AMURIKA MAFIA - Game Over

[Bulbazak]

Hiiiii Morning...

Vote Gorgon

Did you really think that was worth pointing out?

[Bulbazak]

Because there was no possible need to point that out. That truth was self-evident. It's sort of like when a PR is NK, and the first post is "Well, that sucks.". The post was not needed, and therefore is unlikely to have come from town. It's the type of post that scum would make to appear town, not to mention the fact that it serves no purpose and doesn't do much to stimulate discussion.

All that being said, at least now we have some actual discussion going on and can move out of RVS. I'd like to get some others' thoughts on this matter, because maybe I'm off base here.

@CryoNudist: It's not an RVS vote, but I also don't necessarily think that Gorgon is scum. I just found his vote extremely odd, and I had a hard time reconciling that with a town mindset. Voting for Gorgon for this reason puts pressure on him, gives me information, stimulates discussion, and most importantly, gets me out of RVS. The sooner we start scum hunting, the sooner I can get some actual reads to work with.

[Bulbazak]

Crap. I did say vote didn't I? I actually meant his post referencing the Innocent Child. His vote was just a typical RVS. And I didn't say "I don't think he's scum." I said "I don't necessarily think he is scum." There is a difference. Right now I have no idea who is town or scum, other than chamber, our IC. I just want to get out of RVS so I can get some actual good reads, and if that involves a wagon on me, fine.

[Bulbazak]

Cryo, I understand how points 2 & 3 equal a weak vote, but how do they mean that I am scum?

[Bulbazak]

If you could Quote where we said that you are Scum, we'd be grateful.

So why are you voting me if you don't think I am scum?

[Bulbazak]

Interesting. I walk away for a couple of hours and the wagon builds up to L-2. Chances of lynching scum d1 increasing...

The game already started.. Huh!!!
VOTE: Gorgon

Why?

Are you scum?

Do you seriously expect anyone to answer that?

Maybe because we think your actions thus far are scummy contradictions of themselves?

Yeah, contradictions are what I am seeing as well, but it's more contradictions between words and actions. He says he doesn't mind being wagoned, yet questions you as to your motives for keeping your vote on him while doing no real hunting of his own since you voted him, which he has stated he wants to do. His vote is still on me, yet he's not commenting on me and not looking for any other suspects either. Maybe his questioning you is supposed to constitute hunting but if that's the case, it doesn't really come off as such. More like defense.

I'm good wagoning him now, especially as I don't see anything else that's nearly as votable in this game so far.

I had not commented on anything else, because I was away. I had not unvoted you, because I saw no reason to, and I wanted to see who else would latch on to my vote. The reason I questioned Cryo's vote on me was to see whether he had a legit case for me being scum, or whether he decided to add a third vote to a wagon when the slightest thing that could be conceived as scummy appeared. Hint: One of those is scummy. The other is not.

And you're willing to put a wagon at L-2 for hardly any reason at all on the first day of play? Why would you want the day to be over so fast? Because that will only lead to a quicklynch, and leave town at -2. Add in the comment on Joel's scumminess, and I'm definitely not moving my vote now.

Speaking of which... Joel, you join the largest wagon and then vote for a no lynch?! Seriously!?

fos Joelsdaman1

[Bulbazak]

But for now I have no evidence to vote, but don't wanna seem scummy.

What is your goal? To scum hunt or to not appear scummy (aka appear pro-town)?

[Bulbazak]

What is with the rush to end day phases so quickly?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba: Why assume Innocent Child was familiar? I only know it from offsite, never seen it here before.

Whether Gorgon was familiar with the concept of an Innocent Child or not, the point was that he went out of his way to point out that Chamber was a confirmed townie. That post serves no purpose, and in my mind is a weaker version of a NK comment tell (That is commenting on the NK at the start of the day.)

@Bulba- We are in no absolute rush for the Day to be ended, but it is pretty frakking clear that Joel is Today's Lynch. Why do you think he went after SK instead of you?

Probably because he either 1.) Didn't count it as worthwhile pursuing, since I was the primary wagon OR 2.) Realized he'd probably run a greater risk by voting me for OMGUS reasons. If he voted for me because of my fos, my wagon would probably have derailed and shifted toward him. Scum-Joel would want to preserve my wagon for a mislynch if at all possible. With SK, even though he runs a similar risk, it's not as great. Then again, it might be a combination of the 2.

[Bulbazak]

Whether Gorgon was familiar with the concept of an Innocent Child or not, the point was that he went out of his way to point out that Chamber was a confirmed townie. That post serves no purpose, and in my mind is a weaker version of a NK comment tell (That is commenting on the NK at the start of the day.)

Exactly how reliable is that tell, the NK comment tell? How often have you seen it successfully applied?

To be honest, I have not seen many people commit that tell. There was someone who commented on the NK in my first game, although no one called him out for it. I pegged him as scum later and was correct. Normally the people who commit this tell are called out on it at the very least, and it can lead to some good discussion.

Are you scum?

Do you seriously expect anyone to answer that?

I'm more interested in knowing why you felt need to comment on that.

I normally answer any question posed to me, and I had just came back to find that my wagon had quickly been built up to L-2 in the 2 hours I was away. Because of this, I missed that the question was rhetorical.

[Bulbazak]

And you're willing to put a wagon at L-2 for hardly any reason at all on the first day of play? Why would you want the day to be over so fast? Because that will only lead to a quicklynch, and leave town at -2.

I don't think there was 'hardly any reason'. I think I had some good reasons. And my motive was definitely not to end the day, hence I made it clear that this was L-2 (although it was really probably L-1 after all; I wouldn't have voted if I had counted correctly), expecting that no one would add another vote. People get put at L-2 all the time without it leading to a quicklynch, even early in the game; it's part of the game. L-1 is more serious though and a sustained L-1 pretty much means that the wagoned player is being asked to claim. But L-2 is just a pretty decent amount of pressure, and you had indicated yourself that you didn't mind being wagoned.

I didn't mind being wagoned, because I felt I could gain information based on who jumped on my wagon and why. Due to the speed by which my wagon built up, I have a hard time believing that it was completely town driven. Therefore, I am using my wagon to find scum. Right now I have 4 suspects, of which I believe no more than 2 are actually scum. I didn't like your willingness to jump on my wagon so quickly for what I believe is weak reasoning, therefore I have not been able to rule you out. If you'd like to explain your reasoning better, please go ahead. The sooner I can rule out suspects, the better.

Add in the comment on Joel's scumminess, and I'm definitely not moving my vote now.

If I read you correctly, me commenting on joel's jump on your wagon is all the more reason for you to keep your vote on me ... why?

I was suspicious of your motives for voting me. You then follow that up by commenting on the scumminess of another player whose scumminess had already been pointed out. I was having a hard time reconciling both of those actions with a town mindset.

[Bulbazak]

I've visited PlayDiplomacy, and I just had to facepalm at the mafia format. That being said, I'm not ready to believe that Joel is a VI just yet, mainly because of how willing he is to shift suspicion onto almost anybody else.

Joel, I would suggest you play at least one Newbie game on this site. It would help you grow accustomed to the way this game works.

[Bulbazak]

Well, do you have something to comment on now?

[Bulbazak]

@Chamber: I found the quote in question. It's from PeregrineV. That being said, it would be nice if you would assist in the scumhunting. At least put that conf. town status to use.

[Bulbazak]

Okay Yoda. What do you gather from the situation thus far?

[Bulbazak]

@AA9: Why ignore all this cool stuff going on? The Gorgon thing, Bulba thing... none of that is worth discussing?

Vote: AA9

Seriously, I didn't even say anything so far to call me... first learn to play lady.
And what's with your Questionnaire, Stop asking too many questions and tell us your reads.

What's wrong with questions? That's how you get reads. Deflecting much?

VOTE: Joel

Isn't this suppose to ve RVS, Why didn't you unvote?

We're pretty much out of RVS at this point, hence the wagons and questions and stuff. What is your take on all that has transpired in this short time?

[Bulbazak]

@AA9: Why do you continue not to answer any of Morning's questions? Furthermore, why do you find the asking of questions scummy (I had a hard time following your previous post.)? Why would Morning have definitive reads so early in the day, and furthermore, why should she be so open with them?

die die die sk sk sk

You've got to be kidding me...

[Bulbazak]

Who is HD?

[Bulbazak]

This is why I try to limit the amount of games I play...

[Bulbazak]

I just had a thought (pretty rare).

Cryo may be a lyncher. He's been obsessed with getting me from day one, and started the Joel wagon.

He's been more lyncher-like then I've been mafia-like.

You've got to be kidding me... Joel, I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but your posts have noob-scum written all over them.

I'd post more, but my dog is sick and in pain. I'm going to be taking her to the vet in a little bit, but it's hard to try to play a game and comfort her at the same time. I'll post later today with a response to Cryo, Gorgon, and Joel.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, back and rested and dog is medicated. Time for the epic catchup post of epicness!

How is this scummy at all? This just means he's voting badly.

We believe bad Voting is scummy from someone who is not in their 1st game or a complete muppet.

Voting badly IS scummy. I guess one can excuse it with by saying that the person doing it is just VI/noob, but again, referring to the game I just finished with SK, it's not a foolproof defense at all.

How is voting badly scummy? Scum will make bad votes or votes that they know are not true, but that doesn't mean ALL bad votes are scummy. I've seen many town players make what would be considered bad votes, simply because they believed in what they were saying at the time. I've also seen town players with a bad vote or reason to vote actually hit scum. Bad votes by themselves ARE NOT inherently scummy. This is an example of the HBA fallacy.

That being said, I had a reason for my vote: to put pressure on Gorgon. Whether you guys believe it was bad or not, I did it for a reason in an attempt to gather information and catapult us out of RVS at this early stage. Without it, we would not be where we are now.

Are you fucking serious?

In context this makes sense. We accused him of Voting someone he didn't believe to be Scum {since cleared up by the definition of 'is'}. It was ironic, hence the next 3 words.

I said I "did not necessarily think" Gorgon was scum. The possibility was still in the back of my mind, since it was too early to get any clear reads, but that was not the purpose of voting him in the first place. I wanted to put pressure on him, because I felt that the statement he made was unusual coming from town. I did not think he was scummy because of this statement, but I was having a hard time seeing the town motivation behind it. I revealed it was a pressure vote simply because you asked. In hindsight, I probably should have kept it to myself, but at the time, I felt there was no need to hide my motivations, and I also wanted there to be some transparency regarding my thought process.

Due to the speed by which my wagon built up, I have a hard time believing that it was completely town driven.

It's a nice working theory but not completely solid IMO. I have seen completely town-driven wagons build up pretty fast too. Anyway, I think it would be more protown (not to mention consistent with your words) for you to consider all the players that joined your wagon, but there are some that you haven't even commented on.

Actually, I have been considering all of the players on my wagon. I play these games a lot in my head, so most of the work has already been done by the time I actually post. Here's how my reads on the wagon stand right now:

Doctor Black: His vote is null due to RVS. However, he's been on both wagons, and hasn't commented much on the events on the game. I think Cryo's earlier question still needs answering: What are your thoughts on the events of the game thus far?

Goodmorning: Her RVS vote is understandable, as we've played with each other before. I've liked her play so far, and I have a pretty solid town read on her.

CryoNudist: I'm a little torn here. I have a pretty strong gut scum read, but certain events are making me doubt it. I'll watch how the day turns out and go from there.

PeregrineV: His vote was a pressure vote. Completely understandable. I haven't seen enough to solidify my reading one way or another. Null leaning town.

Joelsdaman1: I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes if it acts like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is most certainly a duck. Noob scum. Will go into it more further in the post.

Gorgon: I've liked the answers thus far. Any doubts I've had before are starting to vanish. Developing a pretty decent town read.

Also, this ruling out suspects talk is weird. What would be the criteria for that, exactly?

It is important to not only refine scum reads, but also town reads. I thought the build up of my wagon was a little odd, and I felt that it would be best to start searching for scum there. I decided there was no more than 2 scum on my wagon, since it would be stupid for all 3 to be there. So I've been looking and questioning those people specifically in order to ascertain their motivations. From there I can develop my reads on them and better understand this game.

I was suspicious of your motives for voting me. You then follow that up by commenting on the scumminess of another player whose scumminess had already been pointed out. I was having a hard time reconciling both of those actions with a town mindset.

Okay ... agreeing with other players can definitely be a scumtell but town still do it all the time as well. It's only if it becomes a definite pattern that it's notable, IMO - and as with anything else context is important. In this case I probably would have commented on joel's vote even if nobody else had done so as being apologetic about your vote is a scumtell in my book. How was this particular agreement not town?

Point taken. I had just come back and saw a quickly developed wagon. Seeing as how I voted for you, I saw your reasoning and leap on my wagon as blantant sheeping and scummy. It was easy to carry that over to the joel comment. After some time, I can see this wasn't the case, especially as I thought it best to question Joel as well and add pressure with my Fos.

That being said, I'm not ready to believe that Joel is a VI just yet, mainly because of how willing he is to shift suspicion onto almost anybody else.

FFFFFFFFFF---

Oh yes, this 'he's shifting suspicion onto almost everyone else' is a classic scum line as far as I'm concerned. Especially (as is usually the case) when it's not really true. As in this case, as far as I can tell. Say what you will about joel's play, but I don't think that's a fair description of it.

How do you explain this:

What *exactly* makes me seem scummy, as opposed to SK or Cryo obsessively accusing me? How does it seem like me and Bulba are a team, when we never interact, as opposed to SK and Cryo, agreeing with each other's every vote?

No one find that odd?

But for now I'm not happy with Bulb or SK - so watch out.

Cryo, your obsession with me is faltering - however actually makes you seem more suspicious.

Guys, you've been pressuring me for three days. I think it's pretty clear of 3 things:
1. I'm not used to this site, but I won't use that as an excuse for poor play
2. SK and Cryo really want me lynched, for whatever reason (I have my own suspicions why)
3. The people who are defending me have clearly read all my posts, while those that are accusing me have selectively read things that sound scummy.

Please have the decency to read all of my posts. And, seriously, SK & Cryo - you guys are just seeming more and more guilty the more you focus on just me.

I just had a thought (pretty rare).

Cryo may be a lyncher. He's been obsessed with getting me from day one, and started the Joel wagon.

He's been more lyncher-like then I've been mafia-like.

To me that's him deflecting suspicion by saying, "You guys find me scummy? What about these guys? They're way scummier than I am!" That's the main reason my scumdar is going crazy on Joel's posts.

Regarding the last post, it also reminds me of another game I read where a similar tactic was used. Guess what, the noob flipped scum.

This is not date site... Get to the Scum hunting.
Chamber2, What is your read on GoodMorning?

First, I don't know what your beef is with Goodmorning. She's done a decent amount of scum hunting, unlike you. If you are going to insist on tunneling her, at least provide a decent case. Second, why are you not answering any of the questions the rest of us have asked you?

Cryo, what it looks like that you're pushing joels too much to put a scum label on him..
i don't know if he is scum or not but my read on you is improving.. you're acting way to scummy now...

Chainsaw defense.

Even though Nacho forgot my vote was on Gorgon during the last vote count, I think it's best to

Unvote

.

I want to wait and see what happens between Cryo and Joel. In the meantime, I'm going to try to look for the more subtle scum.

[Bulbazak]

Well, first of all I don't really need to explain this in the context of your quoted comment on Joel's play in your #113, as 3/5 of those joel posts were made after that post. The issue of whether that comment is a fair description of Joel's play can only really hinge on the posts he had made so far. And even so, it's clear from those posts that he has only pointed fingers on a select number of players, not 'almost anybody else'.

Fair enough. I didn't look back to when I said it when gathering the quotes from Joel. I think it was the SK and Cryo comments that were setting my scumdar off, as I recognized what it was. It is the kind of scum mindset that wants to deflect attention onto any other target. I probably didn't word it correctly in my original post, and for that I apologize.

I also don't think it's time to put Joel at L-1. We're still early in the day, which means we can try to find the other more subtle scum. Not to mention the fact that I'm gathering plenty of information right now with the current pressure, not only from Joel, but also from Cryo.

[Bulbazak]

I'm wary of AA9 only in the event that Joel flips scum. All of her actions are either defending him or attacking you, both of which are not necessarily unconnected. I have not seen a good case from her or any action that I can judge by itself to altogether judge alliance. I'm still waiting for her to answer our questions, but all that I'm seeing suggests a Joel/AA9 scumteam with a more wily scum partner hiding in the background. The good thing is the Joel wagon is giving a lot of information concerning player interactions. I've gotten a few good town reads based off of this wagon and my own.

[Bulbazak]

Wow, while i am away, Scums are doing pretty good job in framing innocents..
Cryo - You're reasons for voting Joel are pathetic, so far you have doing nothing but faking so far..

Unvote

VOTE: CryoNudist

*sound of chainsaw revving up*

AA9, I know you're defending Joel and all, but why don't you make an actual definitive case for him that does not revolve around him being a noob. We all have seen significant scumtells from him, and these are not noob based at all. If you want to defend a town read, the best course of action is to convince others of why you think he's town, instead of just saying that he's town. In the meantime, quit avoiding our questions. If you're confused as to what I'm talking about, here's a little reminder of what you've avoided answering:

@AA9: Why do you continue not to answer any of Morning's questions? Furthermore, why do you find the asking of questions scummy (I had a hard time following your previous post.)? Why would Morning have definitive reads so early in the day, and furthermore, why should she be so open with them?

[Bulbazak]

Ehhh, I can think of a few other reasons she'd attack me, but can't talk about them because rules.



In other news, I keep forgetting Om exists in this game. I mean, I know he just posted today, but he just... you know? Am I the only one?

Yeah... Rules... Pretty much the same reason why I got an early town read on you. As for Om, he's a pretty solid null for me. Which is infuriating, because I'm starting to get some pretty solid reads on everyone else. Nulls are not good while I'm searching for the other scum. While the Joel discussion has been great for illuminating some of the players, other players have remained well in the background.

Just took a look at Om in iso while preparing a question for him. I'm starting to get a slight gut scum read. There's some very subtle seeding that doesn't feel right on a reread.

Peregrine, when you get back, I hope to get your thoughts on the events of the game so far, especially the Joel wagon.

[Bulbazak]

Morning, I believe he was pointing it out to Hiraki, who thought that Chamber was scum.

[Bulbazak]

Joel Wagon, this looks way too easy to say that it is a scum wagon. When Cryo started this, It was more as in RVS but that RVS vote of Cry never changed, it appearing more as like that mafia is framing Joel becuz he is an easy pick.

First, Cryo did not start the wagon on Joel, Dan did. Second, Cryo's RVS vote was on Om. By the time he voted for Joel, RVS had long since been over, and Cryo's vote had not been on Om in a long time. Your whole statement is false. At least read the game next time.

Cryo, I have my own suspicions of Hiraki. I don't believe he is mafia, but I'm vary wary of him at this moment. I don't think there's any doubt at this point that both Joel and AA9 are scum. There's just too much that he's done to still be considered noob town, and AA9's posts have gotten progressively worse. I'm also getting a stronger town read on you. I'm going to continue to look for their partner and will probably put Joel at L-1 in a couple of days.

VOTE: Cryo

Not OMGUS, but as a response to the way he finds some fault with everyone's post but his own. For flinging votes around like ape shit, being a jerk and a half, and questioning beyond what is reasonable.

Most of these are not reasons to vote someone, and the first point is only valid if you can provide why you believe it is scummy. Quotes are nice. Otherwise, it is called scum hunting, something I suggest you do if you're really town.

[Bulbazak]

We are at a loss...

Bulb, did you hack our account and read our PMs to each other? I'm not shitting you, that first paragraph is almost exactly what was said amongst ourselves.

The part to AA9 about the lying or my observations to you? Also I'm unclear on the rules about games. Is it that you can't discuss ongoing games that you're in, or you can't discuss any ongoing games, even if you're not in them? I ask, because Cryo is not in that game, so I'm not sure if it is against the rules or not.

[Bulbazak]

I'm wary of AA9 only in the event that Joel flips scum. All of her actions are either defending him or attacking you, both of which are not necessarily unconnected.

For AA9 and GM thing; you probably should ISO them both and look for their game together.
Her defending of Joel is similar to what Hikari is doing. So; I'm not sure why you have problem with her but not Hikari. Why is that? Can you explain to me on that?

Even if I would look at the AA9/Morning game, it probably wouldn't tell me much, as it's ongoing and I couldn't discuss what I learned anyway. As far as the Joel defense, there is a difference between AA9 and Hiraki. Hiraki just pegged Joel as a noob, but he has since admitted that he is not really paying him much attention. AA9 not only called Joel a noob, but noob town for no apparent reason. Not only that, but she has been following his lead on who to shift suspicion onto, and I have seen evidence of the chainsaw defense in her post. She's put so much effort defending Joel, that she has not scum hunted at all outside of his wagon, Cryo in particular. In fact, I'd really like to know how you've got such a strong scum read on her.

[Bulbazak]

Also, FYI; as far as scum-hunting goes, you both have done pretty much same amount.

Actually, I've gotten pretty good reads on almost everybody in the game. I still have a few nulls, but that should be clearing up before long. Maybe it might not look like it to you, but I've gotten a lot done as far as scum hunting. Both wagons have told me a lot, and the one thing that I've seen with AA9 is that she is solely defending Joel, rather than question anyone else. And when she does question someone, it's either about Joel or whether they think Goodmorning is scum. From what I've seen, I doubt that she has any reads on anyone besides those on Joel's wagon, and if so, I'd like to hear them. In fact, I may just want to hear her reads regardless.

[Bulbazak]

You've got to be kidding me... I hate it when scum make it this easy...

Om: Misrepping, backpeddelling, and now deflecting. Morning, I'd join you, but I'd like to get his partners first.

Joel, I am not voting you at the moment, although that can be arranged if you really want. I kinda want to find out what's going to happen with Cryo.

As for Hiraki, I have my own suspicions about him, but I don't feel that it is worth going into right now. As I mentioned before, I don't think he's scum, but I'm also very wary of him. I think following him on the SK wagon would be a bad move.

[Bulbazak]

And why the hell you think that i am scummate with Jole, Have you given a thought that if we are scum mates and we are making it too obvious about this, your current reasoning to link me with Joel is looking scummy. And why are you even defending Cryo, he is capable enough to scare a noob on his own..

Unvote

VOTE: Bulbazak

Um...What? So you're saying that if you ARE scum together, and idiot scum at that, that I am scummy for figuring it out? How does that work again? Also, more chainsaw defending.

[Bulbazak]

Defending is not scummy.. That's what you need to do when scummy people trying to eliminate the town
And can please stop hanging to a pointless topic and get to real scum hunting..
I have given you my reasons for defending Joel and why i read him as town. and how i don't like Cryo took Joel for granted. and why i see GM as scummy.

What exactly you have done, otherthan chainsaw defending Cryo.. See you're doing the same thing what i am doing but you're the one who has issues with what they do.... so you could be scum not me... becuz i am not looking for reasons to call someone scum..i am pointing to the facts.

Do you even know what a chainsaw defense is? It's when scum attack the people on their partner's wagon or pressuring their partner. And what you have been doing is blatantly attacking those pressuring Joel. And no, this is not a pointless topic. Putting pressure on those you think are scum is not pointless. Quit floundering on trying to make other people look scummy, because really, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

Also...

Vote Joelsdaman1

If scum want to attack me for it anyway, might as well make it official. Plus, I just want to move on to putting pressure on scum #3. I'll be over there if you need me...

[Bulbazak]

Wait... Why is there a message from Chamber, yet Chamber is not interacting at all this game? I'd like an explanation if at all possible.

Cryo is a town read in light of the Joel flip. I'm confused about AA9 as well, as I thought for sure she was scum. I would like to see Konowa's and Jason's take on the game thus far, as both of those are my 2 highest scumspects.

Dr. Black was on both wagons. He sat on mine as it gained momentum, but never discussed it at all, as if to ride it on an RVS vote. His reasons for voting Joel did not seem very strong, and it seemed like he was just trying to blend in with the town using sheeped reasoning. He then disappeared for the rest of the day.

I was suspicious of Om near the end of d1. There are little things here and there that struck me as strange, but I found the interaction between him and SK to be what tipped him from null to scum. I don't like how he deflected questions when the conversation started to get too hot for him. I also don't like the fact that he ignores discussions, and asserts that by doing so he's "conceding" his point. I also didn't like the backpedaling he did when SK questioned him on some of his motives. I originally thought the AA9 town read was odd, as he was the only one that openly expressed it. However, he never adequately explained it. He jumped into the middle of the Joel wagon and was able to stay inconspicuous throughout the game. Looking back on it, it makes sense as a bussing attempt, and him calling AA9 town gives him town cred the next day.

I would also like to hear from PeregrineV, as he never returned to comment on the game.

Also, Hiraki, why did you defend Joel like you did? Everyone else had a clear stance one way or another, but you were wishy washy on the subject. At the end of the day, you were not sure whether he was scum or not.

[Bulbazak]

As far as I can tell, the votes are because Joel ignored my fos. I have no idea why he did that, although I gave my best guess when asked at the time. I can see why people think those interactions are scummy, as I was thinking much the same thing as I reread the game. Joel made a point of putting me in the town position above all, which doesn't make much sense to me. It may end up being the best move he made d1, especially since the second main scumspect is now dead.

Now a question for you, did you find Om's responses to you at all strange?

[Bulbazak]

k guys

let's look at the holy grail list

So that leaves chamber (prob. scum), DansAdvent (hasn't posted enough), Gorgon (null atm),

joel (null atm after reading some more. honestly not sure how to tell his alignment. that'd seriously be the only justification for a d1 lynch)

, peregrine (yeah null)

one of these or SK/Jason now

need to die

Hiraki, why do you

still

want to kill chamber? He's confirmed town!

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why do you continue to ask me the same useless questions?

Actually, I believe this is the first time I've ever questioned you about it. I largely ignored it d1, but at this point, you constantly saying the IC is scum is beyond belief. I have no desire to get a wagon going on you, since I do not believe you are scum, but the question still stands as it is valid.

[Bulbazak]

And yet I feel as if nothing has come out of it.

@PeregrineV: Why Konowa and not one of the other null/town reads?

[Bulbazak]

While we're waiting, I want to know why everyone had such a strong town read on Om, because personally I don't see it. I look forward to hearing from Jason when he's finished.

[Bulbazak]

I largely ignored Hiraki's posts on Chamber, because I thought Cryo was handling the matter well and that it would be out of his system d1. I did have a hard time following Hiraki's responses to Cryo though, but there were bigger fish to fry, and I didn't think he was scum. It does bother me that he's kept on this, and I would like a straight answer from him for once in this game.

You mean town read?
She jumped in front of the wagon to maker her point about Joel from her own experience by saying

''he looks noob town as I was in similar position''

. She has enough experience to know how to keep distance from Joel if he was indeed her partner. I don't particularly agree with it and have Joel pegged as scum & taking strong stance is usually indicative of good town motives. By that accord; she is likely town then scum.
Also, FYI; as far as scum-hunting goes, you both have done pretty much same amount. Same as most of the players atm as far as I can see, so that's not exactly a argument indicative of alingment.

How is this scummy by any working?

Even working off flips this is him referencing Joel as scum and AA9 as town (and look she is)

I don't like this at all. The problem was that Om was positive that AA9 was town when no one else was. The reasons he provided did not stand up to scrutiny, as Morning demonstrated in her response to him. It feels like he knows she is town and Joel is scum, and is using that knowledge to try to gain town cred once that flip happens. Jason's post shows the same tendency. He makes sure to add the fact that AA9 flipped town in parentheses, as if to say, "Hey, my slot called it right. See. Town.". Again, he's going for the town cred. Not only this, but there was also that entire Om/SK interaction that screams scum to me.

Vote JasonWazza

[Bulbazak]

@Hiraki: What if I'm just really well read?

What's your read on Gorgon?

I've liked his posts so far, especially the back and forth between him and myself, so I have a pretty strong town read on him.

[Bulbazak]

goodmorning is probably the remaining scum.

Why?

[Bulbazak]

Misrepping much? 215 was in response to Joel's gambit with Cryo. She was explaining why it was a bad idea, since neither Joel or AA9 seemed to be able to figure it out. Plus, I've played with Morning-scum, and this is not her scum play. She is actively discussing and analyzing. You, however, are trying to turn minor nothings into major cases, and that's just plain scummy.

[Bulbazak]

I thought bulb was the counter wagon.

Honestly seems to much of a policy lynch for me.

If that is the case, why are you still voting me?

[Bulbazak]

Because of DB not posting? If that's the case, then I'd agree, but I see merit in the case against Konowa.

[Bulbazak]

Peregrine, as informative as that all is, what is your personal take on Joel's "reads"? Besides stating that you think Cryo is town, you haven't really said anything else about anyone else on that list. Which reads do you think were correct or insincere and why?

[Bulbazak]

Maybe later Cryo, I still like Jason-scum for today's lynch.

[Bulbazak]

Going to toss out a few quick questions before I collapse in bed.

Hiraki: How long did you work on that wall again? Because it's essentially filled with a whole lot of nothing. Furthermore, where is SK on your list? For having such a strong scum read on her for most of the game, I find it surprising that you don't mention her at all. Come to think of it, why did you find her so scummy in the first place?

Peregrine: If you wanted to have more of a conversation with SK, then why didn't you start it? As town, I'd think it'd be best to take the initiative in these sorts of things. All you had to do was ask her a question or two, so why didn't you?

CryoNudist: Do you think Jason is scum, and if not, who do you think would be Konowa's scum partner?

[Bulbazak]

@Konowa: NKing a top scumread of almost every player in the game would be the stupidest possible thing. Why would I bother doing it for the sake of this argument? If I were Scum, I could easily have gotten her mislynched today and used the same argument tomorrow against the Om/Jason slot.

I feel like this is stupid, because it doesn’t take into the account that with the Night people might have reread and changed their minds, or some other means of Angel possibly being cleared. I feel as if NK analysis is lacking in today’s sitemeta. Scum obviously didn’t kill the most Town player, nor do I think that they were PR hunting. I think the kill, with your opening arguments makes the most sense.

Except you're forgetting how scummy everyone else found AA9. I was convinced she was scum due to the perceived chainsaw defending alone. Morning would have had no problem getting her mislynched if she was scum. What you leave out is the inverse of your theory. Jason-scum gains town cred when AA9 was NK, something that he has since pushed for, and is therefore part of the reason why I think he is scum.

I find that when listing reads, scum often put thier buddies either in town (to protect from attack)/scum (to get credit for bussing) or null (so there is no connections).

So you just said that scum list their buddies as town, scum, or neutral? Of course they do. Those are the only options!

Peregrine: If you wanted to have more of a conversation with SK, then why didn't you start it? As town, I'd think it'd be best to take the initiative in these sorts of things. All you had to do was ask her a question or two, so why didn't you?

Pretty sure I did start a conversation here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4712583

That started with the question "what did you think of post 416?"

That said, do you believe nothing can be gained from Joels post?

Your "conversation starter" was before you said you wanted to have a conversation with SK, and therefore has no bearing on my question. The point was that when you explained your breakdown of the Joel reads, you said you wanted to have a conversation with SK, yet you never question her to start said conversation. That would have been something to do in that same post and would have helped in the scumhunting, yet you didn't do it. I wanted to know why.

As for Joel's post, I think it is dangerous to try to judge allegiances from a flipped scum's reads by themselves. You are more likely to tunnel down the wrong train of thought. However, as secondary evidence in an already established case, they can be quite useful.

Cryo, I'm working on getting you that case, but it may be a little while.

[Bulbazak]

Okay...The abridged abridged version of the case, since bad things happen every time I type out another version:

1.) Om implied several people were scummy without putting any pressure on them or taking a definitive stance on them, something he wrongly criticized Gorgon for earlier in d1. He implied that Gorgon was scummy for not putting Joel at L-1 early in d1. He implied that Morning was scummy for pressuring AA9. He thought that Hiraki was acting scummy, even though he stated that he did not think he was scum, and then followed that up by saying that he could be in a scum team with me, therefore implying I was scum as well. Finally, at the start of his conversation with SK, he implied that she was scummy as well.

2.) Om said that AA9 was town BECAUSE Joel was scum. There are 2 things wrong with this. First, his absolute certainty that Joel was scum. There was no if here. Second, his reason for AA9 being town didn't track, as Morning refuted it immediately. Most everyone else thought that AA9 was scum partners with Joel, including myself, who thought I saw evidence of chainsaw defending in AA9's posts. Konowa is wrong in his assertion that AA9's flip only benefited Morning's argument against Om/Jason, as the flip would have given credence to Om's post calling AA9 town and Joel scum, thus giving him town cred. This is further supported by Jason going out of his way to highlight the fact that AA9 did indeed flip town, again as a way to gain town cred.

3.) Om and Jason's votes have been opportunistic. Om was the fourth vote on the Joel wagon for sheeped reasons. Likewise, Jason was the fourth vote on my wagon for a bad reason as well (He voted me because I was asking Hiraki questions.). Jason's vote reads as opportunistic on a growing wagon, much like Om's reads as a bussing attempt on an idiot scum partner.

4.) As I've mentioned before, I found Om's exchange with SK horribly scummy bad. Within a few short posts, he misrepped SK in an attempt to make her look scummy, he backpedaled when she pressured him about his reasoning, and finally he deflected the course of questioning by changing the subject when SK continued to apply pressure. It was at this point that my scum read on Om began.

5.) This point was not part of my original case, but I feel as I should make it now, since it is both recent and relevant. Jason recently refused to answer one of Konowa's questions. A desire to hamper discussion is a major scum tell for me, and discussion is furthered by questions. Jason's refusal to contribute to discussion just screams scum.

If you need me to elaborate on any point, or to make a longer post featuring all the specifics of these points, please let me know. I think this will do for now.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, before I go to bed, I'm going to answer another question posed to me.

Bulb, read on Hiraki that isn't you being wary of him.

Hiraki is one of those reads that is currently in flux for me. I felt I had him pegged d1, but current events are making me doubt my initial read. I would hope that as town that he would be asking questions that were more relevant and aiding in the scum hunting more. I've honestly seen hardly anything of benefit from his posts. However, I'm still reluctant to think of him as scum. As such, I'm continuing to cling to my initial read, which I've kept close to my chest for certain reasons. Now, however, it's probably best to say why I was wary.

I believe Hiraki is a neutral party, whether jester, lyncher, or something else, I am not certain. For this reason, I did not want to lynch him or SK, who he seemed to be going after with a vengeance, even though he never gave a reason. I'll probably need a flip from one of my 2 main scumspects or evidence to the contrary before I change my view on him.

For now, I still think it's best to leave him be. I'm going to continue to keep an eye on him, and I'll reevaluate him on d3.

[Bulbazak]

Your "conversation starter" was before you said you wanted to have a conversation with SK, and therefore has no bearing on my question. The point was that when you explained your breakdown of the Joel reads, you said you wanted to have a conversation with SK, yet you never question her to start said conversation. That would have been something to do in that same post and would have helped in the scumhunting, yet you didn't do it. I wanted to know why.

This confuses me.
I started a conversation before I said I wanted to start a conversation?
I think I said I wanted to start a conversation with her in response to some question about why was I asking her. Then I think I answered that in 522.
If your asking me way I didn't start a conversation with her before starting a conversation with her...then I don't know.

Here's what I'm talking about:

Good, since you iso'ed me, thoughts on 416.

Kerrigan I want to like, but I also want to have conversation with, then well see.

Note that you stating you wanted to have a conversation with SK came after you asking her about #416. Simply stating you wanted to have a conversation does not equal having a conversation. I would have expected you to have asked a question to start said conversation in return, especially since she had already given her opinion of #416. Yet you didn't, and I wanted to know why.

[Bulbazak]

The only thing that is making me doubt Konowa is his recent exchange with Jason, and since Jason is my largest scumspect...

[Bulbazak]

EBWOP: I meant doubt Konowa as scum.

[Bulbazak]

I'm liking Konowa as town better on a reread. I thought he might be scum because of the bad reasons for pursuing Hiraki and Morning, and for the misrepping on Morning in particular, but in light of recent events, he may sincerely believe what he says. I like his more recent posts. He's asking the right questions, and I'm reading sincere scum hunting here.

On that note, I have to ask a question of PeregrineV. Why exactly were you voting for Konowa again? You said later that you disliked his take on Hiraki and Morning, but then said you could follow his reasoning, making him a null. This makes me wonder why you're voting for him in the first place, since you never went into it, although you promised you would.

[Bulbazak]

Yep, definitely liking Konowa as town a lot more, although I still think he is wrong about Morning. His post #551 has town written all over it. Cryo, why else do you think Konowa is scum other than Dr.B being absent?

[Bulbazak]

Maybe I'm missing something, haven't reread since last post, so can you say why I'm wrong about gm, bulb?

Several things make me think she's town. She was asking questions and trying to further discussion, which is different from her scum game. Her pressure on AA9 in #74 is warranted. She then explains that vote further here. She actually explained why Joel's bet was bad for the town here and backed it up here. Her defense against AA9's brutal attack reads town. She shows suspicion of Om here and here, which shows that is not a recent development. She then defends her actions in a consistent manner here and here. Her response to you is correct. Quit glossing over it and think about what she's saying. Finally, the clincher is that I've seen her scum play in Newbie 1305, and this is not it. Check it out if you don't believe me. Morning is town. Deal with it.

[Bulbazak]

@Nacho: Can we have the deadline in the vote count please? It gets hard to do simple math when you're trying to keep track of events in multiple games.

[Bulbazak]

I gave a case in post #539. Please keep up.

[Bulbazak]

Hiraki, Om and Jason are the same slot. I'd go into this further, but I feel that I'd be wasting my time, since Hiraki has shown an unwillingness to engage or further discussion. I'm done dealing with his anti-town behavior.

[Bulbazak]

All i can say is this wagon on me is really pathetic and mostly based on Om rather then me being scum, i mean yes by all means use him as a reason to call me scum, but this is just pathetic, and i can barely defend myself against what he did being scummy.

I still think bulb is scum and think he should be our lynch today.

Please claim intent before you try to hammer me, or i will hurt people.

That's mainly because Om posted more content-wise, making it easier to develop a read, but there were a few good points on you: 1.) You continued with Om's town-cred gambit with AA9 (rather blatantly, I might add). 2.) Your vote on me was opportunistic and used bad reasoning in order for you to hop on. 3.) You have refused to answer questions and add to discussion.

If you are that concerned about the wagon, I would sincerely suggest you address the case against you and any questions that have been asked, and that you would get to scumhunting. Or you can get lynched. Your choice.

@ Hiraki and Peregrine: What the crap?!

[Bulbazak]

All i can say is this wagon on me is really pathetic and mostly based on Om rather then me being scum, i mean yes by all means use him as a reason to call me scum, but this is just pathetic, and i can barely defend myself against what he did being scummy.

I still think bulb is scum and think he should be our lynch today.

Please claim intent before you try to hammer me, or i will hurt people.

That's mainly because Om posted more content-wise, making it easier to develop a read, but there were a few good points on you:
1.) You continued with Om's town-cred gambit with AA9 (rather blatantly, I might add).

Defended =/= continued, by that time both were dead so i knew they were town/scum.

Even working off flips this is him referencing Joel as scum and AA9 as town (and look she is)

The part in parentheses is what I'm referring to. Without that, it is defending. With it, it is you going "See, Om was right about AA9. Give me town points."

3.) You have refused to answer questions and add to discussion.

Yes a question that was directed at me after i asked that person why he hadn't asked me questions and that was plain and simply who do i think are the other scum, why would i answer that for someone who deliberately avoids a possibly incriminating question?

Also no one else asked me the question so clearly no one gives an actual fuck.

Fine. Please answer the question.

[Bulbazak]

But he was right, so what is your point?

My point was that the part in parentheses was not needed and was simply there for emphasis. You were pointing out how correct Om was when he called AA9 town. Morning and I have both explained what was wrong with this. You emphasizing this fact as soon as you come in is essentially you highlighting a town action from Om. How is that not trying to win town cred?

Who do i think is scum, at least 1 of the following (2 is possible) {bulbazak, PeregrineV, goodmorning}

Please explain.

[Bulbazak]

Sure. Count this as intent, but I'll restate my intent tomorrow.

In that case, Jason, care to claim? Or would you rather drag this on and waste another day?

[Bulbazak]

I think at this point we're just waiting on Peregrine. Unless SK or Dan have anything interesting to say.

[Bulbazak]

Cryo, if Jason should flip scum, who is his partner? I'm looking at either Peregrine or Hiraki, although I need to reread both in ISO to see which is more likely. This is a question anyone else can answer as well, since we need something to pass the time.

[Bulbazak]

Besides Dr. B lurking, can anyone give me any other reason why they think Konowa is scum? I'm not seeing it, especially with his more recent interactions. I'm reading dumb town more than anything else.

[Bulbazak]

Welcome Regfan! I hope that you are a better conf. town than Chamber. I look forward to your take on the game so far.

[Bulbazak]

Thanks Regfan for the PR breakdowns. Setup speculation has never been my strong suit, and generally I tend to get screwed over by some factor I failed to anticipate whenever I play closed games. That being said, I gave my reasons for voting Jason in post #539. He is by far my strongest scum read and the only one where a mafia kill of AA9 makes sense. The only alternative is your vig. theory, which would clear Jason in my mind, but before I'd unvote, I'd want confirmation that that is indeed the case.

My thinking is thus: Vigs are either 1 or 2 shot. If 1-shot, the vig. comes forward and tells who he shot (AA9?). If 2-shot, same deal, only we aim the shot at who is most likely to be scum and hope for a win. My point is that if a vig did kill AA9, he needs to come forward, as that has been driving the scumhunting for most of the day. This would also give us another possible confirmed town, and if the vig is 2-shot, that would be confirmed during the night session.

Also, Regfan, what did you think of my theory that Hiraki may be a neutral party? Do you find it plausible, or am I just being paranoid?

Jason, you're saying that you essentially have a can't miss kill ability without the ability to kill? That would suck... Also, what does the Bored part of your role mean? I'm unsure whether it is just decoration or if there is more to your ability that you are not telling us.

[Bulbazak]

Cryo, I may have missed it, but can you tell me why you're voting for Konowa, other than the Dr. B being all lurker-like?

[Bulbazak]

That's all fine and good. But it's still extremely sketchy, especially considering Dr. B flaked early on. I was asking for a case on Konowa specifically. A lot of the Konowa cases seem to stem from him having bad reads on people, but that's not necessarily scummy. An actual case on Konowa please.

Morning, I'm not completely sold on Dan-scum atm. There are a couple other suspects that are more pressing, imo. However, I'm not moving off Jason, who's actually my biggest scum read, until I hear confirmation that there is a vig. Until then, I'm going to assume that AA9 was a mafia kill in order to give Jason town cred.

[Bulbazak]

I don't follow.

[Bulbazak]

I think the claim is awfully convenient. Dan said not to vote an unconfirmed PR unless the scum read was strong. Mine is. The only thing that would change my mind would be a vig. confirmation, as it would challenge the stability of the case and fill in a major piece of the puzzle. But until then, I have to assume that the confirmation is not coming, and that I not only hit scum correctly, but that scum-Jason is hiding behind a BS claim that cannot be countered with the IC to back him.

[Bulbazak]

Reg, I agree that it makes more sense that the AA9 kill was by a vig. rather than mafia. However, just because something is more likely to be true doesn't necessarily mean that it is true. Until this is confirmed by a vig., a AA9 mafia kill is still a possibility. I outlined many other reasons why I thought Om/Jason was scum, but the clincher for me was how their being scum made the NK make sense, and until that is entirely disproven, I will stand strong in this conviction.

While Jason's claim seems too unique to make up, I must also point out how convenient it is and how easy it is to fake. He claimed a unique role that could not be double-checked, and could therefore not be countered. Reg's reason for believing the role claim is due to setup speculation, which I remind everyone that we know absolutely nothing about. Again, just because something is more likely to be true is not the same as it actually being true. Saying a backup makes sense in a setup with an IC is fine, and there are multiple backup roles that could fill that void. However, Jason claims a universal backup role, one entirely unique for this game and therefore uncheckable. Also, by saying he got the non-kill ability of the first PERSON who died, he essentially claimed a useless role. Essentially, he claimed a VT while still saying he was a PR, so that he could not be further scrutinized. Add in the fact that he did so when there was no need to claim, and I have no problem seeing how it could be a convenient fake claim.

And Reg, I have considered some other players. Personally I'm not a big fan of Dan or Konowa lynches. Dan's is due to the Lynch All Lurkers mindset. Do I want him to post more? Yes. Do I want to get him out of my null reads? Yes. Is he the right lynch for today? NO. Konowa is similar to Dan, but he's being waggoned on the fact that his predecessor lurked. I have actually not seen a decent case on Konowa himself, and, in fact, I've actually developed a bit of a town read on him.

That leaves Peregrine and Hiraki, both of whom I would consider lynching if push came to shove. Out of the 2, I prefer Hiraki. He's been extremely anti-town this entire game and has not been contributing to the discussion at all. As Morning knows, that's a major scum tell of mine. The only reason I've never voted him was because I thought he might be a neutral party. However, I trust Reg's read on this. Should the vig. claim or it is close to deadline, I'll likely vote Hiraki.

[Bulbazak]

Regfan, it's starting to look more and more like there was no vig. Almost everyone has posted since our call for a claim, and there has not been one yet. At this point, there's only 3 people I would believe to be the vig. should they claim. Anyone else that does so is fake claiming, and should be lynched.

Your point on Dan is bad. When scum point out lurkers in lists of reads, especially noob scum, they are subtly calling them scum and are hoping for a mislynch. Saying this is proof that Dan is partners with Joel is absurd. If anything, it proves the exact opposite. The argument against Dan (Hydras should post more. If a hydra does not post as much, they're scum) is one based on a fallacy similar to BoP. This is further compounded by a Gambler's Fallacy that assumes that just because Dan is a hydra made up of 2 players, that they should be more active. This is not the case. Dan is as likely to be absent as any other player, it's just that the hydra is made up of 2 people with lives, rather than 1. My point is that if we are to lynch Dan, and to a certain extent, Konowa, let's do so on reasons other than "OMG LURKER MUST KILL".

Jason, the "no need to do so" was originally stated by Regfan. I was just backing up his reasoning. The point was that he had introduced a reasonable defense for you and anticipated that your wagon would naturally dissolve. If Peregrine would have hammered at that point, and you would have flipped town, we would have been looking at him. In fact, it was not farfetched to believe that at least one person would have unvoted at that point, just so that we could prevent a premature hammer and further discuss the possible implications of what Regfan brought up. However, you didn't allow that, as you quickly claimed before anyone had the chance to unvote. So don't tell me that my point was a load of bull crap.

I'm seeing Hiraki going into full panic mode at this point. Reg's pressuring of Hiraki illuminated a number of inconsistencies. What's worse was the horrible backpeddaling that followed. Since then, he's attacked several of his accusers. At this point, I think he's flinging dirt and hoping something will stick. Cryo was right in pointing out the scummy post of Hiraki's, and it wasn't about his talking about Joel's posts. It was the inconsistency in his statement concerning his read on Joel. I dislike how quickly Jason jumped on Cryo and accused him of misrepping. I'm still waiting on the vig. claim, but I would not be surprised at a Hiraki-Jason scumteam.

[Bulbazak]

Regfan, it's starting to look more and more like there was no vig. Almost everyone has posted since our call for a claim, and there has not been one yet. At this point, there's only 3 people I would believe to be the vig. should they claim. Anyone else that does so is fake claiming, and should be lynched.

Your point on Dan is bad. When scum point out lurkers in lists of reads, especially noob scum, they are subtly calling them scum and are hoping for a mislynch. Saying this is proof that Dan is partners with Joel is absurd. If anything, it proves the exact opposite. The argument against Dan (Hydras should post more. If a hydra does not post as much, they're scum) is one based on a fallacy similar to BoP. This is further compounded by a Gambler's Fallacy that assumes that just because Dan is a hydra made up of 2 players, that they should be more active. This is not the case. Dan is as likely to be absent as any other player, it's just that the hydra is made up of 2 people with lives, rather than 1. My point is that if we are to lynch Dan, and to a certain extent, Konowa, let's do so on reasons other than "OMG LURKER MUST KILL".

It's possible the vig isn't limited (ie. Full vig) and that's why they're not claiming, also possible there's a SK. We'll know tomorrow more than likely based on the number of deaths and there's really no support for Jason anymore so it's about time you hang it up and put him to the side to deal with tomorrow. My biggest point on Dan on why I think they're potentially mafia is based on their interactions with Joel, I don't see how that is "bad", Joel never reacted to their vote on him while reacting to everything else that happened to him. That's really my biggest issue with them and the fact I have no real content to change my mind on means that it's always going to be a scum-read due to that. And lurking *is* a scum-tell, I speak from about 120ish games of forum mafia across a few sites and maybe 2000?+ at EM experience, it's something that scum DO more often than town. A lot of it is playerstyle indicative yes, you'll find some people always lurk as town and as scum so them lurking might be a null-tell but I don't think that's the case with Dan thus I think his lack of real content in the thread for most of the game is a scum-tell.

Wouldn't a full vig. be potentially game breaking? There's a reason why they tend to have limited shots. Also, a SK kill of AA9 makes as much sense as a mafia kill, according to your logic. Why would a SK want to kill an easy mislynch for d2?

As for Joel ignoring Dan's vote, I'm actually not that surprised. Joel missed my fos on him until someone pointed it out. It would not be a stretch to imagine that he missed Dan's vote as well, especially since Dan didn't include his reasons for doing so.

Since then, he's attacked several of his accusers.

Quotes thanks because this is false

Let the quote parade begin:

Out of the 2, I prefer Hiraki. He's been extremely anti-town this entire game and has not been contributing to the discussion at all.

Yet, I have. You just think I'm annoying is the real translation of this statement.

The only reason I've never voted him was because I thought he might be a neutral party. However, I trust Reg's read on this.

You've switched your read on me multiple times. You're looking for a wagon and then when it disappears, so does your read on me. Please don't try to justify it with Reg's read.

You first changed your read on me when Konowa voted me (From neutral to slightly scummish)

Now, it's scum when the confirmed town hops on?

Give me a break.

^scum post

^thanks for proving my point

newbhydra makes newb mistake

let's move onto bulba, thanks

I believe those are attacks on Cryo, Dan, and myself.

It was the inconsistency in his statement concerning his read on Joel. I dislike how quickly Jason jumped on Cryo and accused him of misrepping.

are you fucking serious

do i need to put this in baby words where i quote the two posts so you see what he says?

he a fucking town read on me. you don't have to be daft to see it.

Oh I appreciate the defense, don't get me wrong.

It was more of a general statement, not an attack.

>appreciate the defense

instead of saying something negative

but wait bulba says

this is literally the only time he references you

but wait hiraki says

he's had a bandwagon and i'm defending him because he's (well I thought) not scum

maybe he should've given me some thanks though so bulba would be a bit happier with seeing real concrete stuff

fun fact: Joel only called two people town and those were bulba and om

yet joel is nubscum

wagonwagonwagonwagon

Hold that thought.

Like I said before, I have no grievances if you lynch me based on Joel's ideals.

I called a scumzorz town and went waaaay too hard on it like I usually do and this gambit failed.

However, the Joel claim is false because the initial viewer (i.e. cyro--what a surprise) didn't realize that Joel doesn't directly mention a lot of people but indirectly mentions them by being the next post.

EX: ISO 15, 16, literally every post in his ISO without quote tags.

Scumzorz huh? You didn't call Joel town all day d1. You actually flopped back and forth between town and null, with an indication that you thought he was slightly scummy on the side for good measure. Mostly you were saying "Noobzorz" and hoping it stuck. As town, I'd expect you'd look at the result and go "well, I called that one wrong" or talk about how Joel was noob scum, showing that your opinion of him really hasn't changed in regard to his play. Instead you're saying "Joel was scumzorz", or translated for those who don't speak Hiraki gibberish: "Joel was the scummiest scum to ever set foot in scumville." You don't get to make that type of play read posthumously.

Also, what gambit was that? Are you trying to imply NOW that you had some sort of secret scum catching strategy by calling Joel a noob? I'm sorry. It doesn't work that way. You don't get to make something up spur of the moment, call it a gambit posthumously, and hope that the town bites.

Unvote

Vote Hiraki

Jason can wait until later. I'd rather take out the stupidly cocky scum. I still want that vig. claim though.

[Bulbazak]

I believe those are attacks on Cryo, Dan, and myself.

You need to specify then because there's a difference between an attack and a cheeky jesture.

Not to mention, those were all after the aforementioned post so gj there bud. (oh wait, that's an attack though..hmm...er...should I rephrase this now?!?!?)

Actually, they were before. Please go back and read the game.

That's why I've continually said "

I'm OK if you lynch me because I rode on Jason too hard. I really thought he was scum.

"

Scumslip?

[Bulbazak]

You never asked me to say how it was scummy. Those posts were in response to your attempt to discredit my observation that you had attacked several of your attackers. You responded with "Quotes or it didn't happen." I gave you quotes. You've since tried to dismiss it as you being cheeky. I'm not buying it.

[Bulbazak]

For your attack on me, your were throwing as much dirt as you could on me and hoping something stuck. It was successfully refuted by Regfan. Then with Cryo, you just sought to discredit their arguments, instead of trying to disprove them. Calling them "newb hydra" leads to further discredit them, and is an attack on their person, which is scummy.

[Bulbazak]

Jason, Peregrine's not voting you.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. I actually went back over Jason's claim, and considering -stuff- I believe it.

What's this "stuff" you speak of?

Not sure what to feel about Hiraki. But I think I'll...

Unvote

I kinda want to hear from SK's replacement. I'll decide what to do after that.

[Bulbazak]

ADG?

[Bulbazak]

Put what in what now?

[Bulbazak]

I think he's asking about the ability name. Even VTs have an individualized ability related to their character, even if it doesn't do anything.

[Bulbazak]

Are you saying that they're in scum PMs?

[Bulbazak]

Looked back over everything. Although I was initially skeptical about Dan's claim about being the Geico Gecko, what follows checks out. I'm starting to think this island is stranger than I originally thought. Konowa looks to have panicked over two averted mislynches, which doesn't sit well with me. There was nothing wrong with what Cryo was asking.

Vote Konowa

I'm seeing anxious scum, and I think Konowa just overplayed his hand. I also still don't trust Jason's claim, but that should be cleared up soon.

[Bulbazak]

Except we would then be able to judge whether it was faked or not, especially since it was an impromptu line of questioning. This could have cleared Dan, and it was at this point that you began to protest. Dan's flavor ability checks out, especially since he included it in his original claim (ADG). Both his and Hiraki's responses read as genuine, which was what Cryo was looking for, the genuineness of the responses. It is disturbing that you tried to derail that. Your wanting to claim also doesn't sit right with me. Overall, we should be wanting to avoid mislynches, but it didn't appear as if that was the purpose of your series of posts.

[Bulbazak]

Gut says it's fake.

[Bulbazak]

Konowa, here's why I don't believe your claim. The theme for this game is America. Eric Smith: American. GEICO: American company. Mother Teresa: Indian, AKA not American.

I hope you like rope.

Also, it should be noted that Jason got his own role name wrong. It's Tom Brady, not Tom Bardy, and you're right, he is a Patriot, of the quarterback variety. Nice play on words. I'll see you hanging tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

I did the double check on the Geico Gecko. The company GEICO is actually American. I did have my doubts about a fictional character, but the way that Dan phrased it makes me want to believe it for now.

And if we're just stating flavor names (heh...), I'm Flavor Flav.

[Bulbazak]

Regfan, you just lynced Dan. There's no point in discussing an alternative...

[Bulbazak]

Well, I've already given my role name, but might as well do it again...

I'm Flavor Flav, VT.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Peregrine V

Will explain later...

[Bulbazak]

Wait... We have 3 confirmed town PRs, no second NK n2, and if Jason is who he says he is, there is no vig...

Yeah, claim is still bull.

Unvote

Vote JasonWazza

This is what happens when my head is not in the game...

[Bulbazak]

Regfan kept on insisting there must have been one yesterday. That's why he didn't want to vote Jason. I called bull then, but I had to compromise, so I'm back to calling bull.

[Bulbazak]

Part of me wants to vote Tracey on principle, but she's not scum, so that'd be stupid.

Want Reg's imput on Jason. Do you still believe his claim is legitimate and that there's a vig?

[Bulbazak]

I love how bulb's only reason to vote me is that my claim is bull yet nearly everyone else believes it, like seriously are you deliberately being stupid?

Nope, my reasons for voting you are the same as yesterday. I just don't believe your claim. Also, love the OMGUS.

[Bulbazak]

What was? Me vs. Jason? Personally, I'm getting tired of this nonsense...

[Bulbazak]

That was the only reason you gave for your vote. What would you call it?

[Bulbazak]

My case on you has been up since d2, the points are all there to be analyzed. Why did you feel the need to try to delegitimize my vote, while ignoring my previous question, as well as Reg's post?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulb: Why do you think there is a Vig again? Or do you still think there is one?

Reg was adamant d2 that there must have been a vig. He said that it explained AA9's death. That was his only reason why we should not vote Jason. This was why I was wanting a vig. claim yesterday. Now that we know there is no vig., Reg's current theory is SK. However, without any corroborating evidence, I still think that might be a little farfetched. Jason was the only player who would have benefited from a nk of AA9. I've explained why. Occum's Razor backs me up. It is a stretch to say that we have mafia plus a SK, while at the same time, the night information does not back that up (only 1 kill per night). Thus, I say that Jason's claim is false, and that he is scum.

And as for my extra information, I was also confused to what you wanted, so I gave you both: Hype Man - “I got a lot happening, a whole lot, and it ain’t always easy being me.” Feel free to ask me anymore questions should you want something clarified.

[Bulbazak]

Hiraki when I flip 1-shot strongman you better realization your being stupid and lunch bulb.

But wouldn't you flip "Bored Patriot" or whatever your role says, and not "1-shot strongman"? You supposedly only gained that ability, not the role itself.

And what exactly is your case on me? All I'm seeing so far is a lot of OMGUS and AtE.

[Bulbazak]

I'll wait until Reg explains this later, but I'm really not seeing the whole Gorgon thing.

[Bulbazak]

I believe Gorgon gave the ??? part for his role.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote PeregrineV

I looked up multiple DJ Spiders. None of their bios had any mention of a homeless period. I could have accepted it as a joke the first time, but you stuck by it and tried to defend it. Fact is, you got caught in a lie.

I'm seeing a pattern of opportunistic voting from Pere. On d1 he joined the wagon on me, with hardly any reason besides pressure. He sat on that vote the rest of the day, and never really interacted with Joel. Then on d2, he joined Cryo in voting for Konowa, and then pushed the DA wagon. His input really hasn't been all that helpful either.

It's either this or Jason-scum, and I'm willing to give Reg's theory one more night.

[Bulbazak]

Tracey, I took PV's claim name, put it in google, and then did some research. His claim didn't check out. Ergo, he's lying. It'd be nice if you'd do some research as well.

[Bulbazak]

My earlier vote on PV was a pressure vote. I had a weak gut read that he might be scum, and I needed to see how he would react. During that time, I double checked his ISO and went over the vote counts, which was when i came across the information I did. Admittedly, it's weak, which was why I'm not building a case based on that. However, I switched to Jason, because something Reg said reminded me about his bull claim, and honestly, I'm more confident in him flipping scum than PV.

Currently I'm voting PV, because I believe he is lying about his claim. Whether you believe it or not is of no consequence to me. I was willing to compromise on Hiraki and PV on d2, because we were drawing close to deadline, and Reg was making it clear that it was useless to pursue a Jason lynch. Both of them I thought had a chance of flipping scum. Hiraki due to his anti-town behavior, and PV mainly due to gut. Since then, I no longer believe Hiraki to be mafia, although I can't shake the gut read on PV.

As far as Gorgon, I really don't see what Cryo and Reg see as far as him being scum. I ISO'd both him and Joel, and I saw nothing that suggested a scum team. His reluctance to vote Joel is not unusual, since he didn't want to put him at L-1 early in the day, which was not strange, as many other players had the same reluctance. He has been helpful when it comes to scumhunting, and he reads genuine. I would really like to see an actual case from someone on the Gorgon wagon, because there really hasn't been one.

[Bulbazak]

That is true, but it is not my primary reason. I believed you to be scum before your bull claim, which I find as a convenient way to diffuse a wagon. PV, on the other hand, was caught lying regarding his claim, which is part of the reason why I'm voting for him.

[Bulbazak]

This game is really starting to make my head hurt...

Now, though, I'm curious why you find my role of a homeless guy to be less believable than the claim of a bottle of liquor.

How exactly do you think PV lied again? Refresh my memory.

PV claimed to be a homeless guy. He then claimed his name was DJ Spider. These 2 claims don't mesh (There was a whole big discussion about how this was a lie. Seriously, I'm surprised you both missed it.) Furthermore, I looked up the claim name, like I have everything else that has been claimed, and this one did not check out. He's lying. We've shown that he's lying. And he should be lynched.

Do you understand now?! Or do I have to read the game out loud to you? Seriously! Between you two and Jason, we have the case for illiteracy in America...

Reg, Gorgon is town. His play has been consistant, and he's been helpful in the scumhunting department. Your case revolves around the same thing as Om's, and he was a major scumread. He's been replaced by Jason, who's being spectacularly unhelpful right now. How about you get your reads straight before we end up lynching another townie.

Hiraki is making my head hurt with all the anti-town behavior.

Tracey is making me cry...

Seriously, I feel like I need help reigning in this madhouse. Can we all just lynch scum please?!

[Bulbazak]

Fair enough Gorgon. Am I the only one who's frustrated with this game?

[Bulbazak]

Reg, what makes Gorgon more likely to be scum than PV?

[Bulbazak]

How about this Cryo, you can answer my question as well.

[Bulbazak]

I do not see the case on Gorgon. I've gone over his ISO and compared it with Joel's, and it seems fairly straightforward to me. The L-1 point is bad, as others felt the same, especially SK, who was also a townread. I see a lot of scumhunting in his posts. And him being careful with what he posts is not a point against him, as I do the same thing. Simply put, I don't see anything scummy there. I feel that the last 2 scum are somewhere in the group of PV, Jason, and Hiraki, and I really want to avoid another mislynch.

[Bulbazak]

I never said there was a vig. Reg said there was a vig. I said that Jason's claim was bull. Reg now thinks there's a SK.

[Bulbazak]

Regardless of how you feel about the claim point, Tracey, PV has not been scumhunting. If you doubt this, check out his ISO. Really, this wouldn't be a problem if you had read the game.

[Bulbazak]

Seriously, are we this far gone?

I think the same thing about post #302 as I did when PV brought it up: It is useless as evidence by itself. It's better to use it as secondary evidence in order to build up a case.

I also wonder what's happened to make you switch so drastically. Furthermore, I'm surprised you don't have anymore town reads outside of Tracey. Has nothing happened in the entirety of this game for you develop stronger reads? Or has the entire mass claim done more harm than good and set us back to square one? Maybe this just means that you're lost when it comes to this game as well, which means I'm not the only one. Still... Why Jason? Do you feel he is more likely to flip scum over someone else, to the extent that it is not worth waiting to see if Reg is right about a SK? Do you even think Reg is right in this regard?

Regardless, we need to narrow down the suspect pool.

[Bulbazak]

TBH, we think it HIGHLY likely that 1 of the 2 of you is scum.

Who is likely to be the other?

[Bulbazak]

I never said Jason was town, but Reg keeps pushing that there has to be a SK. I doubt this, but I was willing to give it one more night if we could find the other scum. Therefore, I switched my vote to you.

As for Cryo, just because I believe him to be town does not mean I have to agree with everything he says.

[Bulbazak]

If so, I'd like to know. I never heard a good reason yesterday or today for my wagon.

Also PV, I'd like to know your reads, as I don't believe you've ever given a definitive stance on who you think is scum.

P-Edit: I never said it did. I said it was a convenient claim that did absolutely nothing, and diffused his wagon. Reg is adamant that the claim is legit, because a backup seems like a role that Nacho would include in a setup with a strongman and an IC.

[Bulbazak]

Morning, what don't you like about Gorgon's posts?

[Bulbazak]

You ARE reading this game right?

[Bulbazak]

Personally Cryo, this game has left me a little confused atm. I still believe Jason to be scum, but I am unsure about your sudden switch to him. Do you believe Reg is right when it comes to the possibility of a SK? And if we are to consider this, what makes Jason the primary lynch for today over any other suspect, PV for example?

[Bulbazak]

You never answered my previous question. If Jason is scum, who is the other one?

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, I noticed that Morning wasn't giving off the strong town vibes like she was at the beginning of the game. Then again, this game has just gotten very confusing lately, so I don't know what to think. I'll probably reevaluate during the night.

[Bulbazak]

PV, when it comes to voting trends and reasons, I can say the same thing about you (and I believe I have). What exactly do you not like about the way I've voted? And while these reads are nice and all, I was honestly expecting more, since you had taken your sweet time posting them.

[Bulbazak]

since you had taken your sweet time posting them

A whole day?

3 days actually. You said you'd do a reads list on Friday at 2:20. You gave us reads on Monday at 2:20. Honestly, I was expecting more after all that time.

I'm feeling a connection here, but one which you seem to try to make but never quite do so.
So, if you believe what you've been saying for the past 2 days but keep "holding off until tomorrow", then I want to see you back up your "Jason is scum" non-push you've been softpedaling.

I see your record of my voting, and if you'll note, I explained my reasons and defended them every single time. Can you say the same?

As for the whole Jason thing, I've answered you every single time you've asked. Reg has been adamant that there has to be a SK. I'm willing to give him one more night if it will shoot his theory down and we can catch the other scum to boot. Truth be told, I'm tired and this game has really done a number on me. So I have to ask you, why do you feel it is important to emphasize this point, especially since I've repeatedly told you the same thing every time you've asked? Can we find the other scum please?

[Bulbazak]

As for the whole Jason thing, I've answered you every single time you've asked. Reg has been adamant that there has to be a SK. I'm willing to give him one more night if it will shoot his theory down and we can catch the other scum to boot. Truth be told, I'm tired and this game has really done a number on me. So I have to ask you, why do you feel it is important to emphasize this point, especially since I've repeatedly told you the same thing every time you've asked? Can we find the other scum please?

Because I still don't get it, and since I think Jason is scum, your stance of "Jason is scum, but we'll get to him later" doesn't make sense.
If you think he's scum, lynch him. If you think he's not, they why are you calling him scum?

Not sure what Reg's SK speculation has to do with anything.

For the record, I have no reason to believe in an SK, as they are usually indicated by an additional death. For there to be one here, that means on two separate nights a kill a was blocked. While certainly possible, it's just frankly not very believable.

Because I was trying to give Reg's theories the benefit of the doubt, him being the IC and all. He felt the one kill n2 was explained by both targeting the doc. Personally, I doubt this, but until recently, I've had trouble drumming up the support for a Jason lynch, therefore I thought it best to give Reg's theory one more night, and in the meantime look for the other scum. I'll probably switch back to Jason now that there seems to be support for his lynch, but I'm troubled about the sudden switch toward Jason, and I also want to wait to hear from Reg before preceeding.

[Bulbazak]

Hey Pere, it's because he doesn't want the instant backlash when i flip town and you all lynch bulb because he has been obv scum all this time.

Seeing too much AtE here. Screw it. Reg, you can chip in when you get back.

Unvote

Vote JasonWazza

[Bulbazak]

Gorgon, what is your read on Jason?

[Bulbazak]

PV: Hammer Jason already....

Are we sure we can't get a Cryo wagon going?

This sounds like a scum post!

Joel/Cryo interaction proves he's not scum, much like Joel/SK interaction proves you are not scum. Seriously, read the freaking game!

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I almost forgot:

I think the same thing about post #302 as I did when PV brought it up:

It is useless as evidence by itself.

It's better to use it as secondary evidence in order to build up a case.

Why is it useless?

Scum read lists are filled with WIFOM. By their very nature they are faked. Therefore, using that as a basis to call someone else scum is horribad and therefore useless. However, as secondary evidence in an already established case, it can be quite telling.

The fact of the matter is that we have no idea why Joel called Om and myself town and everyone else on the wagon scum (Reminder: the reads were for those on his wagon only). Using that as the only basis to call someone scum is just bad scumhunting, although I get the sense that that doesn't bother you.

PV: Hammer Jason already....

Are we sure we can't get a Cryo wagon going?

This sounds like a scum post!

Joel/Cryo interaction proves he's not scum, much like Joel/SK interaction proves you are not scum. Seriously, read the freaking game!

Bull shit.

Interactions prove nothing. Interactions may be good if you already have a case for someone being town. But they shouldn't be the only thing. Cryo seems scummy. No interactions can "confirm" anyone as anything.

Translation: "I am going to scumhunt by disregarding the very fundamentals of scumhunting."

Okay... Jason is scum, Tracey is town VI, and the other confirmed townies are making me want to cry. Can we just move on now and lynch Jason-scum?

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, except you really haven't been of much use, period. And if you want to make a case on me, you're welcome to do it. I'll refute any straws your scum brain can grasp at. Fact of the matter is that there has never been a good case on me. But nice last minute AtE.

[Bulbazak]

Got anything better? Seriously, this is the last chance you have to make a case. I'd assume that if you are 99% sure that I'm scum that you'd have some pretty compelling reasons.

[Bulbazak]

So... Using interactions to say people are town is okay, but propose the idea that interactions point to someone being scum... OH NOOOO THAT'S IMPOOOOSSIBLE.

Read lists from scum are not interactions, they are a crap ton of WIFOM as has repeatedly been said. Single posts ARE NOT interactions! Interactions are the way two players speak and deal with each other, specifically the back-and-forths. Ergo, in order for there to be an interaction, two people must...wait for it...INTERACT! How scum interact with other players can be telling, as this is where they can accidentally let something slip. That is why it forms the basis of scumhunting.

Seriously, are you always this bad?!

Also, still waiting for your case on me Jason. Tick tock...

[Bulbazak]

I did think Bulb is town and kind of still do but his reaction towards Jasons post-hammer comments has me second guessing - the fact that in this post he's more concerned with stating there's no case on him yet then reacting to the fact that we just mslynched is really weird (I'm leaning towards thinking it's just due to frustration of realizing that a town player was the one that was FoS'ing / pushing on you for shit and almost non-existent reasons).

I do want to address this real quick before I continue. I always get paranoid about a lynch during twilight. As such, I was giving Jason the opportunity that he should have been taking as town (giving final reads/thoughts). However, he continued to act anti-town until the end, which was making me feel good about the lynch...until the flip.

As far as an SK, while part of me still wants to give Reg the benefit of the doubt, Occam's Razor says otherwise. If we are to see something, it will probably happen tonight. Until then, I think it's best to isolate the remainder of the scumteam.

I'm also going to throw out a lot of the claim crap from the past 2 days, as I feel that the mass claim has done more harm than good and is actually confusing me. Regardless, everyone has claimed VT, so there should be no fear of accidentally lynching a PR.

I believe Hiraki and PV to be the remaining scum, mostly due to POE. However, I'm not sure who the best one to lynch is. Therefore, I want to ask Cryo a question, as he's the only one I really trust right now to give me the answer: There has been a lot of setup spec about town PR distributions in this game, but no one has ever done the same on the mafia side. Fact of the matter is that only having 1 mafia PR would make the game too town balanced, which means we have a second one floating around out there. What do you think the odds are on a mafia role cop? I think I might have found evidence for it, but I'm not sure.

[Bulbazak]

Cryo, the reason I asked you is because you're essentially confirmed town at this point. I'm not completely sure myself about what I've found, or if there is even the possibility of a scum PR, and if so, whether it HAS to be a rolecop. I just wanted the thoughts of someone who I could trust that was more experienced at setup spec than I do.

Anyway, I think there is possible scum interaction/rolecop evidence in the following series of posts:

i have a report that he ate pizza on friday

Friday's ARE good pizza days

Who is Friday and why is he taking possession of ARE?

pepperoni

This back and forth has bothered me for awhile. It starts out with typical IC is scum and devolves into the biggest "what the crap?" moment I've experienced thus far in mafia. I even pointed out how strange it was after it happened. Now, I've done random conversations with friends before, and there's normally a line of logic that you can follow. However, this conversation has NONE that is readily apparent. It's bothered me that I cannot find that thread of logic, especially because this is a game about logic when applied to posts and actions. Simply put, this simply being random does not seem to fit with a mafia game. The best I can come up with is possible code divulging a rolecop investigation. But I also know I might be reading too much into it. That's kind of why I wanted your opinion on this. Because from my perspective, this does not fit, and it's driving me crazy.

[Bulbazak]

I'm okay with that. Like I said, I have Hiraki and PV due to POE. So going to...

Vote PeregrineV

And come back to this game hard when I don't possibly have a fever.

[Bulbazak]

Normally mafia do establish a code for a role cop to get his investigation results across. When I played scum with Maestro, the time of his first post of the day gave me the alignment information. Normally it's not this overt, but it's hard to explain those posts otherwise. Setup-wise, it does make sense for scum to have a second PR. I just picked role cop because it explained that strange exchange and it seemed plausible given our town PRs.

[Bulbazak]

Nacho, I voted for PeregrineV

Hiraki and PV cases incoming. I'm recovering from a fever.

[Bulbazak]

Are you serious? Hiraki you posted more relevant stuff early game than you have recently. It's been all fluff and anti-town ever since.

Quick Sick Case on Hiraki: His defense of Joel d1 which relied not on calling Joel town, but calling him noob, although he later added in the town read for good measure. His posts have mainly been fluff while trying to look like they're important. His cases on people are ridiculous, almost like he's trying to slip one past the town ("Did you see that? He's questioning my methods. He must be scum. Kill him!"). In essence, he's all flash and bang, but has no substance whatsoever. Definitely nothing that's helped town.

QSC on PV: He kept his distance from the Joel wagon d1, not even bothering to comment on alignment when asked. He then entered d2 using a bunch of WIFOM that is Joel's reads on his wagon (and PV misrepresented them at that). He said that he wanted to have a conversation with SK, but then never tried to initiate one. Has mainly been active lurking this game. I feel as there is more, but I'm going to have to wait until I'm well enough to find it.

I'm going to try to respond to everyone later tonight (should I need to), and if Hiraki isn't hammered by then, I'll do so myself.

[Bulbazak]

Sorry. Fell asleep last night. First chance since then I've had to get back to it. Starting to feel much better thank you.

Disagree with much of Tracey's scumhunting method. It deals less with the scumhunting fundamentals of reading and examining play, and is more in line with the Hiraki/Jason method of attack anyone you disagree with. No matter what she thinks, Hiraki's and PV's exchange WAS strange. I'm surprised I was the only one who mentioned it at all. Maybe this is just my first time encountering someone who's escaped from the mafiascum asylum. I don't know. But if I think something is odd, I find it at least worth pointing out. To not do so is to ignore a potentially vital piece of the puzzle. That being said, I do have to hand it to Tracey for that find. Saying that you confused this game for the other is somewhat hard when you had already been killed before that night took place.

Anyway, as promised...

Vote Hiraki

[Bulbazak]

Screw you Nacho! I have a very refined sense of paranoia, and I don't need you messing with it!

Don't know which two I trust the most, but I know I trust PV the least.

Vote Peregrine V

More after I eat.

[Bulbazak]

Really, PV-scum is the only thing I can see making sense. Many of my previous points still apply, but we'll stick to basics here.

1.) PV avoided taking a stance on the Joel wagon. In fact, he essentially active lurked that day. Actually, forget that day, he's active lurked all game.

2.) The next day he tried to use Joel's reads on his wagon, which, as have been pointed out multiple times, is a heap load of WIFOM. He actually didn't do any scumhunting outside of this, which tells me he wanted to give the appearance of scumhunting without actually scumhunting. Looking at the reads list now, all I see is Joel calling attention to lurkers, calling Cryo scum, and trying to buddy up to Om and myself. It was essentially a way for PV to get town on the wrong track.

3.) Forgot about this from DansAdvent:

Okay Yoda. What do you gather from the situation thus far?

Joel has played before, but is new to the site, which really has his own meta. Lack of how the game is played here makes him look scummy, and he'll most likely hang.

You had a wagon on you that got to L-2, L-1? But, I haven't confirmed that, so I expect you'll analyze your wagon and give your thoughts.

Some of the "Townspersons" in the game are new hydras, but maybe made of old players, why the others are new to the site, but not new to mafia. This makes me feel a little better about seeing the label, but not so much on the posting yet.

Saw the links but don't have time to follow up on them now.

Currently giving a + to Hiraki, because despite wall quotes his comments are relevant.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PeregrineV

I have no idea how the more experienced players missed this lovely bit of scum posting, but it's quite blatant.

Peregrine is asked to give his opinion on the game and he only provides regurgitated information and does not give an alignment-related opinion in any of his commentary besides a single tiny "+" for Hiraki's quote strip wall. The post quoted above avoids giving reads to such an extent that I thought it was purposeful when I first read it (but it clearly isn't due to the last sentence). The rest of his posts are not conductive to scumhunting either and what small questions were asked were likely to lead anywhere.

Looking back through, I saw this to be especially relevant. Why did we ignore DA's reads after he flipped town? I can see us disagreeing with some of his town reads, but he was adamant from d1 that PV was scum, and we kinda just ignored that after we lynched him.

4.) PV has been on every major wagon (except Joel's). This was what I noticed d3 before I got distracted by Jason again. It's a record of opportunism.

5.) Speaking of things I forgot about... I had a working theory on d1 that no more than 2 scum were on my wagon. I kind of got sidetracked from that because of the AA9 killing/Jason case, but it was a good working theory for finding scum. Guess what, PV was on that wagon for undisclosed reasons.

As I said before, PV-scum is the only thing that makes sense. This was why I knew it was safe to put him at L-1. Morning starting this tells me she is likely town. That leaves either Gorgon or Tracey as the partner. But, you know what, that's something we can figure out tomorrow. For now, I'd like to lynch scum.

[Bulbazak]

I was referring to what I noticed at the beginning of d3, so I didn't really extrapolate past that. He was on my wagon d1, and kinda just sat there the entire time. He was on the Konowa wagon d2, followed by the DA wagon, which I felt were the two big wagons of d2. I really wasn't paying attention to him not being on the Jason wagon when I looked at the vote counts, as I felt that Jason was scum. So PV not being on the wagon at the time didn't surprise me. However, he did say that he was willing to hammer Jason on d2. But it was more of a "If he's not lynched at the end of the week, I'll hammer" sort of thing, which kinda gave PV distance from the wagon, and which Jason even found scummy. If you want, I could look more into this, but most of the PV case was stuff that I was already thinking about or remembered. I only double checked in terms of ISOing PV only. I was double checking almost everybody, so individual ISOs was all I really had time for.

[Bulbazak]

Morning, do you think I'm right about no more than 2 scum being on my d1 wagon?

[Bulbazak]

Well, there was Joel and Cryo as well. You I count as an RVS vote, so I don't see that as serious. Joel was on my wagon until he unvoted and voted for a no lynch. Scum #1. PV was on my wagon. So, scum #2. The question is, do you think scum #3 was also on the wagon, or that I'm correct in assuming they were not.

[Bulbazak]

I'm also curious as to why Bulb addressed his question specifically to gm.

Due to a review of her ISO and her play today, I trust Morning the most and believe her to be town. I ruled her out early on wagon-wise, as her RVS vote was understandable, due to our previous game together (Newbie 1305). Her play overall has been very different from that game, where she was scum, and I can't reconcile her actions this game with a scum mindset. I can't ask you, because you were also on that wagon. Tracey I wouldn't trust with that question, regardless of her alignment, because her unwillingness to fully engage in the game would automatically make her answer suspect. PV I wouldn't ask for obvious reasons. Therefore, I asked Morning, who I trust most out of everyone.

[Bulbazak]

Are you asking me if I believe Bulb and Goody are scum, or

are you asking me if town-me would believe that

if PV was town?

Wait...What?

[Bulbazak]

Where did I say that I believed they were the scum team? In fact, I specifically avoided commenting on my read of them.

Fine. What are your reads?

[Bulbazak]

All I see is you avoiding giving reads on people. At the very least, you should trust some more than others. So if you can't give adequate reads, at least give us a list ranked from those you trust the most to those you trust the least.

[Bulbazak]

All I see is you avoiding giving reads on people. At the very least, you should trust some more than others. So if you can't give adequate reads, at least give us a list ranked from those you trust the most to those you trust the least.

I don't want to, though.

Why not? It's Lylo. There's no point in really hiding things like that anymore. Point is, if we get this wrong, we lose. So knowing where people stand can be very useful.

P-edit: Hopefully we're right about this. If so, I'm going to review some ISOs and hope I'm around for tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

I'm just torn because of the Joel/SK interaction. Part of me still says that slot is town because of it. But then another part says something is just not right with Tracey's play since replacing in, and her posts today just don't feel right. That's why I said I'm going to have to go through the entire ISO. Probably will do a Joel/PV/SK/Tracey ISO combo and see what I think after that.

[Bulbazak]

You just ninja'd me Gorgon.

[Bulbazak]

That post is just bad. If you truly believed PV to be town, then why didn't you try to stop his lynch, since to you, that'd be a potential mislynch? And if you believed me to be scum, why didn't you vote me? I seriously see nothing good here. Also, if I was scum, and PV was town, I'd be doing some major celebrating here, since the game would already be won. I don't see any of that, do you?

[Bulbazak]

You do remember that whole mass claim business, right? Also, I highly doubt a third party right now. What makes you think that might be the case?

[Bulbazak]

No

[Bulbazak]

I still can't believe that Gorgon was the last scum. Crap, I had him at the beginning of d1 too.

Also, I figured out during the night phase why AA9 died. She PR slipped. Badly, I might add. Can't believe I missed that...

[Bulbazak]

OH SO YOU MEAN IT WASN'T SO I COULD DO SOME SHITTY FIGHT WITH YOU? HOLY FUCK

I love you too, Jason. Simmer down.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I referred to some of Dan's old posts during my final push against PV. I think the problem was that I disagreed with Reg, so I disregarded his read on you.

[Bulbazak]

Are you kidding? Joel was on SK just as hard as he was on Cryo. A simple ISO told you that. That was the whole reason why I was convinced you were scum. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I was killed during the night.

[Bulbazak]

HD, quit stalking me...

[Bulbazak]

Premature stalking? Then again, Klick and Fuzzy are starting to pop up in a lot more of my games, so...

[Bulbazak]

There's a dead QT?

[Bulbazak]

Also, when Nacho gets back, I'd like to know what Joel said/did to get himself modkilled.

[Bulbazak]

Just going to state for the record: Mass claim was a horrible move. It just ended up confusing things more. My reads were just having a harder time clicking after that, and everything became a muddled mess. Do you know how much quicker we could have gotten PV if it wasn't for that? That move has essentially turned me off to unnecessary mass claims (You can check out True Love Mafia for further evidence of this.).

[Bulbazak]

Actually, he always paired Cryo and SK together. He stopped when his argument with Cryo got very intense, but he still didn't back off after he unvoted her. When he listed his "reads", he had her as a lurker, which is scum for "she's scummy".