Mini 1413 - The Mind Reader Mafia - Game Over

[mastin2]

Hey, GreyICE? Who's scum and why?

/reading

[mastin2]

You haven't played with me in these last few years, have ya, Junpei?

I don't wall. I spam.

With the QT I have, I spampost less.

I keep my posts under one screenwidth, typically much shorter nowadays. Longer ones get revised in the QT. (GreyICE, is Junpei scum?)

[mastin2]

Are all questions going to be at grey?

Until I have reason to direct them to other people, yes.

[mastin2]

Unvote, VOTE: Penguin.

Eh, who knows, when I finish reading maybe my opinion on Mal will change, but from what I've read so far, Mal's null-leaning-town for me.

Oh, and by the way, most of these wagons you've got suck.
Loran's my second-strongest townread and is the main wagon, and Adam's my strongest townread yet he's one of the main alternative wagons.

Penguin and LS are both scum, by the way.

[mastin2]

This is why I should actually read more before posting.

Scratch what I said before, 'bout Mal being null-leaning-town. It's on the opposite side, 'specially since Mal and Penguin look like scumbuddies. (As does LS.)
Soyeah, not even close to finished reading, but I've already got a Penguin-LS-Mal scumteam in mind; I'll keep you informed if anything changes.

[mastin2]

Forgot to add...am on page three, and the Penguin-LS-Mal scumteam is listed in order of strength for the scumread, strongest to weakest.

[mastin2]

Dang it, I didn't want to post so much, but this is important.

Unvote, VOTE: Guile.

It's Penguin-Guile-Mal.

[mastin2]

Are all questions going to be at grey?

Until I have reason to direct them to other people, yes.

What's your reason to direct them to grey then?

'Cause, no offense to the rest of you, GreyICE is put bluntly the best scumhunter in this game.

[mastin2]

If it's Peng, Guile - Mal.. Why are you voting the second rather than the first?.. (Common sense is probably because Guile has 2 votes on him and you are making it 3, but still)

Don't ask questions you already know the answer to.

Of course it's cause Guile already has votes. One of them being GreyICE. Combine bad posting from guile, and relatively-decent (still not good, though) posting from LS, and in the first six pages, Guile looks like a mighty fine lynch to me.

[mastin2]

mastin2, you're on page three and you think GreyICE is the best scumhunter in the game? I can only assume you've read more recent pages of the game as well then, as he doesn't have his first post until page six.

I've played with GreyICE before.

He doesn't have 100% accuracy, but he's

dang

-good with his scumhunting in my experience. Hence, why I asked him who was scum, and part of the reason I'm voting with him.

Oh, and I'm through the first nine pages, fyi. Still doesn't change anything of my reads.

Okay, I suppose it has; GreyICE has moved to be solidly town, and LS switched sides from scum-null to town-null.

[mastin2]

So through 14, and I owe you guys an update--Penguin's been bumped down to null-scum. And his counterpart, Junpei, similarly has been knocked down (from higher town) down to null-town.

[mastin2]

Pretty much caught up.

Thinking that one of Mal and Penguin is bussing, but I actually believe the other could be town.

And for the record, think Mal's scum.

Not *quite* sure who the third would be. Might be City, who's a whole bundle-load of null. Could still be LS, though I doubt that.
Junpei moves back into town thanks to GreyICE's points about him.

[mastin2]

But I

honestly

skipped most of what he wrote

When someone says he's honest he's probably lying scum.

Honestly, that's not a bad reason.

[mastin2]

@Mala, Those players are? Everyone's posted in the last day [except] grey.

And also Adam.

[mastin2]

A notification of day opening would have been nice.

Vote: Malakittens.

[mastin2]

Combo of factors.

Interactions have allowed me to hunt via POE for the last two, pretty much narrowing it down to 5 (or less) people.
Of them, the connection so far which is the strongest is Mal-City to guile.
Ignoring interactions, you two are also still my number one and two scumreads, thanks to the (extreme lack of) content.
...And, when content is present, it being anti-Adam or anti-Loran.

Y'know. The same exact things I nailed guile for.

[mastin2]

@Mastin: except I'm town and guille is scum.

Okay. So assuming you're town. Who's scum? What's your read on me?

[mastin2]

Would you be willing to swap to city without a ton of argument on it?

Ambivalent. (So, I guess: no. )

On the one hand, yes. City's my #2 scumread, and it's not far behind Mal at all.

On the other hand...speedwagon on City, with most of the players supporting it not being on my cleared list, with their secondary suspects other than City being among my top townreads. (Seriously, anyone saying Adam and/or Loran are scummy/scum pretty much automatically gets an FoS. )

Actually, make that definitely not. For City to be scum, Mal wouldn't be. (Double-bussing? Suicide.) And my Mal scumread IS stronger.

[mastin2]

Probably not going to be posting much here in the next day or two (or three) thanks to being preoccupied elsewhere. Will hopefully still get a chance to use my QT, though.

I find it very interesting that Malakittens managed to go from a tentative town read on me for overlapping on a reason to find guille2015 scummy (and seeming to have no objection to my L-1 vote) to opening the day finding me scummy, if I'm interpreting her posting correctly.

Define "interesting".

You go to great lengths to describe why it's interesting, but I want you to describe what, to you, that word means.

[mastin2]

Nah, Mastin doesn't bus two scum buddies in a row.

Not anymore, anyway.
I definitely used to.


/is pretty busy.

For the record, it really looks like GreyICE is hammering Mala, and his points seem to hold a lot more water than Mal's defenses do. I also need to revisit my townread on Mehdi, because Loran raises a good point about the potential defense combo they're showing.

[mastin2]

Jal's like Mastin.

Do explain further. How is Jal like me, and what, exactly, do you mean by me, anyway?


(Blehg. Should really be getting more into the game, but right now, I'm not. I'm massively skimming this stuff.

Speaking of which...

Mod: V/LA over the weekend.

Pretty positive that I'm going to be extremely busy with stuff.)

[mastin2]

Okay. I'm sold.

VOTE: LastSurvivor.

Skimming as I may be, LS's posts have been just bad, Loran's posts have been incredibly good, and CE's defense of LS only makes him look worse.

[mastin2]

You'll have to elaborate. On like, all of this.

Highly reactionary and survivalistic (ha!) play, combined with making points overall which seem rather weak. You seem to more be dismantling things, showing why a person is wrong, rather than showing why you with your suspects would be right.

The opposite's true for Loran. He doesn't give a damn what people think of him, is extremely proactive, is hammering in point after point which resonate with me, and is doing his damnedest to convince us that HE is right.


Granted, this is from highly skimming, but it looks REALLY good from what I've been seeing.

[mastin2]

CE's defense of LS only makes him look worse.

Explain this to me (assuming him refers to LS).

Coulda sworn I saw it earlier when skimming, but when reading things again, I couldn't find it. Soyeah, mistake on my end. (It's what I get for skimming. )

mastin2, what points from Loranthaceae are resonating with you? I have him as town, but really more in spite of his whacky postings rather than because of them.

Pretty much all of them? It'd be easier to say which ones I don't resonate with rather than the ones which I do.

Loran's reasoning might not be the most logical, but it is among the most solid. I can follow his train of thought clearly and precisely, whereas with LS...his train of thought seems slightly broken and jarred.

[mastin2]

OK, mastin2, then I'll take knowing which ones you don't resonate with when it comes to Loranthaceae.

And you believe that town players will always have clear lines of thought, given that they're working from less information than scum? (as per your scum-take on LastSurvivor)

Alright, next post, later today. (Running short on time atm.)

Butyeah. Town players always have a train of thought which you can follow. You can see what causes their transitions in thoughts. How their reads evolve, or what causes the sudden changes in 'em. You don't need to be the mindreader to be able to read minds. It's one of the fundamental skills in scumhunting, in fact--to see how a player's thoughts change, and if the transition between them makes sense.

Basically, it's the whole deal of natural vs. artificial. Loran's posts have a highly stream-of-consciousness style, and it's incredibly easy to see where he's coming from, what makes him think that, and why he concluded what he did.

LS's posts have a highly structured feel to them, broken, jarred, incredibly hard to understand where he's coming from, with little ways of seeing into his process--his explanation for his conclusions feels more like an excuse, like he needs to justify them, rather than with town, where he has them, shows them, and that's it.

If that makes sense.

[mastin2]

For reference, post 589 is where this starts. Assume anything not quoted that relates to LS is something I agree with, and/or at least understand.

@Ls because you defended lurking (the kind where you don't post much) in this particular setup early in day1. Because you lurked early in day 1. Because although you were lurking you found the time to give your opinion on the penguin_confirmation issue, just like guille.
It nearly made me tear my face off after the facepalm. You are the most trollish guy I've ever encountered, and you're good at it.. or you're a dumbass.
If you're town .. You suck! and it's no fun whatsoever to play with you regardless of alignment.

(I'll say this about CE.. lurking was bad but the fact that she's consistently lurking with the same defensive but 'i don't give a fuck' aura makes her look genuine now that she has 12 posts and all of the are the same.)

Here's some stuff. The bit about lurking I'm not too sure I agree with. I find myself often not posting whenever I simply don't have anything to add and can't think of anything to post which would be constructive in any way. Especially considering there's a quicktopic, I could still do stuff.

The bit about lurking is a little suspicious (if you consider LS's early posts active lurking--which I do), but it's backed up by the above, if LS legitimately saw no problem with it. It'd certainly not be a towntell, but I have doubts that in this case it'd be a scumtell.

The bit about LS sucking also feels a little out of place, thanks to it giving a potential excuse for Loran to defend his LS vote after a hypothetical LS-town flip, via him saying, "well, it's not MY fault LS was so bad...!" or something like that.

(Also, I'm not sure I agree with his viewpoint on CE, though I do see where he's coming from.)

probably because you like to annoy people who vote you instead of proving you are town to them.

Game started: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:20 pm and by Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:00 am you managed to come up with 1 1/2 post (first one doesn't count, I wouldn't count the second one as a whole post either) What have you got to say for yourself.. I have posted less than 24 hours bla bla bla I'm sick of it.

Epilogue: 'Also, FYI, personal attacks aren't cool.'
Oh poor little puppy .. Did I call your questions stupid .. did I express my opinion, say that I wouldn't want to play with you again for doing the annoying things you do (calling me Vi among other things despite this being one of my best game ever) -> pull yourself together.

Here's some more. Same bit about attacking a characteristic of LS the person rather than LS the player, via the bit about annoying those voting. This is also the last bit I have in the quote up there.

The game's start date and posting habits should be obvious enough, as that's largely playstyle-dependent.

Sometimes as town you don't have to make sense so you can surprise scum. Surprise!

Nothing wrong with making no sense (if there was, I'd be lynched every single game, since I am an incredibly incoherent player ), and nothing wrong with surprising scum (you want to catch 'em off-guard), but making no sense intentionally in order to catch scum off-guard isn't something I endorse.

That said, this game being mindreader mafia (where you have a QT that you can announce said moves in), it's probably the game where this strategy would be at its absolute most effective.

I think I've cracked it, scum is guille, Lastsurvivor, Adam.

Adam hops on with an extremely scummy timetraveller scum vote-post on me, because he thinks I'm an even easier target now.
Then I start to fuck shit up and LS and Adam are like oooh oh, He's going to get to guille soon and people will notice how fucking scummy he is.
Adam has become a safe bussing target because there was pressure on him and it settled, so he's clear for now => Adam goes into lurking mode.

I everything but guarantee there were 2 scums on my day 1 wagon

Day2 and LS doesn't buss Adam anymore because he can't afford to: Adam didn't vote for guille, he even voted for the guy that guille tunneled so they both decided that it's time for Adam to replace out, because LS doesn't know how he can explain not voting Adam other than he wants let the new guy who replaced in to get settled in first.
If this is true it's a crap way to bend the rules I never want to play with any of you ever again.

Thiiiiiis bit I have an issue with. For starters, it rekindles the Adam-Loran flame which is horrendously townVtown to the point of pain.
LS attacking Adam--rather than suggesting a bus--says to me that no more than one of them is scum. (Potentially neither, though definitely not Adam.) This applies to the bit about bussing as well.

Also, arbitrary numbers on wagons = good way to do VCA wrong.

Suggesting strategic-replacement is also pretty bad, and there's that same "it's not MY fault" potential bit, via 'never want to play with any of you again'.

...Buuuuuuuut, as you can tell by the wording of my above, this is an incredible reach on my part that is pretty much just nitpicking the details, when (other than the Adam-is-scum bit) I mostly agree with not only his conclusion, but also his reasoning. ESPECIALLY considering his next post.

Spoiler: the next post (which I completely agree with) for reference

Reaction tested, failed. I threw you in a magical anti-scum quicksand puddle and I gave you one straw to cling on to - that i'm insane. Town would've said fuck your straw I can fly out of this because I'm town and only scum sink so keep it. But you are scum because you grasp that straw like it's the snooze button on the alarm, like a crack-whore longing for a fix.

You're twisting my words in your own little distorted world view in order to see it that way.

Like, say, a quote? Point to something I've said and explain, without sounding

like a lunatic

, why I'm defending lurking.

I don't even have to look for the quote, I know exactly what you said: "Because you know, some people have this thing called life"
*yeah far from being cool, sounded rather silly to me, but must've sounded really cool to you when you wrote it, you suck.

PS:

You're ridiculous. If you need to form a scum team by accusing them of breaking rules then, guess what - you're wrong. There's no way any single mod would condone this.

I love how you're saying I'm wrong because the mod wouldn't condone it and not because you're not scum. But for the sake of argument how is he to know? I reckon you ain't dumb enough to write it in your scum QT like that.

Shit came raining down on you and there was a way to dodge it, by being sore loosers. He just acted in his and your best interest and stopped posting.

Time will tell, no need to bogart it, but the way you choose to defend yourself says a lot. Why don't you just let me know why you're not voting for Adam .. because if there is a case .. that's the crux of it. Your defence of lurking was just the warm-up. Yeah it's how town scumhunts.. one thing leads to another and boom, gotcha! Asking stupid questions is not so you did it here and in Buckshot. q.e.d.

If you want to defend yourself you go take a break from your cool off-Pc life and quote me some towngames of yours where you ask stupid questions like the ones I quoted in the spoiler of post #646. This is not a reaction test. If you can do it.. that'll prove to me you really want me to know that you are town, something you didn't bother with yet. Drop the antagonism, get to work, show me or be lynched.

Should be noted, the "you suck" and "have a life" and a slight tinfoil theory bits are a little bit on the bad side, but I've pretty much covered all of this before, in the above.

EBWOP:
You'll have to promise me to try harder than that because that's just

Spoiler: horrible

A MoTHErFuckiNG 12 pound pile of SSSHIIiiiiTTT

in a

MoTHerFuckiNG

100 POUND BAG

,

yo

meaning the amount of shit is not that big compared to the bag you were supposed to fill with reasons why you compare obvscum adam with obvtown yours truly, but it's still shit and it stinks

The ultimate conclusion I agree with (that it's BS), but of course, Loran's vulgarity is a bit excessive.

@Jal remaining scum are LS and Adam, can I interest you in reevaluating your read and meta-read on LS?

I might make it beautiful like the real case one Adam but I still have exams so maybe not.

@Mehdi and Mala I propose to you the ISO of guille, Adam, LS ... should be a fun read.

Same bit here, 'bout Adam. Including Adam as scum is really one of the achilles' heels in his LS case (the other main one being things which can be seen as attacking the person, not the player), because Adam is definitely town and it weakens his credibility when he's half-wrong. If it weren't for that, his LS case would be incredibly solid.

[mastin2]

A-hem.

mastin2, what points from Loranthaceae are resonating with you? I have him as town, but really more in spite of his whacky postings rather than because of them.

Pretty much all of them? It'd be easier to say which ones I don't resonate with rather than the ones which I do.

...Buuuuuuuut, as you can tell by the wording of my above,

this is an incredible reach on my part

that is pretty much just nitpicking the details, when (other than the Adam-is-scum bit)

I mostly agree

with not only his conclusion, but also his reasoning. ESPECIALLY considering his next post.
[Snip]
Including Adam as scum is really one of the achilles' heels in his LS case (the other main one being things which can be seen as attacking the person, not the player), because Adam is definitely town and it weakens his credibility when he's half-wrong.

If it weren't for that, his LS case

would be incredibly solid.

Bolded for emphasis.

I was asked to quote the elements of Loran's posts I didn't resonate with.
I quoted the elements of Loran's posts I didn't resonate with.
If you read the posts from 589 onward, you'll see that I cut out a good 75-90% of what Loran said with regards to LS. Do you know what that means?
I agree with 75-90% of what Loran says.

Saying that I was stretching, saying that I'm taking both sides of the debate, is a flat-out falsehood, when I EXPLICITLY SAY that I'm presenting JUST the elements I disagreed with, elements I WAS ASKED to present.

Loran is my strongest townread right now, stronger even than my Adam townread. (Adam's my #2 townread at the moment.) So much as implying otherwise when I explicitly have stated this MULTIPLE TIMES is scummy-as-hell.

Loran's case against LS isn't perfect. No case against a player is, and I don't agree with ALL of Loran's points ('cause, y'know, I'm actually thinking for myself). But Loran's case against LS is INCREDIBLY good overall, and I agree with ALMOST everything he says. So stop this bullshit now.

[mastin2]

Mastin, what do you think about my response to Loran's 678 (#687)

It was weak. Like, seriously weak.

The strongest point you had in there was attacking the weakest points in Loran's case, the weak points I highlighted on request in my above post.

[mastin2]

But tell me why Adam is town because I don't see it. And who's the third scum? Who else is town and why?

I don't really remember any reasons for Adam being town off the top of my head, but I have a bundle-load. If memory serves, there's genuine scumhunting, bringing up good points, and a general aura of towniness.

The Guile wagon's first three members are town, and so are you, plus Adam.

These are the only townreads I am absolutely sure of.

POE leaves Mehdi, Mal, Penguin, Jal, City, and Junpei to be the scumbuddy.

I have a townlean on Penguin and Junpei. That leaves {Mehdi, Mal, Jal, City}. I forget what my read on Jal is. I seem to see a lot of Mehdi-Mal going on, but I'm not sure how to read it. I have a slight scumread on City, but I haven't looked into it.

Basically, I haven't done my research, yet. Far too many suspects, not nearly enough clears. When I get the time, I'll do what I can to finish my homework.

[mastin2]

Mastin, I don't like it when you make short posts. Makes me think you're scum.

I don't wall anymore.

Not intentionally, anyway.

I said as much when entering the game. (That, or I mentioned it in the QT. Definitely remember saying it SOMEWHERE. )

Walls are anti-town, I don't like being anti-town, so simple solution: don't wall.

And I typically only spampost when I've got lots of different things to address. When I actually stop slacking off, I might, though I'll probably use the QT for most of it.

[mastin2]

Didn't really understand 'em, Mehdi. Rephrase?

[mastin2]

You had CE as a primary scum read before, but resisted with mala being the bigger scum read and they're not a likely pair. The mala scum read seems to have decreased. What happened to CE then?

The second is referring to how you don't know how to read the Mehdi-Mala connection. I'm saying do posts 710 and 711 not help on that?

Coulda sworn I said somewhere that CE was nullish-scum. I haven't done my homework, yet. Haven't looked at (lack of) content, haven't put the effort into getting into their minds (no pun intended ) and trying to see if their posts are town-motivated or scum-motivated, but most of all, I haven't done the research to see which connections are possible, probable, improbable, or flat-out impossible.

Which also answers your second question.
I don't really remember 710 or 711. I don't really remember the exact nature of Mehdi-Mala. I just remember that there was a connection, and that it was something I wanted to look into some more.

I'll do that overnight, since if Penguin's right about the deadline, I'll have the weekend off.

Mod:

Declaring V/LA over the weekend. Not because I have too much to do--rather the opposite. I've been stressed out for the last few weeks. Seriously, seriously stressed out, to the point where I have been having a lot of issues in my daily life. (Not sleeping among 'em.) Today and Tomorrow are going to be the first time in almost a full month that I won't have that stress. I want to relax.

Playing mafia games is not my idea of relaxation.

I know, of reasons to take V/LA, this is probably among the stupidest and least-justified you've ever heard, but consider it me taking a vacation. I need a brief break, not just from real-life stuff but also from mafia-stuff.

[mastin2]

Yo. Im town. And not at all caught up. That one guy is obvtown. Loran. But iirc he read Adam as scum and that is bollocks. So is the junpei slot scum? Lets lynch it.

Awesome.

You're dead-on with Loran, AP. Junpei's a bit meh; I'm lookin' into him, but he's not my top priority; that'd be LS.
Also not sure on Mehdi or Jal.

Butyeah, looks like we're at least partially in synch. We're a bit close to deadline, though, soyeah, work fast. You've only got me for a couple hours max.

[mastin2]

Just to confirm,

Jal (you are so obviously scum, girl. Stick to getting towncards because your town play is actually quite exemplary)
Mehdi2277 (you are so obviously scum, bro. Stick to getting towncards because your town play is actually quite exemplary)

"objectively bad play" is your reasoning, correct?

If so, can you show it? (Also do the below to augment.)
If not, can you show me why?

I mean, I can vote 'em, but they're to me what LS apparently is to you.

Speaking of which, if you can't get Mehdi/Jal in time, how willing are you to vote LS?

[mastin2]

If we do,

VOTE: Lastsurvivor

and hope I am wrong on my current read.

^Okay. Need to seriously, seriously look at a Mehdi-Jal scumteam for BS like this.

[mastin2]

So stop being bad by putting suspicion on me or try and at least look confident in your Lastsurvivor vote if you're scum.

Thing is, it was your vote which helps

destroy

my confidence in an LS lynch.

Pre-Jal Vote, a good 90% Last-Scum.
Post-Jal Vote, 33%

at most

Last-Scum.

It aint bussing, not when they're already down a member.

AP has been hammering in good points, and the interactions between Mehdi-Jal look like that of scumbuddies.

Going to check things.

[mastin2]

LS 4 (

Loran

, mastin, Penguin, Loran, Jal)
Mehdi 1 (AP)

And my math places two weeks at being on today.

Dang.

Mod: Given that we need a replacement, can we have a time extension?

If the answer's yes, we can lynch Mehdi.

[mastin2]

look at 800. Why is he searching through other scum teams that don't include the person he's voting for? Especially when what caused it is someone voting who he was voting for.

Because I'm not an idiot, LS. Golden rule, reads to fit the evidence.

Jal's vote wrecked my confidence in your wagon. But things aren't black and white. It's not you're definitely scum, or you're definitely town. It's not that Jal's definitely scum or definitely town. It's all a matter of weighing the evidence, and considering the facts. When I voted, I was sure you were scum.
I wasn't sure that you were scum anymore, but I wasn't sure Mehdi was scum, I wasn't sure Jal was scum. I wasn't sure 'bout anything. Still am not.

"Why not unvote?" Weren't you listening? I wasn't sure you were scum, but I wasn't sure you were town, either. Given the deadline at the time, me moving could have caused a no-lynch.

If I had a townread on you? Yeah, sure, I'd risk the no-lynch. But I didn't. You were (and still are) null-leaning-scum. You dropped from sure-scum to possible-scum, but were still (and still are!) in the category for highly-likely-to-flip-scum. So, you had a significant chance to flip scum. There was a deadline to enforce. And even if you were town and flipped town...that wagon would give a ton of info, on the remaining scum. Hence, the lack of a switch.

That said, now that we have the time...

Unvote,
VOTE: Mehdi.

I am slightly more sure in my Mehdi scumread than I am in an LS scumread.

Basically, scummiest to nullest, it's
Mehdi
LS
Jal
City
Junpei.

Junpei at dead-null, City at ambivalent, Jal at sliiiiiiiiiiight scum, LS as scummish, and Mehdi as weakish scum.

I may or may not get around to doing the research needed to solidify my reads one way or the other, because right now, they need to be.

[mastin2]

You know...

Mehdi, LS, Jal, City, Junpei.

We might have a suspended deadline NOW, but when we get it back, it's probably not going to be gratuitously long. Unless the mod is going to be really generous and give us an extra week, it'll probably be 3-4 days tops.

That's enough time to get a panic-lynch in, but not a coordinated lynch.

So let's start talking.

Does anyone disagree that there are two scum in the above five names?
...Okay, there probably is. But does anyone disagree that there is at least one scum in the above five names?

Yeah, I thought not. We need to coordinate who we're willing to lynch, and why. If you have a townread on some of the above five, explain why.
If you have a scumread on some of the above five, explain why.


...Actually, here's a far simpler method. Do the above as a bonus, but the essential piece is this.

State your preferred lynch order--most to least--of those five.

Most

| Mehdi, LS, Jal, City, Junpei |

Least

[mastin2]

I can guarantee at least one scum in this group.

Yes, Nacho, but you've aimed for the wrong name.

I realize that AP is, well, AP, and that my ability to read him is pretty bad, but I'm a good 95% certain he's town. Adam was right up there with Loran among being my top townreads, and AP replacing him only solidified it. AP's sharing good thoughts, pushing good people, bringing good content to the game, and in general, he's being obvtown.

This isn't AP just being here. This isn't him being around, saying some stuff, and then randomly leaving. This is AP, strongly making his presence known, and making sure he's leaving an impact.

The scum you're looking for is Mehdi, not AP.


By the way, those who haven't answered my question probably should. (That includes you, Loran. You too, Nacho.)

[mastin2]

Also, good luck on the round dancing, Nacho. I'm a solid phase four dancer, and phase 5 in some rhythms, so I can probably give ya tips if you'd like.

[mastin2]

And coincidentally...

i am going to learn how to round dance (rumba, quickstep, waltz) so when i'm back i'm probably just going to sleep the day away

...These three are the same exact three I'm learning in right now.

I'm seriously seriously wondering if your teacher is tied to the PNWTSDF for this year.

[mastin2]

btw,

Mod: V/LA 'til Tuesday

thanks to the holiday.

Mastin do you honestly think listing the reads in order of their scummyness is something to be desired at this point, especially when you seem to want to limit the lynchspectrum?

For the sake of not no-lynching?

Yes.

The list has a purpose, too. Which will be revealed after everyone's given their preference.
It's not like I'm asking for a list of reads. I'm asking for people to give an approximation on how willing they are to lynch or how resistant they are to the lynch of those players.
And I

did

ask for those with lists to preferably also elaborate on each of the five.

Reconsidering putting Mal in the scum pile for that vote alone.
No, seriously, that's scummy-as-hell.

AP is town. Guaranteed. Every single vote for him is going to be progressively scummier.
So get off. AP's the

worst

possible lynch. Worse even than Loran, who is not far behind.

Soyeah. Go elsewhere. Anywhere else.

[mastin2]

State your preferred lynch order--most to least--of those five.

Most

| Mehdi, LS, Jal, City, Junpei |

Least

Change my mind--drop Jal out and put Mal in.

Most

| Mehdi/qwints, Malakittens, LS, Junpei/Nacho, City |

Least

Mal raised from not-on-the-list to #2 from the horribad AP vote alone. LS dropped from #2 to middle because he's on the Mehdi lynch. Nacho jumped from #5 to #4 for spearheading the AP lynch.

I'm dead-serious, the AP lynch is a mislynch and scum-driven. The Mehdi lynch is not a mislynch and I'm increasingly convinced it's town-driven.

[mastin2]

And with that, qwints has sealed himself as being scum.

AngryPidgeon: 4 (Nachomamma8, Loranthaceae, Malakittens, qwints)

I'd bet real money both scum are in here.

[mastin2]

Like, seriously. AP's the most blatant counterwagon attempt I've ever seen.
There was a wagon on Mehdi/qwints. It was gaining strength. At a good pace, too! Not too fast, not too slow; naturally flowing in.

...Then, BAM!
Nacho comes out of nowhere. Makes a case against AP which in part relies on Mehdi's slot being scum (like, seriously, Nacho. The case on Mehdi is MUCH stronger), and instantly (no, seriously, INSTANTLY) the wagon has formed.

[mastin2]

Speaking of which...

Quick skim. Just noticed there's votes on the Adam-slot. Sorry AP - I have reasons for your slot being scum. Even though your posts look decent - I can't just totally toss out anything that Adam did and write it off as nothing.

Vote: AngryP

Nononon Mala. That's cute but it's wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hspNaoxzNbs
Give me reaons for why you think Adam is scum and why your think AP continues Adam's scummyness by being scummy and why.

Loran, if this is what you believe,

why are you voting

with

Malakittens

?!?

[mastin2]

Do you think it's likely that both scum bussed guille?

It's certainly possible. They could have seen he was going down, and gotten on to earn some cheap towncred. Heck, considering the scum have daytalk, guile could have explicitly told them that he was going down and ASKED them to bus him.

(You guys talked too much in four days.
I've got other games to catch up on, so you'll have to wait for me to tackle this one for a few hours, sorry.)

[mastin2]

I got mastin to back me up.

/truth.

Nacho, you're not acting like I know you to be as town. I can't quite articulate my words, yet, but it's just that...you're not making sense. Your case against AP is weak, your push against AP is weaker than Mehdi, your whole case relies partially on Mehdi being scum (SO WHY THE HECK NOT LYNCH MEHDI?!?), and in general...well, this is the first time I've had you as a serious suspect without it being gut-fueled paranoia.

You're just...not being town. You're strongarming the lynch through, not defining it logically.

You're far from being a townread, but you're on the wrong side of null, buddy. And you're not doing a good job of telling me otherwise. Normally, when you come in, I see you as being town. But this game...you're not. Others are calling you town, but what you're saying just doesn't fit with what I remember of you being town.

[mastin2]

in the end, despite the paranoia, he will always trust me
and we will run train on scumbags

Had you attacked Mehdi, yes.
But you attacked AP.
Adam was right there, as my strongest townread. (Well, Loran did a good job of getting up there, too. But they were actively fighting for top-town.)
AP's play this game has only solidified that townread.
Everything about Adam was town, just as everything about AP was town.

Adam-Loran also looked RIDICULOUSLY town-town, and I just. don't. see. the. AP. case.

I see you shoving something down my throat. I see you raging about it. I see you bring stuff up, but it just isn't making sense to me.

[mastin2]

Also, might as well post this here, even though it's a bit late.

Spoiler: A few tips I can think of

-Posture is big. Like seriously. A bent back will ruin you. A straight back, and you have an edge in any rhythm.

-Flow. Know the rhythm. Have the music play, and make steps in time to it, preferably also in the way those steps are made.

-Apply other activities to Round Dancing. For instance, I'm a runner and I do Tae Kwon Do. Both help greatly with my Round Dancing, because they emphasize the same essential things. Posture, having a strong core (related to posture, as you need good abs to maintain good posture), rhythm, and even the way feet move.

-Related to flow...keep on moving. (Except when you're obviously supposed to pause.) As a more rookie dancer, you're likely going to break down once or twice. If you keep on moving, then you'll keep on dancing, making recovery easier.

-Pay attention to the music! Dances are often (in fact, almost always) written to work with the music, meaning that if something changes in the music (e.g. there's a pause, the pacing changes, the instruments are altered), there is going to be a change in the moves.

-Most dances have patterns. Intro, A, B, A, B, C, A/B, Ending, for instance, is a pretty common pattern. The intro and ending to a dance generally are closely tied together, as are any transition moves used between parts.
Note that not all dances have this, but most do.

-Don't anticipate, but DO plan. In higher-level dancing, this won't work as well, but for lower-phase dances, moves will almost always end in a certain position. Pay attention to where those moves end, so that if you've broken down and hear that cue, you can get into that position to recover.

-If the queuer (or however it's spelled ) gives you an ending position (e.g. semi, banjo, closed) and/or direction (wall, line, reverse-line, center), pay attention to that position! They're being nice and just gave you a way to recover, so use it and make sure you're facing that way when you finish your move.

-Dance on diagonals. This is either phase 3+ or 4+, but most dances on higher phases require it--but it's also helpful at lower phases. If you dance on the four directions and are wrong on a direction, you have to turn 90/180/270 degrees. If you're dancing on the diagonal and are wrong on a direction, there's rarely a time where the rotation you have to recover will be greater.

-Know what the move is, not where it ends. Okay, so you should know where moves typically end (see above advice), but you shouldn't rely on that because even at lower phases, there WILL be times that moves don't end the way they normally do. So try to memorize what makes up the specific moves. If you have a good teacher, they'll tell you what the name of the move is, what moves make up that move, and what steps/rotations they take when making the move--all have the same end result. (Basically, all upper-phase moves are just multiple lower-phase moves mashed up into one.)

-Rotations! Pay attention to hip/shoulder rotations; all moves which turn should use one or the other. Turning right? Shoulders. Turning left? Hips.

-When a move is demonstrated, you obviously need to pay attention...but it also helps to--if you can--do the move at the same time you are watching it. It gives you double the learning time, if you're watching it being done while doing it.

[mastin2]

(Also, knees--related to posture. Know when to bend them! They're bent more often than they're straight.
It's related to when you rise/fall on your feet.

As a final piece of advice...just as there are eight [not four] directions, there are effectively eight/six [not four/three] beats to time yourself to. One-and-two-three, one-two-and-three, one-two-three-and are all things you'd need in Waltz; similar in Quickstep and Rumba. Rises/falls typically are not on an actual beat, but on an 'and' count. Turns generally are as well, though not always.)

[mastin2]

(Oh, and a further piece of advice--make sure you're doing the same thing as your partner! Typically, the guys will be the lead, so having firm [but not tight!] arms to lead your partner will make sure you two are on the same page as to what you're doing.
Keep in mind that--even when you're moving backwards--you'll still be the lead, even if your partner is the one who drives the action.)

[mastin2]

(Further piece of advice--having a partner with a similar build to you helps. Round dancing with someone half your height and/or double your weight is a bit awkward. Having a partner who is similar in height and build to you will make you flow more easily. It's probably not something you have any control over, but if you do, keep it in mind.)

Back to our regular scheduled scumhunting...

OH FUCK MASTIN
gotta appeal to him, brb

This is exactly what I was talking about.

You-as-town I would have expected to IMMEDIATELY appeal to me. I would have expected you to target me, say bluntly why I'm an idiot for thinking Adam/AP are town, and convince me to go along with you. The fact that you went for others first INSTANTLY shot up my suspicion.

[mastin2]

Also, a bit from my QT that I don't think made it into my posts:
I would have expected Nacho-as-town to weigh the value of players.

Town-AP takes a while to get into rhythm, but once he has, he's a lethal scumhunter. Town-qwints is just...kinda...there. Not helping, not doing much. Qwints-scum via Mehdi has many associative tells, which AP-scum lacks. (First and foremost because he isn't scum. But also because AP has no set way of dealing with scumbuddies.)

So from a logical perspective...I just don't see why lynching AP over qwints is ever going to be a good plan.

[mastin2]

Also, Nacho--do you think that the scumteam, down a member come day two, would crossbus so heavily?

I do not. Say what you will about WIFOM. The risk-reward ratio just doesn't match up.
Reward? Best-case scenario, cruise to 3P lylo and hope nobody asks "Why is *survivor of the crossbuss* still alive?" (Hint: they always will.)
Risk? With 9 alive come tomorrow, they'd have to fight three mislynches just to GET to lylo. They'd have to get a fourth mislynch to actually win. It puts them in a disadvantageous position, ESPECIALLY with people who WILL ask that question, ESPECIALLY with someone calling it having been crossbussing.

There's no scenario where crossbussing (especially between those two) on day two isn't factional suicide.

And Mehdi/qwints is the scummier of the two by far.

[mastin2]

To sum up what I feel about Nacho's case on AP:

You're stating reasons, but it doesn't seem to match my golden rule. (Well, either of my golden rules, really. ) That is...you're saying stuff and using it as evidence...but it doesn't look like you're using evidence to form a read; you're using a read to show evidence. (All in a bunch of words, too.) And you're showing what looks to be arrogance. But said arrogance comes across as being fake, Nacho. Your posts are meant to show you're confident in your read, but I don't see it as being legitimate.

Not sure if that makes sense, but that's what I'm seeing.

[mastin2]

Goddammit, Loran.

[mastin2]

Hey, Nacho! Here's some additional tips for ya.

You need to have at least some familiarity with all standard rhythms--in addition to what you're doing, learning some 2-step (especially for quickstep), foxtrot (especially for waltz), cha-cha, and jive will help a bunch. Each rhythm has an aspect to it which is distinct, but all rhythms borrow quite heavily from each other in AT LEAST one dance. (There are also hybrid dances, where mid-way through they switch rhythms. For instance, there's a foxtrot-jive which is quite common, and one dance has THREE rhythms.) The moves' names might be slightly different between rhythms, but the moves themselves don't change much.

But that said, you do need to know more than other rhythms the core aspects of the rhythms you ARE dancing. I'd have to do research to tell you the exacts of each, but I can give you a tip for Rumba, being that it is an EXTREMELY intimate rhythm. Pretty much every single popular rumba dance (such as Carnival) has that very close and passionate aspect to it. You don't need to be intimate with your partner (I certainly am not), but you do need to at least go through the motions as if you were. Awkward as it may be, it's pretty essential for you to have that closeness, to have that intimate flair, to make it look good. If it helps, think of yourself as being an actor on a stage. You're not exactly performing a choreographed and well-coordinated show, but many of the same things apply as if you were.

But most of all...the thing you need in order to succeed at round dancing...is to VOTE: Qwints.

[mastin2]

In all seriousness, we need to be lynching between City Electric, Last Survivor and Junpei. City Electric's failure to have a vote down during what I now know to be a town-town deadline wagon contest makes me

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CityElectric

This is why qwints is scum.

That's backwards.

CE's failure to have a vote down during an alleged town-town fight would confirm CE as town. (At worst it'd be null if CE simply wasn't around.) Now if it were town-scum, sure, yeah, there'd be a case for CE-scum not voting their scumbuddy, but even then it'd still overall point to null.

[mastin2]

Happy scumday, OGML!

Let's give him a scumday present and quicklynch qwints.

[mastin2]

I realize I should be posting in here, but honestly, I don't have much to say here which hasn't already be said. To be frank, I don't think we're going to get any additional info from prolonging the day. I mean, yeah, gives me some extra time to work with the VCA that I wanted to begin but was too busy to, and it gives UN time to catch up, but...I just don't see anything truly productive coming about from the game continuing without first getting a qwints flip.

[mastin2]

@Mastin we got loads of info you could dive into .. but you don't. Why?

Combination of apathy and laziness.

I promised to do some VCA, but I haven't even begun it. As I said, apathy. I've got no passion atm for this game. I honestly, legitimately, feel as if we've stalled. I've tried thinking of ways to spark up useful activity, but...I got nuthin'. I can't think of any questions to ask players, I can't think of any place in the game to focus my attention, I can't think of any VCs to focus on because quite frankly the mod gives them far too sporadically to be of use. (Hence why I want to do manual VCs to A.) Basically...I'm stuck. :/

[mastin2]

also mastin how are you still taking so long?

You'd be surprised.

As pretty much the king of VCA, I have a pretty obsessive method of going about it.
Penguin's method simply won't do for me.

I'm doing it manually, because I'm doing it right.

Proper VCA works on multiple levels, and I've refined it to an art.

An art which happens to be incredibly time-consuming, as the last hour has shown.
I'm 1/4th of the way done, though the other 3/4ths can be done simultaneously. (The mind-reader knows I've stopped slacking off, at the least. )


VCA the way *I* do it gives a much, MUCH better grasp on context. It shows the interactions, but also gives me the circumstances of the vote, so I can easily check it out when I post.

To be honest, I've never actually utilized this meticulous method to its entirety before. I've done plenty of half-assed VCA, but I've never really bothered with doing the perfect VCA.
'Til now, anyway.

Don't worry. It's not too hard for me to do, but it's not as simple as I thought it'd be and as people assume it'd be.

[mastin2]

I would like to hear mastin2's VCA in particular before we end the day phase

Will work on it after running a few errands across the site. (Busy busy. I'm actually over my self-inflicted game limit thanks to a few people calling in favors. )

[mastin2]

DANG IT, WHY THE HECK IS THE SITE SO ACTIVE ON FRIDAYS?!?
...And why the heck did I let myself get spread out across almost every single forum making it so that I have to keep track of them all? >_<
/not consciously procrastinating, but not getting the VCA done.

[mastin2]

As a rule, I refuse to use those fancy forum features.

I browse manually.

On smaller sites, this is actually faster and more efficient/reliable than bookmark thingies. (I don't even know how to use 'em. The only bookmarks I use are browser bookmarks, and given the number of games I've been in and continue to be in, as a rule, I refuse to use those. ) Heck, on lower-posting days for MS.net, it also works.

But not today, apparently.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: ignore this

NORMAL:

Page Two

:

(Bottom of 1, really, but same thing)
Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Junpei - 2 (Angry Pidgeon slot, Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Qwints (slot) - 1 (Loran)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Three

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Junpei - 2 (Angry Pidgeon slot, Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Four

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Junpei - 2 (Angry Pidgeon slot, Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

Page Five

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Junpei - 1 (Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Qwints (slot) - 1 (Angry Pidgeon slot)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

GHOST:

Page Two

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
CityElectric - 0 (

Angry Pidgeon

slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Loran - 0 (

Penguin

)
Qwints (slot) - 1 (Loran)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Three

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Qwints (slot) - 0 (

Loran

)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Four

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 0 (

LastSurvivor

)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

Page Five

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

I made a mistake in here, somewhere, and I need to post it for me to figure out what it is. (BBCode makes it better to post in here rather than my QT.) You don't need to tell me what the mistake is, since I'll probably see it 30 seconds after posting, butyeah, needs posting all the same.

[mastin2]

Crud.

Did some mental math.
Deadlines are two weeks from days' start.

Day started February 24th. If my math is correct, it's been 12 days.
Leaving two left 'til deadline.

Granted, deadline will probably be extended, but if not, that's dangerously close.

And I have hours of work left to do, yet only a little over an hour before I have to leave.
My VCA is therefore not likely to be finished before the night.

Here's what I've got, so that if I die you can continue where I left off.

Spoiler: Not even close to finished

NORMAL:

Page Two

:

(Bottom of 1, really, but same thing)
Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Nacho (slot) - 2 (Angry Pidgeon slot, Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Qwints (slot) - 1 (Loran)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Three

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Nacho (slot) - 2 (Angry Pidgeon slot, Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Four

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Nacho (slot) - 2 (Angry Pidgeon slot, Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

Page Five

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
Nacho (slot) - 1 (Penguin)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Loran - 1 (Penguin)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Qwints (slot) - 1 (Angry Pidgeon slot)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

GHOST:

Page Two

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
CityElectric - 0 (

Angry Pidgeon

slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Loran - 0 (

Penguin

)
Qwints (slot) - 1 (Loran)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Three

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 1 (LastSurvivor)
Qwints (slot) - 0 (

Loran

)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 2 (Jal, Qwints slot)

Page Four

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Mala - 0 (

LastSurvivor

)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)

Page Five

:

Jal - 2 (CityElectric, mastin2 slot)
T-Bone - 1 (Guile)
Angry Pidgeon (slot) - 3 (Jal, Qwints slot, LastSurvivor)
Not Voting: 5 (Uber slot, Loranthaceae, T-Bone, Nacho slot, Malakittens)


vOTING HISTORY DAY ONE:
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @11:20a,

CityElectric

votes

Jal

in post 2.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @11:52a,

AngryPidgeon

(slot) votes

CityElectric

in post 3.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @12:41p,

Guile

votes

T-Bone

in post 4.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @12:43p,

LastSurvivor

votes

Mala

in post 5.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @12:54p,

Penguin

votes

Loran

in post 6.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @01:07p,

Loran

votes

Qwints

(slot) in post 7.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @05:03p,

AngryPidgeon

(slot) unvotes

CityElectric

and votes

Nacho

(slot) in post 11.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @05:20p,

Penguin

unvotes

Loran

and votes

Nacho

(slot) in post 12.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @05:30p,

Jal

votes

AngryPidgeon

(slot) in post 13.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @05:36p,

Qwints

(slot) votes

AngryPidgeon

(slot) in post 14).
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @06:00p,

mastin2

(slot) votes

Jal

in post 15.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @06:56p,

Loran

unvotes

Qwints

(slot) in post 43.
On Wed Jan 1/16/13 @09:04p,

LastSurvivor

unvotes

Mala

and votes

AngryPidgeon

(slot) in post 53.
On Thu Jan 1/17/13 @01:46p,

AngryPidgeon

(slot) unvotes

Nacho

(slot) and votes

Qwints

(slot) in post 75.

In my notepad. And then there's this:

Spoiler: Player votecount history

PLAYER VOTECOUNT HISTORY, DAY ONE:
Guile: T-Bone->Loran
T-Bone: Jal->Loran->Unvote->Guile
Angry Pidgeon (slot): City->Junpei->qwints (slot)->Mala->Loran
Jal: Angry Pidgeon (slot)->Unvote (failed)->Mala
City Electric: Jal->Unvote/Loran (separate part of wall)
LastSurvivor: Mala->Adam
Qwints (slot): Adam->Mala->City->Guile
UberNinja (slot): Loran->Adam->Jal->Guile
Me, mastin2 (slot): Jal->Mala | Penguin->Guile
Penguin: Loran->Nacho (slot)->Unvote/Loran (separate part of post)->Guile
Loran: Qwints (slot)->Unvote->Penguin->LastSurvivor->City Electric->Angry Pidgeon (slot)->Unvote->Penguin->Guile
Nacho (slot): Qwints (slot)->Loran->Unvote
Mala: Angry Pidgeon (slot); failed->Angry Pidgeon (slot)->Guile

VOTING HISTORY, DAY ONE:

PLAYER VOTECOUNT HISTORY, DAY TWO:
Angry Pidgeon: Qwints (slot)->LastSurvivor->Qwints (slot)->Nacho->Qwints->Angry Pidgeon
Jal: LastSurvivor->Unvote->Penguin->LastSurvivor->Qwints (slot)->Angry Pidgeon->Qwints->Angry Pidgeon
City Electric: Loran->Unvote
LastSurvivor: Mala->Qwints (slot)->Angry Pidgeon
Qwints (slot): City->City (visibility) | Unvote->Angry Pidgeon->Unvote->Angry Pidgeon
UberNinja (slot): Mala
Me, mastin2: Mala->LastSurvivor->Qwints (slot)
Loran: City Electric->Unvote->LastSurvivor->Jokevotes (still LS)->LastSurvivor (confirm)->City Electric->Penguin->LastSurvivor->Angry Pidgeon->Angry Pidgeon (reaction)->City Electric->Qwints->LastSurvivor->Nacho->Mala->AngryPidgeon
Penguin: City Electric->Unvote->LastSurvivor->Unvote->Qwints
Nacho: Angry Pidgeon
Mala: City Electric->Angry Pidgeon

PLAYER VOTECOUNT HISTORY, DAY THREE:
LastSurvivor: Qwints
Qwints: UberNinja->City Electric
UberNinja: Penguin->Penguin (forgot)->Nacho
Me, mastin2: Qwints
Penguin: Qwints->Unvote
Loran: UberNinja->Qwints->Nacho->Unvote
Nacho: Qwints
Mala: None...

Which was last updated on the fifth, so hasn't taken into account votes in the last three days but is otherwise accurate.

Soyeah, you can see why this VCA is taking so long. I'll only be able to finish it, though, if either our deadline is extended or I don't die.

[mastin2]

(The finished product would, of course, be more neatly organized and color-code in flips we've had thusfar. Maybe some coding added as well, to make it look nicer. Butyeah, that's what I've got so far. Sorry it's not more. :/)

[mastin2]

mastin has been IIoA'ing like a motherfucker lately, but that's usually a sign that he's going to get something together if he doesn't procrastinate

Indeed. I mean, qwints is one scum, but I want to find the other. The VCA when finished will hopefully help.

I remember actually doing some sort of mental analysis already, but I forgot on who. (Not what I posted in my QT; something in addition to that, I believe.) Or what it was that I concluded.

So it's not entirely IioA. It's IwvlA.

[mastin2]

Vote: Nacho

Better vote--qwints.

Nacho's not a lynch candidate.

/will work here after errands. Be back soon.

[mastin2]

why isnt Nacho a lynch candidate?

'Cause he's town.

[mastin2]

Crap.

Vote: Mastin.

A promise I made to Nacho in my QT to vote myself if The Mindreader died the day after they revealed themselves to me.
Granted, he did so in a different method than I specified (quoting directly from my QT rather than saying, "You're town, I'm town, let's lynch scum" ), but he still did so and still ended up dead. :/

Granted, unless anyone actually has a scumread on me, I'll probably remove said self-vote since lynching me today puts us in lylo tomorrow (I made the offer N1, when we were still ahead--two mislynches later, we're no longer as ahead ), but eh, my silly sense of honor obligates me to have at least made it.
Will get back to this game and reread. I have no scumreads atm. And I'm beginning to seriously doubt my townreads. I've got paranoia about Loran, about UN (their exchange kinda looks fake), and am also looking at CTD (CE) whose slot also looks kinda bad. But I could also see Mala and/or LS as scum.

...In other words, YOU'RE ALL SCUM AND I HATE YOU ALL.
(Not really, but basically, I got nuthin'.)

[mastin2]

mastin2, any conclusions from your VCA?

What you see in-thread is what I've got. I don't access MS.net over the weekends, and I left pretty much immediately after I posted what I did. Meaning no further work got done.

Nor will any work get done; I'm suspending the effort. VCA--while useful--is a great way to augment reads.
Not to create them.

The very thing which makes my VCA useful is the very thing which makes it so that I can't afford to do it atm. It's a massive undertaking to compile it my way. Gives good info, but the meticulous process just isn't worth the time wasted when I have no reads. I'm a slacker, I procrastinate, and I kinda lack incentive to finish it; all those combined mean that it'd probably take me two weeks to compile the completed VCA and draw solid evidence from it--far too long.

Will I abandon it, heck no, but it's on suspension until I've at least got a single read.
...Okay, make that two reads, since I think I can remain confident in a townread I have on you.

The VCA was meant as a side-project, to do when I had nothing else more productive to do. Now, I have something far more important of a task to tackle, so that means no VCA until I can once-more afford to work on the side-project.

To be honest, I was hoping my VCA would draw the scum kill onto me, because I wanted 'em to fear it. Played it up as a more credible threat than it actually was. When in the grand scale of things, it's not as important as actually (re)reading the dang thread, which I desperately need to do.

[mastin2]

Oh yeah. That's an idea I had in my QT a while back, too. At least, I think I posted the idea in there. I certainly remember THINKING about it.

As a warning...I probably have the longest QT of ya guys. So lots to paraphrase.

Spoiler: Paraphrase

2-6 were Juls, using the QT much as I would, keeping notes on players and posts. I note this when I come in and do much the same. I then proceed to spam the QT with rapid-fire catchup posts stream-of-consciousness styled. By post 29 in my QT, I have accumulated my thoughts, and in post 30, I call out a scumteam of Penguin-Guile-Mal.
I have a note saying 8 shows GreyICE being town. What I meant by 8, I don't remember. A post with 8 in its number, iso 8, I dunno.

I post in my QT that I think that I'm reading basically as a formality, since I state that I doubt my reads will change.
I immediately backtrack within the next few pages of my readthrough, because I saw something which DID change my read.
I do some VCA, and in post 40, I apologize to the mind-reader for quadrupling the size of my QT in less than 24 hours.

Message 41 has my plan that I outlined. I ask for the mindreader to contact me D2. This was to
-Establish a townread on a slot which I might have had doubts on. (This proved useful considering I actually had suspicion on Nacho until he made it obvious to me that it was him. )
-Allow me to bounce reads off of them and maybe sheep them.
-Establish trust, with them contacting me and them not dieing. (That part didn't work out so well. )
*To counter-balance this, I offered myself up as a lynch if the mind-reader died the night after revealing themselves to me. (Hence, the self-vote. ) I point out that with a scum lynch on D1, we could afford to take the hit of mislynching me D3.
-I give a simple method of contacting, via asking in a single post for, "You're town, I'm town". (Considering who the mindreader was, that shouldn't have been too hard, but NOOOOOOO, Nacho HAD to go the long way around 'cause he's a stubborn ass. )
-I also state that if somebody beat me to this plan, that the mind-reader shouldn't use it on me, and whoever used it would be guaranteed town.

Over the weekend, I lose my train of thought on the game, and begin rereading stuff. I compile a new list of suspects, do some wagon-analysis on the end-of-day votecount, and basically recompose myself. In post 50, I explain why I ask Penguin to define interesting, in that use of the word is a minor scumtell. I also explain the methodology behind my most-to-least ranking system of five players. (It's an idea I picked up from ThAd in Playing With Fire--plusses and minuses, basically.) I continue posting these and updating them, and also identify AP as my guess for a mindreader, explaining why I thought as much. (In hindsight, this is probably why Nacho wanted an AP lynch so badly. Because his boy Mastin was sheeping the wrong guy. ) This is why I was so hardcore against the AP lynch, by the way, because up 'til he claimed VT, I was dead-certain AP was the mindreader.

I identify why qwints is so scum it's painful, owing in part to my AP-as-counterwagon-with-me-reading-AP-as-the-mindreader.

In message 58, I ask for AP if he claims mindreader to paraphrase all our QTs so that we get a chance to see them and evaluate them for ourselves before he dies. I type up the prototype for a post telling Nacho how to dance, and then I continue compiling the lists of players, those lists that I had asked for.

By 64, the AP mislynch has happened, I rant about how horrible the lynch was, tell the mindreader that anybody ranting about what I did in-thread is scum because a town player would vent in their QT like I did, and I call the AP lynch scummy-as-hell.

I then give more tips for Nacho, and make a mental note to do VCA. I note the drop in activity, and think that I should post something to liven it up. (I believe I didn't do this for two reasons, being that the game picked up by itself shortly after this, and that I was distracted by my VCA. Apathy mighta also contributed to it.)

The rest of my QT is dedicated to VCA and typing out drafts to answers about the VCA, which takes up 72-87. My latest post is explaining my method for which I will be looking for direction today, that being, my method for playing.

Soyeah. I have a lot.
This is seriously condensing down the content in there.

[mastin2]

Reading through Loran's paraphrase, I'm reinstating my townread on him. He and I seem to have thought a lot of the same stuff at the same time throughout the game, in addition to him actually thinking about the idea of paraphrasing them, something I had thought about but forgot to actually follow through on.

So, Penguin-town, Loran-town, me-town, we just need one more solid town and we can scumhunt via POE.

[mastin2]

VOTE: CrashTextDummie.
Discuss.

[mastin2]

Mastin, apparently you haven't improved at reading me.

Except I have.

You're doing the EXACT same thing that CE was doing in your slot before you.

The EXACT. SAME. DAMN. ANTI-TOWN. THING. From your vote to your posting style.

I've got a full case on you in my QT, which I'll be posting as soon as I augment it.
I'm pretty much 95% sure you're scum.

[mastin2]

Among the reasons CTD is scum:
He says my ability to read him has not improved.

If he thought I was town, there would be nothing wrong with this, but he hasn't said as much.

[mastin2]

Mod: V/LA upcoming

. A bit of a long-term one. In addition to my weekend V/LA, I'll be prepping for a surgery on Monday (posting then is doubtful), in surgery Tuesday (posting then is even more doubtful ), and then recovering for the next week or so. During which I'll be posting whenever I have the strength to get MS access. Shouldn't be debilitating to the point where I can't play, soyeah, you shouldn't need to replace me, but it's something you should be made aware of.

In the mean time, y'all should do me a favor and lynch CTD soon so that I can see his scum-flip before leaving. Would put my heart at ease to know we lynched scum before I go into it.

[mastin2]

CTD left out the convenient part where I actually had it narrowed down to three individuals--UN, himself (which I thought was the scumteam--CTD-UN), and Malakittens.

That's why the scum didn't hammer; the scum were already on. I thought UN was bussing his scumbuddy, hence why I didn't mention in-thread that UN was scum, but CTD can verify that I said as much.

VOTE: UberNinja.

[mastin2]

Convenient how?

'Convenient', in that your phrasing made it sound as if I was only suspicious of you. >_<

And UN's pretty much confscum at this point. Pushing MalaK is a desperate last-minute bus when he's ran out of cards to play.

[mastin2]

Yes, and how is that convenient? Why would I try to misrepresent what you've posted in your QT?

You wouldn't try and misrepresent. You did accidentally misrepresent. It wasn't your intention, but it's clearly what your post accidentally implied.

One more quickie for Mastin2 on current events:
All combinations of scum you've presented today have involved heavy-duty bussing. UN and I were bussing each other. Now UN is bussing Mala. What makes you think scum is likely to bus at this stage of the game?

Because now's the ideal time to.

[mastin2]

Final post before I leave, telling you that I am leaving pretty much right now.
I'll be back in five days.

[mastin2]

Mastin2

:

1. Why are you pushing UN/Mala and not PA/LS? Looking at your play over the course of the game, the second should look much, much more likely to you.
2. Why are you putting so much stock in Nacho's reads, when he's demonstrated nothing but bad judgement in this game? Why does someone who was so evidently wrong in his reads cause you to bump players from 75% certain to 99% certain town?
3. Why aren't you the least bit rattled by the fact that your strongest scum read turned up to be town?
4. Why does your idea on whether scum is likely to [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4808361[/url] conveniently change to suit your purpose?
5. When and why did your read on penguin_alien change from scum to def-town?

As you've no doubt read in my QT, this has, in fact, changed. LS remains town, because:
-Nacho had him as town,
-Meta suggests he's town,
-He was an early townread of mine (albeit weak) which I want to trust,
-And because I have far larger suspects.

Penguin, not so much. I am revisiting my read there, and in fact have her as #2 scum, behind Malakittens.

I put trust in Nacho's reads because,
1: He was the mindreader, and
2: He's a damn-good scumhunter. His push on AP was understandable, and his push on qwints even moreso, but that doesn't mean he's a terribad scumhunter for pushing those mislynches. You can refer to our extensive game history (and even our hydra experience) for more details on why I trust him. It's just something I do.

I'm not rattled by you being town because I'm not rattled by me being wrong. I am no scumhunting god. Would you prefer an over-the-top, "CRAP CRAP OH HOLY BEEP I CAN'T BELIEVE HE WAS ACTUALLY TOWN!??" That's my scum meta. Town-Mastin is almost defined by under-reacting to being wrong; you can check out pretty much any of my recently-completed town games to see it.

I don't remember when my read on Penguin changed from scum to town, but you know when it changed from town to scum.
Over the weekend, I had that realization, that I very well could be wrong.

[mastin2]

Speaking of which,
VOTE: Malakittens.

[mastin2]

I mangled Mastin's question 4:

4. Why does your idea on whether scum is likely to (cross)bus conveniently change to suit your purpose?

And while I no longer believe this to be true, the simple answer is, of course, timeframe.

Crossbussing on d2 is a completely different beast from crossbussing on d4.

Granted, yes, occam's razor suggests they aren't crossbussing, hence my change in reads over the weekend, but it's more likely to happen in theory today than it was to happen on an earlier day. Pretty simple stuff.

[mastin2]

Questions for Mastin when he gets back, as his ISO rose the most (which was surprising, frankly):

1) Why did you go from saying CE was town in 1210 to voting his replacement in 1500. Also, why did you refer to CTD's posting as anti-town in #1503, and not scummy?

2) Why are you voting UN? You pretty much hopped on his predecessor's dick when you replaced in, yet you're voting UN for little to no reason at all. What's going on buckaroo?

3) How do you feel about the list you posted in 843 and your theory that there has to be at least one scum in it?

4) On a similar vein, how much real money are you still willing to bet that both scum are in the group you posed in #883?

I didn't call CE town in that post.

(At worst it'd be null if CE simply wasn't around.)

CE

wasn't

around, so I was calling it null, not scum. My overall read on CE's slot for the whole game was ambivalent. Sometimes I leaned town (and leaned town more often than I did not), sometimes I leaned scum, and overall, when it came down to it, that lack of read so late in the game turned into a read itself: scumread. CTD saw the full case I had made, and while ultimately wrong, it was not ill-reasoned. I called it anti-town because in my QT I had already called it scummy. If memory serves, I was hoping for a reaction (probably out of CTD).

I voted UN because his posting seemed fake overall and through POE he was among my top candidates for scum. Now, this has since changed over the weekend, as I really don't want to doubt my earlier-self.

My reads have changed since day two, based off of new evidence. As much as I'd love to claim I am, I'm no scumhunting god, and can (and obviously have been) wrong on my reads. I got distracted, like I did in Harry Potter. I lost track of my original (more accurate) reads and entered into a fight with those who were town.

If betting real money wasn't forbidden by site rules, I would still be betting something like $20 on there being scum in that last list, though, because guess who's in there? MalaK.

[mastin2]

One thing I'd like him to clarify is at what point exactly he figured out that Nacho was the MR.

Memory's a bit hazy, but I believe it was shortly after my night post where I called out people on trolling, Nacho included.

I remembered a specific detail about Nacho's post. He said that I suspected him for valid reasons--an almost exact quote from my QT. I missed it at the time because I thought I had said that in-thread, but I went back and checked, saw I hadn't, and knowing that AP wasn't the mindreader, figured out who it was.

So, shortly after 66. I of course didn't say so in the QT because I don't know how OGML handles QTs of the dead; if he doesn't announce that they're dead, it'd have been possible for me to be dead. (As I explained in 67.)

After that, I kinda took it for granted that Nacho knew I knew. Going into the night, he was a serious suspect; by day's dawning, I had dropped him as a suspect entirely. Granted, my memory of events during this time is a little bit fuzzy, so I could be fudging the exact timeline, but it's definitely in that range.

[mastin2]

CTD, you're right. I wasn't thinking when I voted UN. You're right. In that I backtracked out over the weekend. You're right, in that going back to my early-self is a cop-out for when I've failed. I don't exactly see where you're coming from with the rest, though. Yes, I'm abandoning my later pushes, because time and time again, my later pushes are being shown to be wrong. They evolved organically, yes, to get there--but evolution is not always in the right direction. So you're right, in that I'm forcing myself back to my early-self, because that's where I felt I was strong. That switch might seem forced, but if you've seen my game history, you'd recognize why I have damn-good reason to do this.

I had PA as town, yes. The fact that I don't remember why I had PA as town, though, should tell you all that you need to know: it was an outdated read, which I should have dropped but stubbornly kept pushing. I do stupid stuff. Regardless of my alignment, you've shown my actions with blindness to PA to be stupid. Now tell me what you actually think of PA and me. Am I scum going in to bus her? Am I bad-town who happened to have barked up the wrong tree before but am now catching on?

(And, yes, I have explained the difference. I explained it in D2, even. Back then, timing's important. Now, not as much; you can live through a crossbus, whereas on d2 you cannot. I said so on d2 pretty much, even explicitly saying, "maybe later in the game, but not on d2". Paraphrased, of course.)

And, yes, I did say I had a read on MalaK; I said my vote would be on her if I could. Especially in the post 98/99 range.

[mastin2]

I called it anti-town because in my QT I had already called it scummy.

If memory serves, I was hoping for a reaction

(probably out of CTD).

Why call it scummy in the QT but not in the actual game...?

I voted UN because his posting seemed fake overall and through POE he was among my top candidates for scum. Now, this has since changed over the weekend, as I really don't want to doubt my earlier-self.

How convenient. Was it my questions that caused the change?

First part, answered in the quote itself. Second part, no. It was me realizing I was being an idiot which sparked the change.

Voting UN was stupid. When I was presented with CTD being undeniably town, the correct play wasn't to go, "Oh, guess it's the other two, UN and MalaK". (Which is what I did.) The correct play was to step back, re-evaluate my reads, and see where I went wrong. Which I did over the weekend, after realizing how much of an idiot I had been.

[mastin2]

You had her at 80% town. That's a strong read, and you can't explain it at all?

Actually, as far as percentages go, anything below 90% isn't strong. Below 85% is actually pretty dang weak.

And as I said overnight--you're right. Having Penguin as town is BS.

And I did say I had a scumread on MalaK and Penguin. "If I recall correctly, I was greatly suspicious of Mal and Penguin." Is as close to a direct quote as I can give without actually directly quoting. What do you do when you see you've been wrong, CTD? Fall back onto previous reads (which I did but shouldn't have done), or go back to a time when said reads were shown to be more accurate? As I said--my reads on d1 were good. I got guile as scum. I had Penguin and MalaK as scum. Heck, I had many players who later in the game were null or scumreads, as town on that day. You seem to have trouble seeing why I went back, but I have trouble seeing why you have an issue with me going back there.

Related--I do not believe in not voting. This is something easily verifiable by going to any game I've ever been in, ever. When I unvote someone, it's to vote someone else.
Also--I can lynch Penguin, too; the strength of my scumreads on those two are roughly comparable to each other.

[mastin2]

CTD mighta already said it to y'all, but:

Mod:

Need some additional V/LA time. My dog's dieing. Needless to say, I'm emotionally compromised. I can post today, but my content today will be of a more emotional nature.

[mastin2]

VOTE: Penguin Alien.

[mastin2]

I want to lynch LS and Uber. Who is with me?

Not I.

I'm thinking things through, but Mala really, really,

really

looks like scum to me. Her posts don't seem to make sense to me from a town perspective.

But that said--I'm not voting yet because I have no clue who her scumbuddy would be. If memory serves, CTD chastised me for my MalaK-UN scumteam theory, but...well...based purely off of reads (POE, essentially, with strength of my townreads), that's the scumteam which is strongest to me. Their interactions don't look stellar to me, despite claims to the contrary about how unlikely that scumteam would be.

Basically--

I know I'm town.
LS I think remains town. I'll need to reread to be sure, but my memory has both Nacho and CTD fully confident in him being among the least-likely to be scum, at least in part because of meta. (MalaK ignoring the meta tell to have suspicion on LS contributes to the scumread on her, btw.)
Loran also seems town to me, and has the whole game. His play this whole game has made sense to me from a town perspective, and I've liked a lot of his posting. He had Nacho's seal of approval if memory serves, but CTD's mark of disapproval.
UN...nil. Got nothin'. Don't really remember him, and that's a problem.

But all this said, right now, I'm incredibly detached from the game. I need to get back into it before committing to any of this.

[mastin2]

hmm either the scumteam isn't online to hammer, you are scum or mala is scum. Let's wait some more and see what happens. Town don't vote yet.

There is a third option you seem to be ignoring: they're both scum crossbussing. Why did you eliminate that possibility, Loran?

[mastin2]

because he knows one of us is town

because he's scum

This was my thought as well, by the way.

LS, what do you think of a MalaK-Loran scumteam?

I know you said you thought it was MalaK-me, but I don't bus and I'm attacking MalaK, so it's not me.

[mastin2]

LS, what do you think of a MalaK-Loran scumteam?

I doubt it. What do you think of it?

The alternatives are MalaK-UN and MalaK-

You

, LS.

I currently lean that way and wonder why you're doubting it. It's not MalaK-me, and if you're town then it wouldn't be MalaK-You. So, the final scum would be either UN or Loran.

I can be talked into it being UN easily (as that is what I was thinking at the beginning of the day), but Loran's posting is making it increasingly look like a MalaK-Loran scumteam.

[mastin2]

Why I am town

:

-

Early presence on the guile wagon.

Third vote, in fact. I was the turning point. Before my vote, guile wasn't getting lynched. After my vote, guile was lynched almost immediately.
-

Meta:

You have lack of self-hammering working in your favor, LS. I have lack of bussing in mine. For me to be scum, I'd have to have bussed guile. A quick look into my completed games will show that I haven't bussed unless I deemed it absolutely necessary. Now you can argue that I might have deemed a guile bus necessary, but...
-

Meta and relations:

If you think MalaK is scum you cannot think I am, because I've taken a vow to never bus again, not even when my scumbuddy is obvscum to me. Which Mal is. My enthusiasm for a MalaK lynch proves I'm not her scumbuddy.
-

Backup Mindreader vote of confidence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe CTD had me as his strongest townread by the end of the day. If not the strongest townread, then among them; I showed up in none of his scumteam pairings.

As just a few off the top of my head.

[mastin2]

The alternatives are MalaK-UN and MalaK-

You,

LS.

I currently lean that way and wonder why you're doubting it. It's not MalaK-me, and if you're town then it wouldn't be MalaK-You. So, the final scum would be either UN or Loran.

I can be talked into it being UN easily (as that is what I was thinking at the beginning of the day), but Loran's posting is making it increasingly look like a MalaK-Loran scumteam.

I'm thinking You > UN > Loran in terms of who the second scum is. And since tomorrow will be LYLO as well as today, I'm not willing to compromise unless you can prove to me you're town.

I hope this whole "Omg LS if it's not Loran it's [BOLD]YOU!!![/BOLD]" isn't some scare tactic to make me hop on with you onto Loran, Mastin. Because it's just making you look worse.

What's wrong with Loran's recent posting anyway, Mastin? Hopefully you recall giving him a stellar town read in #1815, so you better have a good reason for changing your mind.

Here's the thing, LS. You say you doubt MalaK-Loran, yet believe Loran to be town. And I know it's not MalaK-me. Therefore, there are only two possible pairings if it's NOT MalaK-Loran:
MalaK-UN, and MalaK-You, as I said. And assuming you're town would leave the only possibility as being MalaK-UN for it to not be MalaK-Loran.

I already told you that my read on Loran could change, and it has off of his posting. I need to double-check, but I remember him being among CTD's suspects among other things. Furthermore, Loran's hardcore defending MalaK, and if you're so sure about MalaK being scum, there's no way to

not

be at LEAST a little suspicious of that defense.

[mastin2]

You've taken a vow never to bus again? Where is that documented?

Invitational 15. Bussing landed the town a near-perfect town win, which had I kept to my normal bus-only-as-necessary meta would probably not have happened. So I made a vow, both in my QT and the post-game, never to bus again in order to prevent that disaster from ever happening again. It's the only way to be sure.

'Sides. Scum always look scummier to scumbuddies than to actual town, because as the informed minority they pick up on scumtells that the town would either miss, write off, or flat-out call towntells. And in the current site meta, bussing is expected so my refusal to bus would be disbelieved and therefore those who I attack would still come under fire when I die as scum.

Basically...historically, bussing has never ended well for me; EVERY bus I've EVER performed has backfired spectacularly on me, when it quite frankly wasn't necessary in the first place. Historically, not-bussing has landed me almost every single one of my scum wins, and has never actually backfired on me; quite the opposite, refusal to bus has landed me scum victories which we might have otherwise missed.

Essentially, I have tons of reasons never to bus.

[mastin2]

EDBWOP:

You say you doubt MalaK-Loran, yet believe

MalaK

to be

scum

.

[mastin2]

No moreso than always-self-hammering-as-scum.

It's a playstyle decision. It's a gambit, you could say. It's something which can backfire on me spectacularly if in any game a player sees me consistently defending a player and never voting them, when said player (or I) flips scum; if they're familiar with my meta that'd send off red-flags and put my faction at a disadvantage.

[mastin2]

Maybe when I'm less tired, I can give it another look, but I can't find any way to read 1908 as being from a town mindset.

Also,

I agree that Mastin is town

The only one I trust right now is Mastin and therefore wanting to really make a block with him right now. I know it sounds really dumb, but he is the only one I'm certain of the huge town read.

My main suspects are calling me town.

I'm having trouble seeing that as town. As scum, it makes perfect sense for them to be buddying me; they need me to vote with them to win, or make me vote first, for someone outside of them. (LS or Uber.) As town, I just don't understand how they'd have this level of conviction about me being town. I don't have that level of confidence in anyone, not even LS who is currently my strongest townread.

[mastin2]

I'm trying not to have confirmation bias. But...

I have to convince either LS, Mastin or you into voting Uber rather then voting me.

I can't read this as town. I just can't. The wording suggests only needing to convince one person. Not two.

Further, I just don't get how if MalaK is convinced Uber is scum why there's no vote. If he's scum and if she's so sure, then there's not going to be a hammer overnight.

[mastin2]

Stating intent to vote Uber.

And herein lies another reason why I keep on seeing a MalaK-Loran scumteam.

If Loran were town, he'd either vote or not vote. Not state intention to vote. He's waiting for someone else to vote, so that he can hammer.

[mastin2]

I'm sorry, Malakittens, but I just have to follow through on this.

Vote: Malakittens.

[mastin2]

So I'm about to be simultaneously disappointed and impressed then?

No. That'd be if I were scum with MalaK and just violated my vow and hammered my scumbuddy. I'm guaranteeing you that's not true.

[mastin2]

If she actually IS town, I suppose now would be the best time for her to come in and yell at me. lol

For both her and you to be town, the scumteam would have to be LS-Loran and neither of them hammering, 'cause I-as-scum could vote for either of you and let LS/Loran hammer.

[mastin2]

But, whenever you say I-as-scum, you ARE scum.

Pretty sure I say that all the time, UN. What gives you the impression I only say that as scum?

[mastin2]

And here's our QT which I insist you all read.

[mastin2]

I've taken a vow to never bus again

So much for vows, eh?

Oi! I told you to read the mafia QT! The explanation is in there.

Also, the dead QT itself says as much. The entirety of /invitational 15 was after Guile was already dead. It started after Guile was dead, it ended midway through D4. Furthermore, if you look at the timing, you'll realize that I stopped pushing UN as being scum at all immediately after I took the vow. (I didn't say as much since I took the vow while /invitational 15 was still ongoing; it's there in that mafia QT.) The vow was never broken. It simply hadn't existed at the time.

Seriously, timestamps are important.

[mastin2]

Here's mine. Now you can see just how dang manipulative I was in it.

I'm kinda curious, though. It was mentioned that GI's mind-reader topic said either Junpei or Adam was the mind-reader. I'm wondering what the timestamp of that comment was, since I made that exact conclusion in our mafia QT on D1. (As it turned out, correctly so. For most of D2, I thought it was AP, but by the end I was already thinking it was Nacho thanks to AP's VT claim combined with Nacho's insights into my QT. )