Open 441 - Chosen Mafia (OVER)

[rapidcanyon]

If we lose this game, it is entirely because McStab and Inte close their eyes and refuse to take a person out of L-1. They won't give me time to convince them. They won't give me 1 fucking day. I did what I could. good luck guys. I'll be so mad at the endgame if you don't lynch Eidolon next day if Whiskers flips town or chosen.

[rapidcanyon]

RC you accomplished exactly the opposite of what you set out to do.

if whiskers flips town and we both make it to the next dp go ahead and try to lynch me.

What are you taking about?

[rapidcanyon]

This is so ridiculous. What about her did you two find so alluring that you won't give a near-confirmed townie a single day to make a case? You guys cannot be serious. This is so ridiculous. She is obvious scum laughing her ass off that all my attempts to lynch her have failed. You guys can't be serious. A DAY. That is all I wanted. Some TIME to think about stuff.

[Eidolon]

you wanted to stop whiskers from getting hammered.

if you didn't go all incessant crazy monster i wouldn't have minded waiting because i was doing it mainly for your sake.

[rapidcanyon]

Congrats, Eidolon, you are really one of a kind. Somehow whenever, you are active and put some effort into the game, you have the town wrapped around your pinky finger. You are really the best of the best both on this site and DDO. I am just frustrated but putting that aside, I do admire your skills a lot. You got to teach me how to play mafia. At one point, I thought we were both equal on skill level. This game showed me that it was all just an illusion. I am nowhere even close to you based on skills. You are up here and I am down there. Oh, well, at some point, I hope to be as good as you. Well played.

[rapidcanyon]

you wanted to stop whiskers from getting hammered.

if you didn't go all incessant crazy monster i wouldn't have minded waiting because i was doing it mainly for your sake.

Sorry, I sometimes get frustrated.

[Eidolon]

Congrats, Eidolon, you are really one of a kind. Somehow whenever, you are active and put some effort into the game, you have the town wrapped around your pinky finger. You are really the best of the best both on this site and DDO. I am just frustrated but putting that aside, I do admire your skills a lot. You got to teach me how to play mafia. At one point, I thought we were both equal on skill level. This game showed me that it was all just an illusion. I am nowhere even close to you based on skills. You are up here and I am down there. Oh, well, at some point, I hope to be as good as you. Well played.

thanks ^^;

i think you just cise me up though, i'm not all that. i don't wrap town around my finger lol.

this doesn't make me forget your last snark about me convincing them because im "so alluring"

you've got your own skills too.. ive seen you catch countless scum.

[Eidolon]

btw your giving me too much credit because im NOT SCUM. i'm town and whiskers is like.. 98% scum.

[Eidolon]

if she's town i might cry lmao

[inte]

btw your giving me too much credit because im NOT SCUM. i'm town and whiskers is like.. 98% scum.

who is if (s)he isn't?

[rapidcanyon]

And everyone disappears.

If I am killed tonight, I will just say that Eidolon was scared that people may unvote after reading the case so she quickhammered before anyone could respond.

Pedit: lol. You convinced them so deeply that they won't unvote to hear a case. Yes, you are alluring and charming. You were the one that initially caught my interest in playing mafia.

[rapidcanyon]

LOL, if whiskers is scum and the game ends... lolol. I don't even know if I'll be able to carry on a conversation with Eidolon without wanting to bury my head in my shirt. haha.

[rapidcanyon]

To be honest, I was considering the possibility that whiskers may be scum. When he bandwagoned on Pasch based on the WEAKEST part of my case (that Pasch called out whiskers for lying of being vig), it set off some scum alarms. I was about to believe Eidolon and vote whiskers but the whole hammer before he responds thing sidetracked me as well as Eidolon's ...

[rapidcanyon]

btw your giving me too much credit because im NOT SCUM. i'm town and whiskers is like.. 98% scum.

who is if (s)he isn't?

Yeah, answer this question. If it isn't whiskers, then who?

[Eidolon]

@ inte. it could be anyone really. but i'd venture a guess that it's not rc.

@ rc. well thanks. but i think you project your own feelings about me onto the other players. they had good reasons to stay with the whiskers wagon. theres only so much that can be said once you are convinced someone is scum, and you treated them rather aggressively. that can be offputting. it certainly made me want to hammer EVEN MORE rather than convince me not to.

and i reacted to that feeling rather than stay level headed which is why you started going after me and was bad play on my part O.o

[rapidcanyon]

Potentially losing if Inte was scum didn't discourage you?

[Eidolon]

yes. but that was the rational part that caused me to stall for as long as i did. that was part that i considered and why i didn't hammer to begin with. and at that point i was confident enough that is was whiskers, and confident enough that if it wasn't her, i'd be able to defend myself against a lynch, because i know i'm town.

and i still hold that position which is why i didn't mind hammering once you made your case. i'll respond to it next dp if it comes to that.

if whiskers flips town, i'll probably think inte is the last scum, though i will reevaluate mcstab. it depends on who dies i guess.

[rapidcanyon]

But you see, that was completely irrational. If you are not scum, why would scum kill me at all KNOWING that my vote on you is guaranteed and they can hammer you at LYLO?

[Eidolon]

it depends on who is chosen.

there will only be one townie left that they can kill.

i was willing to take my chances on all of that.

and willing to take my chances that if both of us made it to tomorrow, you would be reasonable enough to think about it before you placed your vote up for me, and i might be able to convince you.

[rapidcanyon]

If whiskers was chosen, it is open season. They can kill the other chosen townie.

Okay, let's see what whiskers flips as. We can discuss it all next day if the game doesn't end and we are both alive. No point speculating now.

Off to a different game now

[inte]

thats why the whiskers lynch doesn't unsettle me

i don't think hes a chosen

[Eidolon]

^well 2 townies left if whiskers is chosen. but still. the odds of this were all in my favor because i FIRMLY BELIEVE that whiskers is scum.

[rapidcanyon]

Can't wait for the mod... Come on mod.

[rapidcanyon]

Whiskers, were you the last scum?

[Whiskers]

the hammer was stupid, at least i thought i made my intentions clear that i wanted to say something potentially important

Lol, you forgot about the loooooong period of time during which you could have said something potentially important, but didn't.

---

Well the first part of RC's case is something that is hard to respond to. I have no idea why grey gave those statements about me. It was possibly to appease rc. It was possibly to go without having a firm opinion on me so he could either mislynch or buddy to me if the sitaution called for that. But I really have no way to respond to this besides speculation.

When looking at something that a confirmed scum said, we know that much of it is filled with wifom and cannot be taken as completely credible. For instance I thought RGF was surely chosen for the way that Grey kept going after him, but rgf was just vanilla. It does give us ideas, but cannot be used as a main FOS on someone.

It does put me off a little that you go, "Well, all the stuff Greywing said in regards to me was WIFOM, so you can't analyse it!"

But I do like this tally system.

Let's look at how many times he comments on or quotes someone else:

RGF II
Mcstab IIIIII
Whiskers I
RC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Eidolon IIIIIIIII
inte/ crypto I

I think this is more credible information than speculative wifom about who he called scum/town. Why was he so comfortable commenting on me, Rc, and mcstab, but left whiskers and inte completely untouched? Inte was barely in the game, so that is reasonable, but whiskers was there.

Let's look at his post in 291. This is what he said in regards to RC flipping chosen:

If you end up flipping Chosen, then I'll look at Eid, and I'd probably need to look at McStab as well. As the leader of your wagon, he'd naturally fall under suspicion. I find it unlikely that I'll see anything other then a scum flip however.

Why me and mcstab? Why not whiskers?

Well, for one thing, both you and MCStab were attacking RC at the time, and I wasn't. If RC flipped Chosen, how could it imply me being scum??? You're just trying to make me look bad? He didn't leave me out because I was his scumbuddy, he left me out because I wouldn't be implicated in the hypothetical scenario.

Whiskers was questioning you initially, calling you scummy and buddying with you at the same time. I think that's more suspicious than an outright attack because she's leaving scum motivated options open. (posts 114, 119, 176 ) She's being sooo opportunistic with her posts here. The fact that grey disregards her completely is another tell.

Whoa whoa, WHAT? Buddying, where? Calling bullshit on that one-- you don't even try to back it up.
Also, holy shit: you're lazy. I put links in since you can't be bothered.
[Posts[/i] are opportunistic, now? How is 114 so? I said, "I have suspicion on these players because of this." How, HOW is that opportunistic? In that, I saw the opportunity to post, and so I did? "Ah, look there's a box at the bottom of this page so that I may input text and post it! What an opportunity!" Is that what you meant? I'm not getting this.
119 is opportunistic? I answered a site-question posed by RC. If you'll recall, he's new around here. Jesus christ, how is this opportunistic? I wasn't even casting suspicion. "AHA! HERE'S a REAL opportunity to answer a question! BWUAHAHAHAHAHAA!" What are you trying to accuse me of? Please be more specific than "opportunistic."
Similarly, give me some reasoning on 176, please? You're going, "this and this and this are scummy!" but I' afraid I'll need you to explain in more detail. I'm sure I could pick three posts out of the air and say they are opportunistic without reading them, and leave town to come to their own conclusions about "why" or "how." Oh, and I'll not link them, so it'll make it harder for them to check and see for themselves. They'll just take my word for it.

---

Whiskers did something scummy and i explained WHY. i had multiple posts about why i thought she was scummy. So there's no reason why i SHOULDN'T change my read in that situation. It doesn't show scum motivation because i had a legit reason as to why whiskers seemed scummier.

Er, well, that's not exactly true, the part about "having a legit reason" and "ergo no scum motivation," but I'll let that go for the juicier morsel:
I did something scummy? You mean the part where I said we should lynch me and you? I didn't push the idea, I only suggested it. You got your panties in a bunch-- maybe because you're kind of dead set on survival. I'd even have been willing to go first, but it never got past the stage of, "hey what do you think about this". Maybe it was a good plan and you're scum, so you wanted to shoot it down? idk!

Also, at that point, mcstab made a post about rgf possibly being chosen. It made more sense to me that grey would go after a chosen rather than his buddy so that helped me steer away from rgf.

Fair enough. Although, on the other hoof, it does give you that motive to kill him (of "he was the most vanilla townie-looking" that you gave earlier).

It's only scummy when you are changing opinions without valid reasoning or having one opinion and doing something else (ie whiskers reaction to you, saying you are scum in one post and then trying to coach you in the next.)

Whoops, what? Did I change my opinion without valid reasoning? You forgot to back this up. My saying he is scum in one post, and "coaching" him in the next is inconsistant how? I'm suggesting, no matter what his alignment in this game, that he should go play a Newbie game to better learn how to play. How is this telling?

How is this telling??

---

However we need to be careful today and not rush to a lynch. It could be inte for all i know though i'm leaning strongly on whiskers. I also have a response for whisker's response to me in regards to grey more likely being chosen and how that is completely untrue.

It's really cool how you keep SAYING you have answers for this, but NEVER give them. The post you DO address SOME of my points, you say, "I'm far too important to have a debate, so I'll just be vague and try to make you look bad."

---

I'm not into getting into this over-anal back and forth point by point argument with whiskers, so i'll just respond to a few things that she said.

GOD! I'm so OVER-ANAL! More likely, I'm right, you're wrong, and you know it. You're avoiding the points I brought up against you, and questions

I asked of you

, so you don't look bad, but try to build strawmans with what's left over.

I often nitpick. You and RC know full well how much I nitpick. RC has seen me nitpick cases apart until they fall down.

So she admits to nitpicking often. Then she should NOT use that as justification to back down from grey suspicion and not anyone elses.

Hey, nice misrep: I did not back down from suspicion on Greywing.

The point was that she singled someone out, she singled A SCUM OUT in backtracking on her read on him, not whether or not the nitpicking was scummy.

I singled all of the players out. It was a fucking list in which I listed all of the players and said, "Here is what I think of this, this, this, and this player."
Therefore, I also singled out the second mafia, both of the chosen townies, and all of the vanilla townies. Having singled out a scum in a list in which the

point

was to single out players is not telling.
I did not backtrack on my read on Greywing. Post 301 for reference. The things I listed against Greywing were:
-Ignoring RC's scummy townmeta
-Unconvincing posts cautioning against the Paschwagon
-A bad feeling.
Since none of these are particularly scummy, I suggested that I may just be nitpicking, but then contradicted that hesitation: "Maybe I'm just looking for things to nitpick, BUT I have a bad feeling about you, Greywing."

My read was never stronger than that. At the time, I had two scumreads-- you and RGF, and Greywing was "a bad feeling." The weak read on him might be scummy (that's where scum like to hide their buddies on their reads-lists), but I did

not

"backtrack on Greywing," as you suggested.

I'd like to reiterate the fact that whiskers was avoiding my case because she didn't want a grey lynch.

Wait, what? When did you iterate this the first time? What case? I didn't want a Grey lynch? WHAT?? What are you talking about?

Look at our interaction. My post 319, whiskers 322, my 345, and her 348.

Er, what about them? In 319, you tried to defend yourself with "WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?! THIS IS ALL SPECULATION!!!" And in 322 I said, "Uh, yeah. Having no hard facts and not knowing who the scum is, OF COURSE it is speculation." Consider: All the things you are attacking me for now is speculative. In 322, I also point out where you misrepped me in 321, (saying that I tired to "tie us together",) where you used a catchphrase, (not lynching the "Obvious scum"), and tried to analyse the wagon and come to some kind of point but couldn't, because we had TWO inactive playerslots.

my reasoning:

Whiskers, what i meant about lynching grey over one of us is that there is no reason to think he is less likely to be chosen than you or me. So why try to lynch me AND THEN YOUR OWN SELF when grey has been more visibly scummy? It just doesn't make sense to me. It makes me think that i am chosen and you are just trying to lynch me. I get that would be obvious so i'm not certain that is your motive but i honestly see no other reason on why you would say that. I can provide a case on him later if you don't think he's scummy.

whiskers' response:

I'm not saying Greywing isn't scummy. I'm saying that it might be better play to lynch VTs, since mafia wants CTs dead, and mafia will be trying to hide in with the VTs while attacking CTs.

Mafia will try to hide as VTs while attacking CTs.
CTs will think they are VTs and will look like VTs except for Mafia attack them.
VTs who aren't CTs are either VTs (lynchable without consequence as long as both CTs are alive) or Mafia (who we want to lynch in the first place.

She completely ignores my point and my question while talking about wifom theory about what mafia would do. I want to know why she would lynch me and then HER OWN SELF over grey. There is NO REASON to think that grey was chosen townie. she NEVER tells me WHY she would think that grey is possibly chosen.

I forgive you for not understanding me, but yes, I DID answer your question.
QUESTION: Why lynch Eido and Whiskers instead of Greywing?
ANSWER: Greywing may be scum or a CT. Eido and Whiskers are probably scum or VTs, not CTs.

If that wasn't your point, I'm not sure what was.
Also, consider: there is NO scum motivation to be lynched before my scummy scumbuddy. If My scumbuddy is going down, I am not going to stand around and say, "Hey, lynch me instead!" That would be stupid. Better to save face and towncred and bus him into the ground.

Finally THIS day period she gave me some answers:

-Neither you nor I had come under as much suspicion as Greywing by the time we lynched him.

Not true. Before the grey lynch started, her and RC both suspected me. Only rc had suspected grey. Multiple posts were spent of me trying to prove myself to be town from attacks. There. Immediately I show that i had come under more suspicion than grey (by one of the mafia members, whiskers, no less.)

I'm sorry that you misread: By the time Greywing was lynched, RC, YOU, ME, and McStab

at the very least

suspected Greywing. That is more suspicion than either of us had had.

So me and grey had the same amount of votes.

So what? .___.

But grey's came from two people who found him scummy. Mine came from one scum, and one townie who thinks i'm scum in EVERY SINGLE GAME we play because i've tricked him a few times as mafia and he's paranoid about me escaping him. Anyway, this point by whiskers is FALSE.

Er, you're acting as though I'm already confirmed scum-- as a townie, you'd have no way of knowing that.
Both of your votes also came from two people who found you scummy.
The point by Whiskers is not false. The point you twisted it to become is false, but had you addressed the point I had made, instead of making up a false one, you'd have seen that it's not.

-We were thought to be VTs by Village-Leader McStab, so were under at least some protection from a lynch that day.

Mcstab thought that RC/ RGF were chosen. This means that he thought grey was either VT OR SCUM. So this point is completely invalid. FALSE.

In what way is this false?

-Clever mafia wouldn't push for Chosen Townies right away anyway, for fear of

Thanks for telling me your game plan.

Well-- yeah. That's why I shared it: It's what I would do as scum. I think it should be taken into consideration.

She completely disregarded her other point that she thought grey could have been chosen due to the amount of votes he had acquired by saying this.

She's lying. She's squirming. Lynch her.

Ok, firstly: iirc I said that Greywing had more of a chance to be Chosen than either one of us. That does not mean that he IS chosen, or that I thought him particularly LIKELY to be Chosen, it is what it is: Greywing had MORE of a chance to have been a CT (based on votes and suspicion) than either of us did.
Secondly: If you'll recall, I also had a scumread on Greywing. Being third scumread maybe isn't ideal, but I don't pretend to be 100% accurate and clearly, at least one of my top scumreads (RGF and you) was wrong.
THIRDLY: Even if he had been Chosen, I would have shrugged and continued playing. the Chosen Townie mechanic is to hinder scum. Games have been won for town without it. We just would have had to change our tactics back to normal scumhunting.
I'm not lying, I'm not squirming, and I think you may have already lynched me, let me go read the other seven or so pages.