Mini 1088: Cookie Thief Mafia (Game Over)

[Llamarble]

Unvote. Vote: Darox

All of his posts are content free and there are a lot of them.
Wasting time talking about the nature of RVS instead of reading the game for scumtells makes it look like you're scum trying to avoid a lurking label and avoiding ruffling feathers by not actually participating.
The decision not to place a random vote also plays toward that goal.
We only get two weeks, so wasting time and refusing to make any statements about any players' alignments is scummier than usual.

Who are your suspects at this point and why?

[Kublai Khan]

@Elleran: Re: post 22 -- Why did you sarcastically accuse drmyshottyizsik of starting a wagon? He was the first and only to vote for andrew94 so far. Plus Darox had 2 votes at the time...

Why? For two reasons.

First reason: As an random vote.
Second reason: To get any reaction from the random player that I have chosen to randomly vote by providing an intentionally random reason.

So let me get your story straight. You random voted drmyshottyizsik and gave a joking reason that made no sense in order to provoke a reaction. drmyshottyizsik reacted. You declared it an overreaction and serious voted. You vow to keep your vote on him until you see a reason to move it. drmyshottyizsik says that the argument moved the game out of rvs. You respond by saying you're convinced of his innocence, yet you didn't unvote him.

Does that about sum it up correctly?

Why do I have to put down a meaningless vote that I will remove as soon as I see something genuinely voteworthy?

Most games I've played end their RVS ice breaking stuff with someone making a more serious vote based on someone else's "random" vote. Plus no vote is ever truly 100% random. If you choose not to vote, then you are shielding information about yourself to the rest of the players.

I'm going to

unvote: Rob Capone

and

vote: Darox

for his cageyness.

[FakeGod]

VoteCount 1.3

drmyshottyizsik (2): andrew94, Elleran
Darox (3): Zed, Llamarble, Kublai Khan
Elleran (3): drmyshottyizsik, Stigmata, PoisonIvy
Llarmarble (1): lewarcher82

Not voting: Darox, Furcolow

With 12 people alive, town needs 7 votes to lynch someone.

[Darox]

I prefer doing something interesting like fakeclaiming PGO as doctor instead of random voting.
Sadly, I am not always a doctor.
Plus none of you have anything interesting about you to make you stand out.

Oh wait, Furcolow is a dead VI in the other game I'm currently in, I guess he would be my go-to early vote.

[lewarcher82]

mmh, I will explain why Elleran looks like a VI to me.
First, he makes a random vote, and he does the most stupid mistake possible. When you give a non-serious/funny/sarcastic reason for your randon vote, you should never refer to in-game facts and mechanics. You say: I vote X because he smells, or because

he is not pretty enough

. You do not mention wagons, roles or in-game activity, cuz you risk to be (a) misunderstood or (b) attacked by other players.
Second, he decides to make the first half-serious vote based on Shotstick's reaction, but then naturally Shotstick is not fond of it, and Elleran is unable to take the pressure.
Third, he makes confused posts, that probably carry some players to overstate his contraddictions and even to see contraddictions that do not exist. "Where you serious or were you joking?" people ask, and he is unable to give the only reasonable answer: "I was joking about Shotstick starting a wagon, but I was serious about him overreacting".
Fourth: he states that Shotstick is town. A good player, regardless of the alignment, knows better.
Fifth: the BW on him reached L-3 in a very short time. This makes it likely that some mafia are on it. Now this is actually a very mild argument, because as mafia I would be glad to jump on an early wagon on a partner, being confident that early wagons are unlikely to end with a lynch; but still, using a bottom up procedure, the likelyhood of scum in the BW is high. Therefore I decided to keep my eye on the players on the BW and I had the feeling the the scummiest was Llamarble.

Not very scummy, actually, so I am not committing myself this early in game. But I am pretty convinced that Elleran is a VI and not scum.

@Shotstick: dude, you need to be more active, seriously.

[andrew94]

@Elleran: Re: post 22 -- Why did you sarcastically accuse drmyshottyizsik of starting a wagon? He was the first and only to vote for andrew94 so far. Plus Darox had 2 votes at the time...

Why? For two reasons.

First reason: As an random vote.
Second reason: To get any reaction from the random player that I have chosen to randomly vote by providing an intentionally random reason.

So let me get your story straight. You random voted drmyshottyizsik and gave a joking reason that made no sense in order to provoke a reaction. drmyshottyizsik reacted. You declared it an overreaction and serious voted. You vow to keep your vote on him until you see a reason to move it. drmyshottyizsik says that the argument moved the game out of rvs. You respond by saying you're convinced of his innocence, yet you didn't unvote him.

Does that about sum it up correctly?

Why do I have to put down a meaningless vote that I will remove as soon as I see something genuinely voteworthy?

Most games I've played end their RVS ice breaking stuff with someone making a more serious vote based on someone else's "random" vote. Plus no vote is ever truly 100% random. If you choose not to vote, then you are shielding information about yourself to the rest of the players.

I'm going to

unvote: Rob Capone

and

vote: Darox

for his cageyness.

let me get this straight. you seem to be attacking elleran , yet you sheep the person before you and vote for darox

[Llamarble]

I prefer doing something interesting like fakeclaiming PGO as doctor instead of random voting.
Sadly, I am not always a doctor.
Plus none of you have anything interesting about you to make you stand out.

Oh wait, Furcolow is a dead VI in the other game I'm currently in, I guess he would be my go-to early vote.

So you still have made no votes or reads...
There are things to think about. You could have discussed your own wagon or Elleran and the players on his.
Instead you serve up more time-wasting and refusal to step into the fray, both of which are anti-town.
Trying to coast through the early stages of the game under the radar is scummy.

@Lew:
Playing like a VI doesn't make someone town, it just makes them a VI, which is a null tell.
Why are you convinced Elleran is a town VI?
I see nothing in your discussion of Elleran suggesting your town read on Elleran is based on evidence.
This is scummy because scum are the ones who aren't trying to figure out alignments based on posting (they already know them).
Also this:
"I am not committing myself this early in game."
Is an odd wording suggesting you are more focused on appearance than on contributing.

Scumlist so far:
Darox for coasting/time wasting/refusal to scumhunt.
He's reducing information available to town while seeking to avoid ruffling feathers.

Elleran for contradicting himself and handing out a baseless townread; scum are more likely to self-contradict because they aren't stating what they actually think about the game.

Lew for tossing out a townread with zero evidence for it and saying he doesn't want to commit himself.

[Darox]

The wagon on me is a joke.

The wagon on Elleran is a mishmash of poor wording and poor play from both sides.
Neither are terribly interesting.

[lewarcher82]

your way of distributing your FoS's is even more interesting than the speed of that BW of yours... my evidence may be close to zero, but yours is close to zero, too. Implying my evidence is increased by the lack of evidence your BW is based on.

a VI means VILLAGE idiot, or at least this is how I use it, implying "town". I normally use the word "scumnoob" when I refer to the mafia-version of it.

You are absolutely correct when you say that Elleran could behave noobish and be scum, this is something I always say, as well. However, the policy I adopt is that if there are NO reasons whatsoever indicating that we are dealing with a scumnoob and not with a VI, then pressure on the player is dangerous.

In other games, in- and offsite, I have put noobs under pressure at the beginning of day 1, but only when I find at least some reasons to think they are scumnoobs. For instance posting filler, jumping on BW's, active lurking... in other words, your argument is only valid if there are other scumtells than the noobish behaviour, and this is not the case, at least in my opinion.

Also, I must insist on the speed of the BW. I am surprised that none of the voters is bothered by the fact the BW got to L-3 so quickly.

[lewarcher82]

EBWOP: post #83 is directed to Llamarble

[RobCapone]

why do you feel that you should not place a random vote in RVS?

Not going to fly, burden of proof is in your court.

Why do I have to put down a meaningless vote that I will remove as soon as I see something genuinely voteworthy?

there is no burden of proof on me, what the hell are you talking about.

Unvote, Vote:Darox

[Darox]

Actually, there is.
You are the one calling for action as opposed to inaction.
I have clearly stated why I think random voting is not worth worrying about, if you want me to place a vote in spite of this, you must convince me why it is necessary.

Do you understand what the burden of proof means? Your reaction and vote seem to imply otherwise. What do you think I'm talking about?
Or perhaps you believe not random voting is voteworthy? Please clarify.

[lewarcher82]

For the second time in 4 pages someone hits L-3.

[Darox]

Pft, we can do better than that.

Vote: Darox

There, now we're L-2

[lewarcher82]

I guess I have used the label VI too soon in this game, or I was wrong assuming there was just one.

[Kublai Khan]

I prefer doing something interesting like fakeclaiming PGO as doctor instead of random voting.
Sadly, I am not always a doctor.
Plus none of you have anything interesting about you to make you stand out.

Huh. If only you had a way to coax people into doing something interesting. Like some game mechanic that pushes them closer to being knocked out of the game.

Not very scummy, actually, so I am not committing myself this early in game. But I am pretty convinced that Elleran is a VI and not scum.

Alright. I get what you're saying. I disagree and think you're cutting him too much slack, but I understand your position better.

let me get this straight. you seem to be attacking elleran , yet you sheep the person before you and vote for darox

How the hell is a summary of Elleran's play an attack on him?

I guess I have used the label VI too soon in this game, or I was wrong assuming there was just one.

WTF? Darox isn't giving you any scummy vibes at all?

[lewarcher82]

I guess I have used the label VI too soon in this game, or I was wrong assuming there was just one.

WTF? Darox isn't giving you any scummy vibes at all?

It was a joke. Actually, Darox's situation is different from Elleran's. He is posting filler, and this is a mild scumtell. And his posts do not help the game to proceed. And this is more than mild. So yes, Darox gives me scumvibes.
I just wanted to call him an idiot because I hate self-voters. Actually, self-voting is one more way he is refusing to cooperate with the rest of the town.

Some patterns may emerge, tho. I will think about it after work and let you know my conclusions.

[Furcolow]

i can guarantee a 50% chance of a lynch today

[Furcolow]

of it being on scum
well, near guarantee

[Furcolow]

vote: robcapone

my role pm gives me the impression that either rob or poisonivy is mafia

[lewarcher82]

Interesting, but did u think about all the consequences of such a statement before posting? Assume you are wrong; assume we lynch rob; assume he is town; then scum thinks: hey guys, let's night kill furco (because it's a good plan/because he is prolly not just a VT). Then we have no chance to know what happened exactly, and if Poison is town too, tomorrow will be a very bad day for her and for everyone.
Also: you made a half-claim. This is a very risky strategy, too.

In other words: convince me you are right and convince me it was worth it.

[Kublai Khan]

Starting to be too many Is for this V.

vote: robcapone

my role pm gives me the impression that either rob or poisonivy is mafia

So you're going ahead with a two person lynch plan because of an impression?

I've got a wild theory was to what your role is and why you have that impression. If it's what I think it is, then you made a bad play.

[lewarcher82]

I am afraid I have the same theory Kublai has... seems sadly evident, actually.

[andrew94]

@kublai i said you seemed to be attacking elleran. your points are not in favour of elleran.

what role pm impression?

[Kublai Khan]

@kublai i said you seemed to be attacking elleran. your points are not in favour of elleran.

If my points are not in favor of Elleran, then that reflects on Elleran not me.

I am afraid I have the same theory Kublai has... seems sadly evident, actually.

Yeah. I'm going to keep mum on it until RobCapone and PoisonIvy have a chance to weigh in. The WIFOM is going to be brutal on this one.

unvote Darox for now given this new development.