Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Zachrulez]

The thing about list mods assigning setups... if you believe mods are rigging the setup chosen for play, is there not reason to think that the mod might also be rigging the role assignment? If you think one is suspect then surely the other likely is too and the list mod should be doing both?

Just my thought on the matter.

Personally I don't think it's necessary for the list mod to do either. The numbers from F11 indicate if anything an insignificant amount of setup rigging. Regardless I wouldn't lose any sleep whichever way the site ultimately decided to go on it.

[zoraster]

No. That's not what we're saying at all. We're saying a number of newbie mods are not randomizing. To prevent that from happening, we'll randomize for everyone. Why? Because it solves the problem at ZERO cost to anyone but the listmod, and there the cost is very low. Just because you have your setup given to you doesn't mean that you are not trusted individually. The obsession with being "trusted" is not appropriate for a mod.

View it as a cost/benefit equation. On the benefit side to the listmod doing it is that we assure random setups and slightly less work for mods. On the cost side we have a very slight increase in work for the listmod. To me it is clear which prevails.

P-edit: as for the role to player thing, yeah. That's a problem too, but I think it's one that involves a lot more work for the listmod, so it increases the cost there. At least this way we get SETUPS that are randomized appropriately so that the legitimacy of the entire overall semi-open setup is not called into question.

[zoraster]

The numbers from F11 indicate if anything an insignificant amount of setup rigging.

Is singersigner assigning setups to mods? Because ugh those Doc/Townie percentages are off.

To the point that it's statistically significant.

[Zachrulez]

Well I mean theoretically assigning setups eliminates setup rigging, but in practice, what's to stop the mod from running the setup they want anyway? If the games are all going to be the same size, it's likely the list mod won't find out until it's too late.

Edit: I'm not really up to speed on the two of four distribution numbers, but wasn't that setup supposed to be assigned to mods?

[StrangerCoug]

The thing about list mods assigning setups... if you believe mods are rigging the setup chosen for play, is there not reason to think that the mod might also be rigging the role assignment? If you think one is suspect then surely the other likely is too and the list mod should be doing both?

Just my thought on the matter.

This is a good point. If we're having problems with rigged games, why should the list mod randomize

ONLY

the setup? The list mod might as well do both, and then the newbie mods would serve to make singersigner's life easier and not have to watch over tons of games herself.

For those who don't get the joke: I'm against this, too, being more overkill than what has been suggested. This is only to prove a point.

[RichardGHP]

The thing about list mods assigning setups... if you believe mods are rigging the setup chosen for play, is there not reason to think that the mod might also be rigging the role assignment?

Yes, there is reason to think that, but that's a different issue. We can very easily enforce the one we're talking about (and do so without coming off as fascist). It's like I said, I agree with StrangerCoug in principle, but disagree with him in practice.

If we are really that divided, why can't we just do a trial run and see what happens?

[zoraster]

Well I mean theoretically assigning setups eliminates setup rigging, but in practice, what's to stop the mod from running the setup they want anyway? If the games are all going to be the same size, it's likely the list mod won't find out until it's too late.

Edit: I'm not really up to speed on the two of four distribution numbers, but wasn't that setup supposed to be assigned to mods?

Yeah, the listmod may not find out, but the penalty is there. If you're caught, you'll be in some form of trouble. That should be enough to stop it.

The thing about list mods assigning setups... if you believe mods are rigging the setup chosen for play, is there not reason to think that the mod might also be rigging the role assignment? If you think one is suspect then surely the other likely is too and the list mod should be doing both?

Just my thought on the matter.

This is a good point. If we're having problems with rigged games, why should the list mod randomize

ONLY

the setup? The list mod might as well do both, and then the newbie mods would serve to make singersigner's life easier and not have to watch over tons of games herself.

For those who don't get the joke: I'm against this, too, being more overkill than what has been suggested. This is only to prove a point.

Well, if it were really easy for the listmod, I'd have no problem with it. It is not a particularly extreme thing to do. But I think the increase in work for the listmod would make it not worth the effort.

[Zachrulez]

The thing about list mods assigning setups... if you believe mods are rigging the setup chosen for play, is there not reason to think that the mod might also be rigging the role assignment?

Yes, there is reason to think that, but that's a different issue. We can very easily enforce the one we're talking about (and do so without coming off as fascist). It's like I said, I agree with StrangerCoug in principle, but disagree with him in practice.

If we are really that divided, why can't we just do a trial run and see what happens?

I tend to find one more important than the other. (Hint: Not the one we're actually talking about doing something about.)

Edit: On list mod role assignment. It actually takes very little time to randomize roles for a playerlist. All the list mod would have to do is to do this and then it would be the mod's responsibility to assign the role pms and all that. The practical problem with this one is enforcement, but if records of what the assignments are supposed to be are kept, it's very easy to audit and punish mods who deviate from it.

[DeasVail]

I would be happy with the set-up being assigned by the list mod. I would much prefer this over screenshotting etc. because that just seems like a real hassle to go to if you know you are properly randomising the setup.

Also, regarding the setup, I remember as a Newbie liking the variation that came with the 2of4 setup. However, I think that something like CES's 2of3 is a better version because I agree with others that the difference between doc/VT and JK or doc/Cop in 2of4 is probably too large. I do feel that there could perhaps be something better though.

[singersigner]

Heeeeey.

I've been meaning to follow up with what we had discussed last spring/summer, but after August, I haven't really been able to get around to anything I said I was going to do. Now that we've finally moved and recovering from everything that happened, my plans to continue with the changes is put back in motion...as soon as we have a consistent internet connection. >_>

I'll have to come back to this thread and give my input when I have more time, but I'm willing to do what was discussed over the summer, or any other improvements that are suggested and generally supported.

<3

[syndromeofadown]

As long as you can trust

most

mods to randomize, I don't see a problem. There might be a statistical preference of one setup over another just due to some mods cherry picking their favorite setups, but it's not going to be enough to cause any players in any game to somehow

guess

the setup. And that's pretty much the point of random semi-open newbies anyway. You're trying to fix a problem that's not really a problem.

[Alduskkel]

Not related to any of the above discussion, but what was wrong with the old F11 setup, again? I liked that setup.

[zoraster]

The difference between Cop+Doc vs. RB and mountainous vs. RB is really bad.

[mastin2]

The difference between Cop+Doc vs. RB and mountainous vs. RB is really bad.

Not "really bad", actually. It was statistically significant, showing a clear lean towards one side great enough to be significant, but it was not

that

significant. (Basically, it was important and significant, but not seriously so.)

It's actually not all too different from the stats we have on the current setup combos, really. (Though if it means anything: the flawed setup of F11 was more fun for me to play than the flawed setup of 2of4 is to play.)

[zoraster]

Yeah... but that doesn't exactly speak volumes for the current setup.

[Magister Ludi]

Are there any particular roles people really want in newbies? Seems like cop and roleblockers are in every iteration

[Vi]

@Flay and 50%: It IS possible to have a game that is balanced at something other than 50%.
Plus high-EV setups I can think of offhand rely on role silliness to screw over the scum. (e.g. Pie E7 - best case is you get counterclaimed IIRC)

If we're

THAT

concerned about whether or not assignments are random, have singersigner

[...]

...assign the setups.

I understand how horrible it feels to have someone say YOU WILL RUN THIS AND YOU WILL RUN IT THE WAY I TELL YOU TO RUN IT. And frankly

that's why I stopped running Newbie games

(under VRK). Etc.

[Timeater]

You should consider adding some epicmafia setups, no joke.

Some have been played thousands of times and retain a perfectly balanced 50% ratio. Also some of them encourage direct CCing, which is a very good thing and something thats sorely lacking in the MS meta.

[Elscouta]

Well, kind of the point of newbies is to familiarize the newcomers with MS usage. Using epicmafia setups doesn't seem a very good idea to achieve this.

[Timeater]

Mafia is mafia. The setups are good. Maybe I'm saying you're teaching MS noobies the wrong things?

[Mr. Flay]

We've gathered enough data over the years to conclude that cops are definitely not overpowered.

Agreed. Even Cop+Doc is not overpowered when the PRs don't KNOW it's there.

I can definitely see where StrangerCoug is coming from. In

principle

, I am against List Mod-assigned setups for the same reason - we are providing a public service by modding and we should be able to expect a degree of trust from the community, players and officials alike.

However, I suspect that there is more non-random generation going on than we would like to believe. Whereas a mod has a motivation to choose their favourite setup, the List Mod has no such motivation. So in

practice

, I support us being given the setup by the List Mod.

Ding ding! We have a winner!

If it were remotely possible to prove who was not-randomizing (as opposed to proving you ARE randomizing via the ludicrous amount of effort of videotaping yourself), I'd be for it. But proving a negative example in a forest of games is not feasible. This is literally just shifting one tiny bit of effort from one person to another, for a net gain of unbiased game distribution. Win/win/win.

---

Timeater, do you have some setups in mind? If they're good they're good, but some are only good in the context of a certain sitemeta.

[zoraster]

I actually agree with timeater, though obviously they should use MS terminology and focus on some of the less weird roles

[Quilford]

Unfortunately, the nature of play on EM means that setups like the original newbie setup (2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 3 VTs) are balanced. (It has a 50% Town / 49% Mafia win rate.)

[Timeater]

I like these. Due to the nature of some EM roles I think you'd have to make special rules. Oracle is a pretty common role in EM/Competitive EM and its basically unheard of on MS. I think its balanced. Moreso than a role like treestump

Voltron Doesn't Like It:
http://www.epicmafia.com/setup/58204

Overturn 2 Riddler:
http://www.epicmafia.com/setup/428263

Great and Innovative:
http://www.epicmafia.com/setup/563501

Cry N Spy:
http://www.epicmafia.com/setup/471195

[RichardGHP]

You would have to change any setups that have a role like guiser, but I wouldn't be against seeing some EM setups here.