Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[evilpacman18]

Lol at mechanics discussion. Loller at numbers discussion. Lollest at the amount of attempted logic up to page 3.

It's like watching children bicker over the rules in gym class freezetag. I see more arguing over meta and interpretation of post "sarcasm" than anything else.

In fact, I should ask for a raise of hands, for anyone who is actually trying right now.

How about contributing in a way that helps to fix the issue then, instead of sitting back and watching it happen?

[mykonian]

votecount

PMysterious (4): mcstab, eleison, theomoaner, smashbard
maenara (2): jun, pirate mollie
mcstab (1): shinori
telo (1): dividizzle
theomoaner (1): Hiraki
pirate mollie (1): maenara

not voting (6): evilpacman, harpocrates, thermal, NJAC, pmysterious, telo

[theomoaner]

*deletes*

^^Ninja'd

@Mollie - Can we have some logic to go with that question? It might help the rest of understand your "conclusions"

[evilpacman18]

oh I just realized theomoaner is scummy. Bad read on PM is bad and possibly was supposed to fake some justification of the vote that's really just there to capitalize on the terrible PM pressure wagon.

[Eleison]

First off, I'm not one to jump into discussion of mechanics and explain the things that are easily researchable by simply reading past games.

Second, I am indeed doing things. I'm just saving myself from being trapped in the early game antitown discussion that is already happening.

My plan seems to have worked, and if no one noticed, I'd be kind of surprised. RVS has essentially ended now. Whoever said I wad reaction fishing was half right. The other half was attempting to create ACTUAL discussion about others reactions to reactions aimed at me. The goal was there, but obviously, I won't just go out and say "oh hey guys I wanna see how you react to my vote on someone who already has a vote, when I say the words, "I have a plan.""

Why are we applying no pressure, and analyzing meta from ppl with one/two shared games under their belt? Someone please explain the incredible validity that provides.

Who voted for who based on the assumption that X is scum, vs X can provide us with knowledge? Don't answer that aloud, just think about this to yourself.

And why is no one in serious consideration of an early Day1 wagon for informational purposes? Everyone I see, has generally played in a way that gaurentees that the first person with a wagon on him/her won't be lynched same day. It's stupid, to apply pressure, and take it off on the grounds that it's too early, not enough discussion, and empty threat. The old "no one would hammer them, and if they do they're scum" is a wasted argument because no one actually applies it to D1 info gathering. It's a waste of time to apply pressure and not follow through, and worse yet, it's common gameplay to pass off empty threats as legit scumhunting.

Quite frankly, I see it as a waste of time and effort. Voting for information and voting for scum are two different things.


ALL THAT BEING SAID!

Shinori, explain yourself and your crappily defended vote. FOS applied.

Mae and mollie, quit intown bickering.

[theomoaner]

And here was me thinking my vote was based on (to paraphrase the wiki on RVS)

humerously

flawed logic. Apparently I was wrong...

That makes me scum then doesn't it? So why are you not voting for me?

[Jun]

Hey guys, I'mma leave my vote on evilpacman18 because he has FOS'ed many times yet has refused to vote. Maybe if we get enough votes on him he'll be forced to vote someone and actually do something. EPM put your money where your mouth is. Not voting, I have learned, is scum trying to avoid making a stand.

VOTE: evilpacman18

Why haven't you decided to vote yet?

[Jun]

What happens when you over speculate on the setup
Read the first 5 pages. They're easy and pretty hilarious.

Your refusal to vote in our current game sticks out to me like a sore thumb. In the game you linked, you were town and you participated in RVS and voted your suspicions as well. Why the sudden change in play?

[theomoaner]

Let me get this right Eleison. Your plan was to drop a vote on Pmyst, see how people reacted, and then completely ignore the results of your plan, as evidenced by your complete lack of any comment about me and/or Smashbard? In fact you then go on to question Shinori. Not much of a plan then.

Incidentally, My opinion of meta-gaming is that all it does is gets noobs lynched. I certainly learned from my first game so I played my second differently, does that mean I had a different role?. And what about people who are experimenting with different styles of play, so pish to your "analyzing meta".

Also your entire post #79 was a waffle on theory and game mechanics, something you were just complaining about.

[Jun]

Incidentally, My opinion of meta-gaming is that all it does is gets noobs lynched. I certainly learned from my first game so I played my second differently, does that mean I had a different role?. And what about people who are experimenting with different styles of play, so pish to your "analyzing meta".

I think that regardless of how evilpacman18 played in the game he linked and his meta info, it's a legitimate request to pressure him into actually laying down a vote. Especially in a game where he has so many FOS directed at others.

[Eleison]

Well being as you had 2 whole posts for me to attempt to analyze prior to me posting my block of general concepts that is not being exhibited by anyone really, I'm not sure what you want exactly. My bitching on game mechanics that no one is doing is different from "oh I'll go to the wiki and look it up", and general meta analysis which as you said, tends to drive noobs to being lynched, regardless of their alignment. Bringing up role speculation and size of the scumteam is hardly indicative of learning anything town, which I'm sure you know, and I'm sure reading through two of a hundred games before this would clarify, since ppl always seem to ask that. Hell, the wiki even generally mentions it, but why openly say you are going to cite it, when you could just do it? Useless trash posts that accomplish nothing but generate offtopic posting, which is not related to actual scumhunting. I'm shocked that I need to point this out.

I also did ask a few questions on there, that I actually expect answers to. Not because I want in your heads, but because: One, it promotes discussion, and discussion is far from antitown. Two, discussion leads to reads, which is even further from antitown.

Why am I ignoring Smash? Read below, but replace the post counts with accurate numbers.

Why am I not voting you? Why am I ignoring your sarcastic jump from your second of four posts? Because I don't find you scummy, obviously, and I don't feel as though pressuring you at this moment will accomplish anything, as you are not carrying the most votes. However, discussing my reads on who I think is town is irrelevant, as it doesn't actually help find scum. I'll stick to primarily posting reads on scum, kicking a few heads to knock sense back into the picture, and voting for who I think is scum, or who I think will inevitably draw out scum.

[theomoaner]

oh I just realized theomoaner is scummy. ...

Did you just "realize" this or were you told to vote this way by your scumbbudies in your QT?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: EvilPacMan18

It's not like you just noticed my post that yo "just realised" is quite scummy as it features quite prominently in your post 59

This is now a serious vote. You can analyze it anyway you like.

[theomoaner]

I am, of course, aware that you are not voting for me at this point.

[Telo]

Dang! Day started yesterday already on page four. I'll be reading throughout the day and try to respond tonight so let me know if you have any questions.

[Hiraki]

Jun didn't do this?

No, but to be fair I see where you're coming from on this point.

There's a lack of quality and an entire thought process between the two.

I'll have to decide for myself what is right and wrong until some actual concrete proof surfaces.

Except that there is no concrete proof on if someone is scum. A townie is able to do everything that a scum can do(this is verbally-wise, not action-wise obviously)

there's just a higher percent that a scummer will do something rather than a townie

You're not really refuting anybody's points, you're just sarcastically blowing smoke out your ears everytime someone disagrees with you.

Damn, you got me.

Is that why you didn't refute any of my points?

Get your head out your ass. My sarcasm is there for a reason. It's just to make a point. I can be serious if you want. I've done it before.

Hell, let's do this.

Dear Everyone,

Hi! It's Hiraki! He wants to know if this sarcasm thing isn't working for everyone so he can go full-blown 100% aggressive motherfucker like he's pseudo-doing right now. Would you like this?

Only 3 votes are required to initiate

From,
Hiraki

See? Now we just wait!

AN RVS VOTE?!?!?!

An RVS Vote that's based off of someone's actions?

Like you didn't paraphrase what he said in a post and then vote him?

Or did you just randomly paraphrase him and then randomly vote him--having nothing to do with what you said.

And, in conjunction, I'm just about 99% sure that was a 3rd vote on the wagon. So it was really convenient for pressure reasons for an RVS vote, right?

Seriously. Do you guys think I'm a fucking blind idiot?

where did he do this?

How are you managing to hunt scum in post 3 with only two playes posted?

Right there. He's voting someone(though for RVS reasons because this is totally random) because they said something that can not possibly be true or if it is true it's absurd.

I don't think PMysterious said it for actual scumhunting purposes and maybe on an extraordinary low level did he say it to get us out of RVS but it did the job quite well.

smashbard stood out on p1 but it was interesting to read hikari's soft support sandwhiched between some hard foses.

Can you quote what you're talking about here?

unreadable-to-newbies-ness

Joined : August 10, 2012

Yeah, you can shut the fuck up and sit down. Thanks. I'm going to rag on you the entire game for saying this shit.

And it's not really for the effort of calling me a newb--I'm completely fine with anyone calling me a newb. I don't really care.

However, I do care when I see this shit.

Might give that an extra careful read tonight, but more likely it'll be tomorrow or Wednesday. For the rest

So, basically, you haven't even read the thread that carefully and you have the balls to call our conversation a "unreadable-to-newbies-ness"?

Not even that, you won't even give a reason why it's bad.

Basically, you're sputtering shit and it stinks.

No one likes to smell shit.

And hey, you got a piss buddy too.

In fact, I should ask for a raise of hands, for anyone who is actually trying right now.

Joined : July 19, 2012

You two. Buddy up now.

Not-so-subtle attack at the person who RVSed you - by indicating that they're lurking, no less, in spite of it only having been roughly 21 hours since said person's last post, and the majority of said hours (Read: About fourteen) having been spent asleep or engaged in that fearsome thing we know as education - followed by an attempt to link together two other players, making observations and poking for reactions, but not committing to anything at all.

I will admit this is a decent accusation, though.

You say you're not new to Mafia? I say you're scum.

This is a horrible conclusion that's trying to be something of CSI. Don't try this again, thanks.

However,

lol, worst OMGUS and revenge vote ever!

This is a bad reaction.

If I had a second vote, it'd be on Pirate.

Meanwhile, Eleison, whose only noteable post so far has been blatant breadcrumbing/softclaiming, criticizes the play of everyone else, and then continues to ... ... Do absolutely nothing? Not try to lead by example at all?

I take it back. It was probably an over-reaction on my part.



Pretty much exactly what I would've said. I apologize.

Pirate. You may have played

a

game of mafia.

But you are being pretty close to mental right now.

If I had two votes, one would be on you.

[Hiraki]

EWBOP: Let me restate that last bit on Pirate.

Pirate. You probably have played

a

game of mafia.

Do not think you can waltz in here and be scumhero numero uno.

You're probably last at this point.

[Maenara]

Hiraki, a short comment on what I was trying to say: You're all experienced players, or at least more so than me. Because of this, the assumptions made by you might not be as easily parsed by those of us who haven't played for as long. It was not meant as a point of criticism, but merely an explanation of why I didn't touch on that part of the thread - It's quite simply harder to get a decent read out of that discussion when you're new, compared to, say, trying to get a rise out of Eleison or Pirate.

This might not have been as clear as I wanted it to be, but I'll blame that on the aforementioned headache.

[mykonian]

thurhame replaces harpocrates, thank you very much thurhame!

[Telo]

I'd like to drop a random vote for two reasons. I think it would be awesome to just guess a scum right off the bat and because I don't want to be on the not voting list.
So I guess - Jun. We'll see where that goes.
VOTE: Jun

[evilpacman18]

what

[pirate mollie]

*deletes*

^^Ninja'd

@Mollie - Can we have some logic to go with that question? It might help the rest of understand your "conclusions"

this one?:

eta: oh and do you have a question for me or are you just going to ride on the mischaracterisation of my 1 post?

I thought it was pretty self explanatory. or are you talking about my obvious baiting of maenara omg as if he would say yes or something.

[pirate mollie]

However,

discussing my reads on who I think is town is irrelevant

, as it doesn't actually help find scum. I'll stick to primarily posting reads on scum, kicking a few heads to knock sense back into the picture, and voting for who I think is scum, or who I think will inevitably draw out scum.

I strongly disagree with this, I think it is always good for town to find each other that is how town wins games by voting as a block.

what makes you think that maenara and I are both town.

[pirate mollie]

smashbard stood out on p1 but it was interesting to read hikari's soft support sandwhiched between some hard foses.

Can you quote what you're talking about here?

in post #10 smashboard looks like he grabbed the ball, that is why it stood out. in other words he started controlling the narrative a bit at that point.

in post #41 you hardcored all over smash's ass but here you went kind of soft:

That basically gave McStab a free ticket out to be sarcastic.

I'm not saying that if McStab didn't have that post he would've been super serious or sarcastic--but you can't really apply it if nothing happened.

Anyway, your tells are wrong as well. It varies from person to person and the two spectrums are answering the question and not answering the question rather than how the person answers the question. If the person gives a straightforward answer (ala yes, no, simple one word stuff) then the person has a very slight townread. If the person dodges the question by trying to make a sarcastic answer (Well, I can't tell you that.) or completely ignores it, then the person has a slight(though greater than the town read) slant toward scum.

Also, reminding the person about the question invalidates most of this stuff as well. This is a tad bit overkill for something very minor in the end.

those are things I would expect a mentor to say their mentee cos this was kinda good stuff. that is why I asked if you guys had played previously together.

This is a bad reaction.

If I had a second vote, it'd be on Pirate.

does it not look like maenara did an OMGUS revenge vote yes or no

EWBOP: Let me restate that last bit on Pirate.

Pirate. You probably have played

a

game of mafia.

Do not think you can waltz in here and be scumhero numero uno.

You're probably last at this point.

whoa bro calm down. I am not trying to be anything, I am playing a game. what are you doing with your sputtering that only contributes to the noise level?

trying to do 2 things at once: figure out the dynamics of the mafia culture on this site and figure out the dynamics between the players. I am also setting out feelers and testing things out. but your defensiveness is noted.

[Eleison]

I strongly disagree with this, I think it is always good for town to find each other that is how town wins games by voting as a block.

what makes you think that maenara and I are both town.

Uhh, ok. Perhaps you want scum to know exactly what it is that you're thinking? If you're outing all your reads as to who is town as well as scum, you are giving scum exactly what they need in order to shift their gameplay to act more like those who you consider town, blend in, and be more successful in forcing mislynches while going along unnoticed.

Whereas, if you focus on finding scumtells from players, and highlight those instead of all the towntells that you and everyone else may have, then scum isn't at liberty to just start acting like the guy you and say, four others, designate as Town. They have to figure it out for themselves, which means they're more likely to shift their tone or shift their thought processes or make ridiculous leaps in logic in order to try to appear town.

Simply put: Point out that the "Bad guys" are "bad" by finding evidence against them, and voting for them/FOS'ing them (if more than one is evident). It's hard for bad guys to blend in when you're not pointing out why the "good guys" are "good". Just keep those thoughts to yourself. If it's that obvious to you, it's likely obvious to other players as well.

I think I've seen enough that I have a few suspicions as to who I believe is town, and who I believe is scum.

As for me thoughts on you and Mae being town? Let me restate what I've already said, in more of a little chart.

Who I will openly declare that I think is scum:
Telo (for #88 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4323911 and #93 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php? )p=4324085#p4324085
EvilPacman (for #78 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4323297

Who I used as a form of a scapegoat, to find scum:
PMysterious

Who I think is town:
None of your business.

[Hiraki]

Who I think is town:
None of your business.

Once I'm done with theo, your buddy, you're next. Then Pirate and then Russian Roulette.

Everyone loves games, so let's play that one after the hard work is done.