Mewbie 1477 ~ Game over

[Alexcellent]

Hi all!

1. You probably are about to vote for some random person you've never voted for before. Why? Why that person in particular?

2. Have you ever played mafia before? IRL or on a forum? Where?

3. What can you give to this game, why are you important here? What role do you think you'll play as the game develops? Do you tend to post in short bursts or in long paragraphs? A mixture?

4. How often can you visit the thread?

1. My first vote isn't random.

2. I've played mafia on and off for about a year or two. I've never played it in person, unless you count the board game The Resistance, in which case yes. I've played it a lot.

3. Sporadic and sparse analysis that is usually useless on day 1 but becomes more useful in the later game provided I survive. I post a mixture, but probably more long posts.

4. I work full-time. I can skim the thread at work during the day being that I'm not a good employee, but usually I can't post until night time and on weekends.

@Trickster, can I ask why all the questions? Reading back over the last few pages, these questions and answers have created an awful lot of fluff to filter through. Albeit I suppose I'm adding to the fluff by answering them.

I think I like you. I, too, have far too much free time. But then again, Mafia is an amazing thing for me. I get a rush from it.

I was wondering though, would you be willing to bandwagon with me on Nachomamma8? As the IC, said player's probably the most experienced player here, and thus possibly the hardest egg to crack. I think if we can crack that egg, we'll have scum begging us to lynch them so they don't have to worry about us coming after them.

Very tempting. A quick search on Nacho indicates he is

very

experienced, so your reasoning is sound. Nevertheless, I want to hear from others first and determine the best course of action from there. Besides, I'm not sure that scum would fall for your plan since you laid it out in the open.

Why so anxious about bandwagonning someone early?
Agree with the latter part of that though. Spelling out your plan makes it fairly null IMO.

As for RandomMidget, I really don't like the very early references to the game setup and the "if we have a tracker or jailkeeper" talk. However! #56 and #58 are interesting. That reaction test reeks of town to me. Not solidifying him as town though, but it's enough for me to not want to jump on his wagon just yet. @Moonlight and @Trickster - what do you think of that vote? Do you see it as scummy?

VOTE: Hanzo5 my vote's going here. Strongly dislike how you came into the game and ignored all the prior discussion and questions and just went along with an RVS vote anyway. #16 seems weak and something about #21 I don't really like either.

[Alexcellent]

Hi all, at work and can’t address everything I’ve seen, just what’s jumping out at the moment. I’ll read more tonight.

Reading back, the only thing I can see is Tr1ckster acting a little bit suspiciously. I don't think he's mafia though.

Can you explain this further? What makes you suspicious of Trickster? And why don’t you think he’s mafia?

I was joking then as you can see from what I was saying earlier I didn't think there would be any useful reaction so my reason stated above still makes sense.

I hate this so much because I don’t know what to make of it.

Randomidget’s early reaction was all kinds of town to me simply because I don’t see a reason why scum would do it. At the time, there was no pressure on midget at all, thus I don’t see him trying to test someone to earn himself townie points. It just came across as a legit solid town play to me. As someone else said earlier (I think it was nacho, I need to do a reread), he could have gotten a gut read from CWTSH’s reaction. She could have had an incredibly scummy reaction accompanied by an omgus vote for all anyone knew, although she didn’t. That’s why it read as town to me and that’s why his sudden change from reaction test to CWTSH looks town and it was a joke bugs me.

Calling it a joke and changing reasons strikes me more as scum straining to do some explaining under pressure. If Randomidget were town, he’d have stuck to his guns.

UNVOTE: Hanzo
VOTE: Randomidget

I think I have to ignore my stupidly strong town read in that one reaction test. I dislike the “it was a joke” and I don’t like the sheeping on the CWTSH wagon. Midget’s all over the shop.

@ThunderBlunder – why do you seem to like Midget’s reasoning that his reaction test was just a joke?

@Hanzo – my vote was on you not for RVS. I had reasons but not strong reasons. Randomidget’s a better place for my vote now.

[Alexcellent]

Whoa this game moves fast!

#223 reeks so incredibly bad and just makes Hanzo look like flailing scum. And an SE self-voting says to me he's either scum or an abysmal townie.
All the same, can I ask that no one hammer til I've caught up a bit? I've got nothing on tonight, I just need to catch up on the last few pages. I promise posts tonight guys, sorry for the inactivity!

[Alexcellent]

Post time, again sorry about my lack of posts recently, meat world's been fair busy.

___
This is a newbie game and all but you claim to be experience.

So i think you should be lynched.

The points you bring up insanely reachy. Its like you made a case out of thin air. Like its not even close! All you basically did was say that I think you are scum because you did not town claim. That could not be further from the truth. Like no this is just no... When you make a case on someone you point to what they have done and said and you discern and reveal the scum motivation behind it. like for instance....

I do have to say, though, that the two uber-veterans have both said I'm strong town... have none of you noticed this yet?

A veteran players read is not something you can just sheep d1 especially since this setup has no conf town. I would think that anyone who is town would understand that anyone could be scum. I dont see town relying on another persons read to persuade anyone into thinking they are town. However i can see why this helps you if you are scum. For one you can NK that person before there read changes and then draw back on how they thought you were town and they are town so you should be trusted. It is in scums favor to try their best to look town without actually helping town. So you saying this shit is scummy to me.
___
Trickster is scum how can on one see this? Lets lynch this foo!

Even if you're town and don't like his play, what makes him scum? The fact that you jump on him and say "you should be lynched" seems scummy to me. It feels more like you're saying "Tr1ckster isn't playing the same way as me so he is scum."

...

Is it just me or is this just a whole bunch of defensiveness?

Honestly Hanzo if you hadn't been screaming cuss words and writing so defensively, my read on you would be weakened... but you were BEAUTIFULLY defensive to (as you said) a lot of reads that were rather reaching. Which is the reason I posted reads that were rather reaching... if you got super defensive off of a whole bunch of responses to your posts that meant little to nothing, you were scum.

It is a big whole load of defensiveness. The problem here is that I don't believe defensiveness to be a scum tell. In the first game of mafia I ever played, someone played identically to Hanzo in terms of defensiveness to the point of being outright near abusive if someone suspected him. He turned out to be town. Townies can get defensive and frustrated when put under pressure. Yet upon saying that, I actually don't hate your "reaching reads" strategy. It's not strong but it's giving me townie vibes.

And here,

Oh god trickster, like what did you really just say "shitty cases are all apart of my plan." Holy hell does that actually work where you come from?

I read this as Hanzo trying to discredit your strategy, which says to me that he is likely threatened by it.

If you must know I'm looking for associatives. Im asking questions to people that have interacted with you. I want to see what they think of you. I'm thinking noobs are more inclined to treat there scum buddy one way than the other.

I wont out that because it kind of defeats the point of my questions. Goodluck with the rest of your games. Hopefully you have to be scum in your next one because the way I see it. I caught you pretty easily. Im so over interracting with you that I skimmed most of your recent post. You seem stuck on the fact that I have to be scum because Im scum reading you(OMGUS).Your Still not answering my questions.Your still not addressing my accusations.

If you're sold on Tr1ckster as scum, why are you trying to explain yourself to him?

Nacho is a busy man. AND he is in more games with me and has not posted. He is not being cryptic he gave you exactly what you asked for. And he gave you some decent advice. Because he is hard to read he is with holding information? these two things are not the same. But hey dont believe me because i think i just figured out why i am so bad at forum Mafia.

Uhhh, chainsaw defense or possible buddying here?

And I know we have another vote to go before L-1 on Hanzo... but let's not put anyone at L-1 yet, alright? I'd like to see how much information we can get before we have to end day.

Why so timid about putting Hanzo at L-1? L-1 puts more pressure. I'd agree with this if we were still in RVS, but there's enough info in this game to warrant someone being at L-1 imo.

I think you are scum. I dont care anymore scrw this game...

VOTE: Hanzo_5

I will let my flip prove you are scum.

This is incredibly scummy, as has been sufficiently covered my multiple people now for multiple reasons.

Self-voting is either A) incredibly scummy or B) at the very least incredibly anti-town, and Hanzo knows this. It's a terrible play and I now view Hanzo as Scumlord Prime because of it.

And I know we have another vote to go before L-1 on Hanzo... but let's not put anyone at L-1 yet, alright? I'd like to see how much information we can get before we have to end day.

Why is that? Do you think Hanzo would self-hammer or someone else might quickhammer him?

I think someone might. And I'd like to find his buddy before we do it..

though the person to quickhammer him might be scum trying to get away with a bus

....

You need to stop doing this.

Not particularly. I think they are providing too much evidence against each other for scum buddies. Actually, that might have explained Hanzo's vote. They could have agreed to take one of themselves down to alleviate the other from suspicion... Hmm... I will think about this. Also I am getting suspicious of Alexcellent. He has been asked to post several times but refuses to.

Where have I refused to post?

As far as what you think about me making a rookie mistake. I am giving up on this town and I am letting them lynch me. With hopes that they will change the way the play and actually learn how to read scum. When I die i do not lose. If town wins I win.

More votes this a way People. Jump on shamelessly no one will think you are scummy, after all scummyness is a town tell.

But if you're town you are damaging the town by self-voting, thus getting yourself lynch lowers towns chances of winning, thus would increase your chance of losing - which is why you are actually scum.

[Alexcellent]

Hanzo is scum #1 with a bullet for me. Initially thoughts had me seeing Hanzo/Tr1ckster interactions as town vs town with both guys having very different approaches to the game. But Hanzo's simply not playing like a townie. The flailing panic when put under pressure and aggressiveness don't sit well with me, although as I said I don't think defensiveness is necessarily purely a scum trait. But his self-vote is a major alarm bell - if he's not scum then he's the most anti-town townie in all of the town.

[Alexcellent]

I'm back guys. I think Hanzo is either Mafia or detrimental to the town.

Unless Tr1ckster is mafia, I think there is no harm in Voting him. Also, if he is scum, we can pretty much assume Tr1ckster isn't.

Unvote

Sorry I had that on you Tr1ckster I haven't been online much and forgot to take it off.
I think Alexcellent is behaving a little oddly, he has an incredibly low post count - 2. I think I'll

Vote Hanzo

for now, but would really like to hear from Alexcellent.

Pretty much agree with what Moonlight said to this.

Question though @randomidget, if Hanzo is lynched and flips town does that mean you will see Tr1ckster as scum?

[Alexcellent]

In chess you don’t sacrifice your own pieces needlessly, you do it if it’s the correct play strategically. If Hanzo is town, offing himself would not at all be the correct play. In fact there are very, very few times in which a townie voting himself would be the right play IMO.

Also, randomidget actually has a good point. Most of your post is spent trying to poke holes in the case against Hanzo while you're skipping over legitimate reasons for him being scum.

If Hanzo is town, why is he voting himself? Keeping in mind that he is an experienced player who clearly knows that self voting is bad.

"I don't know what convinced all of you to vote for him, but the only scummy thing about Hanzo I can think of after all this is maybe that he's voting himself. And even then, that's not really scummy, that's just playing badly."

Your chess remark gives me the impression that you think Hanzo's strategically voting himself to benefit the town, yet here you say he's just playing badly. Can you enlighten me here?

I'll give you time to rev up your chainsaw for your next Hanzo defense

[Alexcellent]

I really am beginning to think that Cwtsh is mafia. She seems like she folded under pressure and stopped posting. One thing about this theory does bother me though. If she is following, why doesn't she just lynch Hanzo to get it over with? Actually, ignore that, most people don't want the day to end yet and forcing it to end is suspicious. Just to make sure this doesn't happen,

Unvote

Vote Cwtsh

No, just, what. Ugh.

We've got pressure on someone already. If you constantly scum read people that aren't active then you're never going to have any solid reads. There are a million reasons why Cwtsh might not be posting at the moment.

VOTE: Hanzo

Your votes are all over the shop randomidget. Anyone who hammers without a claim is scum anyway. I really, really don't like that unvote...

Hanzo's back at L-1 people! No one hammer without a claim and please let's wait for some input from Cwtsh, Nacho and Thunder first.

[Alexcellent]

I really am beginning to think that Cwtsh is mafia. She seems like she folded under pressure and stopped posting. One thing about this theory does bother me though. If she is following, why doesn't she just lynch Hanzo to get it over with? Actually, ignore that, most people don't want the day to end yet and forcing it to end is suspicious. Just to make sure this doesn't happen,

Unvote

Vote Cwtsh

No, just, what. Ugh.

We've got pressure on someone already. If you constantly scum read people that aren't active then you're never going to have any solid reads. There are a million reasons why Cwtsh might not be posting at the moment.

VOTE: Hanzo

Your votes are all over the shop randomidget. Anyone who hammers without a claim is scum anyway. I really, really don't like that unvote...

Hanzo's back at L-1 people! No one hammer without a claim and please let's wait for some input from Cwtsh, Nacho and Thunder first.

Seconded. Random's making me nervous. I don't know, I think I have a larger scumread on Twilight ATM though.

I feel like my current read on Twilight is almost entirely dependent on Hanzo's flip.
If Hanzo were to flip town, would that change your read on Twilight?

[Alexcellent]

Although I suppose if Twilight is scum and Hanzo is town, he would know Hanzo’s town and that he’ll likely be lynched. D2 Twilight looks clean as a whistle because of his protest against the Hanzo lynch? I don't know, Twilight's defense of Hanzo is just weird to me and comes across as more scum motivated than anything regardless of how I look at it.

[Alexcellent]

I’m also thinking too far ahead here probably, and it just strikes me that my last post is pretty wifomy.
I think I need to see a flip before I think any further here.

[Alexcellent]

Wait, what the hell’s happening? Can someone give me the skinny on the wagon on Cwtsh? Why is a lurker at L-1 when there’s been so much scummier shenanigans going on? Do 4 of you actually think someone that’s not even talking is the best place for your vote right now? I must have missed something huge.
I’m at work right now and can't post much more than this, but I’ll be all up in this thread tonight.

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: hanzo hands down scummiest hammer I've ever seen
Will talk more after work today

[Alexcellent]

I too would LOVE an explanation, but first he self-voted knowing it's an awful anti-town play, and now he hammered without a claim. It certainly wasn't a derphammer either, he knew Cwtsh was at L-1.

Also, I'd much prefer that we don't openly speculate about roles right now

[Alexcellent]

I hammered because i have no problem wasting a lynch on a lurker on D1. Could have caught scum as far I know. And now we dont have to worry about sorting him.

I also have an explanation why there wasnt a NK. I dont want to out it just yet though for "reasons". Lets see how this day moves along.

Sounds good to me. I would have a few qualms, but I can completely see where you're coming from.

Why does that sound good to you? You don't think he should have at least asked for a role claim - or at least even waited for Cwtsh to say anything at all? Why are you so okay with this?

@Hanzo, why didn't you ask for a role claim at the very least?

[Alexcellent]

Basically, your own vote stopped you from getting an answer from someone you were supposed to be scumhunting.

VOTE: Hanzo_5

Maybe. (playing devil's advocate a bit..) But imagine yourself in his shoes. You just got off of L-1... and you're scared that you might get back on it.. Knowing that you're town, you take a chance on someone else's death because you don't know what they are and you know that you shouldn't be lynched. You also know that said person hasn't been contributing too much to the actual game.

Do you think that's optimum town play for someone who is actually quite experienced at this game and knows what he's doing? I'd expect that attitude from a new player. I'll admit that it doesn't really make a lot of sense as scum either, but it makes even less sense if Hanzo is town.

[Alexcellent]

Prod dodge, I made some monster posts that seem to have disappeared into the void never to return when the site went down last week, actually pretty frustrated about it. I don't have the time to really catch up right now, I'll try to get caught up tonight or tomorrow if I can. Sorry guys.

[Alexcellent]

So I've mostly caught up, but there's far too much content for me to address at work. There's only so many times I can alt + tab to something worky without getting harassed by my boss.

UNVOTE: Hanzo

Unvoting for reasons, but mainly because votes are flying all over the place and I don't want someone to get lynched before I've had a chance to talk.

Mala, is it possible to get a vote count?

[Alexcellent]

Sorry for the delay all. Walls of text and stream of consciousness incoming.

First of all, guys,

can we please for the love of god stop talking about roles.

I don't care what's happened or who's saying what, do NOT claim unless someone claims intent to hammer you and asks for a claim.

Having said that, I'm going to have to address Moonlight's claim and 394 post.

I've never been so conflicted by a post before. On one hand, it's a super townie effort, and it's hard to read what you're saying and perceive it as anything but town. I love the hell out of your case on Hanzo and Randomidget and I agree with 90% of what you're saying there. I've registered Hanzo as scum since his D1 self-vote, and Randomidget's Cwtsh vote still doesn't sit right with me. He has non-committal reads, wagon hops and almost seems to completely avoid having anything to do with any wagon that might possibly lead to a lynch, which is inherently scummy in my eyes.

However

All of 394 is incredibly premature. Why on earth did you role claim there? Barring super scummy shenanigans from another player, I never really saw D2 ending in anything other than a Hanzo or Midget lynch, I don't think your claim was necessary in the slightest.
On one hand, there is the chance that you're correct - the scum team may very well be Hanzo and Midget and you raise some super good points to support that case in my opinion. But you need to understand that it isn't at all a guarantee and at the end of the day, regardless of how confident you are, you should not have claimed there. I personally hate that we're talking about roles when there are two scum at large. What if we lynch Hanzo or Midget and they flip town? Then your entire role claim has damaged town's chances of winning considerably.
IMO scum's biggest advantage is information - right off the bat scum already knows what alignment everyone has and also have a half decent idea at what the setup is. The last thing we want to do is give them MORE information.
Moonlight, if you're town, you may have saved yourself from a NK, but you increased the odds that a scum NK will find its mark on the other PR.

I definitely agree that fake claiming there is bad for scum. It's an unnecessary gamble - especially for someone who's really been under no risk of being lynched. And perhaps that's why the claim makes me nervous? Despite how unlikely it is that scum would do that, it's not the total suicide that you're claiming it would be for scum.

[Alexcellent]

OOC-Moonlight a lot of the links in your post are going to the wrong game!
___
I would vote with you if we werfe lynching midget based on something other than him being mafia because you think that I am protecting him. I would have bought your case if you pershaps showed some kind of distancing between me and midget. But in fact I was just starting to pressure him before the tigers ate the posts. But your "case" makes it quite obvious that he is 1 of two things. The Jk or your mafia partner.

Im gonna start with I dont believe your claim. I dont believe it because there was no reason for you to claim. And then you safe claimed a role that you think fits with the setup based on your mafia role. So your either trying to draw some claims from people or safe claim.

Now that you have fake claimed and challenged the only other player in the game who has crumbed a PR your trying to push your lynch on him naturally i think you asre trying to 1v1 a town. And that right there is scummy combined with the fact that there is no reason for you to claim and there is no way to prove your claim. Now this would automatically make midget town except your pushing midgets lynch because you think that I am protecting him...

I think its highly more likely that you know his role, and you are bussing him for the cred leading to a day2 ML. The weird thing is why do you want my head so bad? So bad that you are willing to bus your scumbuddy to prove it... What do you think I am moonlight? You cant answer that honestly because that would make you scum.
___
VOTE: Randommidget
There goes your protection theory...

Hanzo, your Midget vote looks woeful at best. It reads more as "I'm going to vote here to prove you wrong" rather than putting your vote where you think it actually should be. I feel like if you were town and actually believed the things you're saying, your vote would be on Moonlight.
Regardless, your midget vote doesn't do anything to prove your alignment or damage Moonlight's case.

Also moonlight your case being a strectch is not a good reason to claim. Like not at all. And you bussing midget is more likely if you are going for the towncred lynch on me tomorrow. which you are. I however am seeing through your gambit for what it really is so it looks likr you just trapped yourself in this gambit that you cant possibly win. Either that or its a really bad town move. And i dont think thats the case. Also are you serious? You cannot say someone is distancing if their is no substantial evidence to back that claim. This is basic mafia theory here... The same goes with making any accusation... There are no absolutes in that. You just cant lie like that is all.

If Moonlight is scum, why do you think he would make a claim like that out of the blue when it's not at all needed?

[Alexcellent]

Hanzo, I think there's something you haven't considered.

If midget flips Roleblocker today, all the JK has to do is target you in the night. If there's a lack of a NK, what does that tell us? Let me guess, that I am scum who deliberately didn't shoot and somehow the real Bulletproof didn't CC because... reasons? And even so, even if I get lynched on D3, all my teammates have to do is lynch you the next day.

I accept this. Do you?

@Tricks: It would make sense for a JK to target me for protection if they're confident I'm Town. So in theory I could have been roleblocked as scum, but the rest of your points are spot on.

I wish the others were around for this.

If you're reading this and you're a 1-shot BP, Cop or Doctor, vote for me.

I want to see what Hanzo will say about that when it doesn't happen.

I REALLY don't like the above two posts, and a case could be made that the above as role fishing. I don't think it's intended as such, but all the same... Moonlight if you're town, saying that is putting other townies in an awkward position. Anyone who decides they don't like your case or something you've said is likely to avoid pressing the issue now. Voting you after the above is the equivalent of painting a bullseye on one's back. I've been trying to avoid saying this but I think I have to: why on earth would anyone counter claim you ML? I could understand a real 1SBP CCing perhaps, but I don't see a cop or doctor killing themselves by coming out of the woodwork and painting a target on themselves by voting you - and I think that's where you're making your mistake. This would all be a lot more acceptable if we at least had one scum flip, but we don't.

[Alexcellent]

Ok So Moonlight says he is BPVT.? No one hammer yet.

Moonlight give us some flavor please, how are you described in you role PM? I mean paraphrase it
, but give us a good idea of how it is worded.?

I'm pretty sure asking or posting any form of a role PM is against the rules.

It seems too scummy to be true, thus he's town? As opposed to doing an incredibly antitown move as scum, he does it as town? Why? If he knows better, he knows better as both alignments. Which alignment is the hammer more consistent with? Which alignment benefits more from that hammer?

This.

Scum gain one of three required mislynches in order to win the game, and a possible shot at an investigative PR that they would have never been able to get lynched otherwise. Town gains...?

This...

Knowing that he's scum, he takes a chance in immediately causing someone's death because you know they are town and that they might be a PR who can save themselves when claimed and you know they aren't you or your scum partner...

And this! And pretty much everything Nacho has said.

@Nacho, what do you think about Moonlight's claim? What do you think of midget?

[Alexcellent]

Nacho, i thought it was implied why i hammered when I hammered after questioning moonlight. I just said it plainly today because I was asked. I did not say anything when moonlight asked after I hammered because I dont like to posture after a lynch.

I talked about alex being scum the way he made an excuse to get on my wagon yesterday. He has been silent all of the rest of today. As a matter of fact when ever I bring his name up he goes silent. I dont know what to make of this and I would be pursuing it if there wasn't a competing wagon with random midget. Midget is even more likely to be scum now IMO and I would love to redeem myself and lynch someone Im more sure is mafia today.
___
We should let random midget speak before anyone decides to hammer him.

Redeem yourself? So does that mean you agree that your D1 play was awful?
I made some major posts against you but they seem to have been sucked into the void.

However I do still think random midget is scum as it has been pointed out before that he has been generally scummy. This at the moment is the best place for my vote. Either him alexcellent.

What do you think of the current wagon on random midget Alexcellent?

I have mixed feelings on it. I think Midget is scummy, but I think you are the better lynch option today Hanzo. Why is your vote best placed with me or Midget and not Moonlight? Did I miss something?

[Alexcellent]

Ams, what exactly made you change your read of Hanzo?

Eh? Ok thought it was clear but basically your case as explained seems pretty tight TBH and believable. Plus if he does swing green you are next.

I still don't understand why Moonie thinks it is Midget and Hanzo TBH. It could be any one........ Why not Alexcellent or me or Nacho??? Why those two?

UNVOTE:

Did I miss something in between these two back-to-back posts? How can you go from saying Moonlight's case is tight and believable to not understanding it 7-minutes later?

[Alexcellent]

OK, I'm back.
Moonlight, I think you should work on your reasons for me and Hanzo being mafia separately. As far as I can see, the main focus is on why we are scumbuddies, not on why we are scum. Hanzo had been putting pressure on Tr1ckster the whole game before I became suspicious. Also, why did I unvote him if he told me to bus him?
Your claim is ... odd. If it is true, then you should have thought that that could have been part of the reason there were no kills in N1. This then tells them that you are an open target if they did target you N1, instead of it being a possibility that they were targeted by the jailkeeper. I'm not sure about this, but if I was the jailkeeper then I would be putting pressure on the person I targeted. The only pressure that I have really seen is you on me and Hanzo, but you aren't the jailkeeper unless you were lying in your claim, in which case there was no point claiming.
I'm really not sure what to think of Hanzo. He could easily just be town and exasperated. I have no idea what I was doing earlier, I don't think there was much decent evidence against him. I will elaborate on this more later, as I have to do homework.

There have been multiple points on why you could both be scum individually.

I think a lot of the evidence against me is based on the assumption I am mafia. Most actions can be interpreted as either town or mafia. If you go in with the assumption that someone is one then you can find yourself not looking at the wider picture.

Well I doubt there'd be any evidence on you if everyone assumed you were town.
The issue is that a lot of what you have done lacks town motivation. You appear to be trying to survive - not catch scum, and you avoid a lot of key questions that are being asked of you.

[Alexcellent]

OK. Here are my reads.
Tr1ckster

Spoiler:

Town - scumhunting, posting lots, open to help
Scum - refusal to answer questions
Read - very strong town

Hanzo

Spoiler:

Town - scumhunting
Scum - Self voting, making stupid accusations
Verdict - weak scum

Moonlight

Spoiler:

Town - scumhunting, making valid points
Scum - haven't seen much here really
Verdict - strong town

Ams

Spoiler:

Town - scumhunting, doesn't try to hide
Scum - reacted defensively to pressure
Read - Weak Town

TwilightCalls

Spoiler:

Town - scumhunting, not trying to hide
Scum - defending people/accusing rather quickly
Verdict - null

Alexcellent

Spoiler:

Town - scumhunting
Scum - lurking
Verdict - Medium town

Nachomamma

Spoiler:

Town - makes some helpful points
Town - lurking, not scumhunting as much
Verdict - Weak scum

Sorry whoever I forgot will post my read on you in a moment.

Two weak scum reads and a whole load of null and town. Non-committal. On D1 you seemed to have "medium-strong" scum reads on Hanzo, but now you have a "weak" scum read. What changed?

[Alexcellent]

What.?

Maybe the meaning in my statement about holes is being missed. I am not saying there are holes in it. I in fact say and continue to say that I find the case strong. What I meant was the whole thing should be a "sure thing". We are at a serious part of this game to go stretch somebody's neck and get it wrong. My whole thing was to say, let's not rush this but make sure it's been fully put to bed before we jump in with both plates and if there are holes they need looking at.

As for Trickster, what. ? If you could give me a hint on what it is I need to be defending myself about then that would be brill.?

Interesting Wagon jump by Alex. Oh and am I misreading Randommidgets post? Are you attacking yourself?

A wagon jump infers that I had jumped to another wagon, I unvoted for reasons provided. Subtle misrepresentation of me there or a miscommunication?

No it's just screwed up Quote tags, and btw all the links still go to the test thread.

Does anyone else find Midgets reads strange??? Everyone is Town, oh except Hanzo... Oh and Nacho? No one else in that pile of scum, hmmmmmm.

VOTE: randommidget

I think you maybe right Moody Moonie, the scum team are more than likely Hanzo and Midget, but to me, Alex is starting to tweak my jingly janglies. Yes scum are scuffing around in Midget, Hanzo or Alex...

In what way am I jingling your janglies?
Why midget over Hanzo?

Trickster, how sure are you that he is town? I am 70% sure he is. But what if he is not? What if he is just lining up a lynch list
to get to a scum win? At the time of my "long walk off a short rope" comment he was saying we should lynch Midget first then Hanzo. His theory, which still holds water TBH, is that he is likely to be Hanzos scum buddy.

depends on who we agree on, what if midget or Hanzo flop town? We just blindly follow Moody Boys lead tomorrow do we? Hang someone else? They flop town.... Then what? As far as I can see you and him are pretty tight as town but what if I am wrong? what if one of you, and in this case old Moonlight here is actually scum? So forgiven my caution, scepticism and suspicion of everyone in this game..... <----- (some dots for you to add to the ones you are trying to add up matey.) I still believe scum is in the trio I pointed to before.

ONE QUESTION TO ALL, why are we ignoring Lurking Alex? Honestly?

Can we leave this kind of discussion for D3 after we see a flip?

Also, not lurking. I work 40-50 hours a week and am in the midst of moving house. And it's taken me a solid two hours or so to get caught up and post. I like that lurking is a legitimate concern of yours amidst what's going on in the game right now.

[Alexcellent]

So in summary...

Let's remember not to talk or theorize about what roles are left in the game and who they might be unless it's absolutely necessary.

I could easily sit here and analyse Moonlight's claim until the inevitable heat death of the universe. It's definitely taken me off guard as the timing of it just strikes me as bizarre... But Moonlight's been the towniest player in this game to this point, and from one vague perspective I can understand what he's saying and his reasoning for claiming - although I don't agree that it was the right move. I'm choosing to continue to read Moonlight as town.

I'm happy to agree that Midget/Hanzo is a very possible scum team. But given all that's gone on, I'd rather see a Hanzo lynch. VOTE: Hanzo

IMO Hanzo is the better choice as I feel there is more information to be gained from his flip on Midget and Moonlight. Furthermore, even if we're wrong about him, we'd have lynched someone that's played incredibly anti-town anyway.
I'm not adverse to a midget lynch, I could get down with that if needs be, but I just think Hanzo's the best wagon today.

[Alexcellent]

I am in the midst of moving this weekend, I'll hopefully have a chance to properly catch up and post either tonight or tomorrow. Let's try not quicklynch anyone til I've posted please

[Alexcellent]

Getting caught up now

[Alexcellent]

This post was prepared during N2 and will be posted ASAP (unless I'm dead, of course).

Before I comment on anything else, I feel that it's important that I come clean now that I'm calm and collected about what happened on D2. Hanzo brought up quite a few points that made me realize he does not understand how my mind works. He called the approach to his game basic and he recommended that I learn to look from an objective standpoint.

No. That's not how I approach the game. I don't believe in objectivity coming from a human mind (I even doubt its very existence outside of it) and I want my teammates and I to work together, because that's the strength of Town: our numbers. Does that mean we should rely on each other being correct or even playing well? Hell no, but we can trust that we mean well and that's vital.

Now then, let me refer back to my claim post. Hanzo pointed out that I'm trying to get him mislynched by using "associatives" that link him with midget and that I leave no room for midget to be Town.

This was very inaccurate and even though I replied to him, my answer was a little unclear. He eventually broke down due to frustration. And I enjoyed that, until he started attacking a player and not a role.

I apologize to the rest of you for that confusion. It's time to explain everything from my own, subjective point of view.

If not for my roleclaim, I doubt some of you would read the following without doubting my alignment. Its intent can so easily be misconstrued, because it relies on observations that could, after all, simply be coincidental and/or biased on my part. The last thing I want is my teammates to doubt my intentions. Feel free to disagree with me, I'm only human and have judged that this is the right play to make at this moment.

This is by far the most

important

part of my post. And Hanzo completely ignored it. He believed I don't understand basic Mafia concepts, because the "associatives" I used were the opposite of what he was using against me. In case you don't understand, there's a key word in there:

observations

.

"Associative" is an adjective that I can only assume refers to "associative tells". None of what followed that quote was looked at as a tell. None. They were observations (or associations, if you prefer) analyzed from the subjective standpoint that they are indeed scum together, a point that resulted from my independent scumreading of them both.

Was it the right play? Not really, because I made several grave mistakes:

1) The assumption that my claim would clear me. In case you don't understand why I thought that (and Alexcellent showed that he doesn't), it's fairly simple in my mind:

a 1-shot BP, Doctor or Cop

should

counterclaim me

in that scenario, without even bothering to say what their role is. It

would

get me lynched,

exactly

because my claim was premature and I would have had squat to fight back with. My buddy would then have to decide if the counterclaim is coming from a BP that doesn't mind getting shot, or if it's actually a Cop or Doctor. And even if they made the right call, I believe that a 1 scum for 1 PR trade is largely in Town's favor. If you disagree, either I underestimate their importance or you overestimate it, so we can agree to disagree. Regardless, I hope you can see where I was coming from and that you're beginning to understand me. There's another flaw with me being cleared, but we talked about that one already on D2.

The reason why I said that it didn't clear is because in my mind, a PR still shouldn't have CC'd. At the time, there were two mafias still about, let's say for example if I were a cop and you came out with your 1SBP claim - I wouldn't have CC'd or voted you then, as that would have been outing me as a PR and I'd have died that night, or possibly gotten lynched that day. Sure, it would have been a given that you would have been lynched either D2 or D3, depending what happened with me, but I would have been more useful to the town if I could investigate again and now on D3 come out and say "I'm a cop and Moonlight is scum and these are my investigation results..." etc etc. The only reason someone would still CC there and kill themselves is if they thought they'd be NKed anyway.
We know now that this isn't the case. Just thought I'd explain why from my position you weren't cleared to me. It wouldn't be a universally shared opinion or playstyle, but it's one that I follow, and if I were a PR and you were scum, I most likely wouldn't have CC'd til today.
The only way you can be scum now is if there's a doctor or a real 1SBP in the game, but given that no doctor has claimed yet, I'd say you're 100% town.

I think this game should end like it started.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Why this vote? Tr1ckster, you seemed to lean more an Ams lynch just a few posts before this. Neither Ams or Nacho chimed in before this - why the Nacho vote there?

[Alexcellent]

Fuck this silence.

Nacho, I want to know why you still have not voted. You're clearly holding back and it's driving me nuts.

I've had my eyes on a certain someone for a while now.

Who's that?

And what do you think of my read on Hanzo?

Nacho is vague. Why the need for vagueness here?

Those two things are very closely related!

Continued vagueness yet more or less implies that he has something of a scum read on Hanzo?

In Nacho's 319, he tries to shoot down the case on Hanzo. At the time this didn't ping as scummy to me, I disagreed with Nacho's defense of Hanzo but it didn't strike me as him revving up his chainsaw by any means.

Moonlight
randomidget
Tr1ckster
Cwtsh
TwilightsCall
ThunderBlunder
Alexcellent (SE)
Hanzo_5(SE)
Nachomamma8 (IC)

Currently, I have pretty solid townreads on Moonlight, Trickster, Twilight, and Hanzo.
I have liked Alex's posts a fucking shitton, and have a less solid but still decently solid townread on midget.

This leaves me with Cwtsh, ThunderBlunder as what I'm currently working with as the scumteam: I have to reread and vet these scumreads in, but people seem pretty fucking transparent this game and so the reads feel right.

Counts Hanzo as one of his solid townreads.
321, Nacho starts a wagon out of nowhere on Cwtsh.

This wagon felt wrong to me in so many ways. Given the amount of interaction between myself, TC, Moonlight, Midget and Tr1ckster - Nacho more or less decided that we were all town and scum was more likely in Cwtsh and Thunderblunder, both of whom had been relatively inactive. It seemed like an incredibly odd change. One minute there was a huge wagon on Hanzo who was self voting and flipping out, then the next minute everyone was sheeping Nacho's wagon on a lurker?

I still don't understand the change in wagon there, and Hanzo's scum flip is reason to re-evaluate that entire wagon.

Cwtsh's wagon consisted of: Thunderblunder (now Ams) who had a grand total of 11 posts before dropping out; Randomidget, who made a mind boggling unvote and vote on Cwtsh, but yet was town; Nacho, as stated above; Moonlight who is confirmed town and Hanzo, who quickhammered in blatantly scummy fashion.

Nacho, why was wagoning a lurker on D1 more desirable than anyone else? There surely had to be scum somewhere in the rest of us yet you jumped on a lurker wagon.

Anywho, Nacho doesn't post again for over a week. Some of that may be chalked up to the downtime/ lost posts? So not really fair of me to point that out. But when he comes back in, his posts are fairly minor but support a Hanzo lynch. It was one thing for him to defend Hanzo's aggressive attitude and self vote on D1, but it would have been another thing to defend the quickhammer on Cwtsh, especially when it's a wagon that he had also jumped on.
Nacho had to bus Hanzo there, it would have looked bad if he didn't.

Nacho is the best place for my vote at the moment. His most informative and analytic post has been his case on TC, which appears opportunistic to me. VOTE: Nacho

Dissect this at will.

[Alexcellent]

Have just finished reading and besides having a small guy inside my loaf going ballistic with a sledge hammer on my drain, I am as stumped as I was yesterday after having a butchers.

Trickster an TC are going at it and they both make some good points and counters, which ain't helping to be honest. It's difficult to see who is being Irish and who is being scummy. And do ya know what it sounds all Joe Brown to me (town). I am convinced Moonie is town as town, nope I see no reason to suspect a wooden horse at my door. So I gotta look at the Nacho guy and ole Alex.

What do we know about em? Not much really both have posted and until Moonie pointed out how Nachos take on TC could be seen from another angle I was pretty comfortable with Nacho, but hmmmm now I don't know. What do we have in Nacho? We'll we have a bloke who is Robin Hood at this game (good). He has been pushing out town and scum stuff since 09, does that make him smell? Not really just good at deodorising. As for Alexcellent, we'll I was suspicious of him Yesterday, still am to be honest. His posts have not been contentious or drawn fire. One post of his has had peeps chewing the fat and this to me is a sticking point. It's the old post about Hanzo.... I smell Calvin Klien in front of me....

VOTE: Alexcellent

Can you give full reasons as to why I am scum? Your reasons thus far have been lurking and cherry picking posts, which you haven't really gone further into. Further to this, you ignored questions that I posed you on D2 and just went ahead and voted me instead. Why do I feel like I'm more of a placeholder for your vote?
Was I really the best place for your vote at the end of D2?
Which post of mine has people chewing the fat?

[Alexcellent]

Why this vote? Tr1ckster, you seemed to lean more an Ams lynch just a few posts before this. Neither Ams or Nacho chimed in before this - why the Nacho vote there?

Pressure.

Why the desire to pressure Nacho over Ams?

[Alexcellent]

Nacho's Short Overview of Scummy and Not-Scummy Interactions:

I think Trickster is awfully quick to start trying to build a voting block, and I'm not sure I think a voting block is a thing I want to get made at this point in the game. He seems very quick to throw suspicion, however light, on Nacho, while he starts buddying up to for who knows what reason.

Scummy:

He is voting Hanzo (scum) while building a case on Trickster (strong town read). This shows him distancing from his
partner while setting in place his preparations to jump off.

This was an RVS vote.

Hanzo comes off as a bit abrasive, but I'm hesitant to read that as scummy. I feel like its really just a play style thing, and he's really just pushing back as much as he's being pushed himself, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Scummy:

This is a soft defense: he hesitates in calling Hanzo town and defending him strongly because he doesn't know if a wagon will swing back onto him and kill him.

Perhaps he's hesitant to call Hanzo town because he didn't have a town read on him at that time - barely two days into the game.

No one has done anything that makes me think they are worth voting, and no one has done anything to make me think voting for Hanzo is a mistake. (No, I don't think Hanzo is particularly scummy, but I don't think he's particularly towny either)

It'll change pretty quickly once I have a reason to change it, but for now I'm satisfied with where its at.

Scummy:

Notice how this follows the earlier trend of "voting scum but not pushing scum": his push on Trickster had become pretty strong by this point, but he still wasn't budging. Why do you think this would be the case for TC as town?

Why would scum TC

not

vote for Town Tr1ckster in favour of RVS bussing his partner?

Hanzo please unvote yourself. There is literally two people claiming suspicion on you, there's no point in trying to off yourself already.

Very Scummy:

Twilight sees Hanzo self destructing a bit, the wagon on him is progressing fairly quickly. He unvotes him and tells him to unvote himself, but he has no reaction to the action itself: this is very unnatural from the viewpoint of a townie who is supposed to be discerning the alignments of others.

Did you not have a similar indifferent reaction to Hanzo self-voting?

I also can't believe people are letting trickster slide with these kinds of plays.

Scummy:

No rage about Hanzo quickhammering? His only anger is directed at... Trickster...?

I am more surprised that TC didn't provide a vote in this post, I'm surprised you didn't bring that up.

There have been a number of goings on in this thread that I don't appreciate. Especially the loss of posts, though the locking didn't help either

I don't think there's much to be gained from expressing myself in great detail at the moment, but I'm okay with voting with the information I have.

VOTE: randomidget

Not sure I'm buying Moonlight's case on Hanzo at the moment, but his case on random plus my case on random is good enough motivation for voting now. I feel like I should talk about this more, but it's pretty late here and I'd like to let everyone have a chance to check in before I try throwing much more on the board.

This is L-1, declare intent before hammering or we're toasting you.

Very Scummy:

:/. This is a nail in the coffin a lot of ways. Twilight is extremely critical of cases on Hanzo, but is pretty willing to hear cases on anyone else. I don't like how he implicitly blames loss of posts, shenanigans in thread for his level of inactivity as of late: it's blaming external factors for his own lurkiness, which is a decently strong scumtell in and of itself.

I feel that this would carry more weight if it came from someone who also didn't lurk through a lot of D2.

I don't see TC as scummy at the moment. I agree that he definitely super defended Hanzo in many places, but in the case of Hanzo, a scum partner would surely bus IMO. I would buy TC as scum more if he changed his mind on D2 and bussed Hanzo after the quickhammer but he never did. He stayed with an awkwardly strong town read on Hanzo (which was unfortunately very much incorrect) throughout all of D1 and D2. Perhaps it was stubbornness or perhaps TC truly believed Hanzo was town, regardless I think it's far too ballsy for scum to continue supporting their partner after he self-votes, freaks out, has massive wagons pile on him and quickhammers a townie.

[Alexcellent]

The reason why I said that it didn't clear is because in my mind, a PR still shouldn't have CC'd. At the time, there were two mafias still about, let's say for example if I were a cop and you came out with your 1SBP claim - I wouldn't have CC'd or voted you then, as that would have been outing me as a PR and I'd have died that night, or possibly gotten lynched that day. Sure, it would have been a given that you would have been lynched either D2 or D3, depending what happened with me, but I would have been more useful to the town if I could investigate again and now on D3 come out and say "I'm a cop and Moonlight is scum and these are my investigation results..." etc etc. The only reason someone would still CC there and kill themselves is if they thought they'd be NKed anyway.
We know now that this isn't the case. Just thought I'd explain why from my position you weren't cleared to me. It wouldn't be a universally shared opinion or playstyle, but it's one that I follow, and if I were a PR and you were scum, I most likely wouldn't have CC'd til today.
The only way you can be scum now is if there's a doctor or a real 1SBP in the game, but given that no doctor has claimed yet, I'd say you're 100% town.

I see. Never looked at it that way before, probably because I'm so used to getting killed when hardly anyone suspects me, so I would have definitely come out and try to get the fakeclaimer lynched there. I hate how often I make the stupid mistake of having an expectation of how one would act just because I know how I would. I need to work on that.

Anyway, looking forward to you fully catching up.

My mind works a lot in the same way, I often play mafia in closed forums with friends and I'm usually lynched early because I let confirmation bias get the better of me.
In any case, a real 1SBP still should have CC'd you in that situation there I think, and perhaps a doctor? I think a cop is too valuable to NK though - but like I said, a lot of people wouldn't share my opinion there.

[Alexcellent]

too valuable to risk getting NK* even

[Alexcellent]

I don't think Tr1ckster is scum. His D1 interactions with Hanzo hit me as townsville and his reactions and voting appears genuine. Another thing that makes me think he's not scum is his quickhammer. If Hanzo flipped town I would have been all over Tr1ckster right now, but he flipped scum. If Tr1ck and Hanzo are the scum team, I don't think Tr1ck would have quickhammered there at all.

I don't think I'll be comfortable with a Tr1ckster lynch.

[Alexcellent]

Have just finished reading and besides having a small guy inside my loaf going ballistic with a sledge hammer on my drain, I am as stumped as I was yesterday after having a butchers.

Trickster an TC are going at it and they both make some good points and counters, which ain't helping to be honest. It's difficult to see who is being Irish and who is being scummy. And do ya know what it sounds all Joe Brown to me (town). I am convinced Moonie is town as town, nope I see no reason to suspect a wooden horse at my door. So I gotta look at the Nacho guy and ole Alex.

What do we know about em? Not much really both have posted and until Moonie pointed out how Nachos take on TC could be seen from another angle I was pretty comfortable with Nacho, but hmmmm now I don't know. What do we have in Nacho? We'll we have a bloke who is Robin Hood at this game (good). He has been pushing out town and scum stuff since 09, does that make him smell? Not really just good at deodorising. As for Alexcellent, we'll I was suspicious of him Yesterday, still am to be honest. His posts have not been contentious or drawn fire. One post of his has had peeps chewing the fat and this to me is a sticking point. It's the old post about Hanzo.... I smell Calvin Klien in front of me....

VOTE: Alexcellent

Can you give full reasons as to why I am scum? Your reasons thus far have been lurking and cherry picking posts, which you haven't really gone further into. Further to this, you ignored questions that I posed you on D2 and just went ahead and voted me instead. Why do I feel like I'm more of a placeholder for your vote?
Was I really the best place for your vote at the end of D2?
Which post of mine has people chewing the fat?

what questions?

No you are not a place thingy. It's simples, I think the TC, Tricks an the Moonbeam guy are different shades of Joe, so that leaves you and the Mexican snack, I kind of think you or him are Captain Hook. So basing my thoughts on your large day 2 horse and trap post where you just pull stuff out and not really do much I think my vote's kosher.


The questions, point at them an I will answer them, while you do that a few questions for you:

I believe you've done that now.

1. Are you threatened by my vote?

Not even in the slightest.

2. Why did you not swing for me off the bat today if, as you have said, I have left questions unanswered? Especially as I had a vote on you yesterday and now?

Does not answering questions at the end of D2 make you scummy? Do you think I should have voted you for that? I have questioned you about it and didn't feel swinging you off the bat to be necessary. Just because you seem to think that I am scum doesn't actually mean I should read you as scum as well.

In post 515, Ams wrote:
Trickster, how sure are you that he is town? I am 70% sure he is. But what if he is not? What if he is just lining up a lynch list
to get to a scum win? At the time of my "long walk off a short rope" comment he was saying we should lynch Midget first then Hanzo. His theory, which still holds water TBH, is that he is likely to be Hanzos scum buddy.

depends on who we agree on, what if midget or Hanzo flop town? We just blindly follow Moody Boys lead tomorrow do we? Hang someone else? They flop town.... Then what? As far as I can see you and him are pretty tight as town but what if I am wrong? what if one of you, and in this case old Moonlight here is actually scum? So forgiven my caution, scepticism and suspicion of everyone in this game..... <----- (some dots for you to add to the ones you are trying to add up matey.) I still believe scum is in the trio I pointed to before.

ONE QUESTION TO ALL, why are we ignoring Lurking Alex? Honestly?


Can we leave this kind of discussion for D3 after we see a flip?

Also, not lurking. I work 40-50 hours a week and am in the midst of moving house. And it's taken me a solid two hours or so to get caught up and post. I like that lurking is a legitimate concern of yours amidst what's going on in the game right now.

What? Leave the fact we are ignoring you or my thoughts on the game at that time?

As for lurking, yea it's of concern as it's fucking shit, and what do you mean by "what's going on in the game right now." but hey your active now so lurking ain't an issue, my recent post on why I am trying to stretch your neck is.

One observation, if you work so much and are moving house, why sign up?

Your thoughts on the game. Debating about who we should lynch on D3 wasn't necessary or beneficial to town, especially with no scum flips at that point in time.

You were essentially making the same horrible move Midget made on D1 when he left the Hanzo wagon to vote for someone that he thought was lurking.
What is your definition of lurking? Do you consider any portion of time someone isn't posting in this game lurking? If someone doesn't post within the span of, say, 24 hours - is that lurking to you?

I put my name up in the SE sign ups ages ago and forgot about it. Admittedly if I remembered that I was in the queue I probably would have dropped out until after the move was done. Regardless - everyone has different levels of activity in this game and you're going to have to deal with it champ.

Ams, what exactly made you change your read of Hanzo?

Eh? Ok thought it was clear but basically your case as explained seems pretty tight TBH and believable. Plus if he does swing green you are next.

I still don't understand why Moonie thinks it is Midget and Hanzo TBH. It could be any one........ Why not Alexcellent or me or Nacho??? Why those two?

UNVOTE:

Did I miss something in between these two back-to-back posts? How can you go from saying Moonlight's case is tight and believable to not understanding it 7-minutes later?

Ave you heard about thinking? It's what I do occasionally when I have nothing better to do, anyways here I had a brain fart after posting and so the second post. Good job it was in my drain as had, it been in my pants, I would have needed to change as it was wet....

I've heard about thinking, it rings a bell. I don't think that change of mind is necessarily scummy but it's curious. In the span of a few minutes you didn't just change your mind, you appeared to completely lose your grasp and understanding of Moonlight's case. That would require just immense brain diarrhea.

Anyway, what do you currently think of the wagon on Nacho?

[Alexcellent]

It's worth a chat and consideration based on my current take of the game, but I find you more scummy, trouble is no one is currently interested in lynching you. Cept me that is. What do you think about it? Nachos wagon that is.

Get a few solid reasons for lynching me and maybe that’ll change hey?

I'm fine with it.

You asked me about lurking, well I think lifting a leg once a day is acceptable as long it has content and not just hot air. trouble is until your post D2 all you had done was tell us what a hectic life you have. Now you are all jibber jabber so I ain't disposed to call you outside on it. As I said it's now down to who stinks more than who, in my mind your diapers been needing a change for quite a while now.....

I feel like the content I’ve posted is fine and accurately reflects my feelings and observations of the game. If you don’t agree with it or don’t like it that’s fine, but on the other hand you haven’t really asked for or pushed for any specific content outside of the couple of questions you just recently asked.
Do you talk like a cockney geezer in meat world too?

You asked me about answering questions? What are you going on about? Maybe you missed my point. Here's my reasoning, until I focused on you I was not even on your line of sight, you asked me some questions D2, Yeap you did and I missed em. Anyways why did you forget about them until after I voted for you and called you out for being scum today, day 3?

... Really?

655 You vote me.

657 I state that I’m getting caught up.

I didn’t even get the chance to post until after you had voted me – and this is suspicious to you? You should probably do a reread.
I didn’t forget about them, I asked you once I became active D3.

Are you in my line of sight?
We’re talking to each other but have I actually voted you or called you scum anywhere? I think you’re either seeing things that aren’t there or you are misrepresenting me. I’m going with the former for the time being.

Seems a bit squiffy that the whole thing only becomes important to you after that happens. Why is that? Seems to me as a bit of a smoke screen to discredit me.

That implies your case had any credit to begin with, but that’s not really for me to decide.

Nah the whole thing pen and inks thinking about it. The questions in themself are pretty wishy washy and fit the MO of someone trying to get by. Bottom line is if TC, Tricks and Moonlight are Joe Brown that leaves you, Nacho and me. You're scum PoE.

So Nacho is town to you then?

Can I see those reads again please Alex? Did you save em?

I’m afraid I did not.

[Alexcellent]

As for Alex's reads, it's been a while, so take what I remember with a grain of salt: he was townreading me and Tricks, null-townreading TC, null on you and Nacho and was scumreading midget and Hanzo. And he did provide reasoning behind each read, but I don't remember that. =/

So basically sleeping everyone else?

“So he sheeped everyone based on these partial second hand reads that were deleted from the website.” Is that what I’m essentially reading here?

If I remember right I had a super strong town read on Moonlight as he’s been the towniest player since D1.
I had null reads on you and Nacho as I wanted more info, but I believe I touched base on Nacho’s D1 wagon change to Cwtsh.
I think I was null-town on TC. If you asked me D1 I would have likely had him as a scum read, but he made a convincing post on D2 that I liked, and I agreed with his case on Midget.
I think I was a bit unsure on Tr1ckster, I think based on his hesitance to vote Hanzo after his Cwtsh hammer.
Midget and Hanzo were scum reads for me. Also keep in mind these were posted and deleted before Moonlight made his claim and case for a Hanzo/Midget team.

Currently:

Nacho – scum read; based heavily on his D1 Cwtsh shenanigans
Ams – null; likely confused town suffering confirmation bias
TC – leaning town; disagree with the case against him
Tr1ckster – town, based mostly on the fact that I don’t think Tr1ckster AND Hanzo could be the team without a solid amount of coordination
Moonlight – confirmed town; if Moonlight is scum I’ll eat my hat

@Ams, you should also remember that the only person confirmed town is Moonlight. If you’re town, you have four suspects.

Why do you think I am scum over Nacho?

[Alexcellent]

Prod dodge, I'll post this weekend <3

[Alexcellent]

Getting up to date, sorry again everyone. Thought about replacing out but the all of my recent busy-ness should be behind me now.

[Alexcellent]

At everyone

what did ya fink of Alex's missing stuff? And what do you all fink of him nowdays?

Very helpful. Very town. It had a lot of good insight that I found interesting and strengthened my read on TC. Forgive me, I don't remember exactly what it was.. >.<

Anyways, it made him a moderate town read in my eyes.

I really don't like to reference posts that have disappeared, but are you able to elaborate at all on how what I posted gave you a stronger read on TC? If you can't then it's no big deal, I'm just curious.

*yawn*

Moonlight. Please. Make up your mind. Your indecision is getting annoying. Am I or am I not town? Is there a better case against someone than mine against TC?

I guess I could put hours of work into it, but to what end? You always end up doubting. Which is the other half of the reason I quick-hammered Hanzo yesterday.

The first half was that I was tired of his shenanigans, the second that you second guess yourself too much. If I'm a solid town read, please, stick with it. If I'm scum, stick with that too. I wish I could hold you to your word when you say stuff like:

I wouldn't lynch Ams any time soon and I'll believe Tricks is scum only if he flips that. =P

But I can't. Because only a few posts later, you're so convinced I'm scum that you...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Trickster

Seriously. What am I supposed to make of this? What would you make of this kind of wishy-washiness from another player, Moonlight?

Pick a read and stick to it. Don't change your vote until you're pretty sure you can hold it there for a couple posts.

As for the argument between TC and I, are you going to say you have a stronger reason to vote for someone else? Because TC is my strongest scum read. Is he not yours?

Also...

I could vote for Trickster, but with me being the only one who is showing suspicion on him its a useless endeavour.

Is this not bugging you? He's certain I'm scum, but he's withholding his vote because it's a useless endeavor? So, he thinks I'm scum, but he's pretty sure he can't get me lynched, so he's not going to vote for me?

To me, this looks like he's withholding his vote to see where you guys are going to vote so he can hammer.

Anyways, Moonlight, make up your mind. I've got to get to sleep.

I kind of don't like this. Pressuring him into making his mind up isn't going to help; especially when you're pressuring him into taking your side. Reads evolve and change through analysis and re-reads and as more information becomes available.
As for TC's 730, on one hand I agree that if he thinks you're scum, he should be voting for you, regardless how useless it may be. But is this not consistent with his voting patterns throughout the rest of the game? He's hesitant with his vote, but I don't necessarily read that as a scumtell. It would be a different story if he was calling you scum and voting a townread though.

1) So? Do you think it's absolutely and utterly ridiculous that scum would decide to vote their partner and keep their vote on a partner while expressing more serious suspicion elsewhere early game? The vote townie, fos scumbuddy is a tell that results from scum wanting to look good just in case their partner went down but not really wanting to engage them or draw too much attention: this would be a textbook example of this. Just because something happens in the RVS doesn't mean it lacks significance completely. After all, if that was the case, we would never leave RVS ever because everything would be meaningless and everyone would know it.

I see the point you're getting at, and I don't think it's utterly ridiculous, but I do think it would be poor form for scum and too obvious. TC's been hesitant with his votes for a lot of the game so his RVS vote on Hanzo and slow change to Tr1ckster doesn't really stand out as inconsistent with his playstyle.

2) He was confident enough to express suspicion on Trickster and wasn't too uncomfortable with the gamestate to float around the possibility of him being scum. He also wasn't too uncomfortable with reads in order to start defusing some of the suspicion Hanzo had early game, aka none of the evidence adds up to Twilight feeling it was too early to call anyone town and you're just providing a faulty defense for him.

Why is his early suspicion on Tr1ckster linked with his early so-so town read on Hanzo? I might be misreading this.

3) I feel this is explained in point one, lemme know if I didn't address it all the way.

I understand point one, but surely the better scum play there would have been for TC to vote Tr1ckster. I think this is too surface level and obvious.

I'm going to address point 4 separately.

5) Why? You didn't think what I pointed out was kind of a big deal?

His lack of placing a vote there on either Tr1ckster or Hanzo stands out far more to me than any rage he failed to express.

6) What does anything I've done have to do with the case I put out? You can track my general activity by searching my posts or asking around, you'll find I've been busy as hell and thus post a bit more sporadically than I used to. That doesn't mean that my points are any less valid: I am the same person and can see the same thing whether I make 10 posts or 200 posts.

Why is him excusing his lack of activity scummy? Why should we think of that as scummy but think of your inactivity differently? For that matter why should people think of mine or anyone's inactivity differently. But why does TC's inactivity excuses rub you the wrong way?
I will say that TC's criticality (is that a word?) of other cases against Hanzo is off though. It means he either tried to defend his scum partner or he had a very solid town read on Hanzo.

I thnk your idea of how a buddy interacts with Hanzo is very narrow minded: I have defended weak scum partners a hell of a lot stronger than TC defended him. I initially was happy to write off the defense as too ballsy to be scum, but certain parts of his interactions with Hanzo ring false and I don't think they should be ignored just because it's unlikely a scum partner wouldn't throw his partner under the bus immediately, especially since we have absolutely no idea what sort of meta TC comes from or what his general tendencies are.

I know this is a newbie game, and there's little info on TC out there.
Can you point out which interactions specifically? I still think TC and Hanzo is far too blatant, and surely if they were the scum team, TC would have changed his tone on D2.

Well this thread got awfully quiet awfully quickly.


VOTE: Nachomamma8

I was already going to do this because of PoE, but especially yesterday a number of things stood out to me about his posts that I didn't like.

Inconsistency: who the hell cares? I'm the picture of inconsistency and the paragon of towniness, so guess that's not a scumtell, just... Inconsistency.

I have a better air tight case for why I am town than anyone else has for anything.

I can't justify why town would ever say this, especially if they weren't going to back it up with anything. It just seems like way too much. On top of that, to me at least, his attitude seems to express more a desire to see me dead than a desire to get scum. He seems to be trying to casually bully moonlight into doing what he wants as if its a matter of course, writing off his reasoning as "paranoia" and "insanity" rather than actually pointing to anywhere where he's wrong. And reading through his ISO, I see nothing that makes me stop and go "oh this looks like it comes from town!Nacho."

All in all, I don't like it. Thus my vote.

Can you point out the bullying?

[Alexcellent]

4) I don't thnk I had an indifferent reaction to anything Hanzo's done this game: I had him as decently strong town Day 1,

then I had him as decently strong town Day 2

. Twilight didn't have the same strength of read on him as I did so the lack of attempt to sort rang strange: there's no reason for me to sort someone who I've already finished sorting.

Nacho's D2 contributions:

445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
496

Every single post excusing 453 are against Hanzo. Nacho voted Hanzo and encouraged everyone else to vote him. I'm happy to leave my vote where it is.

[Alexcellent]

Yuck, that just Pen and Inks. Nope that sounds fucking scummy as fuck

VOTE: trickster

Can you elaborate?

[Alexcellent]

I don't know what you want me to say to Nacho. I know there's not much to build a case on against anyone at the moment that isn't being vehemently defended as town, so I did the best I could, and I ended up going for Nacho. It's mostly PoE, but I've pointed to a few things he's done that I think are scummy. Nacho and many others disagree with my opinion that those things are scummy. I'm not that invested in the case because I know it's pretty thin and I'm not expecting to get out of the lynch anyways.

I dislike this post so much. It can easily be translated as "I'm voting for the easiest target rather than who I think is scum." Regardless of how vehemently people are defending each other, you should stick to your reads. This feels like you're voting for Nacho entirely in the hopes that he's lynched instead of you as opposed to you actually having a decent read on him.
TC's also clearly throwing in the towel. Whether it's a townie or scum who's giving up, I'm not 100%, but I'm leaning town still...

why Nacho Alex? why not TC?

I explained in earlier posts why I'm more interested in a Nacho lynch. I cannot ignore his D1 jump onto the Cwtsh wagon. It's too inexplicably dodgy and weird to me. He hasn't really defended or properly explained it from what I've seen either. Meanwhile with TC I see some of the things people are saying, but I could just as easily see him as town. His most recent post is terrible, but it also looks like he could still be town giving up. There's no flailing or serious attempt to get out of this hole he's got himself in. He's coming across as a townie that's accepted his fate more so than scum who doesn't care any more.

@Ams, what makes you see TC as scum who's thrown in the towel more than town?

I'll try and address other posts if I get time before the day ends.

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE: Nacho

I'll post why after work, but that unvote and post can only be town motivated

[Alexcellent]

I'm not happy with Alex.

... said my gut to me a dozen times in the last 2 weeks, but when I ask it why, it replies with "... Because".

what need does scum have to explain themselves in a situation like this?

*points at your unvote* That, perhaps? What makes you confident TC has given up and his whole "nobody cares what I think" approach is not an effort to avoid getting lynched through AtE?

Thank you for explaining your D1 reads.

UNVOTE: Nacho

I'll post why after work, but that unvote and post can only be town motivated

Hooold on mister.

If you believed that Nacho is scum before these posts, why is his unvote having this effect on you? If he is scum, I'm sure he's known that his stance today would make things tough for him on D4. And now he's backpedaling. And you give up on your scumread on him as a result. Huh?..

Something is very wrong here and we're running out of time.

PEdit: I'm so tempted to hop on Alex. *ponders*

Because that unvote makes little sense as scum. If Nacho’s scum, the correct play for him is surely leaving his vote on TC who’s lynch was imminent. Unvoting and pushing a case on me probably isn’t in his best interest there. This explanation is wifomy, but I don’t think that Nacho would suddenly do a 180 like that if he were scum.

[Alexcellent]

I definitely can't deny the level of WIFOM involved, but straight up from where I’m sitting, if Nacho’s scum he would have left his vote on TC. He has more to gain from that than he does from pushing a case elsewhere IMO.

[Alexcellent]

Whoa this game moves fast!

#223 reeks so incredibly bad and just makes Hanzo look like flailing scum. And an SE self-voting says to me he's either scum or an abysmal townie.
All the same, can I ask that no one hammer til I've caught up a bit? I've got nothing on tonight, I just need to catch up on the last few pages. I promise posts tonight guys, sorry for the inactivity!

Based on Alex early aggressiveness, it seems inconsistent with his "Hanzo is so fucking scum" mindset for him to be so... cautious around Hanzo actually getting lynched? Essentially, the difference between being an insanely hard bus and a hard bus is how comfortable you are with your partner getting lynched: this shows Alex as a scumbuddy could still be trying to make sure his buddy wasn't lynched quite yet. This in isolation is fine, of course, it is protown to wait, but this isn't the only time this happens.

The fault in this is that as town, I wouldn't want to see a lynch happen without being caught up.

Hanzo is scum #1 with a bullet for me.

Initially thoughts had me seeing Hanzo/Tr1ckster interactions as town vs town with both guys having very different approaches to the game.

But Hanzo's simply not playing like a townie. The flailing panic when put under pressure and aggressiveness don't sit well with me, although as I said I don't think defensiveness is necessarily purely a scum trait. But his self-vote is a major alarm bell - if he's not scum then he's the most anti-town townie in all of the town.

I didn't notice any inferences of Hanzo-town in your ISO: while you addressed both in tandem the overarching theme of your wall was very distinctly pro-Trick, anti-Hanzo.

Hence why I said thoughts.

Wait, what the hell’s happening? Can someone give me the skinny on the wagon on Cwtsh? Why is a lurker at L-1 when there’s been so much scummier shenanigans going on? Do 4 of you actually think someone that’s not even talking is the best place for your vote right now? I must have missed something huge.
I’m at work right now and can't post much more than this, but I’ll be all up in this thread tonight.

This seems like a pretty weak-wristed defense of Cwtsh: and, of course we don't really have the chance to analyze this reaction further because quickhammer, but I hate the way he is acting willing to be sold on the wagon (I must have missed something huge!) when he pretty solidly had his Hanzo scumread.

I don't like this. I feel like everything else I said there contradicts the spin you're trying to put on my post. On top of that, I never actually said or even implied that I'd be willing to switch wagons, you're putting those words in my mouth to try and justify your vote on me.
But! Having said that, I totally would have been open to another wagon IF someone else had done something scummy enough to have warranted me shifting from Hanzo to elsewhere. Albeit it would have had to have been something incredibly scummy, like a written confession as scum.

[Alexcellent]

Moonlight
randomidget
Tr1ckster
Cwtsh
TwilightsCall
ThunderBlunder
Alexcellent (SE)
Hanzo_5(SE)
Nachomamma8 (IC)

Currently, I have pretty solid townreads on Moonlight, Trickster, Twilight, and Hanzo.
I have liked Alex's posts a fucking shitton, and have a less solid but still decently solid townread on midget.

This leaves me with Cwtsh, ThunderBlunder as what I'm currently working with as the scumteam: I have to reread and vet these scumreads in, but people seem pretty fucking transparent this game and so the reads feel right.

With regards to Twilight townread: I thought Twilight's early game was strong, regardless of his alignment. I will go dig up some specific things that made me townread him at the time if that helps you at all, Alex.

My townread on Hanzo was based on what I know regarding his town game and his scum game. In his town game, he says a lot of things that make him mislynchable (read: bad logic, strange moves that aren't easily explained), and so I usually hold back scumreading him since lynches against him can snowball so quickly. Here, his entire behavior around Trickster and aggressiveness on that front seemed mostly like his town self: I hadn't seen his scumgame before, but I've heard it was passive, restrained, nothing like his town game.

Will dig up what made me townread Alex early game, but I liked your tone.

What made me vote Cwtsh over ThunderBlunder at the time was the fact that I thought it would produce a better response: Cwtsh seemed the more active and transparent player, so I expected turning up a bit of pressure against them would have a more impressive response than just voting for lurk city.

Fair enough I guess? But between me, Tr1ck, Hanzo, Midget, Moonlight and TC - you surely couldn't have seen everyone as town there. Surely you can see why stepping away from the Hanzo shitstorm and voting someone who wasn't all that active appears strange.

[Alexcellent]

Wait. So you're just going to let them make you lynch a player you once considered slightly town without an argument? What is this? I don't have a problem with an Alex lynch.. I have a problem with the fact that too few people seem to have a problem with who we lynch. >.<

Why don't you have a problem with my lynch? You've had me reasonably as town throughout the whole game and just recently you were sold on TC as scum.

[Alexcellent]

Alex:

Here's where things get fun.

D1: Votes for Hanzo with his first post while planting seeds for a jump on midget. (Similar to Nacho's argument for TC voting for Hanzo while preparing for Tricks)

I was observing midget's play, and was also one of the few people that saw his reaction test as a townie move.

He switches with his second post.

There are about four pages worth of content between me "planting the seeds" and actually voting Midget, for perfectly apt reasons that I provided.

He starts going after Hanzo again on page 11 and I can see that as a possible bussing attempt. On the next page, 278 shows him correlating TC's flip with Hanzo's flip (

keep that in mind

). Hanzo boldly declares Tricks & Alex are scum together and doesn't give up on Alex for the rest of the game. Alex's last post of the day is even used by Hanzo to attack him further. Distancing much?

Hanzo's attack on me was scummy in general, he never had anything to back up his accusations against me, they were straight up attacks. I assume they were attacks because I continued to try and get his lynch on D2. But this is wifom.

D2: Goes after Hanzo from the get go. Sadly, the majority of his posts from that day are gone. But his next post triggered what became a gut scum-read on him after the flip:

So I've mostly caught up, but there's far too much content for me to address at work. There's only so many times I can alt + tab to something worky without getting harassed by my boss.

UNVOTE: Hanzo

Unvoting for reasons, but mainly because votes are flying all over the place and I don't want someone to get lynched before I've had a chance to talk.

Mala, is it possible to get a vote count?

Mainly

being the keyword. The rest of his reasons were never revealed. Considering his confidence behind scumreading Hanzo and how Hanzo made himself look even worse as the day went by, what reasons could he have? 511 came from me as a reaction to that. Much like Tricks, I didn't want Hanzo to escape another lynch. In hindsight, it would have been more useful if I didn't post that, but oh well.

This sucks because I legitimately had an alternative reason for unvoting, I think it had something to do with the back and forth between Ams and Tr1ckster, but I can't remember, this is going back a few weeks ago now, sorry.
But yes, mainly I saw a lot of voting, unvoting and shifting of votes. I didn't have a chance to post while at work and I didn't want a lynch to happen until I was 100% caught up.
I re-voted Hanzo a few hours later. If I'm scum, what did I have to gain from that unvote, Moonlight?

Predictably, Alex goes after Hanzo again, he doesn't have much choice. But he does leave midget as an option with 525, even though midget raised all sorts of "I'm not a VT" alarm bells with his posts on that day.

I don't find this overly fair. I could use the same argument against anyone. I could push off a scumtell on anyone who suspected Midget as scum on D2 (especially later D2), but given that a lot of people were sheeping you and most people had Midget as a decent scum read on D2, I'm not sure why I'm being singled out for it.

D3: Goes after Nacho in 661, saying his case on TC is opportunistic. Much of that case analyzes what TC posted on D1. Did you keep in mind what Alex said on D1 regarding TC's flip? Why was it okay for him to say that on D1, but Nacho linking the two on D3 is opportunistic?

I changed my view on TC on D2. It would be detrimental for me to keep the same mindset and view on everyone throughout the entire game. Nacho says very little throughout D2 except for pushing the lynch on Hanzo, then he jumps on who is pretty much the easiest target on D3, TC.

673 is interesting. He says he won't be comfortable with a Tricks lynch. In 709, he's leaning Town for TC and considers Nacho a better option (and perhaps Ams too). He is defending TC with 819, but 820 makes it look like a stepping stone for justification of his vote. And as TC got closer to the lynch, what did he do?

Nothing. His vote remained on Nacho, without really pushing that hard. Despite leaning Town on TC (and being the only one at the time to still read him as such), he didn't say anything to prevent it. 853 reeks. Still "leaning Town", what a convenient "I-think-he'll-flip-Town-but-won't-do-anything-to-stop-it" read.

I don't know what TC's alignment is, I don't know if he's town or not, so I'm not going to rally to protect him as if he is town. I stated my feelings and thoughts on Nacho and TC. Is it a scum tell that I didn't jump out and try to shoot down every case against TC? The only person in this game that I would outright shoot down any attempt to lynch is you Moonlight.

I believe he was waiting to use TC's flip as ammunition for a case against Nacho on D4.

Unfortunately this is all a hunch and what I may or may not do in the future shouldn't impact the present of the game. If I somehow were to survive to day 4 and push a case on Nacho, then everyone's welcome to refer to this post and do what they wish with the information.

Read:

Scum

(Yes, I know I've left out things I actually

liked

from Alex and I know that there are a few things up there that might have been the result of him being busy in the meat world, but there's still plenty of things I dislike all things considered and I'm much happier about my gut read and vote right now.)

@Moonlight, your case against me (and Nacho's) are both flimsy. A lot of it is based on hunches and the points you make against me just don't hold a lot of weight. I haven't done anything scummy, simply because there's no scum motivation in my play. I'm kind of glad that there is some pressure being put on me for a change, although I dislike the timing of it. But you could do an ISO of absolutely anyone in this game and pull a "case" against them out of nowhere if you really wanted to push them as scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with me.
What I do dislike about all of this is that the case against me is based on flimsy logic and "gut" readings. Town has one mislynch left, you shouldn't spend it trying to justify a gut read.

[Alexcellent]

By my count we have just over 24 hours. It's 11:30pm here now. I'm going to post after work tomorrow, I hope that's not cutting it too close.

[Alexcellent]

Jesus fucking Christ what the fuck, why the hell did you hammer me without letting me talk??? What the fucking shit??? Scum is 100% Ams after that, lynch him D4! Don't even let him talk, just lynch the shit out of him

[Alexcellent]

Just kidding, I was scum, well played guys.

[Alexcellent]

Especially Moonlight, extremely well played, really impressed with your analysis through the game.

I really should've just sheeped the TC wagon and not pushed Nacho.

[Alexcellent]

Thank you for the kind words ^_^

@Tr1ckster, if I were town I like to think I'd have still had a really strong town read on you, especially after your D1 performance.

Also kudos to Hanzo, I've never had such an aggressive scum partner before, it was actually really fun and I'm shocked that he wasn't lynched D1. If I could have justified it, I probably would have tried to jump onto a Midget wagon D2 but I just couldn't do it without looking awful.

All in all well played everyone, this was a good game!

[Alexcellent]

I like that every hammer was a quickhammer

[Alexcellent]

Thanks for modding too, Mala!

[Alexcellent]

Funny thing, my brain kind of died during N2, and even though I KNEW the setup after Moonlight claimed, I completely just forgot and stopped thinking. A big part of the reason I NKed Midget was because of his JK remark, even though it wasn't possible for him to be a JK. But really I also have a feeling that he might've targeted me N1, but I'd be pretty interested to know who Midget targeted too.

[Alexcellent]

LOL.. Alex.. if Mala comes in and posts.. and you're really town and you were trolling us all along... I will strangle your dead body. Just saying. xD

Hahaha I wish