Micro 241 -- Chain of Command -- Game Over

[mastin2]

mastin2 replaces Antihero effective immediately.

Indeed I do.

Anyway...

VOTE: Elyse,

FoS: EspeciallyTheLies

.

Why?

Because they defended me. (Well, my slot, anyway. ) Both in a way that looks transparently like scum defending a player they

know

to be a mislynch. I also think that the wagon on me is towndriven. Now, granted, I haven't read anything other than the latest page, but in particular, Sakura Hana's posting looked amazingly town.

[mastin2]

Just in case,
VOTE: Elyse.

[mastin2]

Not at all, Bulba.

VOTE: Elyse

Okay, so ETL and Elyse

probably

aren't scum together, but Elyse definitely is.

[mastin2]

I did not defend you. I called the people voting you lazy because your slot is null. Big difference.

Uh-huh. Calling the people voting me lazy is not defending me. Sure it isn't.




...How the hell is calling the people voting me lazy

not

defending me, ETL?

[mastin2]

I call bull crap. You're simply backpedaling after having been called on opportunistically jumping on a wagon.

Unvote

Vote Elyse

Bulbazak is town.

(Aaaaaaaaaaaaand...watch this be the ONE game where I don't scumread him and the ONE game where he turns out to

actually

be scum. Butyeah. He looks town.)

[mastin2]

Your push on Elyse is beyond terrible. It was obviously a reaction test - there's no person who posts "Self-votes are scum!!!" with the exclamation marks and everything and means it seriously. Yet you somehow are convinced that she seriously wanted ETL lynched. Nope, you're the one opportunistically pushing a wagon.

Wisdom

may

be scum with Elyse.

[mastin2]

Intent to hammer.

Also possible.

[mastin2]

Widsom, I do agree with your Bulb scumread but you should still share your thoughts if he asks you too.

This is scum-to-scum talking, here.

[mastin2]

I dont like mastin's reads.

That would be because you're currently hanging at null, potentially scum.

[mastin2]

At this point in the day i dont think voting wih reckless abandon is smart. If you are gonna vote there better be a real reason for it.

You imply that I don't have real reasons. You also imply that Elyse is a reckless wagon, when as far as I can tell, I'm her only voter.

[mastin2]

Also,

Defending you would be me claiming i think you are town and you shouldnt be lynched.

There's more types of defense than just blatantly going, "Don't lynch him!" Hell, the people blatantly going "don't lynch him!" are incredibly more likely to BE town. Because scum like to be subtle. They like to have things be strong enough where they can claim the towncred, but not strong enough where it actually backfires against them and works.

[mastin2]

Nacho has led me to mafia lynches on D1 (and sometimes even whole scum teams) multiple times in my life here, so I always trust his reads.

Yes, well, Nacho's not going to stay on this lynch when he logs in and begins posting, because he knows that I'm town.

[mastin2]

You're not getting a townread that easily but I'm glad you're around!

Alright, Nacho's town.

If he were scum, he'd have handed out a townread on me already to manipulate me.

mastin why elyse

Bad posting the entire game which looks heavily scum-motivated.

Why

not

Elyse?

[mastin2]

It'd be easier to show the posts which

aren't

bad.

[mastin2]

Not acceptable. Show me some examples of posts that are, in your opinion, bad, and explain the scum motivation to me.

The answer is, quite literally, nearly every single one. I can quote nearly the entirety of her iso and show you the scum motivation behind it.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Every scummy thing Elyse has said

VOTE: EspeciallytheLies

Self-votes are scum!!!

Wait why does it take seven to lynch and not five?

No, but I don't like your reaction to it.

Oops didn't respond.

No, but I don't like your reaction to it.

What reaction? Her voting you for failing a reaction test? Heck, if she didn't, I would have.

What reaction test? And why aren't you voting me then?

No, but I don't like your reaction to it.

You don't think it makes me scum, but you're voting for me.

Yes. I voted you to get a reaction out of you and see what people would say and I did not like your reaction.

How do you know it was a reaction test?

And do you seriously think that I opportunistically jumped on a RVS WAGON?!?! As if it would go anywhere? Saying people are scum for something done during RVS is great for reactions. I find that scum are often jumpier and react like ETL did (zomg do you actually think I'm scum for that?????) but it could just be playstyle. That's why I don't put toooo much merit into it.

Please. If this was a serious wagon, your argument would have legitimacy. But it's not.

And I dunno why you self-voted. I thought you were just having fun because you basically hand-picked this playerlist.

How are you now saying "I was reaction testing the reaction test"? I mean, if that's the case, why didn't you recognize what I was doing?

I'm not saying that.

I didn't know your self-vote was a reaction test.

How do you know it was a reaction test?

Because self votes are either done at the beginning of RVS when they're null, or it's in reaction to something later in the game, at which point it's dependent on the context. This was neither. Simplest answer was a reaction test to get us out of RVS.

Ok. So am I scummy for not knowing that?

And do you seriously think that I opportunistically jumped on a RVS WAGON?!?!

Yes.

This is just stupid. As scum, there is ZERO motivation to hop on a RVS wagon and hope to ride it out. Come on now.

As if it would go anywhere?

You put ETL at L-2. I'd say the intent was to lynch her.

I hope you're joking.

Saying people are scum for something done during RVS is great for reactions. I find that scum are often jumpier and react like ETL did (zomg do you actually think I'm scum for that?????) but it could just be playstyle. That's why I don't put toooo much merit into it.

RVS is just another part of the game. No one is excused for their actions because "lol RVS". Scum can be caught during RVS too, and in fact, they have.

Ummmmmm....I don't really understand that in response to what I said. I never said people are excused for their actions in RVS.

Wisdom already explained this better than I can, but it was a reaction test, and you need to reevaluate your formulation of reads if you think I was seriously trying to lynch ETL there.

Do you mean to tell me you put people at L-2 all the time without any intention of lynching them?

In RVS I do, yes. And don't even say "RVS doesn't excuse your actions" when people wagon for no reason in RVS all the time.

Then why are you trying to excuse your actions by calling it "an RVS wagon"?

Oh. I thought you meant that I said things that occurred during RVS didn't count. Yes, scum can be caught during RVS, and it can be useful (barely), but bandwagoning to L-2 is not something that is scummy at all. Especially considering that is was obviously for reactions and I asked why the number of votes to lynch was higher than normal.

Wisdom <33333
Yay thank you for giving me a solid town read. I agree with you here.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bulbazak

P-edit:
ZOMG I'M PUTTING HIM TO L-2 I MUST BE SCUM!!!111!1!!!!11

IT WASN'T SERIOUS.

I thought you said it was a reaction test? That's a serious reason to vote.

By serious I mean a vote with reasoning and intent to lynch. A reaction test is not a serious vote, in my opinion at least. I think you are now arguing semantics and you should stop.

WAGON HOPS HAPPEN ALL THE TIME DURING RVS.

True, but as soon as someone gets 3 votes, RVS is effectively over. A wagon with 3 or more votes is a serious wagon.

Also, while wagon hops may happen all the time during RVS, the people doing the hopping will always be questioned for their actions.

Is that a rule? Nope. Wagons can go to L-1 during RVS. It's not like the first two reasonless votes are okay and the next one is "STOP! YOU ARE SCUM! YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE A SERIOUS REASON!" What are you even pushing here?

and you need to reevaluate your formulation of reads if you think I was seriously trying to lynch ETL there.

You put her 2 away from lynch. What were you trying to do to her if not trying to get her lynched?

Reaction test. I feel like a broken record. The vote number doesn't matter. I could put her at L-1 for reactions. I've done it before. She wasn't getting lynched on page freaking 2.

Also, why the claim so early? And why me or 50 shades?

I'm not too clear on the setup. Does the lieutenant have to be town or are PRs meaningless to alignment?

Widsom, I do agree with your Bulb scumread but you should still share your thoughts if he asks you too.

It's page 6. I don't have all the information I need yet.

But at an early glance, ETL could be your partner. If you aren't scum, Flammus and someone else.

Antihero does lurk as scum, but I think this is more of a RL reason rather than a game reason.

Sakura is probably the second scum.

Look at her ISO.

She votes for Bulb, then quickly to Flammus, then Antihero and says she's not moving off Antihero because she "trusts Nacho's read". This is on a slot that has only posted prod-dodges and replace-out posts by that point. I find it very suspect that she abandons her own reasons for votes and goes with someone else's because it "fits his scumplay to a T".

And this is the slot that has only posted prod-dodges and replace-out posts

.

I understand Nacho saying that Antihero is scummy for being lurky, but as I already stated, it seems to be non-game related. If mastin calls me scum for this, so be it I guess. I don't really care since it's dumb anyway.

Why do you even play if you're just going to sheep other people

I feel like you are smart enough to have your own opinions. But I digress.

It's easier for scum to latch on to what other people say and ride with it rather than form their own opinions. I feel you are competent enough to come up with your own opinions as well.

P-edit:
Also that

I was dead serious. You want me to explain every single one of those?

[mastin2]

They tie into the others. Elyse shows a contradiction in mindset between 29 and 35, and then contradicts it again in 39, and AGAIN in 41. Yet once MORE in 45. To some extent in 65 and 81, though these get progressively weaker as time goes on. (133 is the last.)

She's been changing her story the whole time, growing increasingly desperate to get the attention off of her as the lie she's told has grown. All from a vote that was already bad. When it actually

works

and people get off of her, it slowly begins to fade out of her iso, but lingers until the subject is dropped entirely.

[mastin2]

Now you're changing your story though. You said that all her posts were scummy, while now you're telling me that the connection and the progress between the posts is what's scummy.

No. There are other scummy things in her posts aside from the progression in them. Scummy trajectory (ffery's going to kill me if I'm using that wrong ) combined with scummy posting in different areas. There's no contradiction, rather, augmentation. Her scummy posts build off of one another, creating an increasingly-coherent picture of her being scum.

The vote itself was bad because it was forced, it was easy, it was opportunistic. It takes zero effort to jump on a self-voter and call them scum.

[mastin2]

mastin if you don't start interacting with me I am going to get weird on you

Honestly, I kinda thought we already had. I mean, obviously, not directly, but...well, in a sorta "in synch" kind of way, if that makes sense. I mean...you're town; we both know that. I'm town; we both know that. Sakura's town; we both know that. (Speaking of which, Sakura, dead serious; we need to hydra some time. )

We both believe Wisdom is scum. As far as I can tell, we both think Bulbazak is town. The other reads are a bit more in flux for me (exception being Elyse, who I'm scumreading, but who I don't know what you're thinking), so I guess we can talk about them.

Read on Elyse? Daniel Bryan? (Kinda...nullish-town.) ETL? (Almost certainly not scum with Elyse, but far from a townread of mine.) Flammus? (If Wisdom isn't scum, then Flammus is.)

[mastin2]

if you think elyse and etl are not scummates but you are uncertain of etl then why the strong scumread on elyse over wis? going by your vote.

Not sure I'm following.

Elyse and ETL don't look like scum together. Both look like scum, but ETL only looks like scum a

little

, whereas Elyse looks like scum a

lot

.

Honestly, the main reason my vote's not on Wisdom is because there's a serious chance that Wisdom's getting lynched in the immediate future--and regardless of him being town or scum (I think scum), I'm not ready for the day to end, yet. I WANT to talk to you. I want to sort things out for sure.

[mastin2]

He keeps saying things without explaining them and nobody cares to ask him to do so.

Well, it's precisely

because

nobody's asked that I haven't done so.

His concern about not wanting the day to end feels fake as he doesn't really try to interact with anyone.

I'm interacting with everyone. ETL. 50 Shades. Sakura Hana. Even you (despite the scumread).

Granted, yes. When I was reading the thread, I wasn't interacting with others as much as I could have been. But now that I'm here, now, in the moment? Yes, I am. In particular, Nacho and Sakura have most of my attention, but I'm also looking for feedback from Bulbazak.

[mastin2]

Feedback on what exactly?

Everything. Where you stand on all the players, what you think of my thoughts on all the players.

Where do you interact with etl?

Almost all of the first half of my iso is posts directly interacting with ETL. Almost all of the latter half of my posting are posts interacting with you. Not necessarily complying with requests, but interactions all the same.

[mastin2]

You're lying.

Oh?

Spoiler: DIRECT ETL interactions

I did not defend you. I called the people voting you lazy because your slot is null. Big difference.

Uh-huh. Calling the people voting me lazy is not defending me. Sure it isn't.




...How the hell is calling the people voting me lazy

not

defending me, ETL?

I dont like mastin's reads.

That would be because you're currently hanging at null, potentially scum.

At this point in the day i dont think voting wih reckless abandon is smart. If you are gonna vote there better be a real reason for it.

You imply that I don't have real reasons. You also imply that Elyse is a reckless wagon, when as far as I can tell, I'm her only voter.

Also,

Defending you would be me claiming i think you are town and you shouldnt be lynched.

There's more types of defense than just blatantly going, "Don't lynch him!" Hell, the people blatantly going "don't lynch him!" are incredibly more likely to BE town. Because scum like to be subtle. They like to have things be strong enough where they can claim the towncred, but not strong enough where it actually backfires against them and works.

If you add in indirect interactions (that is, mentions of ETL),

Spoiler: which're these posts

mastin2 replaces Antihero effective immediately.

Indeed I do.

Anyway...

VOTE: Elyse,

FoS: EspeciallyTheLies

.

Why?

Because they defended me. (Well, my slot, anyway. ) Both in a way that looks transparently like scum defending a player they

know

to be a mislynch. I also think that the wagon on me is towndriven. Now, granted, I haven't read anything other than the latest page, but in particular, Sakura Hana's posting looked amazingly town.

Not at all, Bulba.

VOTE: Elyse

Okay, so ETL and Elyse

probably

aren't scum together, but Elyse definitely is.

You get...literally, half. of. my. iso. on. ETL. I did check the scrollbar; those posts make up almost exactly half.

ETL's 340 rubs me the wrong way. (Like, seriously, the wrong way.) It's basically just gut, but SOMEthing in it just feels...

off

.

and suddenly, elyse-wisdom don't look like scum together.

Indeed. What do you think of Wisdom-ETL?

Unvote,
VOTE: Wisdom

L-1.

[mastin2]

Those posts are you defending against ETL's accusations. Not you engaging her.

No, they're

making

accusations against her. Some defend, some attack. That's engagement, albeit not as much as possible, because I was focusing on other subjects at the time. (Mainly, getting caught up, Elyse, and thinking Elyse is scum and wanting her scumbuddy.)

[mastin2]

Mastin, you keep talking about me being scum but haven't interacted with me or replied to anything I've said about you. What's up?

Eh. Have been kinda intentionally ignoring you. I've been watching to make sure me ignoring you hasn't caused you to antagonize me in case my read changed (it might have), but I wanted to basically have you on edge so that I could get a better handle on your alignment. (It's in a similar vein to what Bulbazak said in his post that's after yours--watching, carefully, how you were posting.) It was at scum, but now...not as sure.

You can re-ask all the questions you did when I was ignoring you.

You and ETL are strong townreads. I can understand ETL's paranoia of me, as that happens a lot to people who play in games where I'm scum (Fferyllt is still paranoid of me after Donner Party). Currently, I'm giving her room and watching what happens.

Okay, Bulbazak. Talk to me more about ETL. The paranoia doesn't look like town-paranoia to me. Give me more than that.

What do you think of Wisdom-ETL?

I loved it before I read Bulbazak's most recent post.

Eh, I actually liked Bulbazak's latest post, but I take it from this that we at least both agree on ETL being scum, sooooo...

VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies.

[mastin2]

But,

Eh, I actually liked Bulbazak's latest post.

We should work this out now, Nacho.

I'll trust your ability to read Bulbazak over my own. But right now, I'm townreading him.

Everything he's saying seems to mesh well with a town perspective, his posts look solid, he feels like he's legitimately scumhunting, and I don't see the problem in him. Can you show it to me?

[mastin2]

hated everything about post #364, especially the self-meta-ing.

I'd have to double-check to be sure, but I'm reasonably certain he does self-meta as town just as much as he does as scum. But I'm just not seeing what there is in that post to hate. So, help me see it. 'Cause right now...it really feels like you're town who just got distracted from scum (Wisdom) and are attacking town (Bulbazak).

[mastin2]

tbh I don't care if he self-metas as town. it was a really terrible post. the only towniness I am reading from that slot is his begging for nacho's attention earlier in the game.

Town can make terrible posts, too, so you need to show me why it's a scum-terrible post rather than a terrible town post.

you better not shy away from me mastin cos I want you close

Well, I'm sheeping your vote, aren't I?

But more seriously, I'm here. I'm talking to you. I want to work this out with regards to Bulbazak. You're seeing scum, but I'm...not. And I'd prefer we work that out.

[mastin2]

so are you just sheeping or does etl give you the niggles. if so why

Both?

ETL's posting has been tripping my radar since the beginning. I mean, I thought ETL wasn't scum because I thought Elyse was and that they weren't scumbuddies, but that's changed.

Why doesn't it look like town paranoia to you? She completely misread me in Newbie 1333, and as such, she is not going to immediately see me as obv. town.

Because it feels forced. "Hey, look, I'm paranoid of this player because he's too strong!", essentially. It looks like an excuse to misread you, rather than a legitimately-concerned player.

masin if you can't see it then I am not sure how to explain to you

I'm sure there'd be scumminess in Bulbazak's posts, mollie, but simply put...I'm not seeing it. You keep on saying "fuck, that's so bad". But...I'm not seeing anything. Like, at all. It's not super-pro-town, no. But it's certainly not the super-pro-scum you're pushing, at least as far as I can tell. I see a mildly pro-town player, you're seeing scummy player #1, and I'm trying to see what could possibly be that bad about his posts, but I'm just not seeing it. :/

bulba is a logical player and with logical players their logic adds up and bulba's does not

Show me this. Because I'm not seeing the flaws.

[mastin2]

His 179 is a forced conclusion. How does your Elyse vote mean that you're not scum with her? Why didn't he think of the possibility you did that on purpose because he accused you of being scum with her?

You assume that the quote in 179 is the entirety of the reason why I concluded they're not scum together. It's basically the entirety of their interactions. They don't look or feel like scum interactions. They're both scummy independently of their interactions, but they don't look like a scumteam.

234 - bullshit! Nacho was pushing the lynch of his slot before he replaced in, it would be hypocritical to call him town right away

anyway

. Yet he somehow names that a towntell for Nacho.

It's ME. Mastin. Damn-right Nacho not towntelling me is a towntell from him. If Nacho were scum, he'd need me to not be scumreading him. He'd need to not antagonize me. He'd need to have me helping him. Not sabotaging him. Which means that my presence alone, regardless of my predecessor, is enough for a scum-Nacho to be forced to townread me regardless of his previous read on the slot.

It's the very fact that he

didn't

townread me which gave me the townread. It shows that he's

not

reading my slot the way he is just because it's me in the slot. It shows he's concerned about my alignment, rather than knowing it already. It shows that he is trying to figure it out, rather than trying to figure out how to manipulate me. All signs of a town Nacho. It's not too hard a concept to grasp.

He first claims that all of Elyse's posts are scummy - when asked to explain, he backpedals and says that it's actually the progression of her posts, the trajectory, that makes her scummy.

There is no contradiction. They're both true. Elyse's posts are scummy. They also have a bad trajectory. These augment each other, not contradict one another. When asked specifically to explain the first two, I said that they were mainly tied to the others, which is true, because they were mainly (but not entirely) scummy because of that trajectory.

When asked to explain how it's scummy, no answer ever came. Also note that now he has forgotten about all this and is pushing other people, which shows that it was all bullshit.

Except I haven't. The reason I'm not pursuing it is because I no longer believe it. I can do so, as a novelty, but it's pointless because I now think I was wrong.

He sheeps Nacho on you despite claiming I am scum - why?

Because I'm calling you BOTH scum.

[mastin2]

If I wanted Nacho to townread me, the first thing I'd do is attack Nacho. Seriously. It works every single time. A town Nacho knows that a town Mastin is going to be paranoid of him.

Not

being paranoid of him gets a scum-me in trouble. (See also, Walking Dead.) Butno, I'm not interested in getting Nacho to townread me. I'm interested in lynching scum. Which I think is you and ETL.

[mastin2]

@mastin, I maybe new but I know youre reputation for being verbose? You keep saying things like "they cant be scum together, but now they can" without actually explaining how so. So why not actually explain these things?

Because I dislike being verbose.

Actual real reason, I'm kinda lazy when it comes to scumhunting. I'll push hard when I feel I need to, and will bring up good, solid logic when doing so, but only after I've gotten well and good settled in, feel I'm in my element, and people aren't already sheeping me.

[mastin2]

@mastin...where is there a correlation between Flammus (aka moi) and Wisdom that indicates if Wisdom is town...Flammus (aka moi) is scum? (which Wisdom picks up on a few posts later as well)

It was a remnant of a read. I had Elyse pegged as scum, and was looking for a scumbuddy. I thought Wisdom. If I was wrong on the scumbuddy, I thought it was your slot.

That's since changed, with me not having a scumread on Elyse and having one on ETL.

mastin...

what is your current read on Elyse?

Pretty much dead-null ambivalent. A lot of posts still look bad, but Elyse's recent posting looks overall much, MUCH stronger. Not to mention, I have two decent scumreads, sooooo...not a scumread.

[mastin2]

I have concluded that sakura is being dumbtown and bulb is scum.

VOTE: bulbazak

L-1.

:scumposting:

[mastin2]

P-edit: I've just concluded that ETL has been bamboozled by scum and is doing their job for them.

Doing their job, most certainly.

Is not one of them, now...now, that, you're wrong on.

[mastin2]

Both are quite obvious and don't need explaining

For someone hammering ME for not explaining things, this is really, really hypocritical.

[mastin2]

mastin I am getting that same vibe from you that I got in twd.

I don't really see how. This isn't the same me at all. (Blahblah, different game different me, different alignment, different role, you get the idea. )

Nacho, mollie? I don't think Bulbazak is scum. I really don't.

I think that ETL is opportunistic scum. I think that Wisdom is blatantly-flailing scum, desperate to get a mislynch rather than letting him or ETL be lynched today. Currently focusing on Bulbazak, but also setting up Sakura to be mislynched tomorrow. (Granted, ETL's even worse in that regard.) Read their posts. Tell me it's town scumhunting. I. am. not. seeing. it.

Read Bulbazak's posts. Tell me they're scum flailing. I. just. don't. see it. I see town, frustrated, trying to work with other town, to try and lynch scum, angry and a bit desperate, but also strong, resolute, and knowing that even death would be a Pyhrric victory for the scumteam.

[mastin2]

Is not one of them, now...now, that, you're wrong on.

What?

Read ETL's posts again. Knowing you're town. Knowing that there's going to be scum pushing your wagon, and it's not 50 shades. Who does that leave? I forget who the other member of the wagon is, but...it leaves Wisdom and ETL. Now, knowing you're town, and knowing there's scum pushing your wagon, read ETL again. And tell me that ETL's town being manipulated by scum.

And isn't actually scum being opportunistic.

[mastin2]

when a player tries to divide a hydra there is usually an agenda involved.

Maybe so, but I'm not seeing that from Bulbazak. I'm not seeing an effort to divide the hydra. Bulbazak's reaching out to Nacho, yes...but he's not ignoring you or pushing you away. He's not trying to drive a rift between you to form dissonance. He's also reaching out to you, much as I have been to both halves of you, even though I lean towards a half.

Do you see his reachouts to you, mollie? Because I do. Yes, he's mostly given up on that, but can you blame him? His reach-outs to you have been ignored. He HAS been trying to deal with you. But he's been failing because you haven't let him.

And am I also scum for reaching more towards Nacho than to you, mollie? (Granted, I'm reaching out to you more than Bulbazak is, but he clearly has been.)

Basically, right now...I get the feeling that you're getting frustrated. You're not understanding why people aren't following you, you're not understanding why it's difficult to work with them, you're getting upset that people aren't seeing what you're seeing. (Do correct me if I'm wrong. ) Know how I got that feeling? Because, mollie. I'm having the exact same feeling about you. I want to follow you, I want to understand you, I want to work with you, and it's frustrating me to no end that I can't see what you're seeing. I'm trying. But I. just. don't. see. it.

Mastin, why are you still voting ETL? That wagon isn't going anywhere.

Because I'm desperately clinging to the last vote that had Nachomollie and I on the same page.

VOTE: Wisdom.
I'll try to get up a wall on Bulbazak-being-town on Monday, but to be perfectly honest, I don't think I'll get around to it. Kinda busy already.

[mastin2]

ThAd looks town. (Fitz, not so much; have him as dead-null still.)

@ mastin
I would like to see his reach outs. quote.

you kinda look like scum caught between a hard place of lynching your scummate or trying to weather things out.

'Kay, will in a bit.

And I am in a hard place, but it's not because I'm scum with Bulbazak. It's because you're seeing Bulbazak as scum, and I'm not.

It doesn't make any sense not to suspect Bulba or call him town.

Quite the opposite. It doesn't make sense to call him scum. I really don't get mollie's points. She's not making any sense to me. I want her to, but she. simply. isn't. Then there's you. Who, the observant, will find I'm voting and calling scum at least partially because of the push which should make no sense.

Then there's Elyse, who I

currently

don't have a scum, but who's an overall sour spot in the game. Some good, lots of bad, and all that.

I have my own case on bulbascum. lemme know if you wanna hear it

Yes!

Wisdom's playing a manipulative play and is bothering me, maybe that's why i think partner might be ETL or Elyse but they might as well just have fallen for wisdom's manipulation.

Hydra with me. Please. <3

Will get to reading the wall in a bit.

[mastin2]

VOTE: Bulbazak

I'd like to have a flip now.

And wisdom's partner raises from the shadows

SAKURA. DEAD SERIOUS. WE NEED TO HYDRA.

Similar thoughts, similar reads, similar styles of play, and a similar habit of sheeping Nacho but not relying on him. We'd be perfect partners for one another.

[mastin2]

Alright, Nacho's town.
If he were scum, he'd have handed out a townread on me already to manipulate me.

This seemed like mastin was finding an excuse to townread me, which I didn't like.

Nacho. Don't do this to me. I am town. You are town. I explained this. And you damn-well know it's true. IF YOU WEREN'T TOWN THEN YOU WOULD BE TOWNREADING ME. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that you-as-scum place me at null or at scum. I'm not, am I? You. As scum. Would place me at town. You not doing so told me you were town. Seriously. 198 was not a throwaway post. It had meaning. Know what that was? That was actually me, quite explicitly, LAYING THIS OUT. And then, when you posted, I had exactly what I needed to tell you were town.

We've been out of sync for a while, and there's been a little effort made to get us back on the same track, but not really enough.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK ALL MY POSTS ABOUT BULBAZAK AND WISDOM ARE ABOUT?!?

I'm ticked off. We're

not

in synch. We

should

be in synch. We're both town, yet we're not on the same wavelength. I've been trying. I'M STILL TRYING. To get us on the same page. I'm still trying. I'm still trying to see Bulbazak as scum. BUT I JUST CAN'T. Okay? I just...am not seeing it. I'm trying to work with you. I'm trying to see it. But I don't. I just...don't. see. it. I wish I could. I wish I was able to suddenly reverse things around, and see him as scum. I wish that doing a hard reset, reading things carefully, and all that, would help. BUT IT'S NOT. Or, rather...in theory? I can maybe see him as scum. MAYBE. SEE. But I can't believe him to be scum. No matter how hard I try. IT'S. JUST. NOT. THERE. And I can't understand why you have him there. I'm trying to comprehend it. I'm TRYING. But it's...just...not. there. Okay?

I'll trust your ability to read Bulbazak over my own. But right now, I'm townreading him.

I'm assuming you'll be checking the thread near deadline. I'm scumreading him.

The thing is...I do trust you. But...I really feel like he's town. I really, REALLY feel like it. I trust you, but...you're not trusting me. I don't think he's scum. I really don't. And I want you to try and see things from my way. Because I am trying to see them your way. I just...am failing. I want to trust you. I REALLY want to trust your read. But...I'm not feeling it. At all.

'Cause right now...it really feels like you're town who just got distracted from scum (Wisdom) and are attacking town (Bulbazak).

For any particular reason, or...?

Well, aside from the gut? The general vibe of the way things were going. Wisdom was backed into a corner. Then, BAM. Attack on Bulbazak. What happens to Wisdom? He goes all opportunistic and launches aggressively a counter-attack, seizing the opportunity that you opened up to get a mislynch where before he looked to be utterly screwed. What happens to ETL? Joins in on the fun. It feels like a townVtown fight with regards to you and Bulbazak, being milked for all its worth by Wisdom. In contrast, Wisdom vs. Bulbazak reeks of scumVtown.

Seriously. Read your exchanges with Bulbazak. Ignore the literal wording of them. Look at the circumstances, look at the mindset, look at the interactions. And even IF you're defaulting to Bulbazk being scum...try it with Wisdom being scum instead. That's what I'm seeing. That's what I'm feeling.

[mastin2]

It's not like I have been pushing Bulbazak since the beginning of the game, no

Oh, you have.

But your tone shifted INSTANTLY the moment you had 50 shades backing your ass.

[mastin2]

Seriously. Don't have the time before this gets locked, but it's right there. Before-50shades and after-50shades are a completely different Wisdom.

[mastin2]

Just gonna mention that I was ordered to use my voyeur powers on ThAd and I got no result.

>Goes back to V/LA

VOTE: Sakura Hana.

Claim: Jailkeeper.

The captain ordered me to jailkeep ThAdmiral. I obeyed. Thus, if Sakura were a real voyeur and obeyed, I should have shown up.

[mastin2]

Well, my action should have, at least.

[mastin2]

Seriously. This is a 1v1.

-Sakura claims to be the Voyeur.
-Sakura claims to have been ordered to target ThAdmiral.
-Sakura claims to have gotten no result.
-I am the jailkeeper.
-I was ordered to target ThAdmiral. I obeyed.
-Thus, Sakura would have seen my action (whichever type jailkeep is listed as on the setup; I'd need to check).
-Sakura claiming not to have seen it is, therefore, a scumclaim.

[mastin2]

I bet there's at least one on that list.

Bulbazak - 5 - Elyse, Wisdom, EspeciallyTheLies, 50 Shades of Purple, Sakura Hana

That leaves Elyse, Wisdom, and Sakura as possibilities if we're working with this. I am going to believe Sakura's claim and results. So we have Elyse and Wisdom.

50 Shades suspected Wisdom. Bulb suspected Elyse.

I'm guessing one of Wis or Elyse is one of them, and the other can be found between Thad and Fitz.

Alright, ETL. You can be town. Sakura's scum. I think that both scum were on the wagon, though, and I also think Wisdom is scum.

[mastin2]

Now, if Sakura is scum, and is the voyeur, I don't see the benefit in lying about what occurred, since saying that Thad was jailkept only says he did not submit the kill.

I don't have a clear explanation. The best I've got is that Sakura's partner is the voyeur, told Sakura the target, and Sakura today incorrectly assumed that the other surviving power role would not be on Sakura.

But Sakura

has

to be scum, here, because I KNOW I sent in obey. I KNOW that my action should show up to a Voyeur, and I KNOW that it was on ThAdmiral. Sakura claiming it wasn't is a scumclaim.

[mastin2]

8. Follower/

Voyeur

clarification:

Jailkeeper=Protective

/Voyeur=Informative/Follower=Informative/Rolecop=Informative/Bodyguard=Protective/Motivator=Supportive/Doctor=Protective/Poisoner=Killing. Also, the Follower cannot detect the factional kill.

9. When a player has been ordered to perform an action they will receive this message: "Your captain has ordered you to Bodyguard Faraday. Will you follow orders? Will you Obey or Disobey?" (not choosing will result in a 50/50 coinflip as to whether you'll obey or disobey) And remember, the Captain (and only the captain) will know if you've disobeyed orders. He will not know YOU the player disobeyed, only the role. In this instance, he'd know the Bodyguard disobeyed.

From the wiki article. I checked my PMs again. And I confirmed it. I was ordered to target ThAdmiral. I obeyed. Sakura, claiming to be a voyeur, also said to have targeted ThAdmiral...but the result shouldn't be "no result". It should be "protective".

[mastin2]

...

Well then.

UNVOTE: Sakura Hana.

VOTE: Wisdom.

[mastin2]

Also, AFAIK, PR does not = town. So...... I'm allowed to try to make sense of the reasons behind things.

True, but Sakura's probably town anyway.

/more to come when it isn't the weekend.

[mastin2]

Refer to my vote.

[mastin2]

So, right now, I'm seeing the ETL-Wisdom debate and getting a strange feeling of deja vu, between what happened in the fight yesterday with Bulbazak vs. Wisdom.

My feeling then was that it was TvS.
My feeling today is that it's still TvS.

Identical overall vibe to their fights, with the same player. Wisdom's stances this game are entirely too convenient. He pushed for the mislynch on Bulbazak harder than any other player, and had ETL as one of his stronger townreads that day, if memory serves. Now? Now, as soon as he catches flak, he BSes a reason to reverse his read on ETL, and begins attacking her when it's convenient to have done so, setting up another fight, one which he probably felt he could realistically win.

It's opportunism at its finest.


Now, this obviously means that ETL's not scum. Add in Sakura being town, and we're left with {Elyse, fitz, ThAdmiral}. Elyse also doesn't look like scum with Wisdom; I made that clear yesterday. So it comes down to the choice between fitz and ThAdmiral. And I'm strongly,

strongly

leaning towards it being ThAdmiral. Wisdom goes after fitz rather than ThAd, and ThAd goes after Elyse instead of Wisdom. At this stage, as scum, they probably think that bussing would be a bad idea, which would perfectly explain their actions today.

[mastin2]

K cool.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: havingfitz

Yeah, genius. Tbh I still think he's somehow scum, it just doesn't make any sense how he defended Bulba.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fitz

Wow small games really get to Poe quick don't they. If its out of you and fitz I definitely lean towards fitz.

I'm not liking this fitz push at all. It looks entirely too "convenient", if that makes sense. As if he's a mislynch the scum are hoping to quickly pop in on, to get a nice lylo ticket.

[mastin2]

Yeah that's what is kind of concerning about it.

(Basically, this*. )

* Did I mention ETL's now a townread?

[mastin2]

et's look in fitz/wisdom.

(However, it's a weak townread for things like this. Going immediately from "the fitz wagon is concerning" to "let's look at fitz!".)

[mastin2]

1100...mastin....why is Sakura town?

Aside from the claim? Overall play, and Nacho vouching for Sakura. If you don't trust my read, trust his read; he can read Sakura well enough to pin a scum-Sak instantly, and vice-versa.[/quote]

[mastin2]

Why are you deliberately cutting out the whole explanation of how I came to that conclusion that was in the same post and came just before that statement and then making this leap and claiming this is why your town read on me is weak?

Because the reasoning isn't important. The TIMING and sudden switch is.

Tell me. What if I made a ten-paragraph post justifying a switch in read on Wisdom to be town? You would see that as scummy, no? A sudden reversal is a sudden reversal no matter how well justified with explanation. The important bit isn't the words, it's the intent. Which I highlighted. I still have you as town, because I think it was a town sudden-reversal. But it was a sudden reversal. And it DID ping me, for that very reason. Thus, weaker townread, but not scum.

[mastin2]

tbf I think ETL, Sakura and fitz all look town for their last page exchange. Maybe it's mastin/Elyse after all.

It's Wisdom-ThAd.

Note how he leaves out ThAd on his list, here.

[mastin2]

Oh it's the TIMING. I get what you're saying. The TIMING. So like, I should have answered Wisdom's question BEFORE he asked it? I see, I see.

Snarking aside. I'm dead-serious. Wisdom's question might have sparked the reversal, but it was a reversal all the same, immediately after having taken the opposite stance. (A stance I shared, that the fitz wagon was suspicious.)

I think you're town. Through a combination of other reasons. But it's comments like that which mean you

could

be scum, even though I don't think you are, because it shows a potential scum motivation behind it. Basically, as scum, sudden reversal makes total sense through simple logic.
As town, the sudden reversal is a bit more contrived, if that makes sense. Not impossible, and in fact, looking quite probable. The reasons behind the 180 look like they're a town thought process, even if I think them to be a wrong-town thought train.

Thus, town, but not strongly town.

How can it be a "sudden reversal" when I fucking stated my suspicions on both as equally suspicious like.. 2 pages prior to this? You're making shit up. Stop it.

I didn't have the post you made in mind at the time. Though, looking at it...
-Overall, while you might have later said fitz, you were saying previously before Wisdom's question that you were leaning towards ThAd.
-In the post where you have both of them, it's not particularly strong.

Will gladly retract the point if you can put my mind to ease about the above. Explain in great detail what you think of ThAd, what you think of fitz, and far more importantly, what you think of how OTHERS are treating the two of them.

[mastin2]

Okay, ETL.

Oh good lord that has to be the scummiest response to "what are your reads" I have ever seen. "Elyse and I don't know"?

You can be a stronger townread. Your reasoning's good, your logic is solid, and you bring up excellent points like this.

To the "mastin wouldn't claim JK as scum" believers - once again, there was no reason not to claim when he saw an opening to incriminate a townie and quickly get to lylo. Even if he got lynched for that, it would grant his buddy two shots at the captain.

Except that's not really true at all.

-Sakura claims a result that I know can't be true.
-A scum-me knows that either Sakura is lying, or the mod screwed up.
-A scum-me is presumably not scum with Sakura.
-Thus, a scum-me knows that a town-Sakura has no reason to lie.
-Thus, a scum-me would know that it was a mod screw-up.
-Thus, a scum-me would correctly make the call that the mod would clarify the error, which would make outting myself be pointless and counter-intuitive.
* You can argue that a scum-me would rely on the mod not clarifying the error, but in that case, it's a 1-for-1 trade. I don't believe in sacrificing myself to get into lylo as scum. I haven't ever since the disastrous 1v1 in Mafia on Werewolf Island. I never go into 1v1s willingly as scum. EVER. If I enter into them, it's because I was forced into them. So this one falls apart via meta.

The theory of me being scum holds no water. Occam's Razor applies. Look at the above scenario required for me to be scum. It makes a lot of convoluted assumptions that build off of each other, to get progressively further away from reality.
Now look at the situation with me-as-town--
I saw Sakura claim a result that I know can't be true.
The thought of a mod error never occurs to me, and I jump straight to the conclusion that Sakura is lying. I act, immediately, on that impulse, because I'm dead-certain I've caught scum.

Wisdom's Mastin-is-scum violates just about every bit of logic in existence.

[mastin2]

I don't want to harp on about it but we'd be in a lot better shape if bulbazak wasn't lynched day 1.

Might I remind you whose fault it is we lynched Bulbazak D1?

Oh, yeah!

It was Wisdom's.

[mastin2]

What is "excellent" about this post? Do you really agree with it or are you sucking up to ETL?

I

kind of

agree with it, and it's something I picked up on. Is it necessarily true, no. But it was a town thought even if not true.

The other's on the Bulba wagon have no reponsibility?

50 shades was on the wagon, and had a damn-good reason to be suspicious of him. (Them being the commander.) No responsibility.
Sakura was another member of the wagon, who is almost certainly town, and not only that, but didn't want to lynch Bulbazak that much, either. Virtually zero responsibility.

That leaves {Elyse, Wisdom, ETL}.

ETL looks town. (Though, admittedly, has some responsibility for the lynch, but has admitted as much.) Elyse looks town. (Elyse wasn't among the stronger pushers. While she did push Bulbazak as scum, she had the second-best reasoning to have done so, behind 50 shades.)

Soooo...yes. Wisdom has pretty much full responsibility for the Bulbazak mislynch.

[mastin2]

Hey, ETL. Give me a few minutes to get some thoughts in. (Also, to type out lyrics in a follow-through post to the one I'll be making after this. I need to synch it up to match the beat, but I think it'll serve as a nice good summary for what you should be doing.)

[mastin2]

mastin is still scum, and everyone else minus Sakura still does not understand that we cannot afford to lynch anyone other than me or mastin.

I would also like to point out that there is a flaw in Wisdom's logic in that it assumes all other players aside from him, myself, and I can be the captain. I didn't do so intentionally, but even accidentally, I've been able to pick up on some not-captain tells from some players and some captain-tells from others. Obviously, I'm not going to elaborate on these, but the point remains that if I can do it, so too can the scum have narrowed things down. (ESPECIALLY since they're guaranteed to have at least one member inside the group.)

I'm effectively treating today as lylo, then. Because if we miss the scum today, then if they're not incompetent players, they can nightkill the captain not with 50% accuracy or so, but with 100% accuracy instead. Wisdom is ignoring this piece of critical info.

ETL, you need to recognize that.

You absolutely should be caring who we lynch, because if you lynch the wrong person (hint: Elyse is the wrong person ), then it's game over for us.

There's plenty of time for discussion and im liking fitz comments on ETL.

At this point, ETL's confirmed town. See also--not having hammered, yet. A scum-ETL can get away with hammering one of the players, and would absolutely be beneficial to do so for her-as-scum, especially if she hammered Elyse, because Elyse has a chance of being among the candidates for being captain, and thus, her lynch puts the scum MUCH closer to victory.

...Speaking of that point, Wisdom absolutely is scum for having ignored it. He so strongly advocated that the lynch should be among {him, me, Sakura} off the logic of not narrowing the candidates for the captain down further...yet an Elyse lynch will do exactly that.

Assume I am town, however absurd it is.

That would be the fitz-ThAd combo. Their presence on the Elyse lynch (ESPECIALLY considering they're pushing other players) is horribad. It would mean that the Bulbazak wagon was all-town, though, and I don't believe that for one second. Thus, why you're scum.

ETL if you don't care why don't you hammer one of us? We're both at l-1

A town-wisdom would never rush into this lynch. It's bad if he gets lynched, it's worse for a town-him if it's Elyse getting lynched, and yet, he's trying to pressure ETL into hammering without thinking. As I said, this is effectively lylo, so she damn-well SHOULD be thinking, which Wisdom is trying to discourage.

And I haven't? You haven't? Mastin hasn't?

(ffery's going to kill me if I'm using this wrongly. ) The difference is the trajectory. Your reads have evolved organically. Sakura's have as well. So have mine. They're adapted as the circumstances changed, but did so in a natural way.

Compare and contrast to Wisdom, whose changes are opportunistic, forced, artificial, oh and did I mention, opportunistic? He's not playing to get scum lynched. His reads have no natural flow, with their jumps being broken and jarred. He's playing to get a game-winning mislynch, and will have whatever reads are most convenient to achieve those ends.

[mastin2]

I can sum it up to you with a song. A song I call...
"Scummy Scum, Is Wisdom."

Scummy Dummy Scum...Is Wisdom.
You know that he's not this stupid.
Scummy Dummy Scum...Is Wisdom.
So please please help us lynch him.

Please see him as scum,
That Wisdom!
He's working scum's agenda.
His job's to deceive,
So please do see!
He's not town and is our scum.

I know you've got a mystery to solve,
So please don't buy into all Wisdom's crap;
It doesn't lack...
That scummy scum, who is on the run.
I swear to you that Elyse is town and he is bad.
That's a fact.

Scummy dummy scum, Is Wisdom.
He's ready and he's willing,
To lynch town not scum, oh Wisdom.
Because he IS the villain.

[mastin2]

Fuck, Wisdom actually

is

town, isn't he?

[mastin2]

It's actually ETL/Thad, and Elyse is town.
Finally figured it out.

Dammit. I think you're right, Wisdom.

[mastin2]

I specifically asked ETL to take time and think things through, and she hammers Wisdom instantly in response to that.

That doesn't look town. At all.

[mastin2]

It's not Wisdom's posting, ETL.

It's

yours

.

[mastin2]

Like, the timing just doesn't seem to add up from a town perspective.

Thinking they're both town. Not having read the entire thread. Seeing both at L-1. Declaring intent to hammer. Then, hammering, before feedback could be given.

[mastin2]

If I survive to see tomorrow, I can explain it better, but don't have time to before the flip. Essentially, the progression doesn't seem to match with a town-ETL.

[mastin2]

btw - mastin's sudden reversal is suspicious to say the least and has knocked him down a notch. Don't act like Wisdom's bullshit convinced you when you were screaming for his head a couple pages ago. Don't think I didn't notice.

Then there's this. If I were scum, I could have just said nothing and let the mislynch go through. The towncred people have on me would remain untainted. Twilight posting is bad for scum. I explained why in my last newbie-scum game, but don't have time to track down the link.

[mastin2]

If you couldn't tell by the above, what I'm saying is that ETL is trying to paint my move as being scummy, to discredit me. When, again, I have to speak my mind in case I don't get a chance to come tomorrow.

[mastin2]

God I just want this game to end, honestly.

And then there's this. As town, wanting the game over at this point would be against your wincon. As scum, wanting the game over at this point makes sense. I think it means that ETL knows who the captain is and is banking on a win either tonight or tomorrow night.

[mastin2]

mastin is not your average player. he doesn't follow the rules of scum tells and town tells and "not talking in twilight" or whatever.

Except I do, and this IS a discredit of me.

I invented the rule of not talking in twilight as scum, because guess what? Talking in twilight as scum is AT ABSOLUTE BEST written off as wifom, with at worst it giving the town something to see you as scum and/or shed some towncred onto a town player, and/or help out your scumbuddy. It's not a rule I would arbitrarily break for the lulz, as you're implying.

AND YES, YOU DAMN-WELL ARE IMPLYING IT.

[mastin2]

I'm not trying to discredit you; I'm pointing out something I am noticing. Stop with the buzzwords.

mastin is not your average player. he doesn't follow the rules of scum tells and town tells and "not talking in twilight" or whatever.

Again. The latter IS discrediting, no matter how much ETL is saying it isn't.

Yes, I'm not your average player. But I do have a set of rules that I use as town and as scum. Not posting in twilight as scum is a rule I enforce because it's similar to fakeclaiming miller as scum as far as I'm concerned--it's a bad idea. Something I don't do not out of stubbornness, but because it's dumb.

Implying that I don't follow that rule is implying that I am scum which is a weapon used to discredit me.

[mastin2]

ETL/Thad is my final guess, let's see if I'm right

This is it. It explains everything perfectly. The d1 wagon, the D2 wagons' progressions, the overall play, everything.

[mastin2]

and besides, why are you giving me shit for pointing out a legitimate suspicion. If you were so sure I was "conftown", as you said, doing so would make sense to you. Instead you are being defensive, and this is what I don't understand.

I AM SAYING YOU ARE SCUM.

[mastin2]

There's no defense in my actions. (Okay. So my actions can be interpreted as defenses. I'll give you that much. But there's zero intent to defend.) This is pure simple offense.

I think that ETL is scum. Who set things up to win. It makes perfect sense. I wish I had the time to explain it.

[mastin2]

Yeah, it explains everything, yet you only saw that after I got lynched

Yes. I'm sorry, Wisdom. I was wrong. It wasn't you. It was ETL. But yes. I only saw it after you got lynched. Because the circumstances behind your lynch are, in hindsight, scummy-as-hell, and I didn't see it before.

[mastin2]

I'm going to wait on Mastin's thoughts because I know the person that was jailkept wasn't hit by a nightkill (again). But I won't disclose that name yet.

I want the captain to claim who they are, right now. Because we both know who was targeted, there's no chance of a scum player CCing the actual captain. We should have a guaranteed win, here, too.

-The captain claims, with their target.
-We confirm.
-Scum can't counterclaim.
-We lynch outside of the PRs and the captain.
-Tonight, the captain has me jailkeep them.
-The scum can't kill the captain. At best, they can kill me.
-And in 4p mylo, we lynch the remaining scum.

It's even better when factoring in the jailkeep.

Basically, I think we've won this game, and I don't see a flaw in the plan. At absolute worst, it'd give us a 50/50 shot, but at best, it's a guaranteed win.

[mastin2]

Scratch that order. The captain claims, with their target. We give everyone a chance to counterclaim, but the scum won't because they can't. THEN we confirm the captain's target.

[mastin2]

My question is why didn't mastin die?

That depends on whether the jailkeep was a protect or a roleblock.

If a protect? Because the scum thought they could get a win tonight by shooting the captain.

If a roleblock? Because the scum probably DID, but got blocked.

Apparently, Sak knows which one it is, soyeah. Game won.

[mastin2]

obviously the jailed person is the captain, and so im not outing the name.
I'm prob. gonna vote fitz, but I wanna hear from everyone else first since this is MyLo.

I'm not so sure, but yes, I think that fitz is scum.

[mastin2]

WTF would you consider voting me? Because I pushed both mislynches?

No, but thanks for the ammo!

Because I’m pushing a plan to out the Captain while there are still two scum left (see Sakura and mastin)?

Nope, but thanks for the reminder! (See also--the timing. You pushed for it yesterday, where the scum could win via nightkilling me and then the captain. We pushed for it today when that strategy was rendered impossible.)

We're pushing you as scum, simply, because you're not the captain, you weren't a protection target, and you're not a power role. That gives you an AT WORST 66% chance of being scum and at best 100% chance of being scum. But beyond the pure statistical numbers pointing to you being scum, there's also the fact that your play this game has been ridiculously scum-oriented.

Do you ever have good games?

Ad hominem does not suit you, fitz.

But to answer about who I suspect. It's ThAd in my sights. Sakura's town, the captain's town, and the target is probably town-who-was-nightkilled.

Two scum alive...JK dead tonight...Capt unprotected for the next night.

Two scum alive. If we don't lynch scum, it's pretty much game over regardless, so long as the scum don't send a jailkept person to nightkill. So let's work under the assumption that we do lynch scum. They nightkill me. Captain is left alive, with 4 players alive. Mylo. Yes, IF there was a next night, the captain would be exposed. But there wouldn't be, because that'd be a scum win ANYWAY.

[mastin2]

What do we do tomorrow if we hit scum today?

Second verse, same as the first.

Weeeeeeee go to jailkeep someone,
Voyeur targets that same someone.
And we can shut the scum kill down you know.
Then we go into tomorrow.
And then we go lynch some scumbag (scumbag!),
Then we parade around our hard win (hard win!),
Which results in a town win here,
Here a town win will be!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. Butyeah. We jailkeep. With luck, the scum's kill is blocked, giving us two shots at winning, though we should only need one. If not, we've still got a near-guaranteed victory. My plan is to lynch fitz and then ThAd, because I find that to be our most likely scumteam.)

[mastin2]

I’m against the Captain outing him/herself.  And WTF did I push for yesterday? 

You did a whole heck of a lot of analysis on the captain yesterday (D2). That basically is, as bluntly as it is, an effort to out the captain. I know you're not the captain as a result of that, too, and also because you said you wouldn't have the JK and voyeur target the same player when that's exactly what has happened.
 

2)ThAd being a protection target isn’t keeping you from suspecting him

He was a protection target N1, yes. Doesn't mean he's not scum.

3) Scum can be a PR. 

Can be, yes, but I'm not scum and Sakura's quite bluntly my strongest townread. This is Sakura's townplay, through-and-through.

And if we do hit scum today (which I am not)…why is nightkilling you a given?  What happened to the possibility of the last scum being jailkept? 

I was addressing the worst-case scenarios. Not the best. The best-case scenario, you can find in my Henry VIII remix.

if i was jk'd why the fuck is mastin still alive then????

I said it before, I'll say it again, ETL. If you're town, then the scum thought you were the captain. So, therefore, they also have the most motivation to eliminate the captain. They nightkill the captain, or so they think. Their kill doesn't go through. They attack the player they think is the captain, hoping that my paranoia of that player will secure the mislynch of the alleged-captain.

In other words. Fitz, pushing you as scum, in the hopes that I'd buy it and give the scum an instant-win, with fitz assuming you were the captain.

Basically.
-Scum go into night, thinking you're the captain.
-Scum nightkill you, hoping that they'll get an instant-win.
-Scum, seeing the kill fail, need to improvise a new plan.
-Scum build off of paranoia between me and you. Me-living-as-JK, and me-suspecting-you. Scum think they can't win with both of us alive.
-Thus, scum will try to lynch one or both of us.

And who does this fit? fitz. (:P)

[mastin2]

Sak, ETL. None of us three can be the captain.
Fitz can't be the captain.

The captain's either ThAd or Elyse.

We shouldn't lynch either of them.
We should lynch one of the names outside them. I'm town. Sakura, you're town. ETL could theoretically be scum, but I don't think so. I think, simply put, the scumteam's fitz-ThAd. In which, we lynch fitz.

[mastin2]

Why should I unvote? I suspect mastin. I'm notsaying he's right often but he at least presents rationale points...which I fail tosee in here.

Uh-huh.

This is totally me not presenting rational points. Yeah. Right.

It's simple. You've been outplayed, fitz. The cards are stacked against you. Sakura is town. I am town. You can try to convince others that one of those isn't true, but you will fail, because they both are. That leaves ETL, Elyse, and ThAd. One your scumbuddy, the other two town, one of which you believe to be the captain because you know your scumbuddy isn't the captain.

You want to mislynch the person in them that isn't your scumbuddy.

You've barely batted an eye at ThAdmiral this whole game, but you've been pushing both ETL and Elyse as scum quite a bit. Every piece of evidence points to you.

[mastin2]

I already said that I only saw a jailkeep, not a nightkill.

I don't think it shows up to a voyeur. It's quite plausible that the scum nightkilled ETL and you simply can't see it. In fact, checking the wiki...

Also, the Follower cannot detect the factional kill.

Seems to suggest as much.

[mastin2]

Unless ETL was scum and the captain actually DID stop the night kill.

(This not being impossible is the main reason I'm not voting fitz right now, by the way. I DO think that fitz is scum and ETL's town. But I need to make sure of it.)

[mastin2]

Mod: help?

Let's put it aside and get an answer.

In the mean time, let's focus not on the roleplay, but the normal scumhunting aside from that.

Without any info on the setup tainting it, who do you think is scum?

My answer doesn't change at all, being fitz-ThAd, though it's not as certain without the roles aiding in that conclusion. We can add the roles back in after we get a mod answer, but in the mean time...Sak and ETL since you're here, who do you think would be scum, roles put aside?

[mastin2]

Roles put aside ETL and Elyse.

ETL I can maybe see (maaaaaaaaaaybe), but what do you see in Elyse? Elyse's play has been decently-solid for the majority of the game, and if anything has grown stronger.

Compared to ThAd whose been a non-entity the entire game (BIG RED FLAG), and fitz who has basically been scumposting for a significant portion of the game.

[mastin2]

A little extra about the roles i just thought:
The thing is that scum no longer needs to lynch the captain to win, as since it's MyLo any town lynch will earn them the win, it makes sense from a scum PoV to have gone for framejob anyway tbh.

This is also true. It also points towards fitz, whose play here seems to suggest this mindset.

[mastin2]

Sak, this is mylo, not lylo. It takes two town players voting a town player in order for scum to win. But that said, fitz is probably scum anyway, so no harm done.

[mastin2]

There's something wrong with Elyse. I can't explain it. Maybe it's just paranoia but it's been bothering me for a couple RL days now. Something wrong there.

The answer's here.

she's barely been here D3. Tho ThAd also fits this picture.

Day three has only been open for a couple of days. Elyse and ThAd have both posted only once (well, twice back-to-back in ThAd's case), so of course their inactivity is going to be a concern. But we know one's the captain for sure, and the captain's basically confirmed town as far as I'm concerned.

[mastin2]

Basically, the scenarios right now all seem to be pointing the same place. Sak's town. The only way ETL's scum is if she were roleblocked when performing the kill, and I don't think that's true. That leaves the three names, one of which is the captain, the other two of which are the scum. fitz isn't the captain, and thus, looks to be scum. The ONLY scenario in which fitz isn't scum is if ETL is, with the non-captain player. (Theoretically, it'd be possible for a fitz-ETL scumteam, but in that case, we'd still be lynching fitz. )

Elyse hasn't been around much, but I think that's because of it, y'know, not being that far into the day. She'll probably be posting a storm soon enough. Her play overall seems to make a lot of sense to me, especially if she is the captain.

But anyway, have to leave for the moment. Be back in a few hours or so.

[mastin2]

In case you hadn't noticed I'm pushing you as scum

Yes, which is part of the reason you're scum, as discussed in the bits you're conveniently not quoting.

Also...once again you fail to acknowledge that Sakura's result showed your jk wasn't targeted.

And there's the possibility that the scum nightkill doesn't show up, thus the question to the mod to clarify. Again, you ignoring this is part of why you're scum.

And I didn't do shit yesterday to encourage outing the Captain. Nice misrep.

I'll be demonstrating this as wrong via the captain-fishing you did before in a bit, after I return.

[mastin2]

Oh I get it, so it's basically a who's scum out of ETL and fitz.

Pretty much, yeah. I think it's fitz, but I'm not voting 'til I'm damn-sure.

[mastin2]

Do you think mastin obeyed and jailed ETL and then tried to kill her?

Oh jeez why didn't I think of this.

Because nightkilling the same person I'm jailing is absolutely and entirely stupid? Seriously, think that statement through. As a scum JK. I choose to obey (when my target very well could be the captain!). And then, nightkill that person. (When I already know they're going to be protected.) Gaining...pretty much nothing.

[mastin2]

Oh, and by the way...

fitz who has basically been scumposting for a significant portion of the game.

This is bullshit mastin and as we have played in numerous games...its one of the reasons I suspect you.

THIS is bullshit, fitz, because a town-you knows damn good and well what a town-me will do.

[mastin2]

^ maybe... but seems like a waste of two positions. If the Captain IS town...unless he thought 50 Shades was scum (like me)...he would have had both target 50 vs Thad. Also...scum would know that 50 was town and be concerned with targetting a ~strong town role if they (scum) didn't know all the PRs.

The main point is that I do not think a town Captain would have. And whatever that implies wrt yours and mastin's (and ThAd's for that matter) alignments remains to be seen.

Captain-fishing.

Why? Why would a town Captain have his two remaining PRs target the same player?

More captain-fishing, not to mention, a scummy position to take. (Having both target the same player is arguably the ideal usage of the role in that situation.)

If the Captain is town he doesn't need the voyeur to confirm what the other PR is...he already knows.  So makes no sense for them both to target ThAd.  On the subject of Voyuer...man that is a crap role.  I could see it coming into play if we had no idea what the roles were and we were trying to find fake claims...but in this game...where the Captain knows the roles....worthless.  And even moreso now that all the claims are known.  As for the attempt to roleblock a kill?  Sure....but why have the voyeur target ThAd as well?   You'd only need mastin for that.  A scum Captain on the other hand would not have any worries with regard to the PRs because he/she could send them on wild goose chases away from scum.  In fact...having them target the same player could have been an attempt to draw out the last PR (mod error aside).  That makes more sense than there being a stupid town Captain. 
 
On that note...I do not think discussing the alignment of the Captain is going to help us find the Captain...and the actions that were ordered/carried out last night just add WIFOM to the potential alignments of mastin/sakura....and even ThAd.  So I think the scum vs town Captain chat is kind of a dead end.  I also think if the Captain is scum town is screwed.
 
I think the best way to handle this game is as if it were Mountainous.  Just target the people you suspect most and disregard claims...unless an opinion was able to be formed based on last nights order/actions.  Those can't be discounted...I just do not think they are definitive....don't confirm anything. 

A big wall of captain-fishing. What's the point of this talk if it's apparently not to figure out the alignment of the captain? Oh yeah. To help identify the captain. Fitz wouldn't mention this if it didn't serve a purpose. The purpose apparently wasn't to scumhunt (since he's explicitly saying he can't figure out the captain's alignment from it), so it has to serve another purpose. In this case, by fishing for the captain. He ironically was called out for it. His defense?

@ETL....at no time have I expressed an interest in finding the Captain.  And unless the Captain is scum...I could care less if we ever do.  I only bring up the Captain as a factor to consider (or dismiss) wrt the N1 night actions.  If the Captain was town...what do his N1 orders imply?  If he was scum...what do his N1 orders imply?  It was just something I thought was potentially worth discussion when I brought it up.  Now I'm not so sure if it was worth anything and Sakura's last point, if anything, made me reverse my leaning scum on the Captain to leaning town on the Captain.  Bleh.

"I thought it potentially worth discussion". What would you gain from the discussion, fitz? Not the captain's alignment. You said as much. A hint as to who the captain is? That? That...oh, hell yes, you could.

You said you didn't, but you damn well know you did. On day two, you were fishing for the captain. You got a red herring in the form of ETL, but it wasn't her.

"HA!" you shout.

@ETL...when I made that comment I was of the opinion the Captain was scum.  Do I want to find scum (aka at that pt in time...to include the Captain)?  Yes.  And that line you quote was me saying the discussion about the Captain's alignment was not going to help us find the Captain (aka at that point in time IMO...scum).  Nothing about "how do we find the Captain"..."let's go find the Captain"..."we really need to find the Captain".  The line was about the topic of dicussion and how it wasn't going to help us find scum (aka at that pt in time...to include the Captain). 

I'm ony interested in finding scum...and where/if possible to clear town (hence the Capt alignment topic to begin with).  Which...I point out immediately after the line you are trying to concoct a lie from.

So there was no lie.  And your insinuation comes across to me as an attempt to start something towards me which fmpov would be the first chink in my up to now leaning town read towards you.

"I

was

scumhunting!"

Except you weren't. Claiming that your comments were scumhunting to figure out the captain's alignment is bullshit, because you explicitly said, earlier in the day, that you didn't know the captain's alignment and didn't think you could discern it from the discussion. That it was a point of interest--not something that was actually scumhunting.

You're caught in a lie.

I knew these gems existed, but in highsight, that's FAR stronger than I remember them being, and that pretty much removes the last iotas of doubt in me.

VOTE: havingfitz.
You. are. scum.

[mastin2]

So mastin, who is it from the remaining 2 in your opinion?

Probably ThAdmiral.

[mastin2]

I'm not going to go all major freak-out on y'all, but dammit, if I just handed the scum a win, I'll be very upset that I got played like a fiddle.
Butyeah. I don't think there's anything more to say other than to pray that I wasn't an idiot. Fitz is town, we've probably lost short of the jailkeep working. Fitz is scum, we try to block the kill. If we succeed, we lynch scum. If we fail, I die, and you lynch scum. (ThAdmiral.) Basically, the game's won if fitz is scum, and down to Elyse's accuracy if he isn't.

I'm not sure there's anything else to say; that seems to be everything. I'm basically hoping there's no flaws, that I didn't make any mistake, but I don't think we did. I think we've got things down.

[mastin2]

If fitz is town then it's thad/mastin and we've all been duped.

It's not. Now, one of those two...sure, yeah. (ThAd.) But I'm not scum.

[mastin2]

Well, it's not exactly relevant anymore since we've apparently had a lynch, but...

I already said that I only saw a jailkeep, not a nightkill.

I don't think it shows up to a voyeur. It's quite plausible that the scum nightkilled ETL and you simply can't see it. In fact, checking the wiki...

Also, the Follower cannot detect the factional kill.

Seems to suggest as much.

The Voyeur is an informative role that can target a player at night and learn what was done to them that night (protection, investigation, etc), but not who did it.

Target players who are likely to be the recipient of many actions. The information you receive may not be immediately useful, but may become more useful as the game goes on.

Considering it's part of play advice on players that take multiple actions it does seem as i could've obtained a "Kill" result on the player if they were NK'd.

At the time, I was hoping you could clarify this.

[mastin2]

Kinda worried that people in this game have been posting elsewhere, but not here. :/

[mastin2]

Not sure. But still...you'd think there'd be something being said.

[mastin2]

[mastin2]

High-five mastin!

High-five to you, too!

[mastin2]

(But seriously, read the lyrics. It's the perfect scum victory song. )

[mastin2]

Right, so my inner-IC has been itching for some coaching, because some of you are probably going to feel down about this game, thinking it's a blot on your record. Instead, I have to say that it was an honor playing against y'all, and you should be proud you did as well as you did. So let's talk about things in their chronological order of death.

Bulbazak:

Your performance was truly admirable. You died for your captain, loyal to the end. Every action you did helped your captain, and your undying loyalty to said captain made your services honorable and noble. It was a great cause to have fought for. And, in fact, your services helped directly contribute to her win! Truly a great ideal for a lieutenant to have aimed for, deserving of praise from your captain. Undertaking such a self-sacrificing task took an act of incredible bravery, that she will remember forever. There's just one, smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall issue:

Your captain was scum and you weren't.

I'm sorry for the circumstances, Bulbazak. I'll be honest, in that I don't really know why you died as quickly as you did. There's not much I can help you with, but I'll do what I can. Basically, I think that your game here was much better than our last encounter, but I think you can still tweak things more. I think that you can benefit a lot from taking a step back from things, and looking at the larger picture a bit more. This is basically the same advice I gave to you last game, though in a different set of circumstances. (There, it was not looking ahead in time, forward. Here, it's more like not looking around, seeing everything in the CURRENT time, if that makes sense.) You're certainly learning from your mistakes (which is an excellent step!), but you need to make sure you also are trying to stop yourself from making new ones.

I think that if you take a step back from things and think them through a bit more, you'll be a far more effective scumhunter than you currently are. You did get Elyse, but you could have gotten more. I definitely understand why you scumread Wisdom (see below), and that would mean that you wouldn't scumread anyone else given two scum candidates. But if you had taken that step back and looked at the bigger picture, it's possible you could have done better. You might have thought a Wisdom-Elyse team to be unlikely, and re-evaluated which of them would be scum. (Granted, you probably would have concluded it'd be Wisdom, but still...let's deal in the theoretical scenario where you keep the correct Elyse scumread and drop the incorrect Wisdom one. )

Taking that step back, if you were to re-evaluate your reads, you might have caught onto the not-so-subtle hints to the true scumteam of the game. I was mega-buddying you, Bulbazak. That's something that you normally would catch, correct? Even if you didn't ultimately conclude my buddying made me scum, you might have at least seen it and had it ping, like it did for Wisdom. That itself could have theoretically been enough to condemn me, but even if not...once you throw in my complete and total drop of my Elyse push (which Wisdom ALSO caught ), it really was. Think of things on that grander scale, Bulbazak. I think you can get a lot better if you do. Interactions are a key part of the picture. And my interactions with you/Elyse were a dead giveaway. It's definitely something that'll take practice to pick up on, but I do think you can do it.

Beyond the scumhunting, though...what you really need is a way to stop getting mislynched, or to be a mislynch candidate. It was true our last game, and it's still true now. You can have the best damn reads in the game, but it's worthless if you end up mislynched for your efforts. (Just ask Wisdom! ) Basically, you could probably use a tweak to your overall approach in your game. I hate to use my scumplay here as an example, but it is a handy way of demonstrating what I'm talking about--look at how I interacted with mollie. My emotions of frustration might have been faked, but they LOOKED really legitimate. (I did my damnedest to make sure they looked real rather than fake, because I needed that townread as part of my plan. Read below about Sakura to see it. ) It looked legitimate for damn-good reason, because a town-me really would have been frustrated about the communication issues.

Basically, while it might not seem like a good idea, incorporating successful manipulative tendencies from scumplay is a great way to enhance the charisma of your townplay. In this case, you can see it in effect with the difference in how I treated mollie and how you did. I was trying, really REALLY hard, to talk to both halves equally. Beyond talking to both halves, I also treated them with respect. You certainly did treat Nacho with respect, but looking at your play, I think we both know that you kinda weren't treating mollie the same way as you treated Nacho. If you had treated mollie with the same respect that you treated Nacho, then you might not have even been in the situation that got you lynched in the first place. Basically, every player counts--meaning, every player inside a hydra ALSO counts. A failure to talk to one half of a slot is just as bad as a failure to talk to a full slot, in that it'll end up antagonizing them.

Though that said...you don't want to play entirely like scum, Bulb. It's incorporating. INCORPORATING. Not mimicking. So when you mess up your claim, it's a bad idea to hide it. I think you know that already, but basically, I think you can take some tips from it. I know you probably didn't mean for it, but your claim came across as you trying to get towncred. I realize that you made the claim in order to survive, but rather than treating it as alignment-null, people treated it as scummy, and I think that perception of you trying to milk towncred from it is what caused that. I'm not exactly sure what to pin down in order to prevent your claim to come across as looking like it's for towncred, but I think you can figure it out just by being aware of how people can perceive the claim.

Beyond the claim itself being misapplied, there was also the mistake in it. Bluntly, as town, when you screw up a claim, you admit that you screwed up your claim. Trying to hide it, trying to cover it up, trying to fix the mistake, only made it much, MUCH worse for the town, and I think you know that. I know! As town, it can be difficult to admit that you made a mistake. But that critical element of humbleness will make a huge difference. By not fearing the consequences of the truth and simply telling it, you've deviated from the scum mindset, and thus, won't be struck down as scum, but praised as town. (In theory, at least. ) It might seem counter-intuitive, that by claiming your screw-up, you become town. But we sorta have an example of that later in the game, with how I interacted with Sakura's claim. It's not an exact match, but it demonstrates how a screw-up can generate towncred, rather than removing it.

Essentially, I think that you've made progress as a player, but still have room to grow yet, Bulb. I think the biggest thing to take from this, though, is probably the same as my advice to you last time. Most of these problems seem to stem from the same core issue, and can be tracked to the roots of one pesky thing, that I know we all have quite a bit of:

Arrogance. Like I said--a large part of being an effective scumhunter is recognizing that you're not perfect. By admitting your flaws, you'll grow to be a much stronger player. It'll allow you to think things through more, be more critical, not make premature conclusions, make your interactions with others be more natural and sociable, and all-around make you a player people actually want to play with. That's not to say you can't have confidence. Confidence is a wonderful thing to have in mafia games. It just means that you need to be cautious that it doesn't morph into arrogance, which isn't. Learn to control it, and you'll be a deadly scumhunter. Don't let it control you, because that will hurt you. Master it, don't be sabotaged by it.

Nacho & mollie:

<3 you two. I don't think I can really give you any advice. I guess my advice to Nacho is that you should continue being active even on D1 and not rely on your hydra partner, and to mollie it is to both be paranoid of buddying (but NOT to reach-outs; I was buddying, while Bulbazak was reaching out) and also to work with your hydra partner a bit more.

(Part two in a sec.

[mastin2]

Wisdom:

To be short, a lot of what I said to Bulbazak applies to you even moreso. :P It'd be unfair to not give credit where credit's due, in that you were the only one to get it 100% right. I was scum with Elyse, obvscum even. I was as blatant as I could be; you had me caught. Your logic about my interactions with Bulbazak and Elyse was dead-on. But please, hear my plea when I say...don't let that small moral victory fuel your ego. It's poisonous to the game's atmosphere. You turned ETL against you, you turned Sakura against you, and you basically made it so that they were lynching you because you made the game less fun, not because you were actually scum. Take my advice to heart, and recognize that while you did a lot of good this game...your play was not perfect, having a lot of flaws that you can fix. But you do need to recognize that they're flaws, and that they need to be fixed.

For instance, while I'm more than willing to play future games with Sakura, I'm not so willing to play games with you. At least, not the you that you were this game. You can do better, Wisdom. I know you can. You can be a player that I legitimately like. You can be a player that I fear as scum, respect as town. (This game...you weren't. Despite having things right, I never once was afraid of you.) You had things right, but ended up being what was effectively the game-winning mislynch. And the reason why is because of that factor. Because you need to have that paradigm shift in thought process, essentially. Games are meant to be won, but games are also meant to be fun. Your attitude this game was so toxic that it literally killed any chance the town had at victory.

It started with you losing any semblance of towncred after the Bulbazak lynch you spearheaded--but while that might have been the most notable event in the game, it was neither the start nor end of the mistakes you need to know you made. It starts with the really basic things. Death-tunneling hinders your ability to scumhunt. You were SO SURE that Bulbazak was scum, declaring him obvscum, yet never stopped to pause and think that maybe, just maybe, obvscum meant not scum. (In my experience, players who're obvscum never actually ARE scum. Unless they're me. :P) If, from the beginning, you had stepped back and thought things through logically, and if you had put in the effort to work with others (rather than flying solo, as you were), then you probably would have seen things much sooner, and with far more effectiveness. Yes, you never know for sure who is town and who is scum--but mafia is a social game, which requires you to actually SOCIALIZE with the players. :P

Instead of doing that, you basically held a stubbornness, holding onto a read that should have long-since passed its expiration date. In essence...you lost sight of your goals. You focused so much on some things that you forgot about the entire reasoning for having pursued those things in the first place. There's another way I can word this--

You relied on strongarm tactics to push your lynches through. I'd be the first to admit that strongarm tactics work short-term for getting things accomplished; you DID get a Bulbazak lynch from it. But the drawbacks in the long-term can hopefully be highlighted by this game, in that the strongarm tactics made you less effective a scumhunter D1 and turned against you on D2. It's simply not a viable tactic in this day and age. The more you shout, the more you scream, the more you demean, the less and less you'll get done. You can (and did!) get someone dead from it, but the players will eventually turn against you (as they did) because they're sick of the bullshit. :P And town BS is still BS. You were right about me and Elyse, but wrong about so much that there wasn't going to ever be a realistic chance of you getting things to go your way, and again, I think that largely has to do with the attitude, the approach, you've been taking to the game.

Basically, my recommendation is to change your fundamental approach to the game, both in scumhunting techniques and for working with others. You've got a lot of natural talent, so your scumhunting techniques don't require much refinement, but if you really want to be a good player, they SHOULD be tweaked--and my advice is to "slow down" them a bit. By which, I mean...basically, thinking before going off on impulsive whims. Doing so, you probably would have not done a lot of the stupid stuff (like paranoia) that got you in trouble. Losing sight of your true scumteam might never have existed, and you might have had a perfect game to be proud of. While I can certainly say that nailing me and Elyse is something you can be happy about, it's not something you should take pride in given the overall flow of your game this, well, game. :P If you took that time, to think things through, then you might have even caught that Bulbazak was town and I was buddying scum. You caught the buddying bit, but only too late.

But that said, that's the small stuff. The bigger piece that you really, REALLY need to work on is actually working with others. Your presence hurt the game. Make it enhance it. You shouldn't be talking at the players, but rather, TO them. Mafia's a team game, and if you're unwilling to be part of the team, of COURSE you're going to end up ignored. Again, I hate to use my scumgame as an example, but you can see the differences between us. I worked "with" the town players, to try and form cohesion. You worked against them, not willing to take their input. Quite frankly, your attitude towards a large number of the players (especially Sakura) was demeaning, and that "FUCK YOU!" attitude is not a good part of team spirit. :P Now I fully understand, you can hate their guts. But letting them KNOW you hate their guts isn't exactly a good way to get them on your side. :P If they're town, you still need their votes, and you need to let them think they're working with you.

Key word, though, is 'think'. For instance, while I let the town players think I was working with them, the truth is, they were working FOR me. I got away with it because I gave off the illusion of equality. You called people horrible, terrible, awful players, whose very act of scumreading you made them either scum or players who should never play again. That holier-than-thou superior attitude made it clear that you weren't looking for cooperation, but obedience. By making it clear that not supporting you was scummy, you basically made it an "us or them" attitude, and as history has shown, that never goes well for the person making the declaration. :P

You might have backed it up with words and meta, and had everything necessary to make a good argument...but it was ignored. Not because of the players--but rather, because of you, and your presentation. Rather, because of the attitude, the TONE, you used when delivering it. Again, you can compare me to you. I treated everyone with respect, holding them in high regards. Everyone, from Bulbazak to Sakura to ETL. I tried my hardest to work with the others. I demanded nothing of them, instead asking it of them. I was polite, I was friendly, I was relatable. And the results were evident.

Whereas I got townread, people scumread you. Because they wanted me to be town and wanted you to be scum, because you were bossing them around (which they don't like) and I was treating them as an equal. I wasn't treating others as if they were weaker (which you were), and I never pushed them into doing things. I may have subtly suggested things, implanting in them ideas that I wanted them to have, but the key is that I didn't shove those ideas down their throats. :P You were insulting everyone, while I was busy complimenting the stronger elements in their play. While I was scum, this attitude is of a MASSIVE benefit to a town player, because again...mafia's a team game, Wisdom. You can't win it alone. No matter how much you think you can, "Hero" mentality is nothing but a delusion.

Even if--behind their backs--you're cursing at the very existence of these supposedly-weaker players, you can gain the charismatic edge you need by pretending you're not. :P People love it when they're treated as an equal. People love it when they get to work with another. People love it when there's an aura of friendliness and mutual respect hanging around, and are going to be more willing to accept you if you can so much as half-convincingly fake those feelings. :P

Basically, boiled down to the very core elements...what you need is the same as Bulbazak. Even if you can't get rid of your arrogance--you need to at least make it appear as if you have. But take it from a guy who's been an arrogant ass: you'll be a much more respected player if you DO learn to master it. :P

(Yes, Wisdom gets his own post. That's because the rest aren't as long. :P Part three in a sec.)

[mastin2]

Sakura:

Don't feel bad. I was dead-serious when I said I wanted to hydra with you. Your reads were, ultimately, wrong, but through no fault of your own. "How? How could it not be my fault?"
Because you were my one, Sak.

You might have heard Nacho talk about it. But basically...in lylo, it only takes one townie voting a town player in order to win. And you were my one. I had you selected as my one from the minute I began playing. I was targeting you, specifically, to get into that position. I made Nacho townread me and nightkilled him, specifically so that your trust in Nacho would make you continue to townread me. I was nice to you, I never doubted you, I did all those things, to help continue to appeal to you. When you claimed, I built my claim around your own. Everything I did, was meant to keep you on my good side.

So it wasn't because you were bad. It was because I was specifically leaving you blinded to my scumminess, catering myself to you. And that's something that could have happened to anyone. I don't think you should stop playing. Your logic is actually quite solid. You picked up on a lot of good material, including legitimate things about Wisdom. (Which, as I said to Wisdom, are flaws in his play that he should fix.) I'd go so far as to say that your reasoning wasn't wrong at all. It's the reads to have resulted from it, your ultimate conclusion, that need a tweak.

And as for the "I can be obvtown" problem? The solution to that isn't to retire. It isn't to dumb down your townplay, either. It's to evolve your scumplay. I can't give you a personalized lesson on improving your scumplay because I don't know your scumplay that well, but basically, by incorporating a lot of your natural self into your play as both alignments, the lines between them begin to blur. Put successful elements of your townplay into your scumplay, and don't be afraid to do vice-versa! I see a lot of potential in you. My encouragement of you might have served a scum agenda (in that it was me manipulating you), but that doesn't mean it was faked. I wasn't lying. I believe every word of it. That you're a good player, who has a ton of potential. You just need a slight refinement in technique, and you can do what I do.

ETL:

Sakura was my one, but don't feel bad. When we made the decision to no-kill? You became my two. I didn't intentionally play you like a fiddle from the get-go, because I was actually considering you as a D3 mislynch along-side fitz and ThAdmiral--or failing a mislynch...a nightkill (in fact, that was my original plan--nightkilling you!). But when D2 rolled around and you became paranoid of Wisdom, then I realized...
"She's not invulnerable, after-all!"

Basically, I began to target you as well as Sakura. While Sakura was my target audience, you were an unexpected pickup that I decided to run with as much as possible without losing my main audience of Sakura. (The fact that the same things Sakura thought made me town made you think I was town was a huge boon. )

You were dangerously-competent this game. You correctly picked up at one point that there was a scum captain with a scum PR, even, something not even Wisdom managed to guess! You have a good head about you. You work with others fairly well (a factor that basically every player not nightkilled aside from Sakura this game lacked), and even better, have surprisingly-good logic to back it up. I realize you're not exactly a new player, but I think that what you really need is still the same as a newer player: experience. You've played enough to be a good player, but you already seem to have a lot of the skills needed to take it to the next level. What you really need is refinement, and that's not something I think I can help you with. Keep on playing, and play often. See what works, what doesn't. Keep in mind the constantly-changing nature of the game when doing so, though; a tactic working once won't work again. (For instance, if I played the same way I did in this game in any other game, I'd be lynched. )

But basically...just hone in on what you're already doing. Work with others, show the difference in your confidence and your caution, explain where you're coming from, and you'll be good. Wish I had more advice to give you, and I do apologize for being scum this game, but I think you're still growing on your career, and have the potential to be a really stellar player, so keep it up! (Me not having much to say isn't a bad thing--quite the opposite, it's a really, REALLY good thing. )

ThAdmiral:

Basically, lurk less. That's about all I can really tell you. If you're going to sign up to play a game (or replace in, in this case), you need to actually devote the time and effort needed to give that game its full. Had you done so from the get-go, it woulda been nearly impossible to paint you as fitz's scumbuddy, but because you were inactive, because you lurked and didn't give this game your full, because you weren't proactive, I was able to turn the town against you, casting suspicion on you where before your slot had been seen as town. You are capable of doing so much more than what you gave this game.

havingfitz:

If it makes you feel better, I actually WOULD have townread you if I were town. My scumread on you was purely scum-motivated, in that I needed you dead in order to win. But that said, there were flaws in your play, a lot of which were part of the ammo I used to target you for the mislynch. I think that part of the problem is that you've basically got the worst of both worlds in your play. You've got the logic and analysis of a more analytical player, but the heart and emotions of a more spamposting emotional gut player, if that makes sense. In that you pick up the flaws of both but fail to properly convey the strengths of them. I'm not sure that's the real issue, but it might be worth looking into. Because this is the second time I-as-scum have mislynched you in mylo for the win. It might be worth looking into the common factors present.

But I do think I kinda have the general problem in mind, when thinking about you. Having the pushing style of a charismatic player (your push against Sakura was, at times, tunneling; your push against Elyse was similar; your push against me was definitely along the same lines; your push against ETL was weaker but still visible) yet the posting style of a more logical player puts you in the position where you come across as saying a lot of words, but the words look like they're meant to be words, rather than actually accomplishing anything. It might be a good idea to try and reassess your play. See if you can become more proactive. Your posting in lylo was actually kinda dangerous. If you kept that up the whole game, you'd be a much harder target. Amplify it, and you'd be a nearly-impossible one. Failing being proactive, you can try being less strong in your pushes. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but sometimes, less is more. Try asking other players what they think rather than pushing what you think.

It might not work, but it might work. I'm sorry that I can't really give you that much advice, fitz. All of this is just my best guess as to fix the mislynchable problem you have. To be honest, our styles are pretty much at near-polar opposites, so it's very hard for me to give you good advice that will actually work. But there's certainly no harm in at least trying to vary your play. It might be worth trying my ideas. Maybe not at the same time, or maybe at the same time, but trying them (or similar ideas) all the same could give you a much better footing in the game.

Side-note, but one thing that I've tended to notice is that your scumplay is more logical, whereas your townplay is more emotional. Your emotions are muted, in that they feel restrained, and are therefore hard to pick up on, subtle and even potentially looking artificial, but still there and mostly absent from your townplay. It's not the best tactic, but another potential tactic you can use is to better display those emotions. (Obviously not CAPS LOCKS RAGING AND DROPPING F-BOMBS, but managing to convey it more effectively through other methods might help.)

(Final part in a sec.)

[mastin2]

Elyse:

Good job! You started out kinda weak, but bounced back rather strongly almost immediately. I got the impression that, similar to me, you weren't playing at 100% this game, but you definitely did quite well overall. You played the captain role very well, and also dodged needing to claim the captain role. You made a plausible scenario for it to paint a picture for a town-captain-you (up to and including your Bulbazak push!), and managed to strike the perfect balance. You were scummy enough not to be super-town (which, ironically, would have set off red flags most likely), while also not being scummy enough to get lynched. You did kinda lurk a bit, which was okay for this game, but make sure that if you don't have a role to save yourself, you're pushing hard every day, like you did near the end of D3.

On my play:

I was a cheeky scumbag. What can I say other than that? I'd say that in this game, I was only firing at about 75% of my cylinders, because that's about all it took in order to secure the win. The way the roles were given, I knew that it'd take only minimal effort to win (see below), so it wasn't so much that I needed to lynch town as it was I needed to make sure scum weren't lynched. My play from the very beginning was targeting this goal. I pressured Elyse knowing that in the worst case scenario, her claim would save her. It had the pleasant side-effect of causing her to up her game, and making me look town to most of the players as a result. (Especially Bulbazak.) Then, knowing in the worst-case scenario, my jailkeeper claim would save me, I proceeded to basically not care how obvscum I was being, and to manipulate players into positioning me in their town piles.

My buddying to Bulbazak got him as my ally. My buddying to Sakura got Sak on my side. fitz and ThAd, being non-presences in the game for the most part, weren't needed to buddy, which left 50 shades, Wisdom, and ETL. The key to 50 shades was to not buddy, thanks to mollie and Nacho both knowing that me buddying them is bad. It wasn't to go hard-on against them, either. Nor was it to ignore them entirely. It was to take a little bit of each and meld them together, so that they would think that I was town, who happened to conclude they were town, but wasn't sure of it, and was confused as to how they were playing. It worked, albeit taking much longer than I had anticipated (I would have preferred it happen before twilight, so that Nacho had time to elaborate on why I was town), and that left the issues of Wisdom and ETL. Wisdom, I just flat-out didn't bother with, having profiled him as the type where any effort would only make him scumread me harder.

ETL was where I was actually most frightened, though. Wisdom, I could use his ego, his arrogance, and his overall attitude against. I could make the town turn against him, via me being friendly and him being hostile, and let them rip him to shreds as a result. Listening to their hearts rather than pure logic, I knew that he would be going down sooner or later. But on ETL...I had none of that. She was a wildcard. I didn't have her pinned down. I didn't know what would work and what wouldn't. So I basically just wrote her off, and I think that ironically was the very thing which I needed to do in order to buy her favor. With Nacho dead so that he couldn't change his read on me, the only thing left was the no-kill. Elyse gets a lot of credit for that idea, but I was thinking mentally in my head that there was no good kill on N2, because anybody's death could unintentionally paint the picture I had worked so hard to obscure. I needed Sakura, I didn't want ETL dead, and neither fitz nor ThAd were good kills.

So I was more than happy to no-kill, setting up a plausible scenario to explain it, and let the town eat itself away in the resulting chaos, as the only players to look town from it would be the scum. Basically, by harvesting paranoia of town players, and making sure it wasn't turned against me, I steered the entire course of the game to go how I wanted. Sacrificing an ally of mine on D1 (Bulbazak) in order to secure the lynch of a pain-in-the-ass on D2 (Wisdom), and from there, playing the cards just right so that we could get two town players to vote a town player.

On the setup:

This setup seems like it's largely decided by the randomization at the beginning. In this case, having a scum captain alone made it lean towards scum, yet alone, the scum JK. That double-combination of scum power basically sealed the deal for this game's outcome before it had even begun; the town was almost never going to win with only two weak power roles who're forced to follow scum's directions. The setup itself might be balanced by random numbers, but depending on the setup generated, can swing massively to one side--in this case, scum. So you shouldn't really feel bad that we won; it wasn't exactly hard to pull off purely based on roles.

Granted, the players in the slots probably sealed the deal, in that Elyse is a decently-competent scum player and I'm a magnificent manipulator who knew EXACTLY what to do the minute I came in. But still, I'd say that a fair 90% of the town loss was purely because of how the cards fell. This same playerlist with the same two scum, but with the roles distributed differently, very well could have been (and probably would have been) a town win.

On the game:

I think it was an excellent game overall. You're all strong players, and you all have a great deal of talent. Things might have worked out against the town, but it was a good game overall, and you certainly put in a valiant effort all-around. Nice job, everyone.


Sorry, the write-ups aren't quite as good as I want them to be, but the game ended a little bit faster than I anticipated, so this is as much as I could type up.

[mastin2]

Real nice wisdom. Do you always gloat after games where you lynch yourself?

This is part of the problem in his play that I'm hoping, PRAYING, he fixes.

Like, I'm basically admitting that I didn't really earn my victory and that it was given to me off of the setup. That key element of humbleness is essential to become a next-level scumhunter. (Sorry about the song, though.)

[mastin2]

That was Bulbazak's bullshit regardless of Elyse's test. In general, Bulbazak was that ridiculously anti-town townie that made me lose sight of the actual scum (mastin). In other games, it's Sakura, now it was Bulbazak.

Wisdom, I know it was a long wall, but the long wall I typed up was long for a reason--in that I put time and effort into giving you heartfelt advice. Please. I know, walls are walls. But you should read it all the same. I'm begging you, because this is part of the problem.

You're driving Sakura away, you're driving ETL away, you're probably driving lots of other players away. And that kind of arrogance is exactly what I said--toxic. Yes, Bulbazak's play had flaws in it. (Flaws I pointed out.) It'd be pure delusions for you to think there's no fault on you, though. Please, read it when you get the chance.

[mastin2]

I read it. Whoever doesn't like me can stop playing with me.

And if that's the entirety of the site?

...My point exactly, Wisdom. How much praise do you receive for your attitude in games?
How much criticism do you receive?

How many people say "fuck this shit" to you regardless of their alignment and yours?


Again.
I've been here a long time, Wisdom. Take it from me. Everyone who has held your attitude has ended up leaving mafiascum either suddenly without warning, or on INCREDIBLY sour terms. Hell. When I held it, I was a blight on the land. (Yes, I held it at a time, in the arrogance of my MS-youth.) I changed. Please. Consider it.

[mastin2]

fuckin mastin. i told you he's a genius. he just happened to be an evil genius this time.

But seriously, this game wasn't even me at 100%. As I said, most of the work was done for me via the setup. I might be an evil genius (even as town ), but said genius was basically slacking off and playing somewhat-sloppily.

[mastin2]

Improving. In catching scum. I don't care about reputations or whether people don't like my playstyle.

And therein lies the problem, Wisdom.

You can be the best damn scumhunter to have ever walked the earth. It's absolutely worthless if you can't LYNCH scum. And lynching scum requires other town players voting with you. The more you take this attitude, the fewer people will follow you. So while you may think you've improved, you'll grow increasingly isolated as people refuse to go along despite your track record.

More than that. You'll get on a lot of player blacklists, and either be barred from entering games, or cause mass-exoduses from said games and force the mod to reject you--assuming the mod even wants you in their game at all; a lot of players-turned-mods who see the attitude you're currently displaying will quite-justifiably blacklist you until you show signs of improvement.

Yeah, you'll find games, but you'll find progressively fewer and fewer willing to tolerate your antics. Because, bluntly, it's as I said--you're poisoning games. The games are still games, and in games, people want to have fun. Being an arrogant asshole is a good way to destroy it. You've gotten lectures from ETL, Sakura, Bulbazak, and myself as just a start in this game. We're not speaking to you as wounded players. We're speaking to you as honest people. Because trust me when I say...

...The road you're going down is a dark one. It will not go well. I can guarantee it. I know. You're probably writing this all off. You think that I'm wrong, that I'm exaggerating. But...I know what I'm talking about, Wisdom. Please, realize what we're saying here.