Open 451.2: Vengeful Mafia

[Om of the Nom]

@Whisky: Since if I'm suspected by both people it wouldn't be hard to sway the other townie into voting me.

Oh and to add to my point above Whisky only has 40 posts as of his latest one.

[Om of the Nom]

#Explained and defended the lists.

No, you explained the theory behind them but not the actual reads and reasons.

[Whiskers]

Did you seriously replace all instances of "Klick" with "kondi2424" in my quotes?

[preedit]
How... what's the difference? I explained the theory behind them--

why they work,

you need, uh, different reasons?
I didn't explain the reads because I wasn't using reads. I was Eliminating likely pairs.

[Om of the Nom]

Whisky: Who is the GF and why?

This is something you need to answer since you haven't answered this directly at all this whole game.

PEDIT: I'm using FoxReplace, I changed K-lick to Klick so that's why, also Salamenco and Whisky replace Sala-mence and W-hiskers respectively.
So you're not even going to bother reading people and are using PoE too.
God fucking damnit do you two even know how to play in a LYLO situation?

[Whiskers]

I didn't say that I WON'T, I said that I DIDN'T.

If I were determined to not bother reading people

at this stage,

I would have selfvoted already.

[Om of the Nom]

Why the hell would you use PoE over actual reads if you didn't even think your PoE held any water?

[Voidedmafia]

Post 60: Asking questions about a post and how it affects other's reads -- pushing the game forward.
Post 57: Pointing out something in Sala's post (even though it's not something I was pushing) -- pushing the game forward and advancing her reads
Post 70: Likely self-meta and stating who she'd shoot -- Helps further other's reads and possibly cluing people into her partner assuming she's scum.
78 and 121: Posting lists to analyze for pairings -- you already agreed this was good stuff.
Post 131: Pointing out an inconsistency in Klick's posts -- Furthering her read on Klick and helping others assess their reads (at least, I believe this furthered your scumread on Klick. I could be wrong.)
213: Stating her preferred shots -- Can help determine potential partners with her.
223 and 4: Defense and/or discussion of her lists -- further a read on her, help possibly determine who potential partners could be pending one of the two's flips (in this case, helping determine partners with Sala since he flipped scum, even if her end result is lol-worthy). Also points out setup things, though this is arguably null.
Post 206: Stating a clear read on a player -- Helps others get a read on her and the person she's declaring the read on. In this case, since she's seemingly stating Om is town to her, it can help people determine if either A.) She's town and beleives Om to be scum, or B.) She's scum and Om's her partner (possibly the GF), and thus is trying to make sure he doesn't die. Obviously B is no longer an option, but still.

Most of these things point to Whisky being town via furthering potential discussion and reads for herself and other people. Is that good enough for you?

[Whiskers]

Is there something you're not understanding? I'll put it in new terms for you:

Before:
#I was using POE, not reads.
#I was under the impression POE would let us win the game pretty easily, if we caught one scum Day 1.

Now:
#I will go and read the game, look as players' ISOlated posts, and make cases, etc. I've got my bowl of cereal, I've already got my head back into mafia, I might as well just do it now.
#I no longer am 100% on my lists, considering that, if my lists

were

correct, I would have to believe that I was the last scum player.

Clearer?

[Whiskers]

That^ was @Om.

[Om of the Nom]

Tell me, how much does Whisky actually state where everyone is in her reads compared to others?
I only count one post.
Also the fact that a lot of what you cleared her for is that Whisky is saying things that may help determine partners makes me wonder if you've actually tried to determine partners using those posts.

Have you actually noticed the fact that I'm trying to get you both to post a lot more and answer questions and give reads on people and give reads myself and actually reason with people and give reasons and basically a whole bunch of shit that either Whisky hasn't done or I've done more of.
And yet I'm just a fucking PoE scumread.

Voided either you're scum or fucking terrible this game.

PEDIT: Fine, but do it ASAP.

[Om of the Nom]

What do you actually make of the fact that literally everything Whisky did D1 was just by PoE?

[Om of the Nom]

Do you actually think my actions are the same as the last game?
Do you think my actions make sense as scum?

Answer these.
Also fucking make a case on me, PoE won't cut it here.

[Om of the Nom]

That was to Voided btw

[Voidedmafia]

Tell me, how much does Whisky actually state where everyone is in her reads compared to others?
I only count one post.
Also the fact that a lot of what you cleared her for is that Whisky is saying things that may help determine partners makes me wonder if you've actually tried to determine partners using those posts.

Reads aren't everything to determining alignment (though I did notice that and wish there was more). She has content, good enough content, which I've clearly shown.

Also, even if I haven't, the point was that the possibility was there. If I don't use that chance to determine partners that's my fault, not hers. This point is thus void.

Have you actually noticed the fact that I'm trying to get you both to post a lot more and answer questions and give reads on people and give reads myself and actually reason with people and give reasons and basically a whole bunch of shit that either Whisky hasn't done or I've done more of.

...ummm, no? (maybe?)

(Cookie if you understand what I'm doing there.)

And yet I'm just a fucking PoE scumread.

I ISO'd Whisky. I found her to be town.

Thus, via this town read, you are scum via PoE.

Anything else? Well, other than ISOing you, but that will wait until after college because I have to get to bed, like, quick.

1st P-EDIT: And?

2nd P-EDIT: idunno, I'll have to, yknow, check.

3rd P-EDIT: 'Course PoE can cut it. Furthermore, I've explained how I came to this PoE. Making a case on you being scum is unnecessary since I've already made a case for Whisky being town.

[Om of the Nom]

Voided
You're a fucking idiot
You have a townread on one player so the other player must be scum
You haven't even given the other player a chance to be town
You managed to find the time to "make a case" on that person being town
When you could have fucking READ MY ISO INSTEAD

Why the fuck are you so focused on defending Whisky?

Please, just fucking be scum and fess up because your play this game is disappointing at best regardless of alignment.

[Whiskers]

Okay, I can't lie. I have a lot of confirmation bias right now.
But I ISO VM and Om together and already, immediately, I get,

So, Klick and Sala are being derps this time, huh?

Sala's obvbussing, though.

I was seeing Sala/Whiskers.

Gonna have to sell me on the Whisky part.

Learned: Sala is scum, Whisky is town

Aah, and I'm glossing over most of the game. Here's why: Voided doesn't post too often, but posts townish things when he does. Om posts more often, but posts a lot of filler.

This evidence is contrary to my reads; I believe Om is town.
At the end of the first Day he made a Huge deal about "Shoot Sala, not me." He knows that it doesn't matter

which

mafia-member is shot; the game does not end.
If someone wants to refute this point, I can see one possible way to do it.

The other large reason is recent: he's attacking me. I don't see any reason for him to do as scum. I

think

he thinks it's that harder of the two paths he could take as scum. I think he thinks he could get Voided lynched more easily than me lynched. The rebuttal to this point is, "But he just played you last game. He has to switch it up, or you'll catch on to him."

Sorry, Om, I'm pretty much stopping here. I'm not into it tonight.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided
You're a fucking idiot
You have a townread on one player so the other player must be scum
You haven't even given the other player a chance to be town
You managed to find the time to "make a case" on that person being town
When you could have fucking READ MY ISO INSTEAD

Why the fuck are you so focused on defending Whisky?

Please, just fucking be scum and fess up because your play this game is disappointing at best regardless of alignment.

I

did

say I don't have time to ISO you tonight, so...Why so mad?

Also, making a towncase on someone=making a scumcase on someone else in a 3p LyLo. Sure, they're not certain-definite reads to vote on, but you're making a huge fuss out of almost nothing here. There's always a chance that ISOing you will show you to be townier than Whisky; there's a chance that you show yourself to be townier or scummier than Whisky before I get there; there's also a chance that Whisky can do the same thing. Those are all things that can

possibly

happen in the roughly 9-10 hour span between me going to bed and getting a chance to actually post something on MS, either on campus or at home (well, except the first one, since that obviously requires having the time to go through your ISO in the first place).

For right now, Whisky is a townread to me, so this translates to you being scum. That's all there is to it right now. And you getting all angry about the simple fact that

this is clearly not yet set in stone

doesn't help your case at all. Quite frankly, how you're acting right now makes me think you're scum desperate to get me to vote Whisky.

P-EDIT: Wait, if I'm easier to lynch...why not try to get me lynched?

[Voidedmafia]

I mean, that worked out SO WELL the last game (which, ironically, is the same 3p LyLo <_<). He clearly believes that I'm scum, or at least that's what I'm gathering. Unless you're turning around on your Omtown read, I'm still scum by PoE, so...

What's stopping ya? Either of ya?

[Voidedmafia]

(Though, I WOULD rather not get lynched while I"m sleeping, but I hope the point I'm making is clear.)

[Om of the Nom]

I'm fucking pissed off because all this confirmation bias is fucking frustrating. You're managing to find ways to twist almost everything I'm doing into a scummy mindset and all this is happening just because you have one fucking townread.
ONE FUCKING TOWNREAD
Don't you think the smarter thing to do would be to actually READ UP ON BOTH PLAYERS before deducing elaborate theories as to why the person left out is scum?

What I'm saying is, don't fucking go parading a townread (and PoE scumread) when you haven't even fucking looked at the other person at all.

[Whiskers]

That's about it, is that I don't have the energy or care right now to play the game. I'll do it later.
And, I want to come to an agreement. I want to see the other sides and get all the stories straight, because that's how I play mafia. I didn't even mean to lynch you last game, it was a gambit and I messed it up. I considered trying it again tonight. I decided against it.

[preedit]
That's the other thing. It's great that you have a townread on me, but it seems unjustified, and especially if you don't go and read Om's ISO to try to pick up a townread and compare them, I don't see how you can have such a confident read that he is scum.

It's like having two playing cards, and trying to determine which one has the higher value (1-10). Even if you look at the first one, and it's a six, you can't conclusively deduce that it is the higher card. You can guess, but until you look at the other card and compare them, you

can't

know which is more.

[Voidedmafia]

I'm fucking pissed off because all this confirmation bias is fucking frustrating. You're managing to find ways to twist almost everything I'm doing into a scummy mindset and all this is happening just because you have one fucking townread.
ONE FUCKING TOWNREAD
Don't you think the smarter thing to do would be to actually READ UP ON BOTH PLAYERS before deducing elaborate theories as to why the person left out is scum?

What I'm saying is, don't fucking go parading a townread (and PoE scumread) when you haven't even fucking looked at the other person at all.

So I can't tell you what my reads are...?

Also, I find what you're doing scummy regardless of my townread on Whisky, so...that's false, too.

Whisky: Obviously. But Om seems to think that I don't have the capacity to realize that and is trying shove it down my throat when it's already in my stomach and I don't need any more of it.

Again,

currently

, these are my reads. They have not yet been mitigated, enhanced, or whatever'd by an ISO of Om, thus while I'm confident in them (I CAN do that, right?), they aren't definite (and no, I haven't tried to say that these are definitely my reads that I'll stick to). Are both of you going to continue making mountains out of molehills or can I actually get around to doing what I need to do?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler: Because I've been press-ganged -_-

Whiskers is definitely scum, and if he isn't he's probably good enough to make the right shot.
Can we just lynch Whiskers?

Disagree because I have a townread on Whisky, but I'm not entirely sure why you think Whisky is scum here. What posts gave you this read?

No, I'm not willing to hammer a null read at this size of a game. I'm not sure if I could trust the odds of Sala flipping town and shooting correctly again.

Decent enough reason not to want to lynch Sala. I certainly can agree with it.

If Klick is town he should shoot either Voided or Sala, since I'm now sure they're scum.
Whiskers is actually town now that he isn't posting fluff.

Thinks Sala and I are scum, while Whisky is now a townread.

You say that Whisky is town because she hasn't posted fluff, but from what I've shown not all those posts are fluffworthy. Explain a little more?

You say Sala and I are scum here. Now that Sala's flipped as the Goon, do you still think I'm scum with him, or what?

Voided is wagon jumping way too much compared to his caution last game.
You just give me bad gut vibes.

Okay, reasoning to think that I'm scum, even if looks like it's more gut than anything.

Previous question about if I'm scum still stands, though.

I always refer to people as town unless I'm super duper sure they're scum. Sala is mainly just a PoE scumread to me.

Here you say that Sala is a PoE scumread, with not much of a scumcase around it. Why is this, when you've just heckled me for doing the same thing? What, exactly, is the difference, obvious or not?

Seriously, Sala is obvscum. He's more concerned about proving his credibility than proving I'm scum.

Okay, so here's some concrete reasoning for Sala-scum. I'll retract that "baseless PoE" line, but I still don't understand why you did that.

Don't shoot Voided anymore, shoot Sala. Whether or not it's Whiskers or Voided will be much clearer when Sala flips scum.

SO...what did Sala's flip tell you?

PEDIT: If you want to know why I'm not as confident on Voided being scum anymore is because your interactions with him and willingness to kill Voided makes me paranoid on whether you're bussing or just setting up for a mislynch.

Here you say I'm town because you're not sure if Sala is bussing or setting up a mislynch. Out of curiousity, which did you think was more likely?

Voided could be scum because he was really cautious with his vote unlike last game.
Voided could be town because Sala is way too eager to get rid of him and Sala is basically confirmed scum. But Sala could also just be bussing.
Whiskers could be scum because he posted way too much filler in the early-game. But I was doing this too, and I'm town.
Whiskers could be town because he's thinking things through instead of blindly jumping to conclusions.

You decided which you want to believe.

A list that's somewhat similar to the ones Whisky made, though each one does have reasoning with it (Whisky provided hers in later posts).

There, I fucking knew it.
I request that I vote first, if we lose this game I will take the blame.
Analysis will come later.

I feel like I should be reading something into that "I fucking knew it", but I'm not sure what.

WHy should we have let you vote first, again?

WHat's the dealio with the references in posts 257 and 258? What were you trying to do there?

Rest of the ISO is stuff I've dealt with, so it's not going in here.

Main thing that I can see is that, yes, Om has been clearer with his reads than Whisky (I think I already admitted that much is true). Yet, out of 82 posts, I only really found 10 or so that actually had any worth. In comparison to Whisky (stopping at post 37 as I think pretty much all the posts after that are contentful posts and such), I found about 10 in there that were good. 1 in about 4 posts is certainly much better than 1 in about 7-8 posts, so the argument that you've quantifiably done more is wrong. Whether the quality is better or worse isn't determined yet, but based on the arguments I've been presented with by you I don't see much reason to change my mind.

Just remember that I have yet to actually compare the quality of those 10-each posts of both of yours before you try to rip me a new one. That will be for tonight so long as nothing else comes up.

[Om of the Nom]

Whisky is definitely scum, and if he isn't he's probably good enough to make the right shot.
Can we just lynch Whisky?

Disagree because I have a townread on Whisky, but I'm not entirely sure why you think Whisky is scum here. What posts gave you this read?

All his posts had been fluff and no content at all. I cbf to check exactly when I said that, but at the time he may have already passed all that off as a reaction test (or just some of it) and I didn't like that either.

If kondi2424 is town he should shoot either Voided or Sala, since I'm now sure they're scum.
Whisky is actually town now that he isn't posting fluff.

Thinks Sala and I are scum, while Whisky is now a townread.

You say that Whisky is town because she hasn't posted fluff, but from what I've shown not all those posts are fluffworthy. Explain a little more?

You say Sala and I are scum here. Now that Sala's flipped as the Goon, do you still think I'm scum with him, or what?

Because Whisky wasn't posting anywhere near as much fluff anymore, I've explained I think they're fluff, I still think they're fluff, that's all there is to it.
Hmmm, take a look at EVERY POST TODAY. Maybe you might find that I'm hugely undecided on which of you is the lesser evil.

I always refer to people as town unless I'm super duper sure they're scum. Sala is mainly just a PoE scumread to me.

Here you say that Sala is a PoE scumread, with not much of a scumcase around it. Why is this, when you've just heckled me for doing the same thing? What, exactly, is the difference, obvious or not?

Mainly doesn't mean completely, I still had some bad gut vibes from him, and I actually ended up using reason to show why he's scum. You've barely given reason until I prodded you today.

Don't shoot Voided anymore, shoot Sala. Whether or not it's Whisky or Voided will be much clearer when Sala flips scum.

SO...what did Sala's flip tell you?

It would have told me who was scum but then I reread both of you and him together and realised how fucking inconclusive it was.
Though tbh that was just a bit of padding to make it sound like he was the better shot since frankly I knew he was going to flip scum anyway (totes not a scumslip).

PEDIT: If you want to know why I'm not as confident on Voided being scum anymore is because your interactions with him and willingness to kill Voided makes me paranoid on whether you're bussing or just setting up for a mislynch.

Here you say I'm town because you're not sure if Sala is bussing or setting up a mislynch. Out of curiousity, which did you think was more likely?

Beforehand I thought he was probably bussing, but then I literally had no idea whatsoever.

Voided could be scum because he was really cautious with his vote unlike last game.
Voided could be town because Sala is way too eager to get rid of him and Sala is basically confirmed scum. But Sala could also just be bussing.
Whisky could be scum because he posted way too much filler in the early-game. But I was doing this too, and I'm town.
Whisky could be town because he's thinking things through instead of blindly jumping to conclusions.

You decided which you want to believe.

A list that's somewhat similar to the ones Whisky made, though each one does have reasoning with it (Whisky provided hers in later posts).

Not really, since I don't actually have any absolutes and there aren't really any scumteam guesses just some connections to Sala. Also how I provide both sides of the argument to show my thought process.

WHy should we have let you vote first, again?

WHat's the dealio with the references in posts 257 and 258? What were you trying to do there?

Because if you both thought I was scum, it would have been best to let me vote first so you wouldn't have had to risk any quickhammers. However Whisky calling me town changes that a lot, but I still want the first vote.
They were so that I could try and deduce the buddy based on both your posts and Whisky cross-referenced with Sala, I just needed to keep track of the quotes I used.

Main thing that I can see is that, yes, Om has been clearer with his reads than Whisky (I think I already admitted that much is true). Yet, out of 82 posts, I only really found 10 or so that actually had any worth. In comparison to Whisky (stopping at post 37 as I think pretty much all the posts after that are contentful posts and such), I found about 10 in there that were good. 1 in about 4 posts is certainly much better than 1 in about 7-8 posts, so the argument that you've quantifiably done more is wrong. Whether the quality is better or worse isn't determined yet, but based on the arguments I've been presented with by you I don't see much reason to change my mind.

You seriously haven't read anything I've posted today have you? There is a goldmine of content and actually wanting to fucking win the game.

[Om of the Nom]

Also, I find what you're doing scummy regardless of my townread on Whisky, so...that's false, too.

NOTICE HOW THIS CAME AFTER THE FACT