because I still stand by the points that I made. In the end, the reason I'm on the UT wagon still is because of those points, and if you actually noticed, have nothing to do with CTD's case.

The only thing he backed out on was that he said he misread CTD. He stood firmly by the fact that he didn't think it was a joke vote or shameless bandwagoning, Flameaxe claimed to see intent behind it.

If anything, I'd ding him there for the lazy misread/possible suckup to CTD. I totally agreed that UT's "joke" comment was out of place.

Do you read something there in Flameaxe's words that I'm missing? If so, please be more specific, because I'm having trouble "getting" it.

[MrBuddyLee]

I had an early gut-read of InHim as scum, but looking through his day 1 posts, I felt he was more likely town.

Was there a reason you never mentioned your early gut read of inHim as scum? You mentioned Ythill, Yos, UT as varying degrees of slightly scummy over that period of time, and mentioned slight town/nullreads on 2-3 others. I don't see anything from you on inHim in November or pre-Ectoclaim besides agreement on an inHim read of Yos.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well, at least I've provided some good moments. [/dramadramadrama]

/salute

[MrBuddyLee]

unvote

Let's get everyone fully on the record here. Right now I'm in favor of an inHim lynch and I'm not sure if he was threatening to hammer town or bussing a scumpartner when he flopped on Yos. I'll read back to see who's expressed their Yos-lynch preference over inHim clearly, but I'd like more details from you guys on why inHim's not scummy and Yos is.

[MrBuddyLee]

EBWOP: It really doesn't look like they're scum together. I don't think scumHim would have defended scumYos down to the wire by calling him "more and more likely town" etc etc like I've posted previously. Yos kinda looked like a goner at the time.

[MrBuddyLee]

I can't prove it, but the main motivation behind this was to rally a Gurgiwagon.

Weird way to go about it. Until the past hour or so, the sum of your presented evidence on Gurgi today has been:

Does no one else see through Gurgi's flattery and appeal to popularity(or rather, to popular figures)?

Why not make a better case or ask him for opinions on other players so you can draw scumlinks to him?

Now under Glorkquestioning about your Gurgicase, you've appended:

It's been based off a whole lot of gut and tea leaves. But really, early posting led me to believe he was more concerned about the players and not their roles. Then we get in this big argument that doesn't leave me any convinced that he was attacking me in a pro-town manner, and around this time is where he tries to deflect a lot of what I say through mockery. The recurring avoidance of saying

anything

of consequence to Yos while he was perfectly fine arguing with me smacked of scum picking their fights yet again. I have nowhere near the reputation as Yos, thus it's OK for Gurgi to hate on me and think I'm scum. I drew up a big love triangle between Yos, Gurgi, and MBL, though

I'm not quite sure if two of them are scum anymore

.[digression]But now, man, now that I think of that, it makes me want to vote Yos just a little bit more.[/digression] He also likes to eat Italian and dress in pinstripes.

And when giving your reasoning for wanting to lynch Gurgi who you are pretty sure is scum, you express a desire to take down Yos instead. If you're that sure about Yos, and that sure about Gurgi, then two of "them" ARE scum. You're not being consistent here. You also kind of seem to be implying that Gurgiscum was sucking up to Yostown, because you say it's Yos's reputation and your lack thereof that makes you Gurgi's target. Not that they're scumpartners and that's why they laid off each other.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, tell me what you think about Gurgi, and the evidence I have presented.

First, my impressions of Gurgi:

His http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2649309
kicks your http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2654724
all the way up and down the street.

I think his points were on the money about you, with a few caveats.

* Your vote/unvote on CTD was weird, and you said you were wary at the time that CTD's scumpartners "successfully defused" the wagon by stirring up suspicion elsewhere. Yet you hopped off CTD, helping them defuse? BS.
* Your case on Flameaxe was not "nothing" as Gurgi said. It was saying "BBM wouldnt misread CTD as town" and "BBM's stalling", which is pretty weak. You also said BBM's vote on UT was poor, but you didn't ever really explain why the stated reason "it didn't look like a joke or a pure wagon" was a bad reason for BBM to vote UT. Later, you hit him for a "vacuous" list of reads, which is fair but nonspecific. Gurgi was wrong to say your BBM case was nothing.
* He was spot-on about your comment that it's silly to ask Ecto for reads if you think Ecto is scum.
* It was fair of him, if a bit of a stretch, to say you were limiting D1 content when you said "who are we to judge people's D1 reads".
* It was accurate of him, and pro-town, to characterize the differences between the two of your styles of posting. I don't think he's been incredibly effective, as he more gives opinions than makes cases. But what he says generally makes sense, whereas what you say generally makes me reach for the Tylenol.

I don't like this post of Gurgi's:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2678636
which follows Gurgi's vote on chamber. It's like your near-vote on Yos--an attempt to get someone lynched who's not really up there on his list.

I don't like his over-the-top pragmatism. He says at one point that his top four suspects (inHim, DGB, Ythill, Yos) won't get lynched so he's compromising on chamber. Early in the day, I'm not a fan of that play.

Gurgi's stated reason for having Ythill top four is terrible, imo, unless I've missed a reason. I see "null read of mine says I'm town. that's troubling."

Don't like the #2 reason why he wouldn't push Yos D1--"they're valuable players and bad D1 lynches" is ok but "i'd lose the argument so I won't try unless it's a great case" is worse.

I like his approach to the CDB-wagon: "why waste the time if he's V/LA?" (unless CDB is scum, obv.)

This post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2684064 feels super-townish.

This response http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2685980 to my questioning is pretty ok. Feels natural.

Net slight town read from me. You asked:

MBL, tell me what you think about Gurgi, and the evidence I have presented.

The evidence you've presented has

sucked balls

been weak-to-nonexistent by-and-large, and for whatever reason you didn't seem to notice any of the things I find most questionable about Gurgi. Did you miss them/skim over them/leave them for now when reading the first time, like I did?

Also, eek:
Porochaz (1) -- , inHimshallibe
Yosarian2 (2) -- Shanba, Ythill
inHimshallibe (2) -- Lord Gurgi, ChannelDelibird
chamber (1) -- Yosarian2
Cogito Ergo Sum () -- ,
Ythill (1) -- Porochaz
Shanba (2) -- , Cogito Ergo Sum, , HackerHuck
DGB 1 CTD
CDB (3) Glork DGB chamber

Faced with this votecount:

Gurgi defends CDB, in a probable simulpost with the newly-formed CDB wagon. Interestingly, Gurgi and inHim agree that CDB is a bad wagon.

Could have voted Yos to take him to 3 but instead votes chamber to 2 instead alongside Yos's chamber vote. Later explanation:

Yos and Ythill are both probably-ish scum, but I don't expect those wagons to go anywhere is the problem.

So why join a chamber wagon alongside Yos? Terrible "compromise" to abandon your #2 suspect to vote your #5 suspect alongside your #2 suspect.
chamber (2) -- Yosarian2, Lord Gurgi
doesn't look so great.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, the people on the not-voting list should be ashamed of themselves.

pfft

[MrBuddyLee]

Because I want to see what others are going to do. Shanba made his position clear--he switched from inHim is likely scum to inHim is likely(100%) town in the middle of D2.

I've made my position on inHim pretty clear--I think there's a small chance he's town, but more likely he's scum. Nurse gambit looked scummy to me, his flip on Yos looked scummy earlier today, his arguments have been poor. If he's right about Gurgi being scum he's never made the case and I've found better evidence than he's ever posted. It doesn't feel like inHim is a scumhunter, thus he's probably scum.

I'm willing to lynch him today, and I think I'd prefer him lynched over Yos, who appears to be the only other alternative. I don't think Yos has looked super town this game, but something about his tone struck me as townish when he was on the block.

Yosarian2 (3) -- Glork, CrashTextDummie, Ythill
inHimshallibe (7) -- ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, HackerHuck, Yosarian2, Porochaz
Lord Gurgi (2) -- inHimshallibe, DrippingGoofball

Not voting: Ether, Shanba, MrBuddyLee

Of the people not on inHim, DGB's stated flatly she thinks inHim is town as has Shanba (she flipped when I made my big post on inHim Dec 26th but went back in a day or two to inHim is strong town). DGB also says flatly that Yos is town. Ether and Ythill said they're willing to lynch inHim but haven't done so. I think CTD and Glork both said inHim looks townish based on the way he's played this close to his lynch, and CTD's had a consistent read on inhim most of the game while Glork has wavered in the face of inHim's D2 play and due to the fact he was a Mert alternative. No one seems willing to stick their necks out to defend inHim aggressively besides DGB. CTD and Glork have pushed Yos as the better alternative. CTD's case seemed to be mostly that Yos was inconsistent by not pushing CDB as a lurker and said some odd things about CDB. CTD drew a possible DGB-Yos connection, and she is not pushing the Yos wagon at deadline even though she finds inHim pretty townish.

Of the people on inHim, Porochaz seems to strongly believe he's scum. Yos went from "he's town" to "he's scum" and this post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2697756 was a big tipping point. Yos thinks Glork is scum if inHim is. If Glork and Yos are scum together they've danced this dance well. CDB's been consistent on inHim as scum and thinks Yos is an unknown and possibly town playing the worst Yos town game ever. Gurgi's been consistent on inHim. chamber has wanted inHim dead all game including at deadline yesterday. Similar to Gurgi and CDB in that he doesn't post much evidence but has been consistent with his desire to see inHim lynched. Huck went from gut scum inHim early D1 to inHim townish near lynch D1 to inHim scummy for his fakeclaim and for the general play around end of day today. Wants to know why DGB sees inHim as so townish--same question I have. CES has been pretty lazy but wanted inHim dead at deadline yesterday and again today. Thinks Yos is looking more townish.

Lots of info, but obviously the proof's in the pudding. Who's willing to lynch?

[MrBuddyLee]

I took my vote off a few days back so I could watch and see what activity we got. We didn't really get a whole lot, but it was better than nothing. Ether and CDB really copped out. Shanba said he was rethinking Yos and unvoted--bizarre. We got a sizeable Porochaz post which was a plus info-wise. Ythill has danced. Shanba didn't step in to defend inHim despite thinking him 100% town. Glork said he's conflicted on inHim and bizarrely added CTD to his scumlist. Huck went after inHim fairly aggressively, and inHim drew some scum pairings. There's more but I'm not going to ramble. Are we close to deadline?

If I am dead tomorrow, and if inHim comes up town, you townies need to step up and play the best ball you can so the scum become the primary lynch targets. If inHim comes up scum I think we're ok regardless, especially if we have a cop.

[MrBuddyLee]

Oh, nevermind, deadline's tomorrow. 25 hours from now, right?

[MrBuddyLee]

Explain this discrepancy, MBL:

CES, anything besides inHim's Yos vote bother you about him? You were fine with his D1 play, and so was I to some extent, or I'd have jumped on his wagon at the end of yesterday.

CES has been pretty lazy but wanted inHim dead at deadline yesterday and again today.

You didn't mention inHim until you voted him, so I imagine you were somewhat fine with him up until that point yesterday. You were willing to lynch him though, particularly over me as the other option at the time--you put him at 5-4 inHim/MBL I think and you only switched to Mert when it was 7-4 Mert/inHim and likely the only viable lynch. The more recent comment was in the context of showing people's clear intent. You're one of the people being clear about who you want lynched today, and there's another evidence point from yesterday to suggest that you're probably not scum if inHim comes up scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

My addition of CTD probably looks bizarre, but it's because he is playing bizarrely. His questioning of whether I "know" who the scums are, just because I referred to Yosscum and Shanscum as "known scum" doesn't really make any sense. I bluntly and factually state that people are scum all the time... I'd say easily in 80% of the games I play. CTD

knows

this, and I know he knows this, so I'm trying to figure out what in Glork's name has caused him that *this* time is different. IIRC, he had some suspicions of me during D1, so I'm wondering if it's a case of confirmation bias, but I'd really like an explanation on this one and tbh, I've been pretty underwhelmed by CTD's play thus far.

Yes, I was talking more about the specific context of your FOS--he just seemed to be asking you to clarify that you thought Yos and Shanba were the obvscum. I just iso'd CTD and he has not really driven the case on Yos nor defended inHim stridently. I'll paste the post I was starting to make here:


Obviously not everyone who is NOT pushing cases they believe in right now is scum. But part of mafia is figuring out WHY people aren't pushing those cases.

CTD, you're voting Yos and think inHim is likely town. You've given nearly no defense of inHim in the past three weeks other than "he's not playing this the way scum would." You think DGB is more likely scum than Yos. You think they're a likely scumpair together. You're not making the case, and you seem to be satisfied with the clock running out on inHim instead of pushing Yos by rereading him and making a more solid case. Why?

Shanba, you unvoted to consider whether or not Yos is scum. You didn't take any time to defend inHim but you don't think he's scum. You don't appear to have an alternative suspect to Yos should you decide magically that he is now townish. Maaaaybe Ythill but you've hedged that. Maaaaaybe Flameaxe for lurking but you hedged that. You've defended me, Glork, inHim, chamber, CTD. You left DGB off but later said you have a townread on her. You say CDB is a scumread because he's lurked and because CTD's case is good. You say the blindspot on Flameaxe is sinister and that people who were on CDB's wagon should read up on Flameaxe. My paranoia says one is scum and one is town and you know which is which. You have Huck as lurking scum. It feels like you're going after the lurkers, and Yos. You definitely need to clarify your thoughts on Yos now before the day ends.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: inHim

[MrBuddyLee]

Look back at his D1. His attitude towards Ecto is sensible, and instead of taking an easy mislynch on inHim, MBL, etc., he went after someone else. I think the scums were middling to late on the Mertwagon (making him the only potential lynch candidate), not the people who started it.

I came up with this independently and consider Huck semi-clear for it. Why take the heat for the late switch? It's a brilliant and bold play if he's scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Doing this by memory.

Day one, nothing got serious until we started going after Ecto. Two townies (Yos and me) and stark. Scum were thrilled, because they figured Ecto would dig himself deeper and town would get in trouble for pressing him. Not much to be lost there, so they registered weak support or weak opposition and placed safe votes there or elsewhere. No need to rock major boat with the Ecto thing supported by Yos AND MBL.

Near-deadline, Ecto claimed. Scum felt the wind and quickly saw Ecto wasn't going down. The next three candidates were townies. MBL, Yos, inHim. Gold! They had ZERO incentive to push anything, so they checked out. All choices would ultimately make them look bad in the long run, so they either tried to agree with an existing townie on the case or they picked a scumpartner off the main wagons.

Mertwagon came up last second as an alternative to two townie-wagons. Town saw inHim and MBL as town and jumped at it. Scum said "no thanks" or "sure, whatever, looks safe." There was literally no incentive for them to do anything here. They were bored to tears and slavering away waiting for their chance to kill Ecto. It seems most D1 cases were town against town, with the possible exceptions of Huck on Mert and Glork on MBL. Overnight, scum probably resolved to do better so they wouldn't get nabbed in endgame for being the lazy people.

Day two, Ecto, Fritz and Mert came up town. Scum thanked god for the vig's bad luck/judgement and went to work trying to identify the vig. Shanba and CDB were early wagons. CDB got out of his by doing nothing. Shanba got out of his with a post against Yos, I believe. MBL made posts on Yos and inHim and got support on both cases. Scum had cover, as MBL might get shit D3 for starting a townie Ectowagon and a townie Yos/inHim wagon back to back. So they piped down and let things happen. The day ended up becoming a Yos-inHim referendum, and scum laid low knowing a vig might target them if they looked too scummy. Scum could look good by being on either Yos or inHim with conviction, or by being on someone else.

D3, scum probably figures they're close to LOL if they can kill off the vig. Overnight, they discussed whether to try to win it powerfully, with cases on townies, or by busing each other gently today so worst-case scenario, if one goes down, the rest look good and the win is still ensured.

Not proofreading this. Off the top of my head, it makes me suspicious of good players who aren't making aggressive cases. I made cases on three townies and it feels like they've been used by scum to coast. My guess is that if town is eating town, scum will see that as an opportunity to make weak cases on scumpartners to be crowed about later. Obviously, another solid strat is to lurk if town is eating town.

I've given this game minimal thought since inHim flipped. I think it's lame that so many scum are (probably) lurking.

[MrBuddyLee]

Huck, it's cool that you're taking a different approach to find scum. Whatever people have been doing hasn't been working. But it's impossible to get a read on you if you just play the odds based on where scum are likely or not likely to be. Would love to see more from you like:

What may be more important is that Ythill is calling Yos' lack of voting trail scummy while not being so concerned about MBL's.

even if you're wrong, it gives more info on you. And we need more info on everyone.

What do you guys think about asking everyone to answer the following question:

"How is my play as scum different from my play in this game?"

I'll start by answering. I think when I'm scum, I lock in more firmly on "beliefs"--I'm paranoid about being seen as an inconsistent switcher. I'm not really good at flip-flopping in a realistic manner. So I think as scum I'm more likely to pick out "good guys" and "bad guys" and lock those beliefs in. I also have a bad tendency to clear too many players as scum. In a game on another site a few months back, I was stuck near endgame with three scumpartners and a bunch of townies I'd semi-cleared because I figured everyone else saw them as obvtown for various reasons and I'd look bad by bucking the trend.

[MrBuddyLee]

Both have made big, well-argued scum cases on a couple of people (inHim and Yos, IIRC) which made me more willing to vote said people and they're liable to do it again at some stage, so I think it's pretty important that I examine how much I can afford to trust them.

You were the one who tried to persuade me to vote inHim. Repeatedly. Didn't you feel strongly that he was scum all game long?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ythill, what's your take on Glork's D1/D2 play if you assume correctly that I am town?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm the Cop. I investigated MBL as innocent N1, and HH as innocent last night.

Does your role PM guarantee your sanity?

[MrBuddyLee]

On first read, Glork's play makes sense from a cop perspective, except for his overly strident post to Ether about Shanba, which seems to telegraph a result he doesn't have. CTD's play seems consistent with his claim--his worldview D2 was shaped by his conviction that Shanba was town. Need to get more in-depth on these boys' play.

Let's spend some time finding scum today rather than deciding right away which cop we should trust. We need reads on everyone, and not just reads based on which guy they think is the cop.

Ythill, what do you say you, Huck and I work together? Even if Glork is scum, it's a stretch to believe he would attempt to clear two scumpartners with a fakeclaim. I'm not scum, and I had a slight town-to-neutral read on Huck. I think you're probably town, so perhaps we can start talking this through. I assume we'll all (you, me, Huck) be here for another day and a half, as there are now cops for scum to shoot at.

[MrBuddyLee]

An MBL lynch is a compromise I am willing to make.

Details, please.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, why'd you ask Glork about his sanity when he had an innocent on you? Were you really worried about naivety? What were you thinking about HackerHuck?

By the way, you might want to actually answer me.

I was joking around because Glork and I have so much fun being on opposite sides, and because he seemed so convinced I was scum earlier this game. I was also saddened at the time by the waste of a cop investigation on me, plus saddened by becoming a publicly confirmed townie.

So you have no play-based reasons for wanting me lynched, Ether? That's super, duper, ooper lame and probably at least a little scummy.

I'm not saying that I believe both cops are really cops, I'm just saying that on first read, they both played D2 like cops with the results they claim to have.

[MrBuddyLee]

All of the following quotes were written by Glork, about MBL, after he supposedly investigated him as innocent. There were others where Glork was pressuring MBL, but didn't state or imply suspicion, so I left them out.

...

It's interesting that the cop crumbs and whatnot seemed to start D2 and Glork definately went into N2 knowing that he was going to claim to have investigated HH.

Most of the Glork posts you cited seem reasonable coming from a cop with a result. He yelled at me for not voting, he asked Huck about an unusual omission of Huck's, poked me about removing my vote from inHim, and he questioned me legitimately about my day-early hammer yesterday. It's possible that he's scum faking it, but it looks somewhat like a cop with a result who doesn't want to get spotted turning on a dime right away. You have to admit, he doesn't really have any other obvious reason for his flip on me from Dec. 6th to Dec. 11th.

Look at his posts on the 11th.

I'm pretty sure that one of the prior alternate wagons {MBL, inHim, Yos} was scum.

And then he proceeds to consider voting inHim and Yos but doesn't remotely consider voting me, his top D1 suspect. And then he votes Shanba. On the 18th he calls me out: "Man up and start hunting scum." On the 22nd: "MBL: Not all that likely to be scum." On the 24th: "MBL is spewing nonsense" but doesn't call me scummy for it. On the 26th: "100% town = Glork, MBL, DGB, Chamber, Ythill" It's pretty clear he is either a cop or made the overnight decision to fake cop with a result on MBL/Shanba. He made his transition on me look gradual, which is what you'd expect from a savvy cop.

CTD did the same thing. Started casually D2 mentioning that he forgot why he suspected Shanba. That, after having Shanba at about 80% likelihood of scum in the last week of D1. Then, three days later, CTD uses the fast-building Shanbawagon as a tool to solidify his switch to Shanba=town. The transition is complete on the 22nd: "PS: I don't condone the vigging of Shanba under any circumstances."

[MrBuddyLee]

My concern that Glork was setting up a possible fake result on either of Shanba/MBL is somewhat lessened by CTD's claim of an innocent on Shanba. It really looked like Glork set up a future Shanba=scum Glorkcopclaim in that post where he said Shanba was definitely scum three times. But if paranoia says Glork is scum with a scumPartnerPositive on Shanba, then CTD would have to be insane/naive/scum as well with his innocent on Shanba. I suppose they could both be scum setting us up for scumShanba = confirmed town when evil fakecop Glork dies. But meh, that's convoluted.

I suppose we could have two scumteams, each with a freakin cop for the opposite team. Which would make Ythill possible scum. But I don't really see that as incredibly likely.

[MrBuddyLee]

Not likely town - it just became likelier. I got the feeling that Glrok was bussing Shanba based on behaviour and Glrok's other suspects flipping town which according to sample calculations gave Shanba a 2/3rds chance of being scum if Glrok was.

I also had the sense at one point that Glork might have been busing Shanba. This is a town perspective by CES. I'm not sure about the quick Glork vote though. CES, are you that sure Glork is full of it?

I get a lot of townish reads from CES's posts this game. I also thought inHim and Ecto were possible scum, so whatever.

[MrBuddyLee]

Not likely town - it just became likelier. I got the feeling that Glrok was bussing Shanba based on behaviour and Glrok's other suspects flipping town which according to sample calculations gave Shanba a 2/3rds chance of being scum if Glrok was.

So when you said:

2) If Glrok isn't scum, then there's still a good chance of Shanba being scum on account of Glrok being a good scumhunter.

Because either Glrok is town and I should sheep him or he's scum and he's likely bussing Shanba (Yos flipping town being relevant here) combined with an absence of town tells.

you basically meant that you had a rock solid Glork+Shanba read but that if Glork came up town Shanba was still likely scum, just less likely?

What's your read on Shanba's play, independent of anything Glork's done?

[MrBuddyLee]

What do you guys think about asking everyone to answer the following question:

"How is my play as scum different from my play in this game?"

Answered: Glork, MBL, Gurgi, Ether, CES, Ythill
Did not answer: CDB, CTD, Porochaz, chamber, Huck, Shanba

Ether, this kind of flip-flop got inHim lynched:

MBL is...probably also town as well.

An MBL lynch is a compromise I am willing to make.

If you are town, please don't play sloppily.

[MrBuddyLee]

I changed my mind after rethinking stuff in light of a fuckton of claims and new information. You can portray it how you like, but it's pretty stupid to write something like that off that way.

You changed your "opinion" of me from likely town to the most likely scum. Based entirely on setup speculation.

[MrBuddyLee]

What I'm trying to get across is that as a townie, I am looking for inconsistencies. Your willingness to vote me now based

solely

on the perfect storm (and incorrect) speculation of "Glork is an an insane cop, Crash is a sane 1-shot cop, Huck and MBL are scum" after finding me "probably town" recently is disturbing. But as inHim so recently proved with his fakeclaim and quick flipflop on Yos, townies can do the zaniest things.

Prove to me via your play today that your terrible flip-flop isn't scummy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Trying to make sure I have a handle on your reads, Ether:

* Glork = town because he sucks this game. pure meta.
* Shanba = town because of http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2676637 pure meta.
* Ythill = town because of his behavior around Ecto, etc.
* CTD =

scum because he's not the vig you thought he was

town because cop counterclaim
* Huck = scum because ?
* MBL = scum because setup speculation, vote mbl

Ether, I see you've decided Shanba is town based on tone/meta. You switched your opinion based on one post of his that did almost no scumhunting. Fine. But you've stated flatly that Huck is scum while giving absolutely no evidence to support it. While asking others repeatedly to provide evidence and opinions on Huck. After a post a while back when you said Huck tends to get lynched a lot as town despite being absolutely right about everything.

So please elaborate upon why you feel he's scum. And why CTD and Glork are both town. ffs, you found Crash scummy yesterday at 6pm and suddenly you believe his counterclaim of a cop you've felt all game is town? You thought Crash was town when you thought he was the vig but then he was scum because he wasn't the vig but now he's not scum because he's a cop. aargh, there's almost no actual evaluation of players' votes or suspicions from you in this game. It's all setup speculation and meta. Very hard to read. Your level of interest and participation is high, which I see as townish. But yeah, why's Huck scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.

Unvote, vote: Glork

Still reading, though.

It doesn't read to me like Glork's insinuating I'm scum there. Maybe I'm overreading it, but I don't see any MBL-lynch intent from Glork whatsoever D2. I see him as spotting an omission from Huck on a player Glork knows the alignment of, and wondering why Huck might make such a slip.

It kind of boggles my mind to think that as scum, Glork would so obviously set up a cop claim/result overnight (innocent on MBL N1) and very clearly telegraph it all day D2, yet somehow manage to slip up and show suspicion of MBL in his first post of the day?

[MrBuddyLee]

Okay, lots of inconsistencies, a cop claim with a counter claim and my previous post on him.

vote Glork

Can you please specify which inconsistencies you're talking about here?

[MrBuddyLee]

Talking about cops is boring. Ether, why Huck? Porochaz, what inconsistencies? Shanba, how's your play different in this game than you play as scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: CDB

[MrBuddyLee]

Reasons for CDB's votes:

Dec 3rd inHim: Cites Shanba and Gurgi, says he agrees with their posts attacking inHim. scumtheory: possible town cover for CDB's vote on a townie.
Dec 7 Mert to get a lynch, follows HackerHuck, Ythill, DrippingGoofball, inHimshallibe, Ectomancer
D2
Dec 14th inHim: Because the nightkills didn't make inHim look any clearer, cites Ythill as he votes.
Dec 23rd: says the inHim vote needs re-evaluation but never re-evaluates
D3
Jan 8th: HackerHuck for not pushing his Ether suspicions aggressively enough. joins ether and gurgi on Huck.
Jan 9th: says his inHim vote that contributed to the lynch was a placeholder
Jan 11th: Glork -- instinct + for reverse breadcrumb of MBL. joins CTD and Ythill on Glork.

CDB, I'd like to know how you feel about all players, first off HackerHuck, Ether and Glork who you've recently mentioned. Do you want Huck to push Ether harder because you think Ether is scum, or do you think his lack of firm suspicions and/or opinions on other players is what's suspect? Note--you also lack firm suspicions and have expressed no opinions of most players.

Also, your opinions of CES, chamber, Ythill and Poro, who you haven't mentioned.

Also, your opinion of CTD, who was the only person you left off of your analysis of everyone upon entering the game. You haven't mentioned your opinion of him at all this game.

Also, your opinion of Gurgi who you haven't mentioned since calling him town December 3rd.

Also, why have you seen Shanba as town all game long? You never said.

Scumtheory: CDB has been hiding amidst town. Joined Gurgi and Shanba on inHim. Joined Gurgi, Ythill, chamber on inHim. Joined Ether, Ythill, Gurgi on Huck. Joined Ythill and CTD on Glork. Pure sheeping, no initiative, seems to find reasons to fit the event after deciding where his vote should go.

I need to read a few other players in this light. I'm sure CDB isn't the only one who fits this mold. But this mold looks scummy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hi, MBL. Who's scum? What have you concluded from all the selfmetas you've gotten from people (especially mine, obv)?

CDB looks like very likely scum. It is possible he's the world's laziest, most useless town. But I kind of feel I see a malicious pattern there. I want to read the other lurkers with the same approach to see if they all come up the same, or if CDB's scumminess is relatively unique amongst them. Off the top of my head, CES has shown much more curiosity and awareness, Porochaz has made more of an effort to give rounded views, and chamber and Gurgi have had tones from time to time that have seemed townish. They can't all be town, but they all feel more townish to me than CDB. His first post struck me ok at the time, but as time goes on and flips happen and alignments become clearer, it's looking more and more like he's working the crowd more than trying to catch scum.

It concerns me that there are two cop claims and that CDB happened to leave CTD off his analysis list, but that's crap to go on. His quick hop on Glork for a fairly terrible reason is super sketchy. Really, CTD's play has been mediocre but his play matches his claim to an extent. Glork has played alternatingly poor and ok, and his claim also fits his play, albeit a little less. I can potentially see Patrick giving scum and town powers here--for example 1 1/2 cops for town, and one scumteam member with two bonus nightkills (Hi, Ythill.) and a scum rolecop to track down those cops fast. (Hi, one of you lurking scum.) But that feels awfully swingy, and you'd think he'd have given us less goofy stuff and more basics so he could fully appreciate our scumhunting.

I'll refrain from analyzing the self-metas aloud until a few more people have responded. It's notable that the non-respondents are a scummier looking sampling than the respondents. It's probably a fairly scary question for scum to answer, so they're avoiding it.

[MrBuddyLee]

My play may have been mediocre, MBL, but my scumhunting sure as hell hasn't been. Glork is scum and so are CDB and Porochaz in all likelihood.

I think you're overstating a bit there. You did mention that those were your top three suspects at the start of today, but you haven't presented any evidence to support your beliefs re: Porochaz and CDB. Your argument that Glork has pushed crap wagons for crap reasons is decent--he clearly made lame attempts D1 to pin Ecto on me in various ways that seemed beyond the pale. But you abandoned your push on him and CDB around Christmas yesterday. Sure, we all have our eyes on those guys, but I feel like to differentiate scumhunting from scumbussing we need to see cases from you. (Until you flip dead cop, that is, and I suppose the timing of your claim is more convincing than Glork's and it'd be huge balls for both of you to claim as scum knowing there might be a real cop in the game. If Glork is off his game, then maybe he really did discuss "known scum" yesterday and your spot was legit.)

Granted there's not much to work with in either case, but I'm interested to hear more specifically about how you differentiate CDB/Poro's play from CES's, Gurgi's, Ether's, Huck's, Shanba's and chamber's. (I suppose you can scratch Shanba considering you're claiming a result.)

You do get minor props for this post D1 if those three are scum:

CDB, DGB, Shanba, Glork, Flameaxe, Ythill. At least half those people are scum. Take your pick.

I'm in no position to take the initiative on this, as I'm very strapped for time until the end of the week.

unvote, vote: Ythill

But once again, it's easy for scum to toss their scumpartners in a bag with a few townies and then not really push the scum aggressively. I am not saying I think you're defScum here, I'm just saying that your play hasn't utterly convinced me that you're town and I'd like to see your recent thought processes on CDB and Porochaz.

Why do you think Glork claimed when he did?



I'm not lying when I say that Shanba's comment:

If glork is town, we're very close to just straight up winning this game.

gives me a touch of the creeps. We're down 6-0. It's either lazy thinking or he's scum who forgot to ratchet down his enthusiasm over being far in the lead. Why assume we have two town cops and three living confirmed town out of 12 who remain? Doesn't ring true. Possible godfather alert down the road.

Also creepy--that Porochaz analyzed dead players in his reread. I can see doing it in your head or on paper to get context, but posting it is weird.

[MrBuddyLee]

What's the point of this hypothetical? What you're saying is that my three top suspects coming up scum, including the guy I freaking counterclaimed, could still be a dastardly bus because I haven't "utterly convinced" you with my play. I'm having a really hard time taking you seriously. This goes for the whole "Glork and CTD could both be fakeclaming scum" line of thinking.

I'm just trying to eliminate possibilities. You+Glork making a glamorous co-cop gambit in a dash for fame. Glork's a cop who's played dreadfully and you decided a counterclaim would go over well enough to get him lynched. Obviously, the trainwreck that Glork has been this game implies that Glorkscum CTDtown is a much more reasonable assumption to make. I'm just looking for confirmation via your comments about your other top suspects. You really haven't said much about them D2/D3.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why Prozac instead of CDB?

[MrBuddyLee]

Why Prozac instead of CDB?

It's like...CDB just always seemed more on everyone's radar to me. That wagon that happened when Crash was trying to get a DGBwagon going instead because CDB was explicitly V/LA? Stuff like that.

Wait, Ether. You suspect CDB less because you think his wagon that you were on (and you were the last person to get OFF of) was sketchy? Going to need some explanation from you re: why the CDB wagon(s) have been suspect.

chamber (1) -- Yosarian2

CrashTextDummie

(1) -- IH

Ectomancer

(3) -- Ythill, stark, MrBuddyLee
Ythill (1) -- HackerHuck
Untrod Tripod (7) --

CrashTextDummie

, Flameaxe, chamber,

Mert

, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Fritzler

,

Glork

inHimshallibe

(2) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba

Mert

(1) -- inHimshallibe

Fritzler

(1) -- Untrod Tripod

Yosarian2

(3) -- Shanba, MrBuddyLee, Ythill

inHimshallibe

(2) -- ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi
ChannelDelibird (6) --

Glork

, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Ether

,

DrippingGoofball

,

CrashTextDummie

Shanba (1) -- HackerHuck
Lord Gurgi (1) -- inHimshallibe
Ythill (1) -- Porochaz

MrBuddyLee

(1) -- Yosarian2

Porochaz (2) --

CrashTextDummie

, inHimshallibe

Yosarian2

(2) -- Shanba, MrBuddyLee

inHimshallibe

(1) -- ChannelDelibird
chamber (2) -- Yosarian2, Lord Gurgi
ChannelDelibird (6) --

Glork

, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Ythill

,

Ether

,

DrippingGoofball

Shanba (1) -- HackerHuck

Ether, Ythill, Glork and CTD in green to better represent Ether's thinking if she is town. Why exactly are wagons with YOU, dead town, and all your trusted town on them sketchy? You must be fairly confident that chamber and CES are scum? You haven't really been discussing voting for them or pushing their lynches before tonight.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think HH and I are different here. I accept that I haven't given firm suspicions but HH did post what looked like a pretty firm suspicion on stark and never followed it up, which makes me think that the reason he posted it in the first place was not because he genuinely suspected stark but that he wanted to give a firm suspicion, particularly on someone who many people at the time were saying was obvtown, because it looked bold and unsheepish.

I had a very solid obvtown read on stark and Ether hasn't done anything to make me doubt that so far.

Glork I still feel is prolly scum. I don't really see both cop claims being true and I still think Glork's first post of Day 2 did not look like a cop with an innocent on you.

I can't really see Ythill being anything but what he says he is at this stage. Your suggestion of a double-killing scumteam member seems pretty farfetched to me, so I see no other explanation for the extra kill.

Prozac looks like he's trying hard to give us opinions as of late but I haven't got anything on him at the moment. CES and chamber I just find pretty fucking impossible to read, always have. I'll reread all three over the weekend.

(Gurgi) Still looks town to me. One of those people all of whose posts have seemed pretty reasonable, similar to you and Glork, but I've gone over the ones that have particularly influenced me, most regarding inHim, and I can't see anything wrong with them, so I have no reason to doubt my townread.

I'm sorry but I haven't really got anything for you other than gut. I haven't really understood the attacks that people have made on him(Shanba), and particularly the more emotional posts read very genuine to me. Never had any problems with his activity levels, either, but then I'd be a hypocrite if I did.

Who do you think the four scum are and why? Do they fit together as scumpartners when you analyze their interactions and votes?

[MrBuddyLee]

You're really not answering the question, Ether. What specifically about that CDB wagon you were on looks sketchy to you? Have you discounted the possibility that one or both of those two would be busing a weak/V/LA partner to gain cred? Is your position now that chamber was lying when he said "I have a scum meta on CDB and this is it"?

You seem to be the master of meta. Does chamber go exclusively after townies when he's scum?

People Im willing to lynch:

CDB

,

YTHILL

,

YOS

,

SHANBA

,

STARK

,

INHIM

.

mafia =

cdb

,

yos

,

inhim

,

shanba

sk =

Ythill

go meta

CDB

, not finding him scummy here is criminal.

green = town from Ether's POV

[MrBuddyLee]

Why are you pretending to suspect me when I'm the investigated innocent of the cop you are confident is town?

[MrBuddyLee]

lol

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on CDB

Unvote
Vote: UT
I'm not feeling the UT wagon. I would like to see more pressure on Ecto, especially in light of MBL's post
Aaaaand UT's vote on Fritzler is :badposting:. OMGUS to the max.
All things considered, I'm on the fence re: UT.
Vote stays on Ecto for now, but I would probably be willing to coax a claim out of UT.
"As far as not feeling the UT wagon, it is extremely lazy. A bit more lazy than I'd expect from this group of players, once we got out of the random bullshit stage. I have some minor misgivings about UT's behavior since garnering some pressure (in particular, I think CTD's "UT has clammed up" comment is right on the money), but it's not enough to convince me that he needs dead. If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon."
I would also prefer a Shanba lynch over a UT/CDB lynch, because (and this may sound stupid because of its metagaming nature) I think UT would have stayed around and kept superlurking if he were scum, rather than replacing out. Shanba fits the bill of Lurkerscum much more than UT/CDB.
Also, please explain this post, considering there are currently zero votes on CDB? Why are you attacking a bandwagon that doesn't actually exist?

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

@DGB: How's Glork doing so far, five days later? Right now his vote's on CDB, a lurker he doesn't think is scum based on a meta:

Again, you're using outdated information here. Shanba's defense of the nonexistent CDB-wagon (literally, there wasn't a single vote on CDB, and Shanba was blasting the lurkerhunt nature of the "wagon") is an extremely strong connection. Either Shanba is trying to earn superduperbrowniepoints by going "see, ITY he wasn't scum" when CDB does die, or he's trying to make sure that the wagon doesn't actually build (at least, not before CDB has a chance to actually participate in the game).

I would still strongly prefer a Shanbalynch over a CDBlynch, though.
I'm becoming less interested in a CDB lynch. It is more stagnant than the push against Shanba was. That said, he makes a reasonable vig/investigation target.
CDB is unlikely to claim, because the material against him isn't all that significant, TBH. It's essentially "UT was meh, and then flaked, and CDB hasn't done anything." Which, if he has been on V/LA like he said, is a non-case. If CDB shows up and provides the analysis that people are demanding of him, I don't see any reason to continue to pursue a lynch. You're more than welcome to tie me with CDB for this, but it's not a very good wagon when it comes right down to it, and his failure to claim isn't as telling as you want it to be (ESPECIALLY if he's non-vanilla protown).
mafia = cdb, yos, inhim, shanba
Aside from the SK thing, Chamber might be a goddamned motherfucking genius. I *might* be willing to go back to CDB. It really depends on what he does when he finally gets around to posting.
EBWOP: I should also point out, DGB, that if I'm scum and you're the Vig, aggrivating you is NOT in my best interests, especially if CDB is scum with me. It doesn't make sense to potentially lose half the scumgroup if Glork and CDB are both scum together. You're wrong about me, and there's a decent chance you're wrong about CDB. If you decide you'd rather vig CDB than one of Yos/Shanba, that wouldn't be the worst decision ever, but if you're asking for who I would vig, there's really zero debate about that.
Complimented chamber for going after CDB: "He has also put an emphasis on avoiding a similar situation today, with his suspicion summary, and his push on CDB."
"CDB and Porochaz are still decent scum candidates, especially in the event that CTD is not scum."
Vote: Shanba
FoS: CTD, CDB
I don't want to see an endgame that contains {CES, Chamber, Ether, CDB}... it'd pretty much wind up a crapshoot, since everyone had either failed to read, or failed to explain things throughout the course of the game.
CDB (probably scum)
I plan on reading Shanba, CDB, CTD, and CES in isolation
"The only game that I actually remember CDB being scum in was Face-To-Face, and he was pretty lurky there, too. That has definitely been a factor in my deicision to take a look at him today."
"I looked back at HH, and I believe he didn't even have two full posts in the game. It was really down to me investigating HH or CDB, but I went with HH because CDB had explained his V/LA, and I'm expecting significantly more out of him."

CDB on Glork

you know what I haven't gotten to type for a really long time?
vote Glork
that felt good
Flameaxe, Glork, CES, Fritzler, chamber
Rereading these guys, but didn't get much from any of them first time through and would like to hear more from all of them.
Vote: HackerHuck for now, subject to change if I find someone scummier but I'm interested enough to see where this goes. Next people I want to look at are Glork and MBL, not decided in which order.

How come you're worried about Glork and MBL? Glork is fabulously obvtown; MBL is...probably also town as well.

Worried might not be the right word. I just think I need to look closely at them and decide how safe it is to sheep them, because they're both players whose damn near every post reads totally convincingly to me by nature. Both have made big, well-argued scum cases on a couple of people (inHim and Yos, IIRC) which made me more willing to vote said people and they're liable to do it again at some stage, so I think it's pretty important that I examine how much I can afford to trust them.

Instinct says Glork is scum here. Will have reread on Glork done within 12 hours deciding whether or not I agree with said instinct.
I'm rereading Glork at the moment, about halfway through. Basically what I'm getting so far is the usual - Glork seems entirely reasonable, even if I don't always agree with him (Shanba on day 2 is an example of this, I've seen Shanba as town from the start). The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.
Unvote, vote: Glork
Glork I still feel is prolly scum. I don't really see both cop claims being true and I still think Glork's first post of Day 2 did not look like a cop with an innocent on you.
I'm with CES here. Glork is the strongest lynch.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on CES

called Fritz CES and inHim protown early
Asked CES who's scum, CES replies "Ythill and CDB"
asks Shanba his opinion of CES, MBL, Ythill, Yos
DGB attacks CES, Glork defends
"He's not acting like the complete obvtownCES that I saw yesterday, but my D1 read of him trumps what little questionalbe content I have seen."
Asked Shanba: "Do you think that anybody who piled onto the wagon late to ensure that he'd be the only "viable lynch candidate" is likely to be scum (CTD/CES/Yos2)?"
To DGB: "DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today."
Told DGB not to vig CES: "Nah, CES is probably town."
"CES is still alive because there are people who need MORE DEAD, MORE FASTER than him"
"Porochaz is a better kill than CES. CES is pretty easy to figure out once you make him post (and I'm still leaning slightly protown on him anyway)."
I have no interest in killng Gurgi, CES, or Chamber.
CES, if you're town I'd like to see a little less shameless wagoning, and a little more real analysis from you at this point.
I'll add CES as my tentative 4th and see how viable a scumgroup Shanba/CTD/CDB/CES would be sometime in the next couple of days.
In fact, I think CES is probably significantly more likely scum than CTD, who could just be lazy/terrible.
I plan on reading Shanba, CDB, CTD, and CES in isolation
I would be interested in the possibility of a CES lynch today, as I expressed a few pages ago.
Vote: CES in the meantime.

CES on Glork

jokevote
buddied a little early
called Glork dense
(Thinks Glork is scum but votes Shanba)
Called a Glork-Shanba scumpair
early D3: "Case against Glrok: 1) He hasn't caught scum yet, 2) Gut (#1927 e.g. is way too nice), 3) the CTD-"known scums" altercation is hella stupid, 4) he's clearly bussing Shanba. Case against Shanba: 1) He's clearly being bussed by Glrok (behavioral + Yos flipped town and Glrok tends to bus), 2) If Glrok isn't scum, then there's still a good chance of Shanba being scum on account of Glrok being a good scumhunter."
Takes CTD's side on the callout of Glork's "known scums"
Ether asks why still voting Shanba? "Because either Glrok is town and I should sheep him or he's scum and he's likely bussing Shanba (Yos flipping town being relevant here) combined with an absence of town tells."
Shanba is obvious Glrokpartner, Ythill, please.
P.S. signs point to Glrok's cop claim being truthful, which reduces the chance of Shanba being scum, but with the innocent on HH, I think I'll just sheep Glrok for now.
after counterclaim: "Not likely town - it just became likelier. I got the feeling that Glrok was bussing Shanba based on behaviour and Glrok's other suspects flipping town which according to sample calculations gave Shanba a 2/3rds chance of being scum if Glrok was.

Unvote, vote: Glrok"
"You're right, MBL, I was probably too quick there; reading Glrok's iso as per #2086 undermines the quotes ythill pulled up. Unvote, I'll have to think about this.

I'd also like to see a full accounting of why he chose to investigate HH."
"Still waiting for you to explain the N2 HH investigation, Glrok. "
"Glrok should answer the questions posed to to him in 2116 and 2117."
"Are you considering the possibility of Glrok being naive or insane, Ythill, 'cause I didn't see it?"
"So hey, I remembered that this was a normal and non-sane cops are banned by normal guidelines. I checked with Patrick to be sure: if Glrok is a cop, he is sane.

I don't think Pat would put 2 cops in a set-up (and CTD's claim is mucho credible) whereas 1-shot cop, 2-shot vig, doc, supersaint vs. 4 scum sounds balanced.

Unvote, vote: Glrok"
My Top 2 for Glrokpartner is currently HH and Channel
"Way to forget that, Glrok. And no, I wouldn't consider not getting nightkilled a strike against you; it's obvious you're a likely lynch. If you're town, you should be all over this: either you get nightkilled instead of mislynched or you get a free extra investigation.
You are so scum."

[MrBuddyLee]

If Shanba is town and Glork is scum, CES looks bad for voting Shanba because Glork is scum. That whole logical construct was awkward. CES has definitely danced a fine line on Glork.

Glork made sure to mantion minor suspicion of CES but seemed to deflect attention from him D2. Outright defended him from vigging twice. D3 seemed to see the benefit in going after CES--most likely afraid of being tied to him later down the line.

"If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums" was really weird from Glork if he is scum. He defended UT a lot, and defended CDB offhandedly despite calling him good lynch fodder. Why would scumGlork waste any time defending lurking town? Kind of told CDB aloud not to claim. Always pushed Shanba harder than CDB. As CDB became more and more useless, called twice for the vig of CDB. Is this Glork sacrificing a terrible scumpartner to look good, or trying to direct the vig to town?

CDB utterly ignored Glork until CTD's cop counterclaim, then was on him like flies on shit.

I think all three are probably scum. Of them, Glork is probably the right first lynch.

unvote

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on Porochaz

The biggest thing I'm getting is that I don't like Flameaxe's "I agree with CTD" post. I think CTD is stretching a little bit, and flat agreement makes me groan.
If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block
no more on Flameaxe D1.
Porochaz is a better kill than CES. CES is pretty easy to figure out once you make him post (and I'm still leaning slightly protown on him anyway).

That said, Yos/Shanba are p much guaranteed.
Yos is guaranteed scum. Porochaz is only decently likely to be scum.
Fail, fail, and fail.
Porochaz, are you scum?
CDB and Porochaz are still decent scum candidates, especially in the event that CTD is not scum.

Porochaz on Glork

7) Glork
-I like some parts, indifferent about others here. His catchup post seems fine on paper, but I'm getting a weird gut read about it. Can't really explain it. I'm going to try to work on finding words to explain it. I'm liking his posts since then without any weird gut feelings.
-Leaning town 'weird gut' read?

Glork disagrees with all three of his reads and asks, "Porochaz, are you scum?"
"I am glad you disagree. I mean after all we have someone who likes to say people who is scum/town without really giving reasons then can't decide if he is a nurse or a vanilla townie, and your not seeing the scumminess there?

The way I see it, youve spent most of the latter part of the day pushing yos when it wasn't imperative that he had to and then long after. Whatr else have you done? Cause Im not seeing it."

"Also lulz at infinite overlord Glork. Of course you have, as you know everything but please, tell me, why we (or I) should listen to you, when I dont really have much positive to attribute to you?"

- Forgot about Glork
- Bad Vote! - 2
Post 203 - Glork Fail - 1
Anticipation for something useful growing...
Post 505/506 - Bad Posting - Fence sitting -Theorising about 2 scum teams with no evidence. - 3
Post 524 - contradiction to the extreme - 3
Post 1077 - Glork holding MBL to account, really like this post + 2
Page 44 - Good series of posts
Post 1185 - Would quite like Glork to say something useful? - 1
Post 1576 - Why is Glork pushing for a yos claim?when it isn't imperative he does so? - 1
Post 1592 - Still no idea why he would have claimed.

Overall: - 7

Glork was fairly useless, which isnt like him. The whole yos thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Im worried about his fluff:reasoning ratio, that seems to be way too high in the fluff section.

Verdict: SCUMMY.
(Note, he called inHim, Ythill and CES SCUM not SCUMMY)

Okay, lots of inconsistencies, a cop claim with a counter claim and my previous post on him. vote Glork

Without the iffy claim CES would be a better vote. Ether's feelings towards Glork give me bad vibes however not nearly enough to make anything of it.

I voted Glork over CES purely because the claim I don't feel is believable and things change like the claim therefore I have to adhust my vote accordingly.



Glork made sure to push some suspicion upon Porochaz each day but never pushed the lynch aggressively. Even when saying he was a good lynch, said Shanba, Yos and maybe even CTD were better lynches.

Porochaz and Flameaxe never really delved into Glork at all until the start of D3, and never followed up on his "SCUMMY" call til after the claim. I need to look into why Flameaxe got such a "weird gut" read off Glork's first suspicions post. Did Glork call out all his partners, or perhaps none of them? Reasonable analysis post on Glork (and CES) at the start of D3 but never did anything about it. Minor town points but not really. Really quick to lay into Glork when the cop claims came down.

Significantly likely scumpair. I can totally see Glork requesting replacements for scumpartners CDB and Flameaxe or encouraging them to replace out if there's a daytalk quicktopic.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether, I just read your entire post history and I believe you've given two reasons why Glork is town:

1) Because he sucks this game too much to be scum.
2) Just because.

I would like some more specifics from you, please. I am willing to lynch the claimed cop here unless you or Glork convince me otherwise. The argument "let's put it off a day and lynch X instead" only works for me if we're nearly as sure that X is scum. And while I think it's fairly likely that Porochaz is scum, I think I'm more sure about Glork right now.

Glork, Porochaz, CES, CDB
lesser chance, haven't really played like town: Huck, Ether, Shanba
lesser lesser chance but not obvTown: Gurgi, chamber
not likely scum unless they've pulled a great gambit: CTD, Ythill

[MrBuddyLee]

If MBL can refrain from another premature hammer on a protown player

I'll dip my trigger finger in liquid nitro and preserve it for hammering future generations of terrible town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, how's Cataclysm treating you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Pretty sure 2-3 of them are busing. Notice how little thought a few of them gave to the situation.

[MrBuddyLee]

Actually, nevermind, that could just as easily mean they're lazy scum running up a townie. However, you'd think scum would be a little more cautious when running up a townie cop.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, do you think Glork slipped, yes or no.

Yeah, most likely. Just waiting for his suspicions post as I promised.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Glork

[MrBuddyLee]

I spent most of the night thinking Huck/MBL/Porochaz

*boggles*

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on Huck

That's not a very bold statement, HH. There will almost certainly be at least one scum out of {one third of the living playerlist}.
My pressing question: Why did you omit MBL from that list?

Mulling over where I want to put my vote right now, but it will probably wind up somewhere among {Yos2, Shanba, HackerHuck}.

(to HH) But why is not voting at all a better behavior than being on a different wagon. I wasn't here during the last several hours of the day, so I never had a chance to weigh in on the Mert situation. (FWIW, I wouldn't have switched to Mert, but that's kind of a moot point now.) MBL was around and consciously chose not to contribute to a D1 lynch as well, so why does he get a free pass just because he removed his vote, rather than having it placed somewhere else?

It's bullshit because there's no way you could get ZERO inklings from that wagon at all. If the scums wanted to wagon someone to lynch, then there had to be SOME turning point that made them jump to Mert. If they didn't, then you should be doing what HackerHuck is doing, and closely examining the people who were off-wagon when the lynch went down.

Town motivation: "If I claim vanilla and Yos doesn't answer me, I'll probably die and nothing about Yos will be revealed. If I claim Nurse to force Yos to answer me, then immediately rescind my claim, I'll probably die and something about Yos will be revealed."

Can you not agree with this logic, HH?

That would be weird. HH has been under my radar all game. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've gotten any strong reading on him one way or another, so I'll add him to the list of people I need to look at overnight.

to CES: "Your use of Burden of Proficiency is especially laughable, considering your own voting record. Get past the early-game silliness, and you've been on Ecto(town), FoS'd Ythill (town), inHm (town), Mert (town), back to Yos (town), Shanba (probably scum), CDB (probably scum), but then when it really mattered, back to Yos/inHim, Today you've flipflopped between HH (town) and Shanba.... with a little Glork (town) on the side."

And you're obviously headed down the wrong path today having decided that HH and I are among your top suspects.

PS, HackerHuck is not the play.

I'm the Cop. I investigated MBL as innocent N1, and HH as innocent last night.

MBL is correct here. That post was a critique of HackerHuck's failure to provide sound analysis, not an attempt to sluff suspicion onto MBL.

Huck on Glork

Bound to be at least one scum out of Stark, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Chamber and Glork. That's where I'm going to start.

I exempted MBL, because I think there is at least one scum in the list of players that were voting for alternate wagons. If you want to bet that there aren't any scum in that list of five, I'd actually take you up on that.

[GLORK]
This is pretty frightening. I've snipped some choice bits out of post 206.

Hard to find much fault with Glork, except that I'm disagreeing with most of his reads up through his first 25 posts. I'm not a fan of the speculation about two separate scum groups. This early, it's either going to be a distraction, or it's a way to cast more suspicion on players and be able to ignore why they couldn't be scum together.
Comparison to Sly Cooper is a big stretch. In that game, he specifically said that he was playing differently and did make that known to the other players. I recall it being a very different Glork than I've seen in this game.

I found Gurgi and Chamber to be townish and Glork was more in the middle.

EBWOP: I suppose (since someone is likely to nitpick) that it's worth noting that MBL removed his vote earlier, but it is still not-on-anybody as we approach deadline.

What may be more important is that Ythill is calling Yos' lack of voting trail scummy while not being so concerned about MBL's.

YTHill - The comment about me confusing your role with DGB seemed a bit too obvious. I'm also with Glork on your VCA. I don't really understand how you're coming to some of those conclusions based on the vote counts you posted.

I'll look at the folks not on the InHim wagon:
Glork, CTD, Ether, and Shanba.

So, I see one scum in this group:
Stark, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Chamber and Glork
and one scum in this group:
Glork, CTD, Ether, and Shanba

Given the overlap, odds are that we have one scum that avoided both lynches. I still like Ether and Shanba from yesterday, but I'll still take a look through that whole group.

CDB - I just want to correct that I was only mentioning Glork's premonitions as an aside. They really had no bearing on why I felt he was not scummy.

Why the early claim Glork? I saw what you said, but we just started day and Ythill wasn't necessarily riding you that hard.

In rereading Glork's ISO, I was bothered by his decision to investigate me since he had spent most of Day2 focusing on Shanba and Yos as scum.
If you look at the trail from 141-143 in his ISO, there is some evidence of crumbing followed by his statement that I'm not the play for today. I can also see how Glork was crumbing town results on MBL.

I guess my concern with his claim still centers around three things:
1- Why the switch from one of Yos/Shanba to me?
2- Why the lack of concern around sanity
3- The early claim based on very little pressure

I don't think that Glork is the obvious play for today. Although he has been slow to address the concerns around his claim, we're probably looking at three other people who are scum. I also don't see what the scum motivation for making that claim would be. He wasn't under any serious lynch threat and he didn't know that Ythill ran out of shots. So scum were in a pretty good position at that point. I don't really see him taking the risk of the claim when a mislynch and a bad vig would mostly put the game away for them. I would also expect a fake-claim to have a guilty in there to improve the chances of getting a mislynch. Besides, the cop issue should be sorted out on its own within the next couple of days. With the certainty of sanity (although GF could be an issue), we'll put ourselves in a pretty good place to as long as we avoid lynching the claimants and those claimed as investigation targets.

I've acknowledged that he's been 'counterclaimed'. I believe your claim over his, but I'm not certain that your one-shot ability means that he cannot be a full cop. I think Ythill even made a point later that implies that the inclusion of both roles actually weakens them both. I'm also going from the perspective that even if scum, Glork has correctly called two people as innocents. I know I am, and I've felt that MBL is as well.

We were still early in the day and nowhere near a lynch, yet he claimed before even trying to convince Ythill of his innocence.

He knows who the vig is and Ythill has not been shy about who he suspects. If I were scum Glork, I'd wait until we get closer to lynch before I make that kind of a fakeclaim.

That's also not any kind of guarantee, because there could be a GF in the mix that would prevent anyone from truly being confirmed by Glork's death as a townie. We're still essentially left with the same list of suspects to go after.

Even if I go back to my beginning of the day search for suspects - looking at those not on the Inhim lynch, I'm not seeing Glork as the best option. That set of players was Glork, Shanba, CTD, Ythill and Ether. If I cross off Ythill and CTD because their claims make sense, that leaves me with Glork, Shanba, and Ether. Based on play, I'd pick Shanba (as possible GF) or Ether over Glork. The other folks - CDB, Gurgi, Chamber, Porochaz, and CES are probably the place to start since there are no investigation results to cloud the mind. I'd like to hear some more from them as well.

I said that ignoring claims and results, I would not put Glork as the most suspicious in that group. I went down that route because my assumption set doesn't really make a lot of sense in evaluating that group in the context of one of them being scum.

Wait, you're voting for Porochaz. I can see why CES might see it as an alternative to a Glork mislynch, but why aren't you looking at if from the Lynch Porochaz or No-lynch perspective? I'd prefer a Porochaz lynch, but I'd also prefer a no-lynch over lynching Glork right now.

I'm also not sure how Ythill came up with me as a partner with Porochaz and Glork.

Looking at the people who have indicated that Glork made a scum-slip, he's well within lynch range right now.

I will say that Glork's lack of effort today has whittled away most of my support for him.

[MrBuddyLee]

You don't need to quote long strings of other people's posts if you're not going to comment on them--it clutters the thread. You also don't need to repeat yourself--it doesn't make you look any townier.

[MrBuddyLee]

Based on the death (again), CES is town (again).

Ether, why is CES town based on the last two deaths?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork manipulated and massaged inHim a lot. He knew inHim was an easy puppet, so he kept feeding him small compliments and keeping him in line. I think that reading Glork's posts carefully may give clues on who his scumpartners are and which people are townies he was trying to manipulate. Note this:

I don't see how Shanba slipped up there. He wants to know why I'm calling inHim protown. That said, I dint really feel like explaining myself right now.

The real reason: because there WAS no real reason--he was using inHim and needed to call him protown to keep inHim on his side. You'll see later in the game that Glork used inHim a few more times:

fyi, anybody who votes inHim is probably scum

I'm going to echo inHim and say what's the scum motivation? inHim retracted his Nurse-claim almost immediately, before anybody had really had a chance to evaluate it. The scum motivation behind a fake-claim would be to get votes off of him, which is clearly NOT what inHim was going for.

inHim's play the last couple of pages looks protown. His associations with

known scums

does not look protown. I'm actually quite conflicted right now.

(Remind me to get back to that known scums thing.)

Well, you finally called me Town throughout this Purgatory of mine, so it makes me feel a little better.

Note, Glork REALLY wanted to keep inHim around another day to use as a tool. Glork pushed for Yos's lynch instead. (And Shanba's, I believe.)

Not sure whether Glork considered using Huck as his next pet. Huck's posts indicate some willingness to trust Glork, and it's clear Glork invented the Huck investigation idea sometime overnight N2, which is the same time he lost his former puppet inHim.

Which makes more sense? Glork discusses strat with teammates overnight N2, decides he'll crumb an investigation on one of them? Or Glork and teammates discuss overnight that it would work out better if he crumbed an innocent on a townie who several people found somewhat suspicious? Depends on how forward-thinking he was. If he knew he'd be in trouble eventually, he'd want to distance from scumpartners. Making them his investigation target's not really effective distancing unless he's super WIFOM-crafty. If he got greedy and thought he'd be safe D3, he may have wanted to go for a quick win, he could hope his claim succeeded and then take a scumpartner out of the possible lynch pool. It was probably more of a setup for later days--he probably thought Yos/CDB/Porochaz/CES/Shanba were more likely early lynches. Why not fake a result on one of CDB/Poro that is almost certainly scum? Because he's letting them dangle and is probably not willing to go down in flames if they screw up. Would he trust Huck more not to get in trouble? Maybe.

inHimshallibe (7) -- ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, HackerHuck, Yosarian2, Porochaz
inHim asked:

Is Yosarian the only scum on my wagon? 'Cause, that'd be weird.

That would be weird. HH has been under my radar all game. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've gotten any strong reading on him one way or another, so I'll add him to the list of people I need to look at overnight. CDB and Porochaz are still decent scum candidates, especially in the event that CTD is not scum.

I have no interest in killng Gurgi, CES, or Chamber. Oh, and MBL is still town, even though he's going to hammer you.

Why's he tune in to Huck so fast there? Why's he mention CDB/Poro as scum and not chamber or CES?

Note, Ether voted Huck right off the bat D3 and Poro tuned in to it like a laser:

Ether, why the vote?

'Cause he's scum.

Ythill sheeped Ether.
I found the instant Huck attention a little odd at the time.. CES piles on right after Glork telegraphs his fake result. I know everyone thinks Ether is obvTown or something, but it almost looks a little scripted to me. It's possible that Glork decided on his fake investigation target AFTER he saw Ether's and Ythill's votes.

It's also possible, if there's a quicktopic, that this is a mis-cross-post by Poro:

K I am currently out of town at the funeral, so Im V/LA for a few days then I will post the rest later.

nope nevermind I think it's him misposting from another thread.

Huck's concern about Glork's claim seems genuine--he points out good reasons to be concerned with the claim, as well as reasons it could be real.

He brings up a few irrelevant things to Glork's alignment, like the fact that Glork "cleared" two "innocents". He factors in that claiming was a bad play, even though I believe he acknowledges it's a bad play there for both scum and town.

There's a bit of defense of Glork here and there.

It's a bit creepy that Huck's weird "I see one scum in this group" logic worked out to be at least somewhat true--Glork was in both groups. And Huck put Glork behind Shanba and stark as people to look at based on his conclusions, which doesn't look great if both Shanba and Ether are town.

I don't think his opinion that "Glork's not the play" is super scummy--it was shared by Shanba, Ether, CES and a few others. I actually find shadier the people who dismissed Glork's claim too easily--Porochaz and CDB especially. Town wasn't really sure, and weighed the possibilities. Scum knew Glork was going down soon for his fakeclaim, and started positioning themselves early, and locked it in once the counterclaim arrived. I doubt they were willing to tie Glork around their necks.

If Huck is scum he's sprinkled an awful lot of crap in my direction to try to throw me off:
MBL just lost a little townie point for this. I get the impression that this is a leading question, because my recent posts would point to Yos as scum from this perspective and I've already mentioned that I suspect him.


Conclusion: not sure yet. Glork seemed to play opposite of his normal meta this game--he voted

me

,

Ecto

,

Shanba

, CDB,

Yos

, then finally CES at the end of the day. He was also super sloppy and pretty lazy. He may have been going with the outright "protect your partners" strategy. Which would make Huck, Porochaz, CES the most likely scum. His brief attack on CDB was so half-assed and never reinstated, that it wouldn't be a shocker if CDB was scum. I still find it a little odd that Glork outright defended CES from what appeared to be a possible incoming vigging.

I spotted this from Porochaz:

Why are people unvoting CDB?????????????

grrrrrrrrr

Because the wagon makes no sense?

It's odd to see defense of random town if Poro is scum. More likely, if Poro is scum, CDB is scum.

I'm becoming less interested in a CDB lynch. It is more stagnant than the push against Shanba was. That said, he makes a reasonable vig/investigation target.

This in the middle of a page where DGB and CTD started to rail aggressively against CDB. Why would Glork defuse the CDB wagon? Was he anticipating a CDB mislynch and prepping to blame some townies for it AGAIN, or is he protecting a scumpartner outright?

Posting this even though I haven't fully processed.. I really do think Glork gave us a lot of the answers--we just need to read carefully.

[MrBuddyLee]

(I think CES would have killed Crash instead of Ythill.)

Why?

And what was your reasoning from the previous kill that exonerates CES? Scum killed DGB instead of XXX because...

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether, you claimed to have meta galore on Glork. Now that he's confirmed scum, please tell us what his strategy likely was, who he was protecting, and who he was busing. Since you didn't give us more than "he sucks too much to be scum" yesterday, I think you owe us a fuller accounting today of how you view his interactions with each player.

[MrBuddyLee]

On second thoughts, I don't want to give my full answer yet. Sorry--feel free to call me on this later.

ps. This is sketchy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Shanba, please dazzle me with your genius. Which of Porozac or Huck is more likely scum, and why? Bonus points if your answer invokes the words "Glork" "Glorked" or "Glrok".

[MrBuddyLee]

Can you

please

stop doing this? I complained the first two times; you're just putting words into my mouth.

That's a serious observation. If he were confident and in control, it could really go either way and I'd have no clue how to read him. (I read him accurately as scum in my last game with him--but the mechanics there forced the scum to act strangely, and I think I was constantly reading him as scum before that too. Still, I think there's a bit I've picked up from them. His selfmeta is totally believable, too.)

You said you picked up a bit from your previous games with Glork, so please share. What did you learn from your previous games with Glork in which you accurately read him as scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

Why are you asking Shanba in particular?

I'll swoop in and let you know if it becomes important.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: CDB

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, I haven't seen you give a reason why you're voting for HackerHuck. Can you please give a brief summary?

[MrBuddyLee]

chamber, I hope you don't get replaced. I've enjoyed having you in the game, and besides that, it'd be a nightmare to bring a replacement in at this point.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not sure about Huck and I'm not sure we have enough information to know who's going after him for good reasons and who's not. Whether he's scum or not, we'll have to make decisions tomorrow based on the quality of people's cases on him. I'm fairly certain that the scumteam has decided to do some busing, which will make it difficult for us to pick out the remaining scum. For example, let's say scum #3 votes for scum #1 today, scum #1 again tomorrow, and scum #2 the next day. We'll have no way to distinguish them from a townie who voted wrong unless we get them to say more about their reasons for voting. I don't think all scum will bus, because that'd make it too easy for us to pick off one or two of them, but I definitely think there will be a busing component to endgame here.

It cracks me up that anyone would criticize me for asking questions in a game where people aren't saying all that much, just plunking down their votes. I suppose that irks scum, because they have to make some shit up or even worse, actually read the thread and come up with reasonable answers that don't smell like horseshit? Not everyone is guilty of this, but I still think we're information-deficient.

I think Ether has played horribly as town or brilliantly as scum.

Scratch that. She had some decent early opinions on CTD, DGB, Ythill, Shanba, Yos, albeit with minimal evidence stated. Lots of town reads, not many scum reads. Seemed to be reading people's posts thoughtfully. I didn't like that she tried to stop DGB from vigging. She protected Glork all day. She's had lots of town reads and no consistent strong scum reads except Huck. If he's scum, she's probably town, as she's tried to bury him for a few days now. I don't really like how when Glork claimed and CTD countered, she tried to fit everything into her view on Glork instead of following the evidence. Glork HAD to be town, so Huck was no longer a top suspect, so Porochaz became her top suspect, and she suddenly became willing to lynch me, who she'd recently found townish. Annoying or scummy. Definitely annoying, and if not scummy then just a very different way than I play.

She seems to show deference to CES, CDB, who I don't feel have done much recently to earn that deference. She seems to find chamber and Huck scummy, and possibly Porochaz. I really don't like that she calls CES town based on the nightkill, but won't explain her thoughts. It's almost as if she slipped based on some information scum would have and not town, then realized that's not a postable reason, and is now hoping everyone will forget. I can't think of a reason she wouldn't back up her "CES is town" statement if she is town.

I guess the flips will tell the tale on Ether. Relentless attacks on Huck except when Glork bubbled him. Mild attacks on Porochaz and pushing him instead of Glork. Deference to CDB/CES and seeing CDB in particular as a victim in this game. We won't see Shanba's flip just yet, so we won't know until game over how her read on him was. Her mildly scummy read on chamber is fine I suppose, but shy on evidence, and imo her read on me is shortsighted. Scum are looking for the easiest two or so townies to lynch so they can win. I don't really fit into that category, so I don't know why Etherscum would be voting me besides to avoid having to vote a scumpartner. I really don't know what the hell she's up to right now if she's town. If scum, I'd have to guess she's avoiding a scumpartner's wagon to give time for a town wagon to build alongside it?

I wouldn't remotely consider lynching Ether today, but if a bad flip comes, she should be seriously looked into. I would consider Huck = town to be a bad flip for Ether, and to a lesser extent CDB=scum or CES=scum. I don't think a chamberflip would say much about her, nor CTD or Gurgi, and a Shanbaflip probably isn't happening to give us a read on her Shanbacall.

[MrBuddyLee]

So because I read pretty much everyone alive as town I'm going to be more stringent.

Town, WTF are you voting them?
MBL
Ether
Shanba
Ythill

Neutral
Glork
CES

Scum-ish
HH
chamber
CTD

Lurkers
Prozac
CDB

CES is on the neutral list and not the scum list largely because of how awful the wagons were against him. Glrok because we haven't caught scum yet, and it's all his fault. Everything else should be pretty clear.

Gurgi,

I just reviewed the CES wagons and they were all small and all consisted of dead townies. DGB, Ythill, inHim, Mert. Glork on CES happened after you made this post. What exactly scared you off about the old CES wagons? Was someone you found scummy talking shit about CES? Because I can't find it. I see that you've found him scummier recently, but your only stated reason was that he was correcting people too much. He seemed to actually be correcting them about decent things, and this was in a period of time when the most important thing was to properly analyze roles and setup, and I think he was actually making important distinctions. I think he's scummish, but to think that fully I'd have to think that he intentionally played that Glork stretch pretty well as fake-town. Asked Pat about the sanity issue, sort of hammered Glork for slipping, seemed to waver the same amount as reasonable town would based on the evidence. Can you please explain your current stance on CES?

(Before I forget, another interesting point about CES is that he tried to persuade DGB and Glork to unvote me and vote a more lynchable target D1, back when Glork was attacking me like a rabid, retarded water buffalo. It's an odd thing to imagine scum saying to scum, and super stylish if CES is scumpartners with Glork.)

Gurgi, you've also found Huck scummy recently, for an exchange with Ether. I read the stretch, and Huck doesn't look great, though it's more http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2714329 and http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2728040 and

I was also thinking that a CES/Porochaz scumpair is a possibility. They've managed to distance themselves pretty well in voting behaviour and CES has maybe mentioned him once all game.

(which seems randomly out of place)
than anything about him supposedly avoiding Ether. I find much of your voting reasoning thin but believable. You kept your vote on chamber all day because you were unsure about Glork until he slipped. Now you're on Huck and suddenly seem open to voting me, who you've found pretty damned town all game. I won't hold you to that old analysis, but sometime down the road I'm curious to hear why you're reading me differently.

Why do you think you're the only person who has chamber at the top of their scumlist? Is there something we're missing? I'm about to read, him, CDB and Poro for the zillionth time, and I tend to put them chamber in a different bucket from the other two. CDB and Poro have almost played the prototypical scum game. chamber, he was pretty involved early and for the past few weeks seems to be inactive for god knows why.

Do you have any read on CDB or Poro, or any way to tell them apart al all? In a final three with them, would you flip a coin? You pretty much haven't touched them all, and you've actually seemed to oppose wagons on them a few times because they're lurkers. What if the lurkers are scum?

A lot of questions.. answer as many as you have time to. I don't really think you're scum, and would like your opinions to help find scum, and in the offchance you're scum, having you on the record about some of these guys will be useful.

[MrBuddyLee]

Now make a post about who you would remotely consider lynching.

I think I've said that or implied it several times, but I'll repeat it because you're being a pain. (It's possible I haven't made it clear enough, in which case I apologize, but I've been posting a lot of thoughts on these guys and their interactions with Glork and I work through a lot of different iso/thread reads before I'm really willing to commit firmly to a worldview.)

CDB, Porochaz (if I convince myself his wagon wasn't a scum alternative to Glork.. and it doesn't look like it) top picks, lesser chance Huck but that may change when I read him again. (the recent reread I did of him was an iso specific to his interactions with Glork)

If all three are town, I'll be shocked. That would make scum three of {CES, CTD, Ether, Shanba, chamber, Gurgi}, which I'm really not seeing. CES irked me with the way he played Shanba-Glork but I've had enough minor townish tells from him that I more want his opinions than his lynch. CTD isn't scum unless he and Glork are adrenaline junkies. Ether is whatever. Shanba is lazy but investigated and probably town. chamber is a falling star and deserves a reread but meh. Gurgi just feels town but hasn't given a ton of scumreads to help back it up.

[MrBuddyLee]

Mostly I'm just rolling my eyes because Shanba asked you for your current thoughts on the game, and your response was 5/6ths me (concluding that you weren't going to lynch me today anyway--and it's not like I was a point of discussion before your post) and the remaining paragraph only mentioned a single person (Huck) in passing without coming to any conclusion.

Hey, I tolerate your style of play where you clear scum unequivocally for thin reasons. I will get around to picking out a best scum candidate today, but part of that process is talking about everyone else AND trying to build town consensus. You know that feeling you get when someone you kind of think might be town says something that makes a ton of sense and suddenly the process of elimination becomes easier? Yeah, we need more of that.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well not really, the whole cop-doc thing comes into play here as well. In that a one shot cop is a perfect way to fill the void where a cop causes problems. Also with a vig, a supersaint, a one shot cop, a full cop and a doc in this town its getting a little crowded, no? I see it as a perfectly valid counterclaim.

PS. This is, in and of itself, a valid reason to lynch Porochaz. Discuss.

Not seeing it, unless it was stating the obvious long after the fact? Or are you saying he sounds bitter about all the town power?

[MrBuddyLee]

Why am I scummy?

Well, I could say the push on the two lurkers.

Why leave the lurkers alone? Do they shit golden eggs?

[MrBuddyLee]

the Glrok innocent result.

Glork slapped me with an innocent too. I'm not sure I agree with that as a reason.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm here. I have a half-finished post on Huck that's been sitting around for two days, and I'm holding off on finishing it until I take the time to get it right, but I don't think that really helps the situation so I'll just paste it as is and then finish my rereads and revise and extend my remarks later.

Huck's reads have been low quality. He played a bunch of mumbo-jumbo with votecounts like Ythill did, but less insightful. He did make some observations here and there that made it clear he was reading the thread looking for distinctions in scummy/townish play. His D1 reads were very light--Ecto townish, chamber meh, Yos Ythill mildly scummy. For whatever reason, he read me and inHim townish and pushed Mert instead of me or inHim D1--he could have left the lurker as lynchbait the next day and gotten rid of an active townie. Hypothesis: maybe he couldn't afford to be on the Glork-led MBL wagon. Hypothesis: Maybe Glork wanted inHim alive as a pawn. Hypothesis: maybe he was lazy town but had a good town read or two.

First analysis post of D2 fairly shitty. Goes after the idle Stark with vigor, puts Glork solidly in the middle even though he disagrees with all his suspicions (MBL). Also appears to throw a sideways compliment at Glork for pegging the Mert and Fritzler alignments, which seems out of place. Defends Glork on meta from Sly Cooper. Very thin analysis of Glork considering Glork's activity D1--no further mention of Glork's terrible push on me/Ecto? Draws a little too much attention to the fact that no one likes his Ether/starkvote. "The comments on the Mert wagon are also concerning. The scum had to be nervous when that wagon came up so fast." is odd. Cites me as confirmation for his Shanba-Yos beliefs. Hiding behind a townie to justify his wagoning on Shanba? Says he's interested in going after those who were pushing my lynch D1, but doesn't go after Glork/DGB? Uses "must have been some busers" as the basis for an analysis that yields:

ChannelDelibird (1) -- Flameaxe

as a possible scumpair. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2687152

Keep an eye on that:

Based on my last post, I'd consider moving to Porochaz, but I'm happier with my vote on Shanba. I'm not in favor of the CDB wagon, since it just looks like a lurker-lynch at this point.

Possible protection of CDB, possible attempt to distance from Porochaz, but ultimately leaves vote on a (townie?)

Weird post on IH/DGB/CTD scumpair

Goaded me on inHim, seems to have been pushing me to vote him, takes a 6 day break, manages to cast suspicion on both the Yos voters and the inHim voters (says im over the top). And dings Yos for not hammering inHim. Only gets on inHim after the bad fakeclaim.

Very claim-focused. Ythill talking vig. Curious about inHim's crumbed role.

Tries to tie me to Ythill when I leave my vote off inHim a while.

I think it's important to get the real support/opposition registered against the InHim lynch so that his flip will have some meaning.

Good point, but note that Glork already registered his opposition, so this would be a safe thing to do if they know inHim is town.

Day three, seems to analyze the Glorkclaim reasonably, definitely pushes for a Poro lynch over a Glork lynch, cites the meaningless argument on behalf of Glork:

I'm also going from the perspective that even if scum, Glork has correctly called two people as innocents. I know I am, and I've felt that MBL is as well.

Unless my logic is bad, I don't think the correctness of Glork's calls has any bearing on the validity of his claim.

Huck mentions me in 23 of 61 posts. And has thought I'm town most of that time. What's up with that? Lil bit stalker-ey. Possible scum management of a dangerous townie.

Ok, that's the post, half-finished. Conclusion on Huck? Not sure. Shanba, you read my Ether summary and told me I was missing the correct conclusion--that she's probably town. Take a stab at this post. Read anything between the lines? My gut instinct is that CDB has played scummier, but that Huck is definitely scummy. I'll need to read Porochaz and Huck again to ascertain relative scumminess of the two. CES, I dunno. The way he thought "Glork-Shanba was a scumpair but pushed Shanba because Glork could either be right or busing" really rubs me the wrong way but he's also done a few townish tone things so I'd probably put Huck as scummier than CES.

I told myself I'd look at who's protected who over the course of the game, and that we'd probably find the scum by finding four people who've all protected each other at one time or another. Not consistently, necessarily, but at pivotal times when they thought a nudge might keep the focus elsewhere. I'll start that by reviewing Glork's posts for protection, and work my way out from there.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL I need to investigate in my reread because in my memory, he was uncharacteristically uncritical of Glork's crap case on him, has avoided taking stances and there's some other instances in his play that rubbed me the wrong way.

CTD, I made a lot of observations of Glork acting weird and just didn't put all the pieces together. Examples:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2640605
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2648890
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2649850
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2655781
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2657677
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2657974
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2659148
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2659447
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2659858
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2660615
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2670674
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2671318
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2680230

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2680779
(CTD, check out the attempt by Glork to tie Shanba to CDB here. Looks like Glork possibly wanted to set Shanba up as the next lynch if CDB got nabbed.)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2683754
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2684209
(Pointed out that Glork was uncharacteristically inactive (and active elsewhere) around deadline D1.)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2691103

Glork was trusting you, trusting me, trusting Stark, trusting Gurgi, attacking CDB, attacking Shanba and Yos, somewhat trusting CES, somewhat trusting chamber. He was actually playing the game aggressively and appeared to be scumhunting. He said chamber's call of "shanba, yos, inhim, cdb" as scum might be a genius call. That looked like a townish assessment to me, so I posted:

I like his recent play and the people he's poking at/trusting. So no, right now he's not on my scum list.

I wasn't thrilled with his D1 play or his limited focus to Shanba/CDB earlier today or that he missed my two giant posts Friday about Shanba and Yos and my vote for Yos:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2679001
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2679328

We're on Page 44 and you have yet to vote for a single player other than Ecto, who was town

. Man up and start hunting scum.

MBL, if this were an MBF-style game where nobody could be Not-Voting, where would your vote be right now?

Implies skimming. However, all of his flaws this game can be explained by his preoccupation with women and orcs.

Doh.

Found some good stuff re: vig targets and Glork reactions while looking back at this stretch. Incoming.

[MrBuddyLee]

Something I noticed while rereading:
* Glork directed "the vig" to kill Shanba overnight. I think what happened to start D2 is, Glork realized there was a vig that nailed Fritzler, probably thought it was DGB cause that's the kind of play she'd make, and he decided to clean his act up to reduce the chance of getting vigged, and also so he could have enough town cred to direct the vig. He quit attacking me because he knew it was drawing attention to him--people left and right (Shanba, Huck) were calling his reads terrible. He directed the vig to Shanba and outright away from CES. I do think he called CDB a vig/investigation target, which is a little disturbing because that makes it sound like he wants one/both to waste their shot on CDB.

Actually... read DGB's play from DEc 16th or so to Christmas. She said she wanted to vig Glork, CES and CDB.

Hi guys, I just got back from V/LA. I've been travelling for two straight days and am completely shattered (off to bed as soon as I've posted this message everywhere), but

I'll be catching up tomorrow

.

He's catching up

today

.

TODAY

<blink>
Don't give me that stagnation bizniss, Glorkster. You say we should waste an investigation him????

WUT

!!! HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND??? Waste an investigation on a useless lurker??? Why not a

VIG SHOT

?????????????????? An

investigation

???????? Instead of a vig shot??????? Are you drunk? High? Passed out? Are you hoping some idiot player is going to investigate CDB who has contributed nothing while maybe I also vig him???????????? Are you CDB's buddy???
</blink>

If CDB fails to show up with the necessary fakeclaim, he'll be considered "given up scum" and will be lynched without further ceremony or gnashing of teeth. If you're sentimental, look away.

-OR-

If for some reason we're not lynching CDB...

We're lynching

Glork

.

ONE OF THESE TWO IS SCUM. MAYBE BOTH. We lynch one, I vig the other.

X

CDB is unlikely to claim, because the material against him isn't all that significant, TBH. It's essentially "UT was meh, and then flaked, and CDB hasn't done anything." Which, if he has been on V/LA like he said, is a non-case. If CDB shows up and provides the analysis that people are demanding of him, I don't see any reason to continue to pursue a lynch. You're more than welcome to tie me with CDB for this, but it's not a very good wagon when it comes right down to it, and his failure to claim isn't as telling as you want it to be (ESPECIALLY if he's non-vanilla protown).

EBWOP: I should also point out, DGB, that if I'm scum and you're the Vig, aggrivating you is NOT in my best interests, especially if CDB is scum with me. It doesn't make sense to potentially lose half the scumgroup if Glork and CDB are both scum together. You're wrong about me, and there's a decent chance you're wrong about CDB. If you decide you'd rather vig CDB than one of Yos/Shanba, that wouldn't be the worst decision ever, but if you're asking for who I would vig, there's really zero debate about that.

Are you wanting to know if I'm itching to vig him(Yos)?

WAIT WUT

You're not trying to distract me from the CDB wagon, are you???

You've got to read the whole stretch--I can't paste all teh interactions in here. Look at how Glork freaks out when DGB announces her three vig targets. He even stoops to self-meta, which she calls him out on. He's desperate to change the equation. He pushes Yos and Shanba more heavily. He flat-out argues against a Glork-CDB scumpair. Why would he try to untie himself from a townie? I think it's more likely that he tries to untie him from a scumpartner who, if CDB gets lynched, is going to result in DGB vigging Glork. Better yet, keep DGB from getting a CDB flip so she doesn't have extra impetus to vig Glork. Note, this is probably the exact time Glork decided to be "a cop". He was desperate not to be vigged. He actually poked at me in the few days before DGB called him out, and then called me "not all that likely to be scum" a day or two after DGB's threats. He must have decided around the 22nd of December that I was his "investigation".

Glork's terrible D3 claim now makes sense. He was prepared to claim cop D2 to escape DGB's vig. He was super vig-focused and spent a good deal of energy D2 directing the vig somewhere that would hurt him least.

If he's worried about her vigging him, wouldn't he show approval of her CDB or CES vig calls? Instead, he tries to redirect her away from them (less aggressively with CDB) and to two new players. One of them, or possibly both, is probably scum based on the way Glork played this.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL: What point are you making with #2520 regarding your mistake?

If CTD is time-limited, I'd rather hear his opinions of anyone besides me. He said one of his big concerns about me was that I didn't get on Glork as aggressively as I would have in the past for a crap case, so I posted a summary of pretty much exactly how I felt about Glork over that month or so. If it saves him time by clearing up his concerns, great. If not, whatever.

Ether, did you read D1? Do you really think Glork was trying to bus me all day?

Also, can you please be clear about why you believe CDB isn't a good lynch today? Is it just that I'm on him, or is it more that you don't like the CDB wagons? From your perspective if you're town:

ChannelDelibird (6) --

Glork

,

chamber

,

Cogito Ergo Sum

,

Ythill

,

Ether

,

DrippingGoofball

ChannelDelibird (6) --

Glork

,

chamber

,

Cogito Ergo Sum

,

Ether

,

DrippingGoofball

,

CrashTextDummie

and yesterday:
ChannelDelibird (3) --

chamber

, MrBuddyLee,

Cogito Ergo Sum

Your vote has been on Huck, me, Porochaz, not on chamber/CES. Huck and Porochaz haven't been on CDB. I'm not sure I understand your opposition to the CDB wagon beyond the fact that I'm on it.

Also, are you really doubting that Huck and Porochaz are scum together just because Huck voted Porochaz?

What made you shift from:

I continue to not support this (and think that Porochaz is really obvscum anyway and this discussion can wait for a day)

to

CDB could be scum. Don't think it's the most likely option; I dunno. I spent most of the night thinking Huck/MBL/Porochaz, but HackerHuck's Chazvote kind of implies that it could be something else.

overnight? You seem to have gone from "Porochaz is obvscum" to "Huck is obvscum and he's voting Porochaz so Poro might not be scum". What gives?

[MrBuddyLee]

I think there's plenty of evidence suggesting a scumteam of Glork-HH-Prozac-CES.

Have you posted any of this evidence? I would like to see your evidence of a Glork-HH scumteam. I would like to see your case on HH.

[MrBuddyLee]

Do you really think Glork was trying to bus

...

Come on, you've

got

to have something better than that.

Sorry, Ether, but when someone's read is as off the wall as yours is, it means you're either scum or not reading the full game--that's why I asked. It doesn't surprise me that you can't cite an ounce of the D1 story. You replaced in, cookie for you, but if you're going to waste your vote on me, the least you can do is make sure the shoe fits.

The last game I lost as town was Spies 6 on another site, and I lost it by overtrusting two players--clearing them from D2 to D12 based on crafty buswork. So no, I don't like to utterly clear players unless there's a damned good reason. CTD and Shanba are untouchable as far as I'm concerned, and Gurgi has given me enough town vibes that I wouldn't lynch him today and I'd have trouble lynching him tomorrow. CES has given me enough town vibes that I'll ignore things like his one mathematically poor reason for voting Huck (Glork cleared him) and Shanba (because Glork is either right or scum) over Glork--ignore them for now. Your play is so protective of scum right now that I don't see fit to clear you even though a lot of other people seem to want to. You protected the shit out of Glork and right now you almost certainly have scum in your #2-#5 suspicion slots but you're protecting them by leaving your vote on me.

I also lynched a townie or two in that Spies 6 game due to confirmation bias. I convinced myself that they were scum, and then went digging for evidence to support that fact. I found lots. It made it really easy for scum to pile on, because the evidence was so convincing. And a few scum were able to look like geniuses for saying "i dunno, my gut tells me that townie's not scum, MBL." Since then, I've tried not to lock in on people, and more present evidence that I see supporting both sides of the argument and let people decide whether one side makes more sense than the other. I have my opinions, and I have my vote, but I'm not really going to try to drive the town. I am going to ask questions for clarification when town isn't making sense, because it may point to scum. Glork wasn't making sense, I asked him a ton of questions about it, and it turned out he was scum. So I suppose you're right--I need to follow through on the answers more, but calling the questions useless/pointless is dumb. I'm just going to have Shanba in every game to follow up on the answers for me. Guy makes a lot of sense when he puts his mind to it.

As for your self-meta, Ether, which you've brought up my nonresponse to like 12 times:

As for my meta, I could go on for hours.

It's...probably clear to everyone by this point that I'm only effective when I've got a combo running. The longer it's been since my last post, the harder it is for me to make a new one, and I can pretty much only develop useful reads once my nails are securely in place. That just doesn't happen at all when I'm scum; the differences aren't subtle at all, and I'm probably one of the ten easiest people to read on the site if you know what you're doing. (I used to hammer this in constantly, until I realized that I wasn't getting lynched either way and I was sick of talking about myself.) I don't really know how I'd play as replacementscum specifically, or even if I'd still be the person controlling this slot. The last time I was scum, I was constantly putting off posting until late night/early morning, making a post a few paragraphs long and falling right back into my regular patterns without so much as one of the late night marathons you saw from me here on Day 2. I could give links, but really, I'd rather just not.

You're basically saying you don't post much as scum? That's a pretty easy one to turn around if you put your mind to it, but I take your point. You don't have "your nails in" this game, so your reads are scattered. I assume your reads are more confident as scum before you "get a combo going"? I'll bite--please link me to a game of yours as scum and as town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Porochaz and Huck:

"How is your play as scum different from your play in this game?"


Also, Poro, these were your reads from three weeks ago:

Shanba, MBL, CTD, stark, Gurgi town
chamber CDB, Huck null
CES scum

Has anything changed since then? Did the Glork flip or the cases being made today change your opinions of anyone? Have the nulls given you any better reads since then? What's the main reason you're not voting right now?

CDB seems to think there's lots of evidence to tie Glork to two of your nulls/scumreads. Do you agree?

[MrBuddyLee]

Huck, can you please give more fleshed-out thoughts of how you view CDB?

[MrBuddyLee]

I hope you're scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

H.H. - same opinion as my summary of him in my reread
CDB - Chronic Lurker, same as me, pretty much, except from my point of view, I think that Im being more accessable than him. Looking at the game more as a whole, he seems to have made a load of excuses
CES - I didnt like CES in my reread, I havent really noticed him since. Im going to look through his posts at a later date
Gurgi - Flying very much under the radar
Chamber - Not much of an opinion, need to iso him as well

You don't seem to think anyone is scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Just thought of something.

If CDB was town and Huck was scum, scum would be ALL OVER the CDB wagon right now. They have me and CTD to hide behind. Obvtownie and cop. You couldn't get better cover.

Instead, two townies sit alone on CDB.

[MrBuddyLee]

Huck could be scum, I'm just saying it's unlikely that {CDB is town and Huck is scum}. So unless you think they're both town, CDB is probably scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Porozac's the only other major option, unless town busts a new move. I'd be tempted to vote him over HH, but it's a close call. Looks like only Shanba and Ether remain from the last serious Zacwagon, and HH would obviously be on him as well.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't buy what MBL is serving

What, specifically, don't you buy?

[MrBuddyLee]

HackerHuck (5) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Zorblag
ChannelDelibird (2) -- CrashTextDummie, MrBuddyLee
Porochaz (1) -- HackerHuck
MrBuddyLee (1) -- Ether

Not voting: Porochaz

Stated reasons for voting HackerHuck:

Flying under the radar, lurking, gut, the Glrok innocent result.

(My comment: the Glork result is a horrid reason to tack on, and without it, CES's read could just as easily be on CDB or Poro)

This is the main thing that I'm seeing with HH, that he just doesn't seem to be that bothered that he's not really having a great deal of influence on the game. Like, we keep seeing town corpses and he's just kind of sitting contentedly on the fact that he thinks Ether is scum. He's taken the points for taking an unsheeply stance on her but looks pretty happy not to have that tested any time soon.

Vote: HackerHuck

for now, subject to change if I find someone scummier but I'm interested enough to see where this goes.

(Not sure what I think about this. Pretty thin argument. Lazy man's genius? )

So I'm more in favour of lynching Huck today than I am MBL. VOTE: Huck

This is a really long post with very little substance amongst a sea of lurkers. Active lurker alert.

See, saying the guy you just took your opinions from is scum is not kosher with me.

(Sound observations.)

The key things I think about Hackerhuck's play are the poor reads. It's one thing to be

wrong

, to make mistakes, it's another to have bad analysis/reasoning for your reads. I think the latter is significantly scummier. Particularly, I'm not seeing that he has any feel for the game in the way I might expect a good townie to - there's no sense of

when something happens

, he turns around and goes "whoa, what was that!" All the analysis he did, more or less, is rereading the thread. I think this is an indication of scumminess - I think town react far more to what's going on than scum do, and it's been setting off my gut for a while."

There is some immediate reacting going on, but when it happens it's fairly blunt. Like with inhim, he just goes "oh your claim is scummy

vote inhim

." I think that's honestly fairly opportunistic, and I think a townier approach to the wagon would involve more "WTF" and less "OMG VOTE INHIM". I'd note there's very little emotion in his play, but that there's also little of the in depth analysis that non-passionate players (the likes of vollkan etc.) tend to thrive on. It could be a playstyle thing, but it feels totally off.

His reads have been the same since pretty much his first post of day 2 - in particular, he's thought me and ether are scummy since his first votecount analysis thingy of that day. MBL, have your reads been the same since then? And yet he's not tunneling on us exactly. Sometimes people get locked into a viewpoint where they go "rah x is scum and damn the consequences I am gonna lynch the bastard" but then they tend to be actively pursuing the guy for as long as the madness lasts. People with weaker, less passionate reads tend to be more likely to let go. It's rare, I think, for someone to think that a person is scummy, get convinced that someone else is scummier and lynch them, and then go back to having the first guy as a mid level suspect, which is roughly how I'd characterise his play.

This is a post made mostly by my gut and theorycrafting. Logical rational shit doesn't come into it much here because a lot of my read on hackerhuck

is

gut and this is my attempt to quantify it.

(Sound observations.)

The HackerHuck lynch is find today and is probably my top choice. A huge part of that is how he's interacted with Glork. It seems like there were a couple times when he was coming up with short lists that included Glork and somehow Glork just never got into the picture. I disliked how he reacted to the claim yesterday and he spent more energy than I think was reasonable arguing against a Glork lynch even as it became more apparent that it was a decent way to go (but without going the over the top mindless being wrong route that Ether took.) The day one switch to a wagon that no one else was on when we were almost at deadline doesn't feel like a town move and overall I feel that he's just not a pro-town presence.

(Well-argued, nuanced point about interactions with known scum.)

Start of D4:
Ether votes Huck (1-0)
CES votes Huck (2-0)
CDB votes Huck (3-0)
The Cop votes CDB (3-1)
Ether wavers, cites Huck's vote on Porochaz
Shanba says he wants Huck dead today (4-1)
Ether hops off Huck for a very shallow reason (3-1-1)

Ether, why did you hop off Huck and stay off all day?

[MrBuddyLee]

Zorblag's town, which makes sense on top of the way chamber came across. And I'm going to go read the days before the Glorkclaim again. My last read had me convinced that it was Glork's paranoia about a vigging, carried over from day two once he saw that DGB wasn't in fact the vig. He wanted to avoid getting personally lynched, and he'd laid grounds for the cop claim either late day 2 or early day 3. He discouraged vigs of CES and to a lesser extent CDB. (He wanted CDB investigated/vigged, but behind Shanba/Yos.)

[MrBuddyLee]

"How is my play as scum different from my play in this game?"

When I'm scum, I worry about needing to look protown. This is one of the biggest sources of my tendency to bus early and hard. I'm so used to being successful as town that I pretty much go into games as scum thinking "okay, how am I going to look successful without being too successful so that we can't win the game." Here, I was acutely aware of my inactivity D1, and I don't think I've been too concerned about looking protown. And goodness knows the results haven't agreed with Glorkscum. I don't much care with what other people think of me here, provided they don't try to string me up for it -- which is fairly typical of Glorktown.

I sort of feel like this is California Trilogy III all over again, and at some point the scums are going to jump on my poor performance as an excuse to run up a wagon on me.

[MrBuddyLee]

I have a huge problem with chamber's vote. Not once has he mentioned being suspicious of Porochaz today. He's mentioned several times how he could go for a Glork lynch. And now he votes Porochaz while still claiming to be more suspicious of Glork. It makes no sense to me at all.

Let me be perfectly clear about this:

I am not convinced that Porochaz is scum. I would rather lynch CDB out of the two.

Glork is scum. He has been countered, he has slipped big time and he has been flailing ever since he has been countered (when he wasn't on V/LA, that is). The Porochaz wagon is therefore bullshit. Please act accordingly.

Yeah.

Glork-HH-Prozac seems extremely likely

. Just need to find the last buddy, assuming four scum.

I'm reasonably confident that the scum are

Glork-HH-Prozac-chamber/CDB

. Of course, I'm not exactly a beacon of accuracy in this game so...

If Glork is scum:

CTD, Shanba, Gurgi, and Ether are all town. They should vote together and the two town among the remaining six should sheep them.

Of the remaining four, CES looks bad on his own but things suggest that he is not scum with Glork.

Prozac is next in line

and is connected to both Glork and

HH

, which makes sense in the big picture. CDB is lurky and occasionally bad; chamber I've gone back and forth on. One of those two is the last scumbag. Good luck.

11) Ythill - 2 Shot Vigilante - killed night 3

[MrBuddyLee]

what are you getting out of that, mbl? I note you're voting cdb.

Obviously, it suggests that Prozac is more likely scum than CDB, based on the nightkill. Unless they played WIFOM, but thus far they've appeared to play the odds, killing roles and trying to get townies lynched during the day rather than busing each other.

I still don't understand why Glork would play D2 the way he did if CDB is town. Plus the protection of Tripod D1. He seemed to spend more time clearing CDB than Prozac, though there are definitely a few instances where he said Prozac was scummy but not AS scummy as someone else.

Glork is scum and so are CDB and Porochaz in all likelihood.

CTD also went after Huck and chamber and seemed more positive on CES, I believe. There has to be a reason why he was left alive and Ythill was gassed. Of course, it could be as simple as "Ythill schooled Glork, and was too dangerous to leave around."

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL is inching his way down there.

Why, because Ether says so? I don't think my play's changed since D1/D2, so I'm fascinated to find out why you're suddenly finding me scummy.

[MrBuddyLee]

I haven't found anything in Glork's and HH's interactions that sticks out as being buddy evidence but I haven't found anything that makes it less likely either, and so I have them down as buddies because I find HH scummy independently. The evidence for the scumteam is in Glork-Prozac-CES, and I think HH is probably part of that team too.

I think there's plenty of evidence suggesting a scumteam of Glork-HH-Prozac-CES.

So when you said this, you actually weren't talking about specific evidence tying them (Glork-HH) together? I see and am ok with your thin associations between Glork and CES/Prozac.


How come you never said anything critical about Glork's play/alignment until after he was counterclaimed? You barely remarked upon him at all, and he was really pretty active. He commented on you a lot. You seemed to ignore him.

[MrBuddyLee]

I would like to know who Shanba thinks the scum are, but before he speaks I suppose you can all say whether he should or not and why.

[MrBuddyLee]

I suppose you can consider my comments a tentative vote against "no conversation", CES.

[MrBuddyLee]

For the record, at least two scum are supporting no lynch right now.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm here and listening.

[MrBuddyLee]

Whatever. Claim.

Says the gal who's been "wrong" about everything this game. Nice job on that no-lynch, by the way.

[MrBuddyLee]

The one that you did your best to fuck up by having Shanba out himself as vanilla first?

What are you talking about?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm a VT.

Glrok still needs to die.

[MrBuddyLee]

Uh...if that was an attempt to be helpful, thanks? That's not Shanba.

You said CES hadn't claimed. I thought I might have recalled a claim and checked, and actually, he's claimed. So can you please explain why you thought that Shanba giving his suspects would have been a bad thing yesterday?

Gurgi, do you give a crap whether you or I claim first?

[MrBuddyLee]

Vanilla, like it matters at this point.

Ythill and stark, possibly among others, pushed the argument that the Tripod wagon was weak. CTD disagreed and Glork was on the fence but flopped to Ecto. chamber (your seat) hopped off UT, as did CES, who cited stark as he switched to Ecto.

[MrBuddyLee]

I just wanted to see the guy's thought processes on who's scum and who isn't. I don't really get the whole claim obsession.

[MrBuddyLee]

Shanba was the obvious kill last night. If he was a power role, he absolutely needed to claim first. But the converse of that meant him posting

without

a claim pretty much meant softclaiming vanilla. (That made the balance between giving him ample time to claim and not looking like I was giving him ample time to claim kind of awkward. I dunno about Gurgi/Porochaz/CES's votes, but I waited until I knew Shanba had been on AIM for a bit before placing my vote.)

So wait, you suspected Shanba might be a power role, so you urged a fast no-lynch so he could be nightkilled before he gave results or his suspicions? Please clarify.

[MrBuddyLee]

The one that you did your best to fuck up by having Shanba out himself as vanilla first?

Really I just want CES to give some results at this point. Then I'll deal with you whether you've made up a claim or not.

Please explain what results you were expecting from CES and why.

[MrBuddyLee]

That's not what that says at all, MBL.

I see it now. She claims to have suspected you had a role, and thus she wanted Shanba dead instead of you. It smells funny, and I want to see what Ether's up to here. Granted, at least two townies rushed to kill off Shanba, so it's not necessarily a scumtell, but I want to hear people's logic behind their decisions.

[MrBuddyLee]

Porochaz, why am I scum?

Well, I could say the push on the two lurkers and the person Ive found most townie in this game or the fact that you were completely and utterly wrong about Glork and went so far as not to just disagree with the opinion but to strongly defend him.

That first post of starks keeps coming back to haunt me as well.

Porochaz, what post of stark's were you referring to here, and why did it bother you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Hmm. Wasn't expecting that at all. HH being town doesn't really affect how I see Prozac and CES, but that does rather throw the cat amongst the pigeons. Still feeling Zorblag as town after my chamber reread and still feeling Ether as town from stark's play more than anything. Gotta think about MBL and Gurgi, I guess.

Vote: Porochaz

Hi. Can we not vote yet?

CES, what do you think of these posts?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether, please tell me why I am scum. Your past theories have been:

* some repressed desire to lynch MBL from somewhere that has nothing to do with his alignment in this game
* Glork is an insane cop with an innocent result on MBL that actually means guilty
* that I didn't pursue your self-meta more aggressively
* "asking questions and not drawing conclusions"
* "silly inner conflicts over MBL"
* some theory that involved Glork clearing two scumpartners with the world's worst-thought-out cop claim

The last player who had to stretch to ridiculous lengths to try and make me look scummy was... Glork:

* MBL is coaching his scumpartner Ecto
* Ecto and MBL are scum in separate factions
* MBL is now trying to make everyone on the Ectowagon (particularly Glork) look bad by questioning the validity of the wagon--MBL is scum if Ecto is town


Please make your case, Ether. Explicitly. I have been very patient with your nonsense, but I'd like to hear your FULL case. That's how the game is played. All day yesterday you spouted "Huck + MBL" "Huck + MBL" with a side dose of Porochaz. Huck is dead. You were wrong. You're wrong about me as well. Now make your case so we can see what it's all about. If you are town and you stick with me as your top suspect, we're sunk. If you're scum, you won't be able to defend your case on me. So please give it a shot--town benefits regardless.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, what do you think of those posts?

I think I probably wouldn't mind seeing that vote go back on. I didn't figure CES would either, based on his previous comments.

If the scumteam is {CES, Ether, Zorblag} or {CES, Ether, Gurgi} or {CES, Zorblag, Gurgi} or {Ether, Zorblag, Gurgi} then we lose if CDB votes Porochaz.

Otherwise, there's no harm in it. So the question is, who sees one of those four scumteams as likely? Or from your perspectives, swap in MBL for yourself and mull it over.


Also, Ether, from all accounts you appear to heavily suspect Porochaz. Which makes it a little unusual that you'd try to discourage a vote on him. It also looked a tiny bit like coaching, but if you genuinely have doubt about Porochaz's alignment then your play there can be interpreted as pro-town. After you take your time explaining your case on me, please explain your case on Porochaz.