Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[Budja]

@Ythan,Plague, anyone who said Erratus was vote-hopping, pushing weak cases, getting serious about trivial matters, spamming is correct.
But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

[Ythan]

@Ythan,Plague, anyone who said Erratus was vote-hopping, pushing weak cases, getting serious about trivial matters, spamming is correct.
But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

Did I say any of those things? No. Are scum tells town tells? No. I'm not saying those are scum tells but it looks like you're saying that acting scummy is townish.

[Ythan]

I like Ythan's points against the penpen slot, and he gets further town points for having a MM avatar.

It's actually OoT.

[Budja]

I don't understand. You *asked* me to elaborate.
Tells can be scum/town/null depending of context. Some tells people are reading as scum tells are town tells.

[Ythan]

If I ask you to elaborate that doesn't mean that whatever you say has to be perfect and beyond criticism. Especially when what you say is this.

But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

This is the old "acting suspicious is a town tell" argument. And it's not true. And I know of no way to come to this conclusion from a town perspective.

[Ythan]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

Okay, then explain how NE is using false logic to say that penpen's post has no content.

I don't like that you specifically cast this as being about the lack of content. That was half of the post. The other half was obvious bad logic.[/quote]
I'd like a response to this.

[Ythan]

Why are you getting so worked up for? That doesn't bound well for you. I think he was probably trying to say that you vote-hopped excessively, hence "ultra-quick wagoning" (since you started wagoning, or attempted to). I can see your logic, though, and agree partly to it.

Do you have a problem with his reasoning? Because you shifted attention to his tone for some reason.

That's YOUR opinion, not HIS, and imposing yourself on him like that, while also accusing him of DISTORTING facts (not true) is bad.

What was he distorting exactly?

Fatso, you should read the wiki a bit. Not take it as granted, of course, but read it. Online mafia can be drastically different from offline mafia, specially in what concerns scumtells.

Telling him to read the wiki doesn't help. If you think there's something specific he needs to read you should tell him. Otherwise this looks like an active lurking line.

[Maemuki]

EA is really getting on my nerves for getting so damn worked up for a stupid issue like that. Dude, chill out.

Still extremely happy with my vote; Budja isn't exactly redeeming himself.

Exilon, I'm sure I know you from somewhere too. And it's the end of the world and you know it!

[Ythan]

I would barely call that worked up. It certainly should not be shifting attention away from the content of his posts.

[Maemuki]

I would barely call that worked up. It certainly should not be shifting attention away from the content of his posts.

I gotta admit I had to try at least 5 times to read them...

....and I still don't get EA's case. Oh well, I tried.

[Ythan]

EA, I don't think you're being particularly unreasonable, but consider that some players are more likely to address your points if you keep calm. If you get excited it gives people something to talk about without really answering the content of your posts.

[Ythan]

Eh, I'm not sure about this one, so:

Unvote: Erratus Apathos

But seriously, the whole "I'm town, I'm town, I'm town... etc. thing was really annoying and rather scummy.

What's to be sure about? You placed the vote because he spammed.

No real opinion. I just voted for you because of the "I'm town" ordeal. Which, by the way, comes off as very scummy to me. Where I come from, scum use things like that all the time. It's sort of reverse psychology. Only scum would yell out "I'm town!" (generally), so scummy's use it to make people think "well only scum would do that, and scum know that, so even they wouldn't do that, so they must not be scum."
I just reread that, and I'm not sure if it made any sense, but I'm really tired, so I'll post it anyway.

Where do you come from? Wifombia? I don't buy it when someone takes wifom to a specific degree and uses it as an absolute to support a position. Your reasoning could come to the exact opposite conclusion just as easily. Maybe they'd think like you and say "People like Fatso consider this scummy so I would never do it as scum."

But seriously, I do really want to know where you're from if you're going to use foreign meta to support your position.

[Ythan]

This is over the top though. I don't see why town would get so worked up over this. Perhaps I was too hasty to hand out a town read.

Your town read was based on his logic. You drop it based on his tone. Dislike.

[Ythan]

Uh, moz? You're not exactly helping us get out of RVS, you know.

I don't think that most players were either, at that time, including yourself actually.

Could you please answer ICE's questions and try to get us out of it, pretty please?

RQS does nothing to end RVS.

Well, I guess that was the end of the RVS everybody.

Why this?

Also, you're the one who brought up penpen's sitewide replacements, and I asked afterward if anyone knows if these were his first games. Do you?

[Ythan]

anyone else find EA's answers a bit vague? covering his tracks for later scum lurking?

UNVOTE VOTE ERRATUS APPOTUS

This is more vague than anything he posted. Be specific.

[Erratus Apathos]

I don't like that you specifically cast this as being about the lack of content. That was half of the post. The other half was obvious bad logic.

I'd like a response to this.

What are you expecting? I thought AGar's "false logic" referred to NE saying penpen had no content, he clarified what it was about, I moved on. I don't see anything else to say about it.

[Ythan]

scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting. This read depends on his playstyle. What is wrong with this logic?

I doubt that it's true and there is no evidence to persuade me. It is admittedly unreliable if it admittedly depends on style. That's two answers.

[Ythan]

Vote: EA (erratus apathos)

for ultra-quick wagoning and spamming FoS's.

I'm in the neither of these is true camp. I'm also in the it's not an opinion, it's an untrue fact camp.

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

Not exactly what you accused him of.

Generally, I believe that people who react like that are generally scum. It's the same as a guilty person calling a lawyer, while an innocent person shouldn't have to.

Untrue. To attack a player and then attack them again for defending is no good.

Just because you say that I was wrong doesn't make it true, no matter how much effort you put into it. I have a direct example for that, but it's an ongoing game that I'm dead in so I can't say anything about it.

Then you don't have an example.

[Ythan]

Penpen/Budja, Plague, maybe Evil. You are my top suspects. Answering questions better than your competitors will save you from my vote.

[Exilon]

First off, my bad on the omgus accusation on my second post. It was obviously not a case of omgus and it created a bit of ruckus that shouldn't have existed. I usually say counter-voting the one who just voted you is OMGUS, although there is more behind it. In any case, that accusation wasn't totally serious.

So you're saying my random-voting stage vote needs to be NOT random?

No. wtf, where did you get the idea that I said that? Other people cast blatantly random votes and I didn't attack them.

I got that idea from the fact you called on me because I supposedly had a reason to vote Ythan instead of you, and I didn't. When you say that, you're ignoring the fact it is RVS and, as bolded:

So you're saying I called Ythan scum based on this QUESTION, BEFORE he even posted:

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

Uh... duh? "So Ythan, you're scum this time" is blatantly calling someone scum. The "yes?" on the end doesn't change that, because you're not asking Ythan if he is scum, you are calling him scum and then asking him for confirmation.

This is what people mean when they say you're arguing about semantics. Look how tenaciously you are interpreting the "yes" portion of the sentence, even though you've been told the intention behind the sentence several times, which would eliminate the need to do that.

Firstly, as long as the question isn't rethorical (And even if it was, it couldn't be considered anything else than a joke), there is implied doubt, no matter how it is structured. Second, if I'm asking confirmation on the fact he's scum, then, as said, it means there is DOUBT, effectively making it a question.

That aside, the POINT is you're taking something seriously that you shouldn't.

You voted me because you believed I was calling ythan scum, yet voted you. Yet you totally failed to reason there was no possible way for me to call him scum (because there was nothing at the time), which destroys that reasoning.

(And in that case, we're (I'm) left with only one other option that remotely justifies your counter-vote: OMGUS. Do you see now where it comes from? You might say you didn't justify your vote like that, but scum usually mask their reasons, so it's not totally unreasonable to think that way.)

Bullshit! Two FoS's is obviously not spamming. Why are you distorting the facts so terribly?

That's YOUR opinion, not HIS

No, actually these aren't anyone's opinions.

These are facts.

I FoS'd twice. That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

See? There you go again. Don't impose yourself like that. "it is normal for townies to have two fso's out" IS, no matter how you put it, an opinion. Why? Look at your adjective: "normal". There is no OBJECTIVE way to define the word normal. Even further, saying something is "normal" comes from your perspective and your perspective only. In your experience, that might happen a lot, but for example, in my case, I rarely see FOS's.

I might be repeating Plague a bit here, but I feel this is important.
Two fos's might even be normal, but maybe two fos's in the same post in the beginning game might not be as so. This can be anyone's opinion, and you yelling TELLING them "YOU'RE WRONG, IT IS NOT OPINION, IT IS FACT" is not going to change that. As I said,

there's a great difference between arguing and disagreeing and simply imposing yourself.

Sorry this is a bit lengthy, but I wanted to leave this very clear.

See that? That's quote-spamming. Or the post where I spammed "I'm town!" I'm saying the same exact thing, way more than is necessary, to the point where it can be considered annoying. Those things are spamming.

Two FoS's is not spamming

. Period. You lose, scum.

I don't think you quite got what he meant by spamming fos. the word spamming seemed to me like a way of saying there was too much of it than he liked. It was a bit exaggerated, true, but it was a way to get the point across.

---

Why are you getting so worked up for? That doesn't bound well for you. I think he was probably trying to say that you vote-hopped excessively, hence "ultra-quick wagoning" (since you started wagoning, or attempted to). I can see your logic, though, and agree partly to it.

Do you have a problem with his reasoning? Because you shifted attention to his tone for some reason.

I did a bit, in fact, since I found it to be a bit off. I can see part of his reasoning (as stated), but felt the way he delivered it was a bit over the top.

Fatso, you should read the wiki a bit. Not take it as granted, of course, but read it. Online mafia can be drastically different from offline mafia, specially in what concerns scumtells.

Telling him to read the wiki doesn't help. If you think there's something specific he needs to read you should tell him. Otherwise this looks like an active lurking line.

Because I don't think there was anything exactly specific I think he should read. The main point was that, in general, the wiki helps to get a somewhat reliable grasp on what online mafia is as opposed to offline mafia, at least in my opinion.

For now, I think this is all. I'll see if I can post later.

[Exilon]

EBWOP: Those last two quotes should be separated. My reply is inside that large box.

[AGar]

The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.

You still haven't explained what is wrong with my reasoning, and you haven't addressed my later clarification post on the subject, so I'll clarify it again: scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting.

What's wrong with your reasoning?

It's fucking moonbeams, that's what.

---

Let's break down EA's rage here.

1. You can say why you voted for someone all you want.

I don't fucking believe you.

2. Just because you think it's normal for a townie to have two FoSes out, doesn't make it the de facto normal. I never FoS personally. I think they're a waste of time. You're overreacting to that. Someone thought it was scummy you did it. You can't say "No, that's not a fact. This is a fact!" It's is not a "fact" that it is normal for townies to have two FoSes out. Get the fuck over it.

@Ythan,Plague, anyone who said Erratus was vote-hopping, pushing weak cases, getting serious about trivial matters, spamming is correct.
But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

This. This is fail logic.

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form to prove he wasn't casting an OMGUS vote. He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

[RedCoyote]

My vote just gets more and more justified.

Wait, no, he replaced out of the other game he was in too, apparently. My mistake. But it doesn't detract from his earlier scumminess.

This is a silly premise to begin with.

---

I really don't like the wagon on Erratus at all. I feel like AGar is the only person who is even remotely justified in their vote on him. There is very probably scum somewhere on the wagon of people with weak votes on him.

I get the same impression.

---

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

You're dodging the point though. EA has been the first voter, so your accusations that he is looking for "quick-wagons" is unwarranted.

---

That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT.

Your blowing this issue out of proportion multiple times looks desperate.

---

No, I didn't. I said that you're trying to create town-on-town arguments. I never said that you were a part of those arguments. You're trying to get people to attack each other by making it seem like everyone is suspicious.

There's a thin line between what you're saying here and what an ideal VT should be trying to do, imo. Why are you so sure that EA is causing townies to argue with other townies?

[lewarcher82]

Votecount 1.4

Fatso -0
Necessary Evil -0
mozamis -0

theplague42 -3 (Erratus Apathos, RedCoyote, Budja)

Ythan -0
ICEninja -0
RedCoyote -0
Klazam -0
Exilon -0
Budja -2 (Necessary Evil, Maemuki)

Erratus Apathos -3 (Exilon, AGar, theplague42)

Maemuki -0
AGar -1 (Klazam)

Not Voting: Fatso, Ythan, ICEninja, mozamis

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is March, 18th 2011 at 11:00 AM German Time (GMT+1)

[theplague42]

@mod
I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

Erratus, you're still mixing opinions with facts and misinterpreting my case.
1. It's my personal opinion that FoS's are a scumtell. It's not a fact.
2. Budja's logic for defending you is ridiculous. He says that you're doing scummy things, but for some reason claims that it's a towntell.
3. It was your intent to start an early bandwagon, even though it failed.
4. The desperation was that you completely OMGUS'ed someone, then claimed that you weren't. This was even pointed out by AGar IIRC. I view it as a scumtell because you wanted to avoid accusations of OMGUS in the RVS. OMGUS isn't even a scumtell in RVS, yet you really seemed to want to avoid being accused of it.