Cases are anti-town?
-
-
UberNinja Jekyll and Hyde
- Jekyll and Hyde
- Jekyll and Hyde
- Posts: 8108
- Joined: December 30, 2011
Haha. Nice pic. But not to worry, iama. I know how to clean up my act from how you may have seen me play before. I have multiple, very distinct play styles, and I have very little doubt that I'll be an excellent IC thanks to quite a few comments I've gotten thus far, both from newbies and non-newbies.
So my gathering of this thread thus far is that "cases are scummy/anti-town in a sense because they encourage too much logic and not enough gut" is one reason people believe the premise of the thread, and "cases are scummy/anti-town because they tend to encourage walling/quote-stripe rebuttals, depending on the players in the game" is another. The flip side of the argument is that "cases are not scummy in any way; in fact they are necessary to convince more logical-minded scummers of a certain person's guilt where a simple 'that player is scum. just believe me' will just not do".
And those are all valid viewpoints. I just wanted to stimulate some discussion on the topic. If anyone else hasn't said anything on the topic and has a different opinion (or comments on what's transpired thus far) then I encourage them to post their thoughts.My Wiki| Friends | The Cult of UberNinja | My Games | Modded Games | Statistics | Achievements | Avatars-
-
mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
Well-done cases are not anti-town.
The problem lies in the fact that 95% of cases are not well-done.
Hint: Cases don't have to be walls, and if yours is, it's probably not in the 5%.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
-
quadz08 Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5619
- Joined: May 30, 2010
- Location: where the wily things are
In post 102, mastin2 wrote:Cases don't have to be walls, and if yours is, it's probably not in the 5%.
Current Avatar: Kronk. Duh.-
-
Timeater Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4334
- Joined: July 10, 2008
- Location: Tucson
What about making cases semi-official likefos.
Boiling them down into the most simple terms so you can useCase.
Case:I think mastin is scum for these reasons. Early game he was posting way too much. Its not apart of his meta at all to act like that. The way he came out of nowhere and defended Cyberbob, that was pretty scummy. Also he has been prone throw out a lot of meaningless reads and lists like the time he said Vi, Chesskid, and Uberninja were all town with dubious reasoning. His voting habits have been lazy, I dont think I've been convinced at his genuineness once when he's placed a vote. To top it off, he hasn't attempted VCA or posted a wall once!watch for the eggshells-
-
mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
You might not like me as a player, and quite frankly, neither do I. But when it comes to theory, I DO know my stuff. If I applied everything I've learned to theoretically do in my time, nobody'd have an issue with me, it's just that I can't. I'm human, and despite my efforts, I have certain psychological patterns impossible to break.In post 103, quadz08 wrote:In post 102, mastin2 wrote:Cases don't have to be walls, and if yours is, it's probably not in the 5%.
Walling among them. I'm known on EVERY. SINGLE. SITE. I've been a regular on for my long-windedness. I made not one, but TWO MD threads about it, too. Rather than receive actually helpful advice, you people went "lolmastin", trolled the threads, and they were quickly derailed. And then died. Without giving me the help I was looking for.
I am very well aware that cases should be concise. Every. single. long. case. I have made has failed. EVERY one of them. My most convincing 'cases' were short posts I never intended to be cases at all.
Do note, however, that I've also found this to be true:
A long case and/or long countercase directed towards a single player can be incredibly convincing. (For instance, Oversoul completely shut down my case against him in OxyMoron Mafia.) If that same case were to be directed at multiple players rather than just the one, it'd be almost entirely useless. And that's where the shorter cases come in. A paragraph, maybe two at most. A case longer than that is pretty much worthless in a crowd.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
-
crypto Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4088
- Joined: April 20, 2009
-
-
Junpei Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5226
- Joined: June 24, 2011
ITT mastin claims to know everything that he needs to do, yet still whine when people don't give him advice. Impossible to break psychological patterns my ass - if you tried you could do it but I think you just love being flawed and weak.-
-
chamber Cases are scummy
- Cases are scummy
- Cases are scummy
- Posts: 10703
- Joined: November 20, 2005
Cases != Reasons (though I will often not give those either). There are a lot of issues with cases, they are biasing, they encourage the person you suspect to respond, 'winning' a 'case-off' is about whos a better debator, not about the strength of the case, they make the thread much more difficult to reread. They aren't only biasing for you ala confirmation bias as been pointed out, they are biasing for those reading the case too, they encourage others to focus on what you saw whether it was right or wrong, whether you saw the relevant points as to that players alignment or not. Everyone knows that arguing with the person you suspect is the best way to generate noise, you are never going to convince town that they are scum, and are never going to get scum to admit that they are scum. NOOOISE. So yeah, if you want to make a concise group of bullet points and ignore the target when he responds, go ahead and do that, but thats not what a 'case' was in 2006, and I don't really think its what a 'case' is now.
edit: And the logic vs gut debate is really dumb. Everyone should interact logically with everything at all times. There is nothing illogical about following your gut, unless its contradicted by hard facts, which almost never surface in mafia games.Taking a break from the site.-
-
crypto Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4088
- Joined: April 20, 2009
that is some pretty sweet armchair psychology there junpei i appreciate the analysisIn post 107, Junpei wrote:ITT mastin claims to know everything that he needs to do, yet still whine when people don't give him advice. Impossible to break psychological patterns my ass - if you tried you could do it but I think you just love being flawed and weak.-
-
Quilford Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8438
- Joined: March 11, 2011
-
-
Timeater Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4334
- Joined: July 10, 2008
- Location: Tucson
In post 107, Junpei wrote:ITT mastin claims to know everything that he needs to do, yet still whine when people don't give him advice. Impossible to break psychological patterns my ass - if you tried you could do it but I think you just love being flawed and weak.
watch for the eggshells-
-
Junpei Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5226
- Joined: June 24, 2011
In post 110, Quilford wrote:holy shit junpei that was really fucking good of you to say man
np bro, he likes it when people give him harsh criticism - just ask him-
-
quadz08 Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5619
- Joined: May 30, 2010
- Location: where the wily things are
Mastin: I didn't mean to insult, honestly. Know that I think that your contributions to MD are helpful and interesting. (Your cop thread in particular was great, it changed my perception on how to play it.)
It was meant to be lighthearted, my apologies if it came across differently.Current Avatar: Kronk. Duh.-
-
chamber2 Townie
- Townie
- Townie
- Posts: 61
- Joined: June 19, 2012
-
-
saulres Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4173
- Joined: July 25, 2011
I really prefer when other people give cases with their vote. You may not want to give one because you think they're of no value in getting your target lynched, but I don't think you're looking at it from the other side -- it gives me no read onyou.
Since you could be scum, I don't want to waste my time looking over someone you voted for with no reasoning when from where I'm sitting, you could be scum trying to distract me from what I'm looking at. Give me a case and then I have something to think about when evaluating you."SAULRES you are THE man! Fav mod eva, no contest!" - Bert; "Saulres is a fantastic mod, if he is running a game everyone needs to join it." - FuDuzn
Nominated for Paperback Writer Scummie 2013 and 2014!
On permanentV/LAFriday afternoons through Saturday nights.-
-
Tammy Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 15361
- Joined: January 13, 2012
In post 114, saulres wrote:I really prefer when other people give cases with their vote. You may not want to give one because you think they're of no value in getting your target lynched, but I don't think you're looking at it from the other side -- it gives me no read onyou.
Since you could be scum, I don't want to waste my time looking over someone you voted for with no reasoning when from where I'm sitting, you could be scum trying to distract me from what I'm looking at. Give me a case and then I have something to think about when evaluating you.
This. Cases do more for me being able to evaluate the person making the case than who the case is on. If I can evaluate the person who made the case positively then I'm more likely to take some of their opinions into account...other than that meh.
Cases can be dangerous in a sense because some town are too lazy to think for themselves or actually read. I've written cases that I don't think were all that persuasive, but people voted the way I wanted anyway. I figure it's because they went "hey that has a lot of words and paragraphs, must be accurate" without actually reading. Then they don't have to feel responsible if it's wrong because hey "there was a case!"-
-
Faraday ...should I be here?
- ...should I be here?
- ...should I be here?
- Posts: 12126
- Joined: March 29, 2009
- Location: Ireland
In post 114, saulres wrote:I really prefer when other people give cases with their vote. You may not want to give one because you think they're of no value in getting your target lynched, but I don't think you're looking at it from the other side -- it gives me no read on you.
Getting my targeted lynched as scum gives you a read on me!
(Plus it's not hard to fabricate a case as scum, like it really isn't. )are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?-
-
saulres Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4173
- Joined: July 25, 2011
In post 116, Faraday wrote:Getting my targeted lynched as scum gives you a read on me!
I don't actually agree with this. Either there's something I still need to learn, or it's just not true. If you don't tell me why you vote, how is getting someone lynched going to help me know your alignment?
(Plus it's not hard to fabricate a case as scum, like it really isn't. )
Well, yes, of course scum can make a case. But then that's something to look at, both before and certainly after flips.
I've noticed a trend in this thread -- for the most part, those arguing against cases have a join date before around 2010, and those arguing for them have a join date after 2010. That parallels my experience playing with people like CES, and the problems I've seen when oldies and newbies play together. I wonder why that is."SAULRES you are THE man! Fav mod eva, no contest!" - Bert; "Saulres is a fantastic mod, if he is running a game everyone needs to join it." - FuDuzn
Nominated for Paperback Writer Scummie 2013 and 2014!
On permanentV/LAFriday afternoons through Saturday nights.-
-
quadz08 Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5619
- Joined: May 30, 2010
- Location: where the wily things are
-
-
zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
-
-
quadz08 Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5619
- Joined: May 30, 2010
- Location: where the wily things are
-
-
zoraster He/HimDisorganized CrimeHe/Him
- Disorganized Crime
- Disorganized Crime
- Posts: 21680
- Joined: June 10, 2008
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: Belmont, CA
-
-
quadz08 Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5619
- Joined: May 30, 2010
- Location: where the wily things are
-
-
Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
- Deus ex Machina
- Deus ex Machina
- Posts: 9752
- Joined: November 6, 2009
- Location: Location location location
-
-
chamber Cases are scummy
- Cases are scummy
- Cases are scummy
- Posts: 10703
- Joined: November 20, 2005
In post 121, zoraster wrote:that's potentially a sign that wall posts were worse. If you're typing up 2,000 word essays with Point-by-point analysis, you don't have time to post a ton of smaller posts that add pages to a game.
The past couple of years the tendency has been toward LOTS of smaller posts.
In 05 there were more of a mix of smaller posts and bigger posts, then around late 07-09 the wall posts hit their max, and they have been on the fall ever since. Of course in 05-6 games were -really- short compared to now too, in terms of total posts and total words.Taking a break from the site.
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.