Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[Toro]

/confirm

Catching up now.

[Toro]

unvote: Spadille
vote: Snarky

And IGMEOY both.

Wouldn't the vote be considered an IGMEOY? Just saying.

So far from my read-through let me just get this off my chest, from the DK self-vote in the RVS I first thought that Spadille was pushing too hard on DK because of the self-vote but with the results that came out of it I now believe that DeityKabuto is a safe bet of being scum. I remember reading in one of his earlier postings (must go dig it up) he said something along the lines of "I will now try to scumhunt," at that point in time, why wouldn't you ACTUALLY want to start scumhunting? That threw up an instant red flag for me. His reasons for explaining himself was sheer OMGUS, could this just be newbish play? Sure. But I think there's something more to it. The number one reason why I want to pursue a DK lynch is also MuffinMan's #105 post. Why in the world would you want to keep a scum player around? They're scum! If you're a town member you shouldn't care if a person entertains you, if they're scum you should vote for them because they're scum. You're here to play the game, not to chat.

So I will end this post with...

Vote: DeityKabuto

If DK flips scum, I think MuffinMan should be the number one target for Day 2.

[Toro]

EBWOP: This one's going to be an eyesore.

It is surprising how the scum (Snarky, Archaist, Spadile) are all back on my wagon. Why? Because I attacked them. That is pretty much the internal drive for them coming back. I am certain that at least 1/3 of you on my wagon are scum. The others are probably confused townies.

Once again here you go with "Oh scum's back on my wagon." Then you go on with saying that only 1 of 3 on your wagon is scum, complete OMGUS.

I will respond to each of your counter-attacks later on today, anyways, you guys need to start pressuring Snarky, he is fucking scum/Anti-townie type of guy.

Bad attempt at deflection here.

Also, I claim Vanilla Townie.

Well how convenient, the one role in the game that scum could possibly claim.

The reason I say all of you are scum is because each one of you is over-reacting to my scumhunting/attacks on you. I can't lynch you all in one day, but you guys aren't contributing much.

OMGUS based on claimed OMGUS. Fun.

With that said, I am debating whether I should even bother commenting on your latest replies via my more recent wall.

How much experience do you have off-site playing mafia?

Snarky should be lynched today, and I don't know where you guys are bringing up the whole thing with ZMuffinMan and I, you guys are ignorant scum trying to make us look bad. Face the facts. I AM A TOWNIE. You scum, pretty much just lost.

Do you find it suspicious that MuffinMan would want to keep a scum around just so he could be entertained? Do you think that's good town-play or not?

You're right! Games are no place for fun and games. This is serious business.

Damn skippy you're right!

I need some elaboration on how it makes sense that I'm scum if DK flips scum. Surely if what I said was scummy, it would be scummy regardless of DK's flip. And if that's the case, it would be smarter to pile votes on me instead of DK.

You're the one sticking up for DK here, so it would make sense that if he was scum you could be a scumbuddy sticking up for him. If there's the possibility that DK flips town it doesn't completely clear your name. (At least in my eyes.)

I'm just putting this out there because you'd be the third or fourth person that has said "well zMuffinMan is scummy for doing that but I wanna see DK's flip because it's possible he's scum" - herpityderp, that's not a good reason for lynching DK and he's done nothing that indicates he's scum. I don't think I've done anything scummy, either, but apparently I have.

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip, I genuinely believe he's scum. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

And regarding the whole use of the Day Vig power cjdrum/[Low Key], I agree with cjd that it should probably be best used at the user's discretion, and preferrably not this day phase until we've all got a better idea on what alignments people could be. Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark, but come D2/D3 at least you'll have a better idea on who you're shooting at.

[Toro]

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip,

I genuinely believe he's scum

. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark...

So if the town agrees with your first quote, then how does your second quote make any sense?

So after vigging off DK, who would be your candidate for a lynch?

[Toro]

On that note, the fact I'm defending DK is only because there is no real case on him. He isn't going to flip scum. He's not the best player, but that doesn't make him scum.

Wait wait wait, so what you're saying is that the only reason why you said 'you wouldn't want to off DK even if he was scum' was because there's no real case on him? What makes you so sure that he

isn't

scum? Just meta?

[Toro]

I think you need to learn to tell the difference between an obviously sarcastic joke and me being serious.

If I thought DK was scum, I'd get rid of him, as fun as it is to read his posts. He's not scum. There is no case on him.

Quite honestly I'm having a tough time believing that this was just a sarcastic joke. Here's why...starting with your response to this...

Yes please, explanation of everything and especially your vote.
Why would you want to keep someone that will hurt the town?

DK isn't "hurting" town.

Damn right he is, he is causing a commotion. And what is this "keep him whether he's town or scum"?
MuffMan, town's number 1 agenda is to lynch town, and you want to keep them? I FoS you, dear sir.

Yeah, I have a good laugh when I read his posts. I like him. Even if he claimed goon, I wouldn't want him lynched D1.

Jumping down, this is in response to Snarky asking Spadille why he voted you.

Why on Earth would a town not want to lynch a claimed goon?

Well, there are actually a couple very sensible reasons why I wouldn't want to lynch someone who claims "goon". But DK is cool with me, if I'm ever feeling a bit depressed, I can count on his posts to cheer me up.

There are no exceptions to town, once someone claims mafia goon.. they lynch them. You can start by stating your sensible reasons on why you wouldn't want to lynch the mafia other than you think they are funny.

I said there are a couple sensible reasons not to lynch someone who claims "goon", but if you're asking me why I wouldn't lynch DK if he claimed goon, it would be because he's not an immediate threat and I would consider the possibility that somewhere in his mind he thinks it's a reasonable thing to do as town.

So what you were trying to say is that it'd be fine keeping a confirmed scum in the game if they were relatively ineffective, and now you're trying to pass it off as a joke? Sorry, there is no chance in hell I'm going to believe that.

FOS: zMuffinMan

[Toro]

I'm not sure how someone claiming goon makes them confirmed scum or how anyone can really be confirmed scum in this game pre-flip.

No one in their right mind would claim mafia goon, so if they did claim goon (which once again, is just ludicrous) should confirm them as scum, and if they do so, lynch 'em.

Nor am I sure where you're getting the idea that I'd keep him around if I really thought he was scum. You're trying too hard to find something that's not there.

You justified your stance earlier by offering an actual reason why you'd keep him around, and that was "he'd be a rather ineffective scum player." Don't say that I'm trying to find something that isn't there when it's literally right there (and just one post above yours.)

But, like I said, if you think what I did is scummy, DK's flip shouldn't matter and you should think I'm more likely scum than him, especially since

you have no real case on him

. Why not forget about DK, then? Since I'm calling him town, and I've done something you think is really scummy and you think I'm lying about it being a joke, why not go after me? Surely pursuing my lynch would be smarter, right?

Why are you trying to deflect attention off of DK? He claims he's scumhunting yet I've yet to see any real scumhunting from him, he's just pointing fingers mostly at those on his bandwagon shouting "YOU'RE SCUM! ALL THREE OF YOU ARE SCUM!" You might be right on DK being ineffective scum, but at the end of the day scum is scum, and they must hang.

[Toro]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

[Toro]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

oh the irony...

You can't shoot yourself in this game can you?

[Toro]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

This a scum slip declaring DK town ahead of time?

No, one of the twelve players in the game is vig, is DK exempt?

[Toro]

Unless in an extreme twist of fate, DK's the vig. :p

This a scum slip declaring DK town ahead of time?

No, one of the twelve players in the game is vig, is DK exempt?

The point is only 9 of those players are town.

Yes, and any one of them could be the vig. Same how any of the three members of the mafia team could be the vig. So DK could be the vig regardless of alignment.

[Toro]

@Toro: Btw you are conveniently tunnelled on Muffin/DK stuff. You promised us a catchup post right? Like a sorta gamewide analysis and such...?

Hey, I gravitate to what interests me the most, do you have any questions for me that I can answer?

[Toro]

Sure. Can you please give us your reads on the various players?

Why soitenly.

Blue = Town-Read/Vibe

Red = Scum-Read/Vibe

SnakePlissken

- I don't have much of a read on him at this moment as he's lurking, which is strange as I've seen his name pop up on the list of active board members a couple of hours ago.

Popsofc

town

- My gut says town about him even though his 107 didn't really raise an issue with MuffinMan over his whole not minding of keeping a scum DK around. Further evaluation of his upcoming play will give me a better idea on which side of the town/scum divide he's on.

zMuffinMan

- As you've clearly seen lately, I believe his stance on not wanting to lynch a scum DK has definitely got me suspicious, And I feel that after the vig (assuming it's not DK) offs DK, we can put the pressure on him.

cjd

rum

- Considering he's recently replaced in I'm going to have to wait a little while longer until I develop a firm read on him, my gut say's town so far.

Spa

dille

- Actively scumhunting, more so than some others in this thread so far he's leaning town to me.

[Low Key]

- So far you're appearing the most town-like to me, you're actively scumhunting and overall you've given me a pretty good read.

DeityKabuto

- Obv. scum is obvious, he's done nothing really to defend yourself but point his finger back at his bandwagoners and call them all scum. Claims he would start to actively scumhunt earlier but has resorted to the tactic I mentioned in my previous sentence, I say we should go for the vig kill on DK today.

Archaist

- So far I've really got nothing on him, need to pay more attention to him as he's not giving me any real signs of being either faction.

Snarky

- One problem I've got with Snarky goes back to when we just left RVS, he said that he couldn't make the connection of the initials DK to DeityKabuto, something doesn't sound right with that to me. Neutral for now, but he's on my radar.

Don

Josh

- I might sound like a douchebag for this, but something doesn't sit right with me with DJ. He claims he's mostly using his Ipod to play so far and I think that that can play to his advantage. His analyses haven't been as in-depth and I think he couple use that to his favor as he won't be posting as much, so the chances of him dropping scumtells or being called out on a specific analysis are significantly lower than if we were actively playing with a physical keyboard in front of him.

Parabo

llocks

- So far what I've got on PB is from when he thought Spadille had pro-town motives yet he still had his vote cast on him. That's some odd play to me.

[Toro]

Dude, Toro who the eff are you?

I'm a Spanish translation for bull.

I'm tired of your false-accusing a townie crap. I am townie GET OVER IT.

Your play doesn't even remotely seem to support your point.

[Toro]

Well, I'm just listing all the possibilities of the situation. If scum have the daykill, then they can kill a Townie when they want, but they're not likely to follow through with that plan.

Why would scum not want to follow through with it?

[Toro]

Toro, you just replaced in, and I am wondering why you start posting walls and directly head towards finding me suspicious. I am not the only one in this game, and it is bad to limit down your searches. Also weird how, you take Spadile's starting that there is something going on with ZMuffinman and I when there is really not. I am a Vanilla Townie whether you like it or not, and you are about to get on my leaning scum list if you keep on provoking me like this with false-accusations.

Oh I'm sorry, yet me play the clueless village idiot where I don't read back through the thread. Is this your stance on all substitutes? To not do any research back through the thread? I found you most suspicious from my reading through the thread prior to making my first wall, so I decided to let my suspicions be known.

You are about to make me lose my temper. You just fucking subbed in! You really don't have a clue about what is fucking going on in the game, I doubt you've read every shred of posts, so until then, you're dead to me. KTHX. You are just stirring up my trouble/conflict. The reasons you listed aren't SCUMMY at all, they are just reasons to hate on somebody. I have been in games where I have actually done something very very scummy, and newbie, but this? This isn't scummy at all. It is more of a "I hate this annoying guy", "Gtfo already" sort of reasoning. Play fair, not biased. Also, it's funny how all the people I find suspicious are Town-reads from you while you just subbed in. Stop with the lies. I'VE HAD 3-4 WALLS ON SNARKY, ARCHAIST, AND SPADILE, THERE IS NO-WAY THAT YOU FIND THEM ALL TOWN, LIES AND SLANDER

I'm about to make you lose your temper, relax, deep breaths. And once again, so what if I just subbed in, I'm not going to play the clueless village idiot card you seem to be wanting me to play. I'm not playing biased, I'm playing fair, are you always like this when people find you suspicious? Do I need to put you down on my meltdown alert? I've heard of people being hostile when under fire playing this game but this is just ridiculous.

And why are you misrepping me? I don't believe Archaist and Snarky are town at all, in fact if you read my rundown they're currently in the middle of the town/scum spectrum to me. Don't get pissed at me because I don't share the same POV as you.

What I want to see from ZMuffinman

: In D2, I want to see you take the leading role in scumhunting. Also, I want your opinion regarding this wall, S T A T.

The love between you two is so strong Hollywood should make a movie about it.

In conclusion, I can tell you're having a hard time thinking about this as you want me to get vigged when you're getting a null-read off of me and you want to see MuffinMan get vigged when you're getting a town read off of him.

[Toro]

This covers what I want to respond to before page 10, which seems to be infested with walls. So I'll read through that soon.

No one in their right mind would claim mafia goon, so if they did claim goon (which once again, is just ludicrous) should confirm them as scum, and if they do so, lynch 'em.

No.

Really now? In what possible scenario would you

NOT

lynch a person who claimed mafia goon?

You justified your stance earlier by offering an actual reason why you'd keep him around, and that was "he'd be a rather ineffective scum player." Don't say that I'm trying to find something that isn't there when it's literally right there (and just one post above yours.)

The premise here is that someone claiming goon is scum, so no.

But do you deny that you wouldn't mind keeping around an ineffective scum player.

Why are you trying to deflect attention off of DK? He claims he's scumhunting yet I've yet to see any real scumhunting from him, he's just pointing fingers mostly at those on his bandwagon shouting "YOU'RE SCUM! ALL THREE OF YOU ARE SCUM!" You might be right on DK being ineffective scum, but at the end of the day scum is scum, and they must hang.

Why am I trying to deflect attention off a townie? Well, I don't know. I figured getting rid of scum would be top priority. Guess I'm wrong about how this game is meant to be played.

So now DK is a confirmed townie? Hmm, interesting.

You claim he hasn't been scum hunting.

I'll put this back on you. I'm claiming you haven't done any real scum hunting.

I'm currently matching you up with DK, so yeah, I believe I'm doing some scum hunting.

TBH, if it's between you and DK, DK has done a mountain more scum hunting than you have. You have no case on the person you're accusing, you have less of a case on the person you're FoSing.

Maybe if you opened your eyes and quit tiptoeing around my question you'd see I'm building my case on you.

Here's another question, how do you feel knowing that DK puts you on a shortlist of players for the vig to kill, yet he indicates he thinks you're leaning pro-town? Why is it you are on that list when Archaist is not?

[Toro]

I don't try to lynch people unless I think they're scum.

Of course all of this goes out the window if they're an ineffective scum right? I'm not twisting my words on this you said, and you didn't deny it right off the bat.

You're trying way too hard to twist my words here.

If you say so, consider you were the one who didn't deny it right off the bat.

And again...

Did you not just say this?

Why am I trying to deflect attention off a townie? Well, I don't know. I figured getting rid of scum would be top priority. Guess I'm wrong about how this game is meant to be played.

You speak as if you

know

that DK is a townie.

Why are you asking me about that? Why not ask DK himself? You know, since he made the list. Derp.

If you weren't too busy doing something else, I just did ask DK that. Derp.

[Toro]

Of course all of this goes out the window if they're an ineffective scum right? I'm not twisting my words on this you said, and you didn't deny it right off the bat.

Quote me directly. Point out where I said I wouldn't lynch scum.

Son of a bitch, this is going around in circles. You said you wouldn't lynch DK if he was scum, because he'd be ineffective as scum. I have a strong feeling that it wasn't just a 'sarcastic joke.'

I said there are a couple sensible reasons not to lynch someone who claims "goon", but if you're asking me why I wouldn't lynch DK if he claimed goon, it would be because he's not an immediate threat and I would consider the possibility that somewhere in his mind he thinks it's a reasonable thing to do as town.

If DK claimed goon (which once again, is a completely ludicrous idea) you wouldn't off him because you wouldn't worry about him seeing he's ineffective. It's not just a sarcastic joke.

You speak as if you know that DK is a townie.

And?

So you

know

he's a townie?

If you weren't too busy doing something else, I just did ask DK that. Derp.

So you asked me a redundant fluff question?

No, I asked how you felt about that, why would DK put a player that he trusts on his 'vig-kill' list?

And you're still ignoring the fact you have no case on DK and you're still ignoring the fact that your only "case" on me is that I apparently said I don't want to lynch scum.

Try harder.

It's funny how DK claims that the whole town is split in confusion over on who is scum when he's the one who's pointing fingers at the people who actually have made cases on him. It sounds as if he's a panicked newb-scum who's worried that he's got this much pressure on him this early, his recent wall where he has you on his pro-town side but he picked you (and not Archaist, who's on his scummy side) to be nominated for a vig-kill, this appears to me as if he's trying to (and failing at) distancing himself from you. And another thing, why would he ask you to lead the town in scumhunting for D2 if he'd want you to be vigged?

[Toro]

No, I didn't.

I said I wouldn't lynch him if he claimed goon and I gave two reason for that.

Again, why wouldn't you want to lynch a claimed goon? Who in their right mind would do that?

No.

But you said I am speaking as if I know it.

I wanted to know what you made of it.

It sounded as if you KNEW what DK's alignment was.

This may come as a surprise, but I'm not DK. I can't really answer those questions.

Nor do I feel anything about it until he clarifies why he did it.

I just asked for your opinion on his actions, why can't you make a post about it prior to what he says?

@Toro: You never answered this actually.

I've actually changed my stance on using the day-vig ability, I'm fine with having the vig (assuming he's town) use the ability this phase, as each night there's a stronger and stronger chance that mafia (assuming they DON'T have the ability) can kill the day vig.

Once again, all of this depends on the alignment of the day vig.

That is a major lie, Lmaox.

I said good things about you.

I don't quite think that he's going to take a bribe from you to change his mind.

But right now, I would love to see Toro claim.

He is a prime example of how not to replace into a game.

I am wondering if he's SK or scum. I doubt SK, playing SK like that will only get yourself killed.

Once again, how is a replacement supposed to play this game? Sit out for their entire first phase? Please. I'm not going to be the village idiot that you want me to be. And where did you get SK from? There are 3 Scum, 3 Masons, and 6 VTs in this game, at least get to know the format before throwing an accusation at me that I'm a role that's not even in the game.

SnakePlissken, ZMuffinman.

I am sure that Snarky would be a better lynch for today. Toro is playing a bad replacement, and if he was scum, he wouldn't put himself out in the open like he is now. I say that he is a confused townie, and No I do not want him to continue in the game like this, but people are starting to ignore Snarky's case.

This post makes it sound like you're some sort of ringleader to Muffin and Snake. Why is it you've been bossing around other players trying to tell them how to play?

Saying that is quite easy for you. How aren't they scummy?What's your definition of the word scummy? What are DK's towntells? What can you say to disproove my case? Please, if you really think he is town, convince me other than just shouting he isn't scummy he isn't scummy.

Apparently he's going by meta.

Finally, what's wrong with two, more thought out wagons on D2? What makes that more anti-town than one kinda-thought-out-but-wrong wagon and a rushed deadline wagon on D1?

Are you suggesting a No-Lynch?

[Toro]

I've actually changed my stance on using the day-vig ability.

How would you describe your thoughts on the matter when you first seemed to oppose it?
What were your thought processes as you changed your mind?

When I first opposed it I (as I said) thought it'd be a shot in the dark as I thought there were stronger chances at the time that the vig would shoot an innocent townie. My thoughts on DK and zMuffinMan buddying up (which there is strong evidence of this on this page, with DK trying to direct Muffin and Snake to do what he wants) have blown that entire thought process away.

I was reading your back-and-forth with cjdrum and it made me think to myself more and more about how the ability could be used most efficiently. I then realized (it really should've came to me earlier) that if the town does indeed hold the ability, it would be best to use it D1, as the chances of the mafia killing the vig at night grow larger and larger each night phase, so the earlier the ability is used, the better.

[Toro]

Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote?

Ok, so I guess I just misunderstood. You're saying we should just wait and use the vig shot on D3 then?

Once again, I think that's too risky.

Regarding that, Spadile, Archaist, Toro, and Snarky. I would like to see a claim from you, probably not today, since it would be bad if you have power roles.

No. What's the point? Anyone in this game would claim VT, scum for obvious reasons and the masons don't want to out themselves on

DAY 1.

That is it. I am fucking tired of Toro's untruthful game play, I am tired of Spadile effing' V/LA'ing until Wensday to avoid suspicion, I am tired of Snarky's Anti-townie posting, and how his small wall points didn't give valid reasons and how he didn't give reads on everybody. I want them all gone, it's really annoying not just me, but many of the other townies. They are fucking with this game, and I find them all VI's or scum.

This is your rage post? Your only rage post?

I'm sorry but I'm not totally following this reasoning. Could you please elaborate?

I thought it was pretty clear but I'll try rephrasing it for you.

When I first thought of when the vig should use their power (assuming they're town), I didn't think D1 was an ideal time to use it as I didn't think that we'd get THIS MUCH info out. I thought it would be more useful to use it D2 at the earliest when we could start establishing a clearer picture on who's who.

[Toro]

Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote?

Ok, so I guess I just misunderstood. You're saying we should just wait and use the vig shot on D3 then?

This question is addressed to CJ.

When I first thought of when the vig should use their power (assuming they're town), I didn't think D1 was an ideal time to use it as I didn't think that we'd get THIS MUCH info out. I thought it would be more useful to use it D2 at the earliest when we could start establishing a clearer picture on who's who.

This is nice but doesn't address what is unclear about the original post. I will bold what I could not understand:

When I first opposed it I (as I said) thought it'd be a shot in the dark as I thought there were stronger chances at the time that the vig would shoot an innocent townie.

My thoughts on DK and zMuffinMan buddying up (which there is strong evidence of this on this page, with DK trying to direct Muffin and Snake to do what he wants) have blown that entire thought process away.

With their buddying up I felt that there was some sort of connection between the two so I felt the vig target should be used, I mean it's just flat-out suspicious how it appeared that DK would also turn to MuffinMan for help or tell him what to do.

[Toro]

The thing you bolded should actually be the reason why I switched it to Day 1. That doesn't relate to why I used to want it being used on D3 really, I put it in the wrong paragraph my bad.

[Toro]

1. I thought that the vig would hit a townie more easily if we used it D1, but then again, this was all prior to DK blowing the door wide open.
2. Pretty much what you bolded was one of the reasons why I switched to the idea of a D1 Vig. I then realized a small problem if we held onto it for too long, the vig could be killed during each night phase before use by scum.
3. See 2.

[Toro]

This was all prior to DK blowing the door wide open.

This is the point I don't understand. How did DK "blow the door open"?

He's come off INCREDIBLY scummy (even for Day 1), and I suspect his flip could reveal MuffinMan's alignment.

[Toro]

Who's the second highest person on your scum list at the moment?

[Toro]

No, that's what I was asking in you in the quote you just brought up.

[Toro]

@Muffin: I am encouraged by your last post. Thank you. (I mean that sincerely)

@Toro: Your question to me (when I made that post many pages ago) was a direct dodge of the question that I asked you and I want to know:

1) Why did you dodge that question?
2) Why did you ask the question?

1. I didn't purposefully dodge it. Didn't I answer it just a few posts ago?
2. I was wondering after DK was vigged who would your leading candidate be for a lynch, just a simple question really.

I feel like there's two scum teams,

Say Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Slip of the year right here folks.

[Toro]

@Muffin: I am encouraged by your last post. Thank you. (I mean that sincerely)

@Toro: Your question to me (when I made that post many pages ago) was a direct dodge of the question that I asked you and I want to know:

1) Why did you dodge that question?
2) Why did you ask the question?

1. I didn't purposefully dodge it. Didn't I answer it just a few posts ago?
2. I was wondering after DK was vigged who would your leading candidate be for a lynch, just a simple question really.

I feel like there's two scum teams,

Say Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Slip of the year right here folks.

You sir, are mentally deficient. You are clearly in the wrong mindset.

Why did you just say there are

two

scum teams?

[Toro]

Muffins can't be his partner because DK wants muffins shot,

I think it quite honestly was a distancing attempt, there is no logical reason that I can possibly think of where someone on your leaning-town list should go on your 'must be vigged' list.

[Toro]

I feel like there's two scum teams,

Say Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Slip of the year right here folks.

Oh, come on, really? Not only did Toro-scum take this completely out of context, but he's trying to call it a slip.

How are people so blind to this?

If Toro isn't scum, he's doing a good job acting the part.

Why would he say there's two scum teams then Muffin? He already believed that the people on his wagon were scum, now where'd this second team pop up from?

[Toro]

HE HAS INSIDE INFO ABOUT A SECOND SCUMTEAM.

OH MY GOD.

LYNCH HIM SO WE CAN FOCUS ON MAFIA TEAM B NEXT.

Whoever the hell they are.

[Toro]

1.

Blatant OMGUS is blatant. Right from the getgo he's been using it, and if you haven't been able to figure it out by now, I don't think OMGUS is a real townly move, it takes away from real scumhunting and just points fingers at people just because they're on your wagon. From past off-site games I've played on a forum I used to frequent, the OMGUS-strategy users have turned out to be scum, and in particular newb scum. That's DK in a nutshell.

2.

The buddying that I'm seeing between him and you Muffin, what with the telling you to 'lead the town in D2' and you being on his 'vig-kill' list when you're on his 'pro-town' list. It seems like a real pathetic attempt at distancing, and he hasn't even addressed it yet. Plus the fact he keeps on trying to direct you to do stuff that he seems ideal seems like as if he's trying to subtlely (but failing) to guide his partners in the right direction.

3.

Speaking of not addressing any of my concerns yet, the reason why is he has been lately making hostile posts to people. Pretty much throwing the finger to anyone who currently has a vote on him, it's not productive, addresses nobody's concerns, and makes him look a little kid crying because people thinks he's scum. He's been losing his cool nonstop. Now get this quote...it's going to be a laugh.

2. Normally, a townie would remain "cool" and not be that offended about their attackers, play it casually, yet all of you whiners are over-reacting, it's just a game. You guys and your over reacting is a scum tell. Especially, Spadile. Your posts are more emotional, and your words are partially in a twisted logic, whereas you know that some of the stuff I say is logical, yet you still counter-attack in a partially logical way.

Apparently the mindset of keeping it cool flew out the window along time ago, before he even made this post and using his own logic, he's scum.

[Toro]

The way I see it, the best thing we can do today is nail two scum TODAY and I'm all for it.

Isn't that the best thing we could possibly do today anyways?

[Toro]

It's some Japanese mascot named Domo. Dunno, a friend picked it out for me.

[Toro]

@Snarky

&

@Toro

: How scummy is CJ to you? Is he town do you think?

What I've mostly been thinking about with CJ is the fact that he wants to hold off using the vig kill until Day 2. Once again, I feel it's too risky to leave the ability unused throughout the night. As of now it's just a hunch, but thinking like this makes me think that cj's leaning scum and might've possibly confirmed town has the vig kill. I'll just throw up this disclaimer...

DISCLAIMER: It's a hunch.

Toro makes sense as scum. LK, spad and Arch also make sense. Snake is just meh. Snarky is less suspicious purely because he put effort into making a case, and as much as I disagree with it, I can see where he's coming from.

Once again, your reasons for thinking I am scum is for not posting my reasons for thinking DK is scum, I have. Why is it you can see where Snarky's case is coming from but you can't see where I'm coming from? OMGUS-based playstyle has nearly all the time come up as a newbscum tactic in the past games I've played. And his constant failure to properly defend himself appears to me as if he's sweating/panicking as a confused scum would.

Just wondering, why would LK make sense?

[Toro]

all i care about is toro dying, the fact he was reaching on DK for that supposed scumslip is textbook scum and almost makes me believe there is no doubt in my mind of him being scum, whether vig or lynch, toro dies.

Oh ya it will be vig. When Toro flips as red as his avatar's mouth either CJ or Snarky will be up for the lynch.

That's your reason for voting me to be vigged pb? Because of that one thing? Sure in hindsight (and I was going to post about it) it looked ridiculous but that's your one reason? When you voted for me all you said was 'no.' Last time I checked that's not a reason.

[Toro]

Seriously, I'm baffled, what's everybody's cases on me again?

[Toro]

Here are excerpts from my notes:

1) Says Muffin is scummy regardless of DK's flip (?) (+scum)

When Muffin said he wouldn't want to lynch a claimed goon that's what I found scummy about him at the time (and I wasn't the only one who thought so.) While at school today I've been thinking about it more and more and I've actually been thinking about retracting my vote on DK because of the whole DK/Muffin pairing that I've put together. Put 2-and-2 together and you'll know why.

2) Discourages D1 vig and advocates D3 vig instead! (*scum).

Did I not change my opinion on this shortly afterwards? I realized that scum would have the opportunity to off the vig every single night until it's used. It'd be better off being able to utilize it on D1 instead of having the chance of losing it forever right off the bat in N1.

fishes my second vote after DK is vigged + question dodge. (+scum).

I was merely asking (in other words) who was the next highest on your scumlist.

4) Answers D3 question for CJ (??).

I wouldn't say I answered it for him, I was just throwing my opinion into the ring over what you guys were talking about.

I mean your overall profile replacing in was to throw up a fluff player analysis, jump on the biggest BW to tunnel it and set up a chain mislynch. I wasn't impressed.

I had genuine reasons that DK was scum, with even bigger reasons supporting why I thought he is scum that I posted later. As of now I'm more inclined to believe that DK just might be a VI.

Unvote

Vote: cjdrum

^ My case on you, nothing has changed.

I am getting a null scum read on you.

In your wall you had me down as null, if nothing's changed I'd still just be a nullread. What am I? A null-read or a scum-read DK?

[Toro]

Wow you actually voted CJ

Amazing what the pressure of the crosshairs will do.

You saw my reasoning right?

[Toro]

Well the reasoning I recall more strongly indicates you are scum (the fact that he tried to delay the use of the vig and confirm that it was in the hands of town) because you both were guilty of it, it lends more credence to your lie about not purposely dodging my question to you when I brought it up (#3 from my list) and implicates you as scum for answering the question about D3 usage for him.

Was that the reasoning you were indicating?

For my vote on CJ it was because of the idea he had of the vig not using the ability until Day 3. Once again, how long was I for using the vig until a later day? Not for long at all. The reason why I couldn't answer your question was because it baffled me as well, I didn't write that entire post in order seeing how I had to split my time between finishing the final draft of my research paper (I get out of high school on the 27th) and posting that wall. I didn't answer the question for him, I offered my opinion on when to use the vig ability, if anything I was suggesting that not wanting to use the vig ability D1 seems scummy as it appears as if he's trying to bide some time for scum to kill off the vig. That's my reasoning for my vote.

Did you get my reasoning on why I took the vote off DK though?

@Toro: You ever see that movie where there are these two guys and they are called into the office of the mob boss and they're standing on plastic? You know the movie I'm talking about?

Can't say that I have.

[Toro]

Don't you think that'd be a bit obvious though? Me trying to bus CJ? The reason why I unvoted DK was because I think he might have an amigo, if you catch my drift.

[Toro]

Sorry that I appeared active LK, I've been catching up on Open 309 with starting my notes and whatnot.

[Toro]

Both Snarky and Toro are incredibly scummy for getting off the DK wagon now. DK's last few posts have been craptastic, and he has recently claimed VT. It was hard for my own read on DK to tolerate that behavior, let alone someone who was already anti-DK. DK's play isn't what has changed here. It's how many necks it costs to attack DK right now.

Did you read my reasoning for taking my vote OFF DK? (Don't read why I put it ON cj)

@LK: The whole not realizing DK stood for DeityKabuto sounded as if it was an excuse to jump on the wagon, more later gotta go eat.

[Toro]

That's cause I'm a bawss. (anyone who gets the joke gets 5 gold stars)

Epic meal time?

Oh, there is something else about Muffin that I cannot disclose at this time but I will at some point.

Also, for the record, Muffin is an expert player. I don't know who his alt is but I suspect he is a vet that goes back several years. The notion that he would defend DK as his scum partner just absolutely does not compute in any way shape or form.

Is this it?

Also, btw I have meta on Muffin where he does defend other townies as town.

Hmm...I'm kind of thinking that this might disprove my theory regarding him.

You said muffin and Kabuto are connected toro, and said that somehow makes you want to lynch neither. If it makes sense, it's beyond me. Town muffin can ignorantly defend scumDK, and presumably that's what you felt was the case from the outset because muffin had been defending DK since before you replaced in.

Put two and two together my friend, Muffin claims he has meta that proves DK is innocent. I still think they're connected.

Hey Toro we're gonna find out if DK = Diety Kabuto or not.

DK stands for Donkey Kong stupid.

[Toro]

Exactly! Or like you say, "soitenly"

Soitenly. Nyuck nyuck nyuck.

[Toro]

Toro-Snarky are obvscum. Just woke up but ITT Toro admits to being partners with Snarky by default.

Quote please.

[Toro]

I think your vote for CJ is quite good

Oh thanks.

and am willing to lynch either one of you today

Oh

thanks.

[Toro]

Sonuvabitch...rereading.

[Toro]

@DK: Please reread the opening posts, there's

no SK

in this game.

And if I'm (according to you) the biggest threat to this town, why are you voting for LK then?

I'm starting to re-read now by the way boys and girls.

[Toro]

Right, I'm trying to sift through endless triple post after triple post from LK atm.

[Toro]

Anyone who wants their questions answered list them now so I know what to look for while I'm catching up.

[Toro]

@pops question regarding my opinion of LK's pre and post Snarky flip reactions.

When you claimed to be the vig I was dumbfounded why LK would think you were lying,

NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY COUNTERCLAIM AS YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD USE THE ABILITY.

His post where he said "ZOMG YOU VIGGED SNARKY!?!?" sends scum-vibes up and down my spine, he was on his scumlist

WHY WOULD HE NOT WANT TO HAVE SOMEONE ON HIS LIST VIGGED?

Makes no sense whatsoever.

Post-flip I think his claim that he

knows

who the masons are is pure bullshit, he's not even on the list! How can you be so sure who the masons are if YOU'RE NOT A FLIPPING MASON. I think LK might be getting a bit over head-over-heels here. More later today, need sleep.

PS: I don't support this Muffin lynch

at all.

[Toro]

If the head Mason asked me to I would.

And all of this is going off a mere shot in the dark...pfft.

[Toro]

(Some highlights from rereading)

@Toro, at the moment, neither do I, especially since I'm pretty sure Low Key's scum. Do you mind explaining why cjdrum's so suspicious?

My suspicions on CJ is that he wanted to use a vig ability on Day 2/Day 3. To me, this sounded like scum trying to delay the use of the vig so they could have a shot at offing the vig before we had an attempt to use. Although we don't have to worry about protecting the vig anymore, my suspicions on CJ are still strong.

Finally, you are posting good content.

I agree here.

LK is town, Muffin is scum
Muffin is scum, LK is town

But who to vote?

Unvote

I think my idea I was hanging onto previously between DK and MuffinMan being masons together might now be out the window.

[quote="LK]Now I don't think this will happen at all. I suspect as the town lynches Muffin/Chk we will hit scum there. But anyway lynch me or Muffin it really doesn't matter and the Masons don't even have to claim and the town wins anyway.[/quote]

LOL and Muffin will be speechless because HIS scum list are the 3 Masons! HILARIOUS!!

Once again. Bullshit.

I can flat out prove it in-thread but screw that. Let the scum kill them one by one. They will feel its their only chance to win but in reality they lose anyway.

TRANSLATION:

You CAN'T prove it.

Scum quick hammer to discourage discussion?

Doubtful.

The plan should go ahead not because I'm scum, but because LK is such an idiot that he can't possibly be scum and neither him or pops are masons.

Also I'm happy just to get out of this game so I don't have to read LK's inane quadposts.

VOTE: muffin

God I hope town loses this one

Say what now?

Shall I vote? If you want the town to lose, you seem to be scum.

Something about this just seems off to me for some reason.

*sigh* I'm so scared to hammer, cause what if he's town? The evil side of my brain is saying that I'm going to feel like crap if he's town.

Muffin has given up, and I *think* it's a good choice, therefore:
Vote: Muffin

Interesting. This post reads to me as if jyl is hesitant to lynch a scumbuddy of hers. I'm starting to favor a MuffinMan lynch about now, if we get MM as scum, then we could group jyl in with scum-MM.

WHAT OTHER WAY IS THERE TO KNOW? HOW CAN YOU KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY?

YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE BLOODY A) MODLY CONFIRMATION, B) THE MASONS CODE SOMETHING TO YOU, OR C) YOU'RE F***ING LYING

Exactly.

Unvote

Are we at L-1 now?

[Toro]

Orignally, my reason for suspecting LK was because I didn't know how he knew the masons, and I thought he was incorrect. Couldn't it be B, tho?

Highly unlikely that they're trying to send him some sort of code.

[Toro]

Well it's the most likely out of all the choices, isn't it?

Nope, it's C.

[Toro]

If we're at L-1 I'm willing to hammer, just throwing that out there. Everyone done discussing for D1?

[Toro]

I would like everyone to weigh in on their opinon of the following list of potential scum:

Low Key, CJ, Toro, Chkflip

Please say if you agree or disagree.

If you disagree please say:

A) Who in the list you disagree with and why
B) Who should be in the list that isn't and why

A. Toro - Disagree, Toro is to scum as water is to dry.
CJ - Agree, still have my suspicions in hanging on to the vig power until later days.
A (Kinda.) Chkflip - His giving up in defending himself and wanting to off himself are a tad suspicious to me, I'm going to have to go review his subbing into the game as I wasn't as active as I could've been at the time. Disagree until further review.
Low Key - Something's appearing a bit off about you as of late, as if you're trying

too

hard to steer the rest of us in the direction you want to go, hence your belief of your non-followers to be scummy. I still call bullshit that you know who the masons are. So I'll agree.

B. If you went back and actually read what I said LK you would've saw that I took my vote off DK because I believed that Muffin and DK were connected (originally by way of scum.) I soon thought that Muffin and DK could most likely be masons together so that's why I moved my vote over to CJ. It's obviously clear now that DK and Muffin aren't connected so I'm going to throw DK back on the list.

cjdrum and Toro were strangely quiet during the push for zMuffinMan lynch.

Well I'm sorry I can't play to your schedule, I was out with cousins for the most part throughout the Memorial Day weekend/finishing up High School beforehand.

and Toro acted weird when he was almost vigged and was very quiet during zMuffinMan wagon.

Acted weird how? By the changing of my vote to CJ?

Ya and did you notice Toro was totally silent about the Chkflip wagon.

/face fucking palm.

Considering I was completely absent from pages 21-30!? Sonuvabitch.

I mean I have been planning on posting largely on my cases but ya it boils down to the first lynch being either myself or Toro/Chkflip. Chkflip ragequit for a total of 14 minutes and then immediately returned (he could of also taken it back even if the Mod accepted it) and then he suddenly declares himself "confirmed town" and repeats it later saying only scum would vote him.

The only confusing thing about Chkflip is his self-vote to put himself at L-1. The key to understanding that would revolve around who WASN'T voting him at the time.

I'll go look that up now.

No CJ option?

What strikes me about Toro, is that he doesn't defend himself. I don't know whether that's scum or town, but that's worth pointing out.

Fucking access to mafiascum.net, how does it work? I couldn't defend myself because I WASN'T AT A COMPUTER. For the past 24 hours though I've been able to get regular access to the site. I've posted my explanations for my actions earlier but LK was just too ignorant to READ THEM. And by the time this phase is over I'm going to have to post my reasons at least five more times.

Also, "You guys will give me permission to hammer right?"

I was willing to hammer as my thoughts on Muffin took a sharp nosedive South, I may've said I didn't support his lynch earlier but he didn't offer any defense in the latestages of his wagon and was waiting to die, proclaiming that he wanted us to lose. If everyone was done discussing for the day I would've dropped the hammervote, if everyone still wanted to speak I wouldn't have voted.

Well here in the US its late at night. Alot of people will be asleep and i know he is of high school age and so maybe more likely to be asleep under his parents' care and such.

Pssh...under my parents' care? I'm done with high school and my schedule is clear (although I might have to go V/LA in 2 weeks if I go on vacation to New York.)

----------------------------------------------------

I'm going to end this giant eyesore of a wall with this message to everyone.

Vote: Low Key

Seriously, this is just flatout ridiculous. We have a guy blatantly fishing for masons claiming he's connected to them in some way, shape, or form. Not to mention he just so happens to think that he's the mayor of the damn town and is parading around telling everybody to do his bidding, and nobody's raising many questions over this? We just mislynched "obv-scum" and it appears that once again we're on the fasttrack to another mis-lynch for the day.

How many townies have to die before we actually start getting somewhere?

[Toro]

Toro adds DK back into the list, and wants CK off the list, noted.

@Toro: What do you think about Snarky and CJ cross voting each other so intensely? Don't you think its odd at all?

Also, what about

Snarky

mentioning that he thought

DJ

's vote for Parab was BETTER than

Pops'?

I said upon further review LK.

I'm going to have to go back and re-read that part but there's a 50-50 chance those arguments were Scum v Town or Scum v Scum. I'm leaning towards the possibility that Snarky and CJ were scumbuddies trying to bus eachother to clear themselves and both weren't happy that they were chosen to be bussed. I'll get back to you later, Toro needs some sleep.

[Toro]

Congratulations, we're going around in circles again. And chances are we'll be going around circles again in D3, and D4. LK, I've been answering your questions regarding your case on me but of course you just sweep them under the rug. This is just pathetic, it's like sheep blindly following their shepherd. Absolutely ridiculous, you guys are setting us up to fail. I'm VT.

[Toro]

Idiots.

[Toro]

Yes I was fucking VT.

Sheep to a shepherd this game is.

[Toro]

You know guys.. this game could be a -little- funny to LK if he's scum.

I'm laughing over this as well, you all just blindly pledged your support to his cause. Like little sheep looking with anticipation on what their shepherd wants to do with them next. I've yet to see a SINGLE REASON from ANY OF YOU why my lynch would be a good idea. I'm looking at you Spadille, Snake, DK, LK. If you

genuinely

think you're helping the cause with this lynch of me you're DEAD WRONG. And no info can possibly come out of this day because you all RUSHED IT. You didn't even let me try and defend myself this phase, idiots. I asked the question before and I'll ask it again.

How many townies have to die before you all WAKE UP!?

[Toro]

Toro, see rules #3 and #9. You're not supposed to be posting after you're lynched.
I'll wait for the flip before thinking any further. I've seen too many scum say "bah, go town" or "I was just a VT" when lynched.

I'm not dead.

[Toro]

I wouldn't be so sure about that Snake, some people just can't wait to follow LK into another

baaaaaaaaaad

lynch.

[Toro]

Actually, we got info on everyone on how their reaction was on your wagon. It's like a day but shorter.

I just see a piling on of votes. We need to take time to actually properly think this through.

[Toro]

Man Low Key, please stop spamming the entire thread with an excessive amoun of posts it's making the game really hard to follow. I don't get the scum vibe from Toro currently. However I do not like Low Keys insistence to role fish.

VOTE: Low Key

Snake how did you go from this?

Well lets put him at L-1 then and see what happens...

Unvote

VOTE: Toro

To this?

I'm hammering Toro. I don't need to post my case because everyone of you did a fine job at it.

So Toro, CLAIM

To my knowledge, you have NEVER stated your case on me in this thread.

Analyzing...

Vote: Toro

Most probable wagon.

Runner-ups, potential candidates: cjdrum, chkflip, [Low Key]

No reasoning WHAT. SO. EVER.

Toro - is actually fairly scummy. I would not be opposed to a Toro lynch.

Again, NO REASONING. Just following the leader.

[Toro]

LOL. He is scumplaining in twilight.

He will flip scum and I will get to post another nuke for the team.

Of course shepherd.

[Toro]

So Toro, tell us true did you really think you were getting vigged when I posted that "Deadly Alliance" image??

Due to the image? No.

[Toro]

Ok but you thought you were getting vigged imminently and yet no loud struggling and accusations...

Did Chkflip coach you to be more aggressive in the QT last night?

Did I believe I was getting vigged? I felt there was a strong possibility that it would happen, you still haven't told me how I acted weird.

Considering I can't do shit at night no.

Did the Head Mason tell you to butt out of their QT?

[Toro]

Excellent question. I suspect a tarp. Who did you guys plan to NK tonight after you lynched me?

There can't be a trap because you DON'T KNOW WHO THE MASONS ARE.

And once again, I can't NK anyone because I can't do shit at night master.

[Toro]

(

even if Toro was VT,

at least we didn't hit a Mason. Now we missed a Mason and can work out where to go next)

You speak of me as if you know I'm not VT.

[Toro]

(pssst you're not)

(psssst you're wrong...again.)

You sure don't seem VT.

I'm just listing it as a possibility.

Then tell me, what is an ideal VT to you?

This is scumposting.

I think cjdrum is a more sensible vote than Toro who just subbed in.

I can't believe I'm saying this to YOU but /nod.

(Toro has been lynched already)

Panicked?

If I'm already lynched before hiphop says so than chkflip should be dead right now.

[Toro]

If I'm already lynched before hiphop says so than chkflip should be dead right now.

Ooo, a little gem here. You guys talk about that last night didya?

Shut up shepherd.

[Toro]

Toro- how is that panicked? I was just telling DK that you had been lynched.
Flailing?

It appeared as if you were saying "too late he's lynched, can't lynch me today."

Also, ideal VTs try to help the Town. I'm leaving it there because I have to go, but...

If this is the case than no one here is an ideal VT.

[Toro]

I realize you thought you would have a better chance to kill pops and lynch me but either way no matter which of the two of us you NK'ed this plan was going through to your demise.

My God we're boned.

We're seriously seriously boned, have fun being led around by this moron.

[Toro]

First off, jil we didn't lose this because Toro and Snarky. Nice try though deflecting the blame.

But let me say this jil, you did a fantastic job keeping it together, just realize this...Mafia is like Poker, you don't want to let your opponents see what you've got so keep your cards close to you and keep a straight face. You were doing extremely well prior to D4, but let your emotions show through too much. And when you got excited like that you were dropping slip after slip, in fact I'm surprised no one picked up on your slip in #1111. Nevertheless, good game jil.

DK, here's my opinion on you. ... ... ... (Okay just kidding...somewhat)

And I, as Snarky has also said, played like crap. I should have

never

pushed the wagon on DK so hard, but he's just so

naturally

scummy.

I really don't want to add a one to my scum loss list...oh well, here goes.

[Toro]

Btw, what does flailing means?

Throwing accusations everywhere trying to look town.

[Toro]

I can't possibly imagine how Parab, who called the Masons a second scum team, IN THE SAME DAY could turn around and EXPERTLY bus both of his scum buddies so perfectly AND EVEN CALL FOR THEIR VIG!

I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT!

my scum team was playing bad, you do what you need to do, i'm usually a scum team player but defending them was mere pointless and i would prefer trying to get my replacement in a good position, which i succeed.

i am let down we lost, but i'm so proud of jill for sticking through it, even without my help, she did great.

As soon as I saw you pull that move (requesting out) that was when we'd be fine throughout the rest of the game, so PB, you nearly won the game for us. Actually, DK pretty much won it for the town.

[Toro]

Toro and Snarky. You guys suck. We won because of me and Parabollocks.

ROFLCOPTER

~