Open 466: Nomination Mafia - Town Wins!

[Top12Gun]

VOTE: Ace.

WIFOM, pure and simple.

Explain to me how this is suspicious instead of a null tell.

I can only see a mafia having two reasons for doing what he did, to gain trust in the townies' eyes and to actually attempt to lynch someone. The first reason is basically null, as making what would most likely be interpreted as a joke vote has no effect on his innocence. While his vote can't mark him as scum, it obviously does not mark him as town.

In the case of actually attempting to lynch someone, he'll be forced to change his vote when discussion actually arrives, as more legitimate reasons for voting will appear and not doing so would be scummy. And if he lurks to get away with it, that in itself is a scumtell and an inefficient strategy due to activity rules. Besides, simply manipulating the town is much more efficient. So what does a mafia have to gain from that sort of vote?

In saying that it's WIFOM, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. But aren't you forgetting a possibility?? How about: He's calling for speed lynch because he doesn't care about who is lynched today, and maybe is fishing a bit about who he has to worry about. Tomorrow, he knows a bit more about who he wants to nominate.

Now, I could be wrong. However, especially in a game in which mafia controls every other lynch, I want to be exceptionally careful with our lynches. I don't like speed lynches anytime, and I really don't like them now. Scummy. The grain of salt isn't big enough to cancel out the scumminess that I see.

And your assumptions are crap since I'm town.

Why do you feel the need to stick this into your post?

Because he's full of BS, and I'm town. I'm getting annoyed...

I'd still rather speed lynch scum than talk a lot and lynch town.

So were you serious with your vote advocating speed lynching?

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

But I would view his approach of just asking it like he did and not saying much more as rather unhelpful. But that could just be me.

All I wanted was a response with your reasoning. Why would I need to say anything more?

Yeah, this was a BS feeler. Wanted to see how defensive you'd get.

Bussing.

How would this derive any benefit for Thor? It doesn't make Thor look innocent in any way, as Ace is the obvious candidate for lynch and none of his scumminess owes any debt to Thor.

But he IS distancing early from a sinking ship.

He rose to my bait so beautifully. If he was town and saw me behaving like an idiot he would have just ignored me.

Explain why a townie would ignore excessive scumtells when a jester doesn't exist.[/quote]

IDK, but he's incredibly scummy or a REALLY stupid town... Considering switching votes, but I think Thor is more dangerous.

I'd still rather speed lynch scum than talk a lot and lynch town.

So were you serious with your vote advocating speed lynching?

I dunno - I've never managed to get a speed lynch when I asked for it.

So why ask??

Rainbow, I'm well aware of Ace's summiness, and am on the verge of voting him. The only thing stopping me is what I see as Thor's scumminess and the fact that hopefully everyone already sees how scummy Ace is, and would lynch him after Thor.

To everyone not named Thor or Rainbow: Is it just me, or does it seem like Rainbow just chainsaw-defensed me??

[Thor665]

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

Why no commentary about me providing proof that I make that request as town?
If it's such a big part of your case on me...wouldn't you want to explore that?

Also, if you're so convinced Ace is my buddy you should be sheeping me. I am known to hard bus Day 1 sometimes.

[Top12Gun]

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

Why no commentary about me providing proof that I make that request as town?
If it's such a big part of your case on me...wouldn't you want to explore that?

Also, if you're so convinced Ace is my buddy you should be sheeping me. I am known to hard bus Day 1 sometimes.

I don't see how in hell town would make that request at all.

[Top12Gun]

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

Why no commentary about me providing proof that I make that request as town?
If it's such a big part of your case on me...wouldn't you want to explore that?

Also, if you're so convinced Ace is my buddy you should be sheeping me. I am known to hard bus Day 1 sometimes.

I don't see how in hell town would make that request at all.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow, I'm well aware of Ace's summiness, and am on the verge of voting him. The only thing stopping me is what I see as Thor's scumminess and the fact that hopefully everyone already sees how scummy Ace is, and would lynch him after Thor.

Nice to see TAOS is now scummy regardless of what Thor flips. Anyway, you just sidestepped what I said about you. If you see both of them as scummy, why are you treating them differently? The biggest thing I can come up with is personalities, TAOS is really unpredictable, but Thor is a pretty methodical player who wont do as many unexpected things. The simple fact is that you are avoiding getting into anything with TAOS, the volitile player. This is a defensive behavior of scum that is really common when they stop to think, I do it a whole lot as scum. Picking and choosing battles is important, and at times even if you think you can win, it creates too much uncertainty in the game which is a bad thing for scum. Staying away from TAOS-town would be the safest thing that scum could do, and when you give no distinction between TAOS and Thor (you seem to have them on nearly equal ground) but treat them so differently, it shows there is something more going on. Its probably that you are scum and afraid of TAOS-town, but I could really believe you are scared of TAOS-scumbuddy as well since he could just go for the counterbus. Either way, the unwillingness to take a risk and stick to the safe path when there is no reason to is why you are scum.

Also this

To everyone not named Thor or Rainbow: Is it just me, or does it seem like Rainbow just chainsaw-defensed me??

This again avoid responding to the points I made but instead is an attempt to discredit me by saying im defending Thor. Again scumplay 101, if you can counter an attack without a defense but instead try and make somepony look bad somehow else, do it. Its simpler and just as if not more effective.

Really, T12 wagon would be nice, a summarized response to a push by me is:

"Oh Thor and TAOS are both pretty scummy but Thor is a better player. Also you are scum for attacking me and disagreeing with my read."

Its a complete sidestep of my case while trying to attack anypony who attack him first.

[Devourer359]

Mix that with harping on a null tell that is pretty manufactered, I think he is more likely scum trying to stay out of stuff.

If he was scum trying to stay out of stuff, why would he target Thor instead of using a more passive strategy?

If he is scum, Thor is town and TAOS... I dunno... I could see scum but as I keep thinking about it how nervous of him T12 seems makes me think town.

Explain how Top's role would reveal the roles of others.

Because he's full of BS, and I'm town. I'm getting annoyed...

If you're town, you shouldn't have to constantly repeat that you're town.

But he IS distancing early from a sinking ship.

I don't see how this proves that he's bussing Ace, nor do I see how this proves any connection between them.

Is it just me, or does it seem like Rainbow just chainsaw-defensed me??

Currently, I don't see a chainsaw defense in his post.

Why no commentary about me providing proof that I make that request as town?

Please provide links to the posts/threads where the quotes originated.

I don't see how in hell town would make that request at all.

Whether or not it is reasonable for town to support a speed lynch, if Thor provides the links, his meta will completely prove it as a null tell.

Nice to see TAOS is now scummy regardless of what Thor flips.

Please clarify what you mean by this. I can see multiple ways to interpret the tone of this sentence.

The simple fact is that you are avoiding getting into anything with TAOS, the volitile player.

Being volatile doesn't mean that he is hard to pressure/argue against. If anything, it should be ridiculously easy to argue against his mostly bs arguments.

really believe you are scared of TAOS-scumbuddy as well since he could just go for the counterbus.

This is something that I can believe. With Ace's current trollish behavior and general idiocy, it wouldn't surprise me if Ace would announce his scumbuddies if they were connected.

[Thor665]

I don't see how in hell town would make that request at all.

You don't see why, as you make an attack on me, I wouldn't ask you to justify how that attack works considering it's obviously a fail tell as regards me.
At least, you couldn't see me asking that as...town.


What am I missing here?

@Rainbow - you didn't answer my question about Ace, whassup?

[Thor665]

Please provide links to the posts/threads where the quotes originated.

Why, are you calling it a scumtell you need to research now? The question is why, if it's the core of his case, he isn't asking this.

[Devourer359]

What am I missing here?

He's referring to your speed lynching requests and not your post's request. In other words, he's dodging the question.

Why, are you calling it a scumtell you need to research now? The question is why, if it's the core of his case, he isn't asking this.

No, I think I've already made it clear that I don't find your speed lynch advocation a scumtell. But I don't think he will be asking about your quotes anytime soon, or ever, for that matter. Either way, he has already provided the response to that question, and his response was to dodge that question while completely ignoring the proof before him. I'd rather see his response when absolute concrete proof is laid out before him than watch him show a scumtell over and over again that he has already emitted.

[Rainbowdash]

Nice to see TAOS is now scummy regardless of what Thor flips.

Please clarify what you mean by this. I can see multiple ways to interpret the tone of this sentence.

T12 is basically saying "Im going to vote TAOS no matter what Thor flips".

The simple fact is that you are avoiding getting into anything with TAOS, the volitile player.

Being volatile doesn't mean that he is hard to pressure/argue against. If anything, it should be ridiculously easy to argue against his mostly bs arguments.

Its far more risky since its just that much more difficult to figure out what is going to happen. As scum you have to take calculated risks, and if TAOS is town, going for him is like whacking a hornets nest not knowing if its full or not. This also sorta answers your first question, even if you are not in a great spot tangling with a predictable player is... predictable. Its easier to mitigate damage if you can predict it before it even happens. Thor is by far the better player, but I still would see TAOS as riskier to go after just due to the unpredictability factor. If TAOS is town, it could be one of those "VI is right for wrong reasons but still right" scenarios. There is just far more that could go wrong for a slot that would likely get itself killed. Continuing on that...

I thought that T12 and TAOS could be scum together, but as I keep looking at it I dont think they are all that likely. Sure if endgame was me-Thor-TAOS after a T12-scum flip I would probably be voting TAOS, but I sense more of apprehension that I think comes from scum not knowing what town will do. Pretty sure scum have daytalk in this setup so there should be less to fear there if they were together.

@Thor - I havent played with TAOS that I know of. Ive only played with NU and you but I dont think as me.

[Thor665]

I'd rather see his response when absolute concrete proof is laid out before him than watch him show a scumtell over and over again that he has already emitted.

There's already concrete proof. I literally already provided the quotes, all that's left is to go back and do the links.
You'd have to imagine me to be the worst scum ever born to be lying at that stage - so all you're requesting is for me to go do work in order to slightly smooth over a piece of already poured cement.
I refuse because I am lazy.

But, yeah, his responses are not making me happy after I literally just defended his internal logic, and I agree they are dodgy...I was just kind of trying to point that out to the masses in general.

@Rainbow - so, outside of 'lulz, volatile' what's your read on Ace if any?

[Devourer359]

You'd have to imagine me to be the worst scum ever born to be lying at that stage - so all you're requesting is for me to go do work in order to slightly smooth over a piece of already poured cement.

Not really. At least, the "you" pronoun doesn't apply here, as I literally just learned that I could search a user's posts. Either way, I have checked the quotes, and unsurprisingly, it's still a null tell. And with a search system for a user's posts, Top has even less of an excuse for ignoring your evidence, providing that he had an excuse in the first place. On another note, I also noticed that while you provided six quotes, Ace and you only provided five answers, which I find a bit strange.

[Thor665]

That's funny - probably I skipped the 5th one when I did mine as it would make sense when i got to the last one just to go for my last quote. Don't know which one he skipped. It's actually not really strange in any way, at least that I can tell.

[Fujiko]

Toroid has been prodded.

[theaceofspades]

The point I see here is this. I'm now about %95 sure that thor is scum. My next guess.... I don't really have one. I think that rainbow is prob town and devour.... not much going either way.

@the jester comments. It's called blowing smoke. Here's how I see it. I know for a fact what my role is. That's a given. But since I can't prove it to anyone I can't use it as a basis for an argument. (i.e. I'm town so somebody other than me is scum) But building off of my knowledge of my role I can make a guess that the only people who rise to my bait are the people who also know for a fact that I am town.

think about it. The scum know who they are. So they also know that everybody that isn't one of them is town. In a game with no NK a cautious scum team would go with an obvious lynch (me) rather than saving me for later as a "free kill" later in the game. Basically it comes down to this, I'm playing a Dances with Wolves sort of move. I'll draw some fire and reveal at least one scum (thor) If we lynch him cool beans he's gone and we can find the other scum. If we lynch me that's okay to. Because once I'm dead the next day will make it obvious that I was town and that the scum still walk among the living. Pointing the finger directly at thor.

It's a no lose game for me. I help the town whether I live or die. And thor either dies today or tomorrow.

The only way I can see this going askew is if I'm catastrophically wrong and thor is town and he dies today. Because that would make me look scummier than the underside of a toad

[Thor665]

"I acted scummy to lure scum into voting me, for only scum would vote an obvious looking scum on Page 2! Also though, if Thor gets lynched and flips town, I'd just like to point out that...heh, I may have been wrong. Sorry about that!"

[Thor665]

@Ace - while we're at it, why don't you address (in a non intentional trying to look scummy way) Top12Gun's case on me, and his choice to ignore the meta affecting it. What do you make of that? (again, post trying to sound like town)

[theaceofspades]

I refuse. Frankly for me I chose to go rabid on the first person to advocate a speed lynch. Just because I don't like speed lynching.

Topgun's case is more..... Direct. than mine. Mine is based on a gut feeling. Basically I think his case is stronger in that it is more convincing than mine. But hey. My point wasn't to convince but to gather information on you.

Nothing you've done is necessarily overt scum but your behavior is strange if you are town. I'm fairly certain that you are scum. Simply because of the way you post. and what you respond to. Not what you say. Because anybody can lie. To me that's the better way to play the game. Not to look for mistakes per say but to look for inconsistency in attitude. And your attitude is strange for a town person.

The point I was making with the flipping town comment is that it really doesn't matter if nobody believes in your scummyness. my death will point the way. You're not going to flip town. Because you are not town.

[theaceofspades]

and it's not a "sorry about that" comment. It's a "if I'm wrong I will die."

[Thor665]

Uh-huh...

[Devourer359]

But building off of my knowledge of my role I can make a guess that the only people who rise to my bait are the people who also know for a fact that I am town.

When your bait is to show off scumtells, why would town not rise to take it, seeing that its goal is to find scumtells? And if this bait is so efficient at weeding out the scum, why did pretty much everyone that has posted take it? You're still not explaining why town would not take your bait; like you say, we don't know your role.

Because once I'm dead the next day will make it obvious that I was town and that the scum still walk among the living. Pointing the finger directly at thor.

When a player accuses another player of being scummy, and the latter player flips as town, that in no way proves that the former player is scum.

Nothing you've done is necessarily overt scum but your behavior is strange if you are town. I'm fairly certain that you are scum. Simply because of the way you post. and what you respond to. Not what you say. Because anybody can lie. To me that's the better way to play the game. Not to look for mistakes per say but to look for inconsistency in attitude. And your attitude is strange for a town person.

Elaborate on this. How and why do you find his posting scummy? Where do you see inconsistency?

[Devourer359]

I probably don't need to say this, but that last quote was from Ace. I forgot to type that part in.

[Toroid]

Hi, my name is Toroid. I don't lie (to the best of my ability).
Before I started my newbie games I read a couple of Thors games to see how to play. If he is scum, only divine intervention would help the town.

Vote: theaceofspades

You rub me the wrong way, sir.

[Thor665]

Daaaaw, I always give people town reads for buddying and sheeping me.

[Toroid]

About time someone gives me a town read! , I was lynched the first time as vanilla town. Even though I bread crumbed my alignment in the first post and in the second game (also vanilla townie) I would have been lynched if the cop had logged in any later.
Anyways theace seemed a little flippant.