Newbie 1485: Water Balloon Battle Royale (Game Over)

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely IC. I am expected to help you learn to play the game, particularly in the context of this forum. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your theory questions truthfully.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

I also want to get this out now so as not to interrupt gameplay later:

HELPFUL TAG TIME

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[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?uid=20055&f=11&t=42887&start=0]Newbie 1485[/url]

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Newbie 1485
And link you to that url (this one is this game).

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[spoiler]OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING[/spoiler]

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OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING

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[spoiler=A SPOILER??]IT IS[/spoiler]

which looks like

Spoiler: A SPOILER??

IT IS

Some mods are fine with spoilering of REALLY BIG WALLS O' TEXT. Some are not. If in doubt, ask.

/IC wall

[goodmorning]

What color is everyone's water balloon? I'm a dark green one.

I don't know what this means, but generally I should say that if it means what I think it means, then
1. Purple, and
2.

Vote: reinoe

[goodmorning]

Froth can be town for now.

Am I seeing a certain reticence to interact with the IC or am I just imagining it?

[goodmorning]

Well goodmorning, I would surmize that it is just a fabrication of your subsistence.

I can use big words too.

I see.
Any comments on the gamestate as yet?

Am I seeing a certain reticence to interact with the IC or am I just imagining it?

It may just be the general fright of engaging a player who has a good bit of knowledge and knows how to respond to many things.

Why should Town be scared of engaging?

Am I seeing a certain reticence to interact with the IC or am I just imagining it?

There's been like 10 posts bruhhhh.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I was just seeing what everyone else had to say to begin with but hi guys

Hello there. Any thoughts?

Froth can be town for now.

Am I seeing a certain reticence to interact with the IC or am I just imagining it?

I agree on Froth.

Thoughts on 3dice? I say scum.

You know, I'm not quite sure yet. From what I've seen of his playstyle he ought to be fairly readable for me once the game really gets going though.

Frost can be town for now though.

First day is almost always completely random.

What do you mean?

[goodmorning]

First day is almost always completely random.

What do you mean?

So little information to go on when making decisions.

Well, there are two weeks in which to gain the information with which to make the decisions...

Newbie game question here aimed towards those more experience than I (I've only been in one other online game): what exactly do you (specifically you) look for within the first few posting days?

If I'm looking for Scum, I look for people who maybe don't quite make sense, I look for motivations that don't seem right, and I look for any little thing that looks a bit off.
Usually I look for Town on D1 though and the Scum follows naturally.

It may just be the general fright of engaging a player who has a good bit of knowledge and knows how to respond to many things.

Why should Town be scared of engaging?

Town can be scared to engage a player with more experience and more knowledge because they know that they are town, they just don't want to be mispinned as scum, and not know what to do. Or at least that was my perspective in my first game or so. Town really shouldn't be scared of engaging you though, it just sometimes happens that way.

That is a very good answer. Hmmmm.

[goodmorning]

vote: goodmorning

Good.

Was that random or do have some secret way to just tell???

I'm going to point out that there's no "secret way" to figure out whether you think someone is Scum.

You're shady.

Elaborate on this. If it's coming from where I think it's coming from...

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning - Is Breshke scum?

I don't know. He has one post and there's no content in it. Is it weird that he said he wanted to see what others were doing before he posted himself? Maybe. Is it that unusual a thing for a newb of either alignment to say? Not really.

[goodmorning]

Where do you think I was coming from?

Roughly there.
I expected you might also mention the naked voting. That you didn't is, I think, actually better.

Reinoe is coming off scummy but that is going off almost nothing. Dwsnsl5 and goodmorning in my eyes are the top town for now.

What has reinoe posted that makes you think he is Scum?

[goodmorning]

What's your opinion on him goodmorning?

I don't really have much of one. He also hasn't posted much content.

My vote for Breshke was initially a practically random and silly vote and it was erroneous to boot. But now I'm actually getting a scum vibe.

What's giving you the Scum vibe?

Goodmorning - Is Breshke scum?

I don't know. He has one post and there's no content in it. Is it weird that he said he wanted to see what others were doing before he posted himself? Maybe. Is it that unusual a thing for a newb of either alignment to say? Not really.

So you're postponing a read on him. Gotcha.

Well, right now he's Null. I really couldn't say either way with any hope for accuracy.

It’s not uncommon for the entirety of day one to be Random Voting Stage.

Wellllll it kinda is here.

Looks like a fake reason and not a silly reason for being suspicious. See the part highlighted in red. Breshke can’t “slip up” if his posts are few and far between. And his posts are largely lacking content unless someone is prodding him.

This is not bad at all.

Vote: Lootifer

So now I have Froth, Frost, dws, and reinoe as light townreads. This game is easy.

[goodmorning]

Question about strategy...

what, if any, is the benefit to a town not posting often?

What, if any, is the benefit to a scum not posting often?

What are some strategies for generating content?

1. Not a lot. Sometimes if you're doing a reaction test that requires you to shut up until the person you're testing answers maybe? Sometimes to observe when you don't have anything to say can be helpful, but participation is usually better. Occasionally, if you're a PR and you don't want to be too obvious a target, but then trying not to be a target can make you a target...
2. To avoid slipping. To avoid having to try to look Town.

I'm going to add to 1 and 2 when I say that even though the reasons for Scum to lurk are better than the reasons for Town to lurk, Town still lurks just as much as Scum. Lurking is therefore not that indicative of alignment.
Now, if you add meta to it then it can be, but that's quite different.

3. As Town: If you see anything odd, point it out and explain why. If you see anything you think is Townish, point it out and explain why. If you want someone to explain something, ask them to explain it.
As Scum: Try and act like you would as Town.
Gradually, you'll start to gain strategy as well. But this is a place to start.

Also:

My vote for Breshke was initially a practically random and silly vote and it was erroneous to boot. But now I'm actually getting a scum vibe.

What's giving you the Scum vibe?

I don't get the Frost town read though. Explain.

I went back and looked for the posts where the read apparently sprung from and I'm not quite sure myself. I think it was the wording of his RV? I should take notes.

IC scum buddying up to the newbies to make the game easier on them.

That... would be a pretty interesting strategy. I ought to consider that next time.

The game obviously isn't easy enough or you'd have me as obvtown.

1. Obviously you wouldn't know, as I'm fairly sure we've never played, but I have a fairly strong base in meta. I have no meta on you. You are therefore going to take me a while to read, as will Lootifer. I'll get there eventually.
And before you say something about me not knowing any of the newbs' meta: I can compare them to similar players (like I did with emerald in N1451) or I can compare them to the general standard of newb play.
2. By calling yourself obvtown you have just committed a minor scumtell in my book.

Don't know. Let's see if GM busses me this game, and I'll tell you.

ilu 3dice

I'm actually thinking bjc is town. Most scum players would overreact to a slip of the tongue and vote me. The fact that he didn't is very telling.

maybe that's just what he wants you to think

Generally, in Newbie games, we (the experienced players) don't tend to make much of terminological inconsistencies because they happen a lot.

[goodmorning]

The game obviously isn't easy enough or you'd have me as obvtown.

2. By calling yourself obvtown you have just committed a minor scumtell

in my book.

nah

yah

[goodmorning]

Regarding why I think Breshke is scum please see post 62.

I am silly.

Are you guise up for a day one massclaim??

haha, fuck off

stop looking for the prs you obvious fool

What is everyone's experience with Mafia?

Well, after playing occasionally IRL for around a decade, I came across it on another site a year and a half ago, and came here about a month later.

For those who have played on this forum before can I get a link to some of your previously played games?

If you click the wiki button in the corner of my post, I have all but my 22 most recent games up on the wiki, and will probably be working on putting those up this weekend.
You can find the 22 (plus 2-4 ongoing, so be careful not to talk about those) by clicking on my name, then "view their topics" in the bottom right.

Why keep to urself bro?

Seconding this question.

[goodmorning]

Also noticed I called out 3dice for not addressing my earlier assertion yet didn't in turn address the vote on me from GM... hypocrite much Loot? Anyway, I presume it is mostly a PoE thing GM? Can you explain why you chose me over bjc? Or is there something more substantial behind your vote?

1. Part PoE, part that I have certain activity expectations of SEs.
2. Why would it only be between you and bjc?
3. I wouldn't be looking for "substantial" on page 3. It was more due to me not wanting to have my vote on reinoe any longer than any massive issues with you.

You guys are buddying up, and thats pinging my scumdar a little.

...who's buddying up?


So why does them being gut mean you can't say them?

PEDIT: I thought we already were.

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning, could you go into some more detail about your vote for Lootifer?

What do you mean?
As I've said, I had 3 reasons:
1. I didn't want to be voting you anymore,
2. Process of Elimination narrowed it down to Breshke, 3dice, Lootifer, bjc (at the time. Now I'd probably replace 3dice with frost),
3. Of those, Lootifer was not up to the activity expectations that I held. SEs get much less slack on that for me than Newbs, for obvious reasons.

Now, are any of his more recent posts townish enough to unvote him? Eh.

Yeah. Maintaining the wiki is tough. I spent minutes

!!!minutes!!!

creating my wikipedia page.

Well, if I would just spend minutes on it every time a game finished then it wouldn't be such a problem. But I end up getting lazy and then the games start piling up and 2 months later I'm sitting on ridiculous numbers of games that I don't even remember.

If I didn't do Newbie games I'm not sure I'd do it even that often.

[goodmorning]

That came out wrong. Your wiki page is really nice and I look forward to stealing your format.

Nah, it came out fine. I got the joke, just bad at joking back. Formatting is hard. I sort-of stole it off ffery and Wisdom. Wisdom's is all colorful and shit.

Back from Spring Silliness.

@3dice: Why does bjc look town to you? I don't see anything town coming from him.

This post is kinda unsatisfying given the length of time you were away. What do you find scummy about bjc again?

Anyway imkingdavid replaces richardfrost.

heyyyy i remember that guy

sup

[goodmorning]

hi guys! catching up

Unvote

while I read.

ffery!

Sorry this is literally my first game and i didn't really know where or how to start posting hence i was just kind of seeing what everyone else was saying

Reinoe is coming off scummy but that is going off almost nothing. Dwsnsl5 and goodmorning in my eyes are the top town for now.

Vote: Reinoe

This is one of the few games where I've replaced in to a newbie slot and agreed with their first FoS.

noooo you don't

ffery don't do this to me

[goodmorning]

This is one of the few games where I've replaced in to a newbie slot and agreed with their first FoS.

noooo you don't

ffery don't do this to me

Don't do what?

Don't be Scum.

On balance, although posts 36 and 58 pinged for me, reinoe's overall posting doesn't look all that scummy.

I am both relieved and worried about this now.

[goodmorning]

Looks like you have a goodmemory (I hope all your memories of me are good?). To be honest I couldn't specifically remember playing with you before, so I looked it up. It was that one game (1377) where that one dude (Tamuz) was trying to use an algorithm to figure out the game. Blegh (not my favorite game).

Nor was it mine, owing to any number of things.
I think I confbiased myself into Beli's first mislynch on your slot eventually. I'll have to make sure I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing from you.

I have a fairly strong base in meta

physician, heal thyself.

shhhhh i don't know what you are saying

[goodmorning]

Question for anyone: what is "tunneling". It is not in the mafia wiki.

Small description of it here.

guys reinoe is so town it hurts

[goodmorning]

I forget whether I said this already, but bjc is Town.
reinoe is Town.

ffery is unsettling.

[goodmorning]

Which recent history are you referring to?

[goodmorning]

Because I didn't think I'd made it that obvious before?

[goodmorning]

Which recent history are you referring to?

Thad's neighborhood.

Ah. I had forgotten you were in that. I blame Bulba.

Because I didn't think I'd made it that obvious before?

And you felt the need to because..?

Obvious reasons, I would have thought. Doesn't really help when nobody's around.

Seriously GM if you have a problem with me spit it out. This freefloating paranoia crap isn't helping anyone develop reads on either of us.

I don't though, it's just "freefloating paranoia crap," as you so eloquently put it.
Give me a little bit, I think it's pretty much out of my system for now.

Seriously GM if you have a problem with me spit it out. This freefloating paranoia crap isn't helping anyone develop reads on either of us.

Where did this emotion come from?

It came from ffery.

[goodmorning]

there's definitely scum on my wagon.

Who's the Scum on your wagon? Because from where I stand your wagon might just be all town.

No I don't.

Someone that has barely contributed at all doesn't get to say "sell me the case on player X."

Hey post g from my phone. If there's scum on your wagon who is it?

I don't know. I would have narrowed it down to GM and 3dice if bjc had been on the same wavelength as me; but since he's not I am not going to rule him out (though he's the towniest of the three).

OH U

I was going to move my vote, but this "scum is TOTES ON MY WAGON" shit makes me think this is Scum looking for the lazy way to "scumhunt" so.

[goodmorning]

Reading back, he certainly backed off you rather sharpish when you asked about stuff on P1. But then again, I'm lazy and the Lootifer wagon seems equally good...

[goodmorning]

Nah man switch to Froth.

K.

Vote: Froth

And why do people obsess over meta?

It might be because I'm lazy, but I've only used meta once maybe. Perhaps twice, but I never use highly detailed comparisons; I just go by feel when I do it. I don't think it's hard to alter meta, naturally or unnaturally.

[IC STUFF]For me, it's that I really really know how some people play. There are some players (Zaicon, SafetyDance, maybe emeraldemon, Wisdom?) that I feel confident reading all or most of the time simply based on how they are and how I am. Then there are players (lots, but ffery would be a decent example) that I have some sense of how they play but wouldn't trust it as anything more than a tool or guideline to start out thinking along. I'm trying to get better at dumping meta reads on players in the latter list when it's lategame, but I seldom make it to lategame, so it's been difficult to practice.[/IC STUFF]

I was going to move my vote, but this "scum is TOTES ON MY WAGON" shit makes me think this is Scum looking for the lazy way to "scumhunt" so.

*shrug* it's by far the most likely scenario. If there wasn't then there's two scum between 5 players, 2 of which are newbies; odds are at least one of them would have jumped on board. The next quote

does

have renioe jumping on board, but that was a long time in coming so I am still inclined to think there's scum in you/3dice/bjc.

VCA is bad. I don't like it and it doesn't really work, because too many assumptions have to be made, like the assumption you're assuming now.
I only ever use it to look at the voting patterns of individuals (and occasionally, to identify whether counterwagons occurred and why), because that doesn't assume that any number of any given alignment are going to be voting anywhere.

Now before this day is out I want reasons from bjc, GM, 3dice and renioe that do not include "he hasn't contributed at all" or delicious vats of confirmation bias as to why exactly I am scum. Not for my purposes, I wont even reply to them if you'd prefer; but I want them on record.

OK. Besides the fact that you haven't been up to my standards, activity-wise:
-I'm not seeing you try to solve the game. You gave a couple reads and said the rest were gut and you didn't want to share them. I don't understand why you think openness makes it hard to find Scum. I usually play pretty open and I usually can end up at least half-right.
-(associative tells; does not count for purposes of this particular argument but want it noted) lots of focus on Froth early in the game with almost none on anyone else.
-I haven't seen a definitive opinion on anyone recently.
-You didn't answer my question in 99.
-

I was going to move my vote, but this "scum is TOTES ON MY WAGON" shit makes me think this is Scum looking for the lazy way to "scumhunt" so.

-From the same post:

I am still inclined to think there's scum in you/3dice/bjc.

*

was

, less sure now of scum being amongst the three earlier voters, but still fairly sure there's scum on my wagon.

The scumminess comes from knowing I am town. From my PoV flopping onto a wagon and putting a towny at L-1 without adequate reasoning is poor play or scum. As I said earlier you need to get your own read on me (sheeping is fine in some situations, but here it's not) otherwise you risk mislynching.

Do you really think Town never put Town at L-1???

I'll have to make sure I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing from you.

Which is?

Well, nothing yet.

In fact, I don't know why GM or 3dice are still voting him. Care to explain?

^See my explanation to Lootifer.

Lastly, VOTE: bjc
Because I've declared you shady since the beginning and it's becoming a pain trying to talk to you.
Seems like the most sensible thing to do right now.

The timing of this vote is 200% terrible.

[goodmorning]

not froth. sheeping bjc about froth?

Why not?

[goodmorning]

OK. Besides the fact that you haven't been up to my standards, activity-wise:
-I'm not seeing you try to solve the game. You gave a couple reads and said the rest were gut and you didn't want to share them. I don't understand why you think openness makes it hard to find Scum. I usually play pretty open and I usually can end up at least half-right.
-(associative tells; does not count for purposes of this particular argument but want it noted) lots of focus on Froth early in the game with almost none on anyone else.
-I haven't seen a definitive opinion on anyone recently.
-You didn't answer my question in 99.
-Do you really think Town never put Town at L-1???

I presume my activity based read is null now (doesn't make me town, but I presume my current level of activity is satisfactory?).

Yes.

Points one and three are crap. I get this all the time "Oh you are sitting on the fence", "You are being wishy washy with your reads!", etc. I am sorry I have a grasp of stochastic systems and factor that into my reads. Get over it.

Point one isn't about you sitting on the fence. It's about you not sharing any info. It's also about you not really seeming to be trying to get it.
Point three is the same, but focused more on the former point than the latter.
I don't understand what random distribution has to do with a lack of proper scumhunting.

Do you still want me to answer those questions on 99 or was it more of a "oh you saw them and didn't answer therefore thats scummy" type of thing?

Yes. I still want you to answer whatever questions of mine you haven't.

And finally of course my wagon could have been scum-free. But under the circumstances I was/am pretty sure that it wasn't.

That point wasn't about the wagon. It was about reinoe specifically. It was about one particular vote. It was about the thousand million times L-1 votes on Town have come from Town.

not froth. sheeping bjc about froth?

Why not?

Because you had a town read on Froth and other than him going inactive nothing has changed. I agreed (and still do agree) with your earlier town read: he looked to be genuinely scum-hunting.

I can only assume ffery found this answer satisfactory enough to answer for her.
A page 1 townread on a player I've never played with is not sufficient to counter some of his more recent posts.

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely IC. I am expected to help you learn to play the game, particularly in the context of this forum. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your theory questions truthfully.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

I also want to get this out now so as not to interrupt gameplay later:

HELPFUL TAG TIME

Code: Select all

[post]0[/post]

will look like
0
and link you to that post.

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[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=45060&p=5794821#p5794821]Newbie 1493[/url]

will look like
Newbie 1493
And link you to that url (this one is this game).

Code: Select all

[spoiler]OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING[/spoiler]

will look like

OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING

(highlight to read).

The code for a big spoiler is this:

Code: Select all

[spoiler=A SPOILER??]IT IS[/spoiler]

which looks like

Spoiler: A SPOILER??

IT IS

Some mods are fine with spoilering of REALLY BIG WALLS O' TEXT. Some are not. If in doubt, try and check with the Mod before you post.

/IC wall

[goodmorning]

I am stupid and mod should delete that.

Nah.. You're now on a rule strike for using

tags again though. - Cheery

[goodmorning]

Begs the question though: what about their more recent posts makes you think scum?

Well, I particularly didn't like the sudden random unexplained tunnel on bjc, and the vote on reinoe was... just bad. Really opportunistic, too, IIRC - a springboard off ffery.

@3dice: you can snip people's posts if you're only replying to certain parts of them.

[goodmorning]

@GM - Can do. Do you have any reads other strong reads besides bjc and Lootifer?

Me? Not sure if I'd call Lootifer that strong a read, nor bjc. reinoe is a pretty strong townread though.

[goodmorning]

You know, I'm not quite sure yet. From what I've seen of his playstyle he ought to be fairly readable for me once the game really gets going though.

What is your read of 3dice now?

Town, though I'm both more and less sure of that than I thought I might be.

I'd like to hear from JKM. ffery on Froth is... interesting.

[goodmorning]

imkingdavid - Supertown. Other than the Reinoe read, pretty much echoes everything I was feeling at that stage of catchup. IF he's scum, he read the game before looking at his role PM. Don't see how scum could so accurately reach the conclusions I made coming into the game.

Maybe because you felt he'd be the most likely to get on your side if you had similar reads, so you sheeped him?

goodmorning - unsure here, but scummish I guess? Not liking the lack of scrutiny towards bjc, but this seems to be consistent towards most players... it's just more interaction with bjc exists. Seems fairly mellow in general, so while that's not great for town, bigger fish to fry for the moment.

1. What makes you think I haven't been scrutinising bjc? Is it because I came to a different conclusion than you? His interactions with me are what make him look Town to me.
2. So now my playstyle is anti-Town? OK, better become kuribo then. ffs.

The quote from Loot is

clearly

implying that his PM says he's town (irrelevant whether you believe this or not).
But then subtle push for claim from reinoe? Awful.

I don't see that as reinoe pushing for a claim. I see that as reinoe saying that his VCA meant nothing to the rest of us because we could not assume Loot is/was Town.

Also feel free to call this me defending Loot, because it's clearly not (much like my other post was apparently doing that). I'm pointing out how dodgy YOUR case is... it just so happens the case is against Loot.

CHAINSAW, CHAINSAW

What about his answer was unsatisfactory?

He made an incredibly stupid assumption about the three people who were on his wagon and one person who wasn't. Then he contradicted himself, which everyone seems to be ignoring.

You say paraphrasing, I say misrepping...
I'm going to refrain from posting until someone else weighs in. You're not making sense because you're drunk or scum. I'll let you sober up so I can decide.

1. You sound like a dick in this post.
2. Winning an argument doesn't make you Town.

I think I like this reinoe guy.

No fucking shit.

[goodmorning]

ffery and dwsns, what is your read on the froth/JKM slot?

Why did you ask them in particular?

Also, do you think there's some reason you and 3dice haven't interacted?

[goodmorning]

goodmorning - unsure here, but scummish I guess? Not liking the lack of scrutiny towards bjc, but this seems to be consistent towards most players... it's just more interaction with bjc exists. Seems fairly mellow in general, so while that's not great for town, bigger fish to fry for the moment.

1. What makes you think I haven't been scrutinising bjc? Is it because I came to a different conclusion than you? His interactions with me are what make him look Town to me.
2. So now my playstyle is anti-Town? OK, better become kuribo then. ffs.

1. Ok, well no evidence of not just going along with bjc as town. It puts me on edge because I reealllllyyy don't like bjc for town. Mind elaborating your townread?
2. My you are awfully defensive. What I posted was elaboration of the notes I took. My conclusion on you, if you want me to word it another way, is "nothing overly town, but I have other suspects to worry about".

1. Mind elabourating on your scumread? Because most of what you said in your replace-in post looks like playstyle differences to me.
2. You said, specifically, "seems fairly mellow... that's not great for town..." Mellow is how I tend to play, unless I'm irritated.

I don't see that as reinoe pushing for a claim. I see that as reinoe saying that his VCA meant nothing to the rest of us because we could not assume Loot is/was Town.

Fair enough. I think mentioning a claim is concerning, because whether or not Loot is/was forced to claim, he would say he's town. A claim would only provide a specific role. Admittedly putting sinister motives behind it is a bit confirmation biasy, but it was definitely worth mentioning.

Eh. Why get worked up about reinoe's possible misuse of the word "claim" and not about 3dice with "bussing"?

CHAINSAW, CHAINSAW

Are you saying you don't think I'd be pointing out how terrible the case is if it were against someone else? Do my reasons for suspecting reinoe seem fabricated for the sake of discrediting him, or do you think maybe it's possible I'd come into the game not liking what I'm seeing from a player?

I am absolutely saying that.
Do your reasons seem fabricated? That's harder to tell. Gut, OMGUS, and an L-1 vote on a slot that many people don't find Town... well.

He made an incredibly stupid assumption about the three people who were on his wagon and one person who wasn't. Then he contradicted himself, which everyone seems to be ignoring.

Thanks for, as the most experienced player here, answering my question to somebody else. I wasn't interested to see what you found unsatisfactory about it, I was interested to see what reinoe found unsatisfactory about it.

I do this a lot. In this case I did it because I felt like you were going to muck about with an argument, then say you'd won and therefore reinoe must be Scum.

1. You sound like a dick in this post.
2. Winning an argument doesn't make you Town.

1. Don't mean to sound like a dick. I'm pretty good at just posting opinions without injecting emotion, which in turn makes me sound (or be?) heartless. Sorry if I come across that way, I never mean to.
2. I never said I won an argument, or that it makes me town. I said reinoe's arguments were illogical, so I'd wait to see if alcohol or being scum were the culprit. Do YOU think either of us "won" the argument? And in fact, I think reinoe was the one talking about who was winning or losing an argument...

1. Fine.
2. See the bit above this.

I have plenty of things to continue with in rebuttal to some of the stuff drunkreinoe said, but there'll be lots of quoting so it'll get ugly... let me know if people are interested in hearing it or not...

You do what you feel you need to do, but expect me to be snarky and/or disapproving about it.

[goodmorning]

The AtE, it burnses ussssss

[goodmorning]

Appeal to Emotion.

[goodmorning]

Her response to me saying I like reinoe was odd though.

Odd is a very vague word.

Was rather atypically sweary though.

@Everyone: JKM looks like the most doable wagon for today. Does anyone (except JKM) object? If so, why?

[goodmorning]

ilu ffery

Some things to consider for tomorrow:
-I'm looking at ffery again
-And still at Loot
-And maybe at dws

[goodmorning]

oh good. If I'm alive tomorrow, gm and I are going to have epic battle.

Sounds fun.

[goodmorning]

Interesting, but not something I'm going to talk about today.

[goodmorning]

scumreads are gm and imkingdavid with a maybe for bjc. His comment about sheeping reinoe pinged. These aren't strong reads. Depending on the length of the night phase, and when night starts, I may be traveling when day 2 starts, but should be able to post by Wednesday.

oh u

something something trajectory, idk

[goodmorning]

I'm shocked. Tempted to vote Loot or goodmorning.

Shocked? That

ffery

died?

Bullshit.

In other news, yay, paranoia is gone.

When I get more time, I'm gonna go back and look at ffery's interactions.

Given that ffery has flipped Town, what are her interactions going to tell you?

Thoughts:
I don't think Scum-reinoe would troll JKM so hard knowing he would flip Town, though I suppose it's possible.

[goodmorning]

BJC, could you do a read...on yourself? While I was waiting for the day to start I was wondering what are some unorthodox questions to ask and I'm like haha, lol. So yeah, could you review your posts and point out what you think is townie? What you think is scummy? Anything regarding style or any particular trends?

goodmorning, same request.

Why? And what do you think you'll get out of it?

I am realllly twmtped to push goodmorning but I need to read first.

Good luck with that.

[goodmorning]

How would you know whether we were being honest though? It's not something I'd really mind doing if it would help, but I'm just not really sure of the motivation.

I can do a read on bjc, I guess. I'll take it post-by-post and put it under a spoiler tag. It'll happen tonight or tomorrow, probably.

[goodmorning]

reason I haven't posted recently: lazy on the case thing

case thing will not happen soon.

[goodmorning]

reason I haven't posted recently: lazy on the case thing

case thing will not happen soon.

Ahh don't be that way Excercise those brain muscles! Or is it finger muscles?

It's both, but I have family stuff for this weekend, so on that note:

V/LA til Saturday or early Sunday.

[goodmorning]

GM - You can answer whenever you get back. Do you think your meta matches that of 1479?

Not really. In 1479 I replaced into a slot that was taking some serious heat. Playing in that situation is a lot different from starting from scratch.

Having said all that I would like to hear GM's thoughts on dwsn, deferring to experience and all that.

As far as dwsn... I was reading her as stronger Town on D1 than I am now.

[goodmorning]

Good morning I understand you felt being lazy etc, but Could I get the your bjc read?

I've been hacking up a lung for the last couple days. I'm taking off work today, so if the backlit screen doesn't give me a headache I should be able to do that ISO.

I want to prevent another JKMatthews situation. How does one go about defending themselves from bullshit without coming off as defensive?

There's not really any one way to do it, and a lot of the time it'll happen no matter what, but it helps if you can keep calm and not worry too much.

Why do you ask?

[goodmorning]

The vote was just to get you to start talking anyway. I'm not actually scumreading you.

this is kinda weak tbh

[goodmorning]

I've been known to delay cases as both alignments.

Most notably, I delayed for over a month in Shadows and Lights. I was VT there (koalafied hydra w/Noctan).

Mainly, I just don't like making cases. But as I said, I'm working on it.

[goodmorning]

I'm not talking about the vote. I'm talking about the timing and reasoning for backing off it.

[goodmorning]

dws
GM
bjc

2 scum in here.

That would be great if
1. Any of these were at all explained ever
2. You didn't just say that you didn't actually think dwsn was Scum and you were just pressure voting her.

@Reinoe - Is your vote on GM solely on pressure or is there some logic behind?

There's some things I don't like in the ISO but I'm hoping that how she does her bjc read could clear some things up. The vote is because I'm willing to base my decision without her bjc read and as shown she can get very lurky as scum. Unfortunately everyone seem to have become a lot lurkier so it's not as strong of a clue.[/quote]
Once again, I'll point out
1. I am not lurking
2. I delay cases as both alignments, so it isn't indicative.

[goodmorning]

I think he means that you do short posts with less explanation, but you've made your motives pretty clear imo, especially for this recent vote.

Actually, what changed your mind from "should I vote" to "vote"?

[goodmorning]

goodmorning - unsure here, but scummish I guess? Not liking the lack of scrutiny towards bjc, but this seems to be consistent towards most players... it's just more interaction with bjc exists. Seems fairly mellow in general, so while that's not great for town, bigger fish to fry for the moment.

1. What makes you think I haven't been scrutinising bjc? Is it because I came to a different conclusion than you?

His interactions with me are what make him look Town to me.

2. So now my playstyle is anti-Town? OK, better become kuribo then. ffs.

I forget whether I said this already, but bjc is Town.

I know reading is difficult, but obviously I've given my read on bjc a couple times and it really hasn't changed for the worse.

Unless you meant my case on bjc, in which case I can link you 5-10 recent Town games in which I delayed cases - just in case the whole "delaying for a month in Shadows and Lights" wasn't sufficient enough to get that point through to everyone.
So I'm not sure where you're going with this.

P-EDIT: I also wanted to see him try and pressure me. It's the one thing that's keeping me from being super-confident of my read on him as it stands.

[goodmorning]

No need to get so defensive. How am I supposed to know whether your read changed or not?

...because I obviously would have mentioned if it did change? Playing as Town isn't about secrets. It's about being open with your thoughts when they happen.
(Unless you're a PR but we're not going there.)

You not directly answering Reinoe is just more reason to believe your read changed.

Except that reinoe clearly meant that he wanted a case of sorts rather than just "Town/Null/Scum," and delaying cases, particularly unorthodox ones like this, is something I like to do.
Now that I think about it, this is a really good question for reinoe to have asked: me deconstructing someone else's posts will give good insight into both what I'm thinking and (to a lesser extent) what he's thinking.
That's brilliant.

(But don't expect anyone to humour you if you ask it outside your newbie games, because they will probably tell you to fuck off.)

Speaking of questions not being answered, here's some for you:
Old question:

When I get more time, I'm gonna go back and look at ffery's interactions.

Given that ffery has flipped Town, what are her interactions going to tell you?

Plus a new one: did this happen? If so, what did you learn from it (if anything)?

GM - You can answer whenever you get back. Do you think your meta matches that of 1479?

Not really. In 1479 I replaced into a slot that was taking some serious heat. Playing in that situation is a lot different from starting from scratch.

New question: Where were you hoping to go with this question? Did it tell you anything?

I'm not talking about the vote. I'm talking about the timing and reasoning for backing off it.

Well, I felt like the vote was to set more of a standard of the activity level. When I'm trying to find the 2 scum, it can either come to me by finding a scum, or by town reading everyone except a few people. I can't get a town read if someone isn't really engaging.

I'm gonna actually read up some more and place a vote some time soon.

New question: when I said my concern was not with the vote, but the unvote, why did you continue talking about the vote?

Are you scum bjc?

New question: Where were you hoping to go with this question? Did you think it would tell you anything?
(I thought someone had already asked that question this game but couldn't find it.)

Old concern newly phrased as a question:

dws
GM
bjc

2 scum in here.

That would be great if
1. Any of these were at all explained ever
2. You didn't just say that you didn't actually think dwsn was Scum and you were just pressure voting her.

(The aforementioned post from point 2, for reference)

The vote was just to get you to start talking anyway. I'm not actually scumreading you.

1. Why didn't you explain your reads?
2. Why did you suddenly scumread dwsn 15 posts after you said you didn't?

Also, not really going to go into it, but do you think being defensive is necessarily a scumtell? Because you seem to have read 1479, and both jon and I (especially me) were getting pretty defensive in the last few days...

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: post590

No need to get so defensive. How am I supposed to know whether your read changed or not?

...because I obviously would have mentioned if it did change? Playing as Town isn't about secrets. It's about being open with your thoughts when they happen.
(Unless you're a PR but we're not going there.)

How am I to assume you're town? Even if you are town, how am I supposed to assume you'd just come outright and say "Hey everybody, my bjc read change"

You not directly answering Reinoe is just more reason to believe your read changed.

Except that reinoe clearly meant that he wanted a case of sorts rather than just "Town/Null/Scum," and delaying cases, particularly unorthodox ones like this, is something I like to do.
Now that I think about it, this is a really good question for reinoe to have asked: me deconstructing someone else's posts will give good insight into both what I'm thinking and (to a lesser extent) what he's thinking.
That's brilliant.

(But don't expect anyone to humour you if you ask it outside your newbie games, because they will probably tell you to fuck off.)

Speaking of questions not being answered, here's some for you:
Old question:

Meh. I missed that. All I saw was that he wanted a "read" until I read 499 over again. Don't even act like it was clear because he said "read" several times, which I just think of as town or scum, not some elaborate case.

When I get more time, I'm gonna go back and look at ffery's interactions.

Given that ffery has flipped Town, what are her interactions going to tell you?

Plus a new one: did this happen? If so, what did you learn from it (if anything)?

It did happen. Read 516.

GM - You can answer whenever you get back. Do you think your meta matches that of 1479?

Not really. In 1479 I replaced into a slot that was taking some serious heat. Playing in that situation is a lot different from starting from scratch.

New question: Where were you hoping to go with this question? Did it tell you anything?

I looked at a little bit of 1479. Your play was a lot different from here, so I thought it fair to ask you whether you felt it similar.

I'm not talking about the vote. I'm talking about the timing and reasoning for backing off it.

Well, I felt like the vote was to set more of a standard of the activity level. When I'm trying to find the 2 scum, it can either come to me by finding a scum, or by town reading everyone except a few people. I can't get a town read if someone isn't really engaging.

I'm gonna actually read up some more and place a vote some time soon.

New question: when I said my concern was not with the vote, but the unvote, why did you continue talking about the vote?

I was talking about the vote, but my post was explaining the reason for taking it back when I did. I felt like Dws understood the standard of activity I expect from her if she is town, so I unvoted.

Are you scum bjc?

New question: Where were you hoping to go with this question? Did you think it would tell you anything?
(I thought someone had already asked that question this game but couldn't find it.)

Old concern newly phrased as a question:

I already answered this to ffery, but I can answer it again. When you ask someone a question like that, scum might jump the gun and overreact. Town would just answer no, or ask why you asked it then answer no like ffery did. Bjc didn't say anything, which is odd.

dws
GM
bjc

2 scum in here.

That would be great if
1. Any of these were at all explained ever
2. You didn't just say that you didn't actually think dwsn was Scum and you were just pressure voting her.

(The aforementioned post from point 2, for reference)

The vote was just to get you to start talking anyway. I'm not actually scumreading you.

1. Why didn't you explain your reads?
2. Why did you suddenly scumread dwsn 15 posts after you said you didn't?

1. Reinoe is obv town, gut is leaning toward Loot being town, Some of David's ISO is towntelling to me. That leaves three left due to PoE.

2. I didn't even say I'm scumreading dws. I just stuck her in the pile of others because I can't figure her out yet.

Also, not really going to go into it, but do you think being defensive is necessarily a scumtell? Because you seem to have read 1479, and both jon and I (especially me) were getting pretty defensive in the last few days...

Getting defensive over a case on you is one thing. Getting defensive when no pressure is on you at all is another thing (another, much scummier thing). If you don't want to go into it, then why did you ask me this question?

bjc - Care to elaborate on 561, 573, or 576?

@David - Is your biggest scum read still on bjc? If so, why aren't you voting him?

At this point, yes, but I'll have to go back over things before I make a decision. To be honest I haven't been giving enough attention to any of my games lately, so tonight after work i'll actually force myself to sit down and work on a post.

As for why I'm not voting, I don't like to tunnel on one or two people, especially spanning a night phase. While he is still my strong scum read, I need to look again at everyone else before I make a decision. I've been procrastinating, which I know is bad but I do plan to stop it as of today.

Understood. I'd still like to read over a bit too, but school is meh.

To the bolded:
1. Because that's how I play? I share my thoughts when I'm Town? If you thought about it for a second you'd realize that I do it as Scum too because that would be a pretty obvious tell otherwise. So ultimately, I always share my thoughts by the time the second half of D1 rolls around, and I keep it up after that.
2. Well, I found it clear. If you didn't, that's fine. I play a lot of newbie games, so terminology weirdness, as I think I've mentioned, is pretty old hat.
3. Ok. So the bottom line was that you saw ffery had clashed with two people and ended with scumreads on both. Maybe I can get that into my brain this time.
4. That's fair. But did it tell you anything?
5. Ok. I still don't really feel like that fully addresses my concerns, but then I'm not sure I've fully articulated them.
6. So it DID happen in this game. Huh. Yeah, that's fair enough. Do you think his not answering is alignment-indicative?
7.1. I'm not really the biggest fan of PoE scumreads. As a base to work from? Sure. As "well, everyone else is Town so..." I'm a little more iffy. Makes it easy for Scum, because pointing out real towntells is easier than pointing out fake scumtells.
7.2. Well, you put her in a pile with a 67% chance of being Scum...
8. I wasn't going to go into it because:
A. I don't think I was being defensive, and we could argue the definition for days and never get anything done
B. To go much deeper than "do you think it's always a scumtell?" gets sort of into theory stuff, and that's mostly distracting and unhelpful as well.

[goodmorning]

I should imagine I'll be voting in my next post.

[goodmorning]

1. Because that's how I play? I share my thoughts when I'm Town? If you thought about it for a second you'd realize that I do it as Scum too because that would be a pretty obvious tell otherwise. So ultimately, I always share my thoughts by the time the second half of D1 rolls around, and I keep it up after that.
2. Well, I found it clear. If you didn't, that's fine. I play a lot of newbie games, so terminology weirdness, as I think I've mentioned, is pretty old hat.
3. Ok. So the bottom line was that you saw ffery had clashed with two people and ended with scumreads on both. Maybe I can get that into my brain this time.
4. That's fair. But did it tell you anything?
5. Ok. I still don't really feel like that fully addresses my concerns, but then I'm not sure I've fully articulated them.
6. So it DID happen in this game. Huh. Yeah, that's fair enough. Do you think his not answering is alignment-indicative?
7.1. I'm not really the biggest fan of PoE scumreads. As a base to work from? Sure. As "well, everyone else is Town so..." I'm a little more iffy. Makes it easy for Scum, because pointing out real towntells is easier than pointing out fake scumtells.
7.2. Well, you put her in a pile with a 67% chance of being Scum...
8. I wasn't going to go into it because:
A. I don't think I was being defensive, and we could argue the definition for days and never get anything done
B. To go much deeper than "do you think it's always a scumtell?" gets sort of into theory stuff, and that's mostly distracting and unhelpful as well.

1. I don't know about this game. I think I have the scum team just about nailed down, and you're at the top of my list. I'd just prefer to read up on your ISO and provide some insight as to why I think this way. I haven't played any other games with you, do you expect me to know what you do and don't do?
2. I would also like an elaboration as to why you think he is town when you find the time.
3. She clashed with you and David, then added in bjc to the mix at the end. My read on David is leaning town, so I don't see how I'm scumreading both the players she clashed with.
4. If it is meta unlike this game, the how would it tell me anything?
5. Yeah, not really sure on what else you want here.
6. Probably not as alignment indicative as if he would've responded a different way. It's just something about the way he ignored the question like it wasn't there that bugged me.
7.1. I mean, I'm going to explain my read on someone better when I vote. Those were just sort of where I stood at the time.
7.2. I didn't call her scum though. You're assuming that she has a more likely chance than you or bjc at being the 2/3 scum instead of looking how she could be the 1/3.
8.
A. Fair enough.
B. Like I said, no need in asking a question like that unless you want to get into a discussion.

1. Because there's no practical reason for an IC not to play at least a decent game?
2. Who, reinoe or bjc?
3. ffery ended with scumreads on both. She didn't really have any issues with bjc and I don't know if I'd call that a clash either.
4. All meta tells a story. That meta can tell you how I react to arguments I feel are less than genuine.
6. It seems rather in-character imo. As either alignment.
7.1. I hope to see it.
7.2. Something in this statement is wrong and it has to do with me knowing I'm Town, but I'm not quite sure how to say it.
8.B. I did need your answer to the "is it always a scumtell" question though.

So GM, what have you learned from your questions?

Everything, and nothing. Mainly that I don't think I trust you.

GM - What is your current status on loot?

RFA.

@bjc: If you get the time can you look through the 7.2 string and tell me whether I'm being an idiot?

[goodmorning]

Firstly what does RFA mean?

Really Fucking Annoying.
Long story short, your popping in and out means that I have little to no read on you, which is irritating though I perhaps initially phrased it a bit harshly.

@3dice:
1. Je ne parle pas français.
2. Fine, when I've time.
3. OK.
4. OK.
6. I mean that it seems like the sort of thing he would do. Hell, I'd do it if I was feeling peevish enough.
7.2. Yes, it would. But you're not.
8.B. Yes. You said that already. I was just clarifying that I asked because I actually did want an answer, just not a discussion on that particular topic.

Explained RFA^

I asked bjc because he's not a newb and I'm townreading him. Would rather ask ffery but she's dead, and if she'd lived to today that would be suspicious as anything, so bjc.

[goodmorning]

How did your read go from scum yesterday to hard to read today?

So because I'm a newb on this site, I can't be put to answering your question?

I don't think I've ever been further down the scale than a lean Scum on him.

No, you can't answer the question because it's about you.

DISCLAIMER...I'M NOT LOOKING THROUGH GOODMORNING'S ISO LOOKING FOR SCUMMY CRAP. I'M JUST REALIZING THAT THERE AREN'T REALLY THAT MANY PRO-TOWN POSTS SHE'S MAKING. USEFUL POSTS TO NEWBS? CERTAINLY. THOUGHTS ON STRATEGY? SURE. ACTUALY PRO-TOWN POSTS THAT HELP US FIND SCUM? NOPE, I'M NOT ACTUALLY SEEING THOSE.

Thennnn your eyesight must not be that good?

I'm not going to respond to most of your points since many of them are ones I feel I've already discussed.

Afterwards we see some back and forth with fferyllt, Loot's absolutely awful "scum on my wagon" and a well earned tunneling.

Why are all these things, which you seem to consider relatively good, an afterthought?

Nah man switch to Froth.

K.

Vote: Froth

wait, what? Not even a case presented? Again I was fine with it at the time because I was like "fuck froth, that guys an a-hole". I can understand why BJC would vote Froth's slot. GM had no build up or reason at all.

One does not need to post a case in the post in which they vote as long as they have made their reasoning at least somewhat clear earlier.
But 230,

literally my previous post

, may not be quite obvious enough in spelling it out, I guess? And I suppose 228 doesn't help either? Post 121?

not froth. sheeping bjc about froth?

Why not?

This response is 100% terrabad. I was too busy being in my "fuck froth, that guys an asshole" mode to realize that fferyllt's question is a good one.

ffery's question was not a good one, or at least not a ffery-caliber question. Actually this one in particular was one of the ones that made me want to reread her if she survived.

she didn't have a reason at the time of her vote.

yesss i didddddd
just because i didn't state it in the exact post means nothinggggggggggggg

[goodmorning]

Maybe you should convince reinoe before I have to fight a wall war on two fronts.

The above is 100% a joke and is not meant to bear on anyone's actions etc

[goodmorning]

What is?

[goodmorning]

It responds that the answer was "it didn't." It didn't go from scum to eh. It went through various shades of null, getting as far down as lean scum, and is now firmly in the null camp still.

The answer to the question you're asking if it had would be that JKM flipped Town and that is why associative cases are bad.

[goodmorning]

Afterwards we see some back and forth with fferyllt, Loot's absolutely awful "scum on my wagon" and a well earned tunneling.

Why are all these things, which you seem to consider relatively good, an afterthought?

1.Why do you think I glossed over the back and forth with fferyllt?

2. Why do you think I glossed over Loot's "scum on my wagon" and the ensuing fallout?

I don't know, which is why I asked.

Vote: ikd

For 537. Also wouldn't say no to voting 3dice at this point.

It responds that the answer was "it didn't." It didn't go from scum to eh. It went through various shades of null, getting as far down as lean scum, and is now firmly in the null camp still.

The answer to the question you're asking if it had would be that JKM flipped Town and that is why associative cases are bad.

So you're saying because JKM flipped town, your read on loot swung from leans scum to null?

I believe that is what that sentence says, is it not?

[goodmorning]

Literally none, except that all the PRs get dead.

[goodmorning]

Literally none, except that all the PRs get dead.

C'mon, there has to be something.

Nah.

While this is true, when you are a a point in the game where there aren't many votes out there, and a decent player (bjc) is voting you, a scum GM could've just sheeped him, drove my lynch with bjc, then blamed it on him tomorrow. Coming from a similar position like this, I highly doubt a GM scum, bjc town situation. (I can link you to the similar situation if needed)

I did say I'd consider voting you. I just prefer ikd at the moment.

V/LA the weekend

[goodmorning]

What are your thoughts on the fact that both bjc and goodmorning have both miraculously failed to do reads on each other?

I suppose being on vacation is somewhat miraculous.

Also, if the "not doing anything" is what you're worried about, what of ikd?

[goodmorning]

What are your thoughts on the fact that both bjc and goodmorning have both miraculously failed to do reads on each other?

I suppose being on vacation is somewhat miraculous.

Also, if the "not doing anything" is what you're worried about, what of ikd?

I'm very disappointed in IKD. It feels like some sort of apathy has gripped the town.

Mhm. But I'm saying that both bjc and I are posting content. ikd pops up every day or two to say he's going to post content and then really doesn't.

I've read through the GM cases again and I'm not crazy happy with her response.

I'm not going to respond to most of your points since many of them are ones I feel I've already discussed.

Once a case has been laid out against you,

the burden of proof rests on you to defend yourself and to convince everyone else that the case is wrong.

Ignoring things just because they might have been covered at some point in the past puts the burden on everyone else to go find what you're talking about. If you don't want to type everything out again, at least link to stuff.

Actually, the bolded is utterly incorrect. The burden of proof is always on the accuser.
As for not linking stuff: if the accuser wants to make an outdated case, I'm not interested in bogging myself down disproving the bits of it that have already been disproven.

I see this as an attempt at buddying to GM - a wise choice considering GM is (initially, I don't know if ffery has been here longer) the most experienced player here.

I've played here longer, but ffery might well have more games than I do.

@reinoe: What I'm going to do for your analysis thing is this: I'm going to go through bjc's posts and pull the ones where he's scumhunting, because I feel like that's the main thing people are having issues with as regards his posting.
I need sleep right now. It can wait til morning.

[goodmorning]

Also, I'm out until reinoe and GM comment on the recent happenings.

What, on 3dice? I've said I don't hate that wagon.

3)goodmorning, after doing my read there are some things I'd like clarification on, but since that may not happen today...
3.A)

Vote: Lootifer

So now I have Froth,

Frost,

dws, and reinoe as light townreads. This game is easy.

This right here. What had frost done to justify a read of any type? It looks like gm just chose a bunch of random players to call "town". But wait, did she just label the most inexperienced players town so that she could pick off the players who might pick up on any shenanigans?
.

I know you mentioned that some things were clarified, but could you go over these again because I missed them. I'd like clarification on this. How did you determine that these were light townreads?

OK. If what you're asking is what I based my reads on, the answer is mostly small things. Tone is one. Certain behaviours towards the IC (confrontation with good reason, for one). Certain behaviours towards the game in general (ex. do they really look like they want to solve it?).

3.B) What do you think about the closeness you and bjc seem to have this game? It's drawing some scumdar detectors.

I don't really know. I just like his playstyle I think.

3.C) Why do you think fferryllt labelled you and IAMKINGDAVID scum?

ffery and I go back some way. We tend to be quite paranoid of each other, particularly earlier in games.
As to her read on ikd? I don't know. She probably said something about it though.

@3dice: I am trying to do things in a way that is conducive to my own thought processes. I'd much rather go through and say "he's scumhunting here" than talk about the subtle nuances of 140+ posts.

[goodmorning]

@dwsn: I'm not infallible, so if you're going to sheep me you'll need a better reason than "she doesn't hate it."

3D has asked for reads 2 times, not including times he's commented on other people's reads.

What would asking others for reads cost him if he were Scum? (Answer: Nothing.)

Actually, the bolded is utterly incorrect. The burden of proof is always on the accuser.

Let me clarify, since I can understand where you're coming from. Once you have been accused of something (specifically, if evidence has been brought against you) it is up to you to disprove the evidence. That is what I was saying. Obviously it's not your job to defend yourself against baseless claims.

Look, let's say that in a trial it's been conclusively demonstrated that the murder weapon was a kitchen knife. If the prosecution picks up a gun and tries to say it's the murder weapon? Well, we already know it isn't, and we're not going to dignify that with a response.

IKD is still being exceptionally controlled.

Is controlling oneself not a part of the game?

bjc is a fucking easy lynch.

No, he isn't.

I don't know where this 3DICE wagon came from but it's bullshit.

No, it isn't.

At this point, I think that if only one of you is scum, its more likely bjc.

No, he isn't.

But I think that if you're scum, you're much more dangerous to have around than bjc would be.

No, he probably isn't. He's definitely Scum though, for reasons I can't talk about.

bjc's playstyle opens him up to being policy lynched for god's sake.

No, it definitely doesn't.

[goodmorning]

[IC STUFF]@dwsn: Hypothetically speaking, "I can't talk about it" almost always means "it's about an ongoing game so I can't talk about it". We just don't say the latter because mentioning that there is an ongoing game would be talking about it.[/IC STUFF]

[goodmorning]

ikd, yes.

[goodmorning]

I don't activity read a lot of people.

[goodmorning]

My goal right now is to try and figure out what result he got from his N1 investigation. Could have been a guilty, but more likely an inno since he didn't out it.

I ISO'd him and I honestly can't tell. Mayyyybe dwsn-inno? Could be bjc-inno but much less likely based on later D2 posts.

Onwards to associatives with ikd!

[goodmorning]

So he probably investigated either myself or fferrylt D1.

Actually an investigate on ffery does seem pretty likely now that you mention it...

[goodmorning]

Yeah, I know me and IKD look like the scum team. That's great and all, but give me time to find the REAL last scum, then you guys can lynch me and lynch that person tomorrow. Agreed?

How are you doing on this one? Any ideas?

[goodmorning]

Do you really find it odd? If you're Town, then reinoe could very easily not be dead because he's loud and distracting, there were other pretty universal townreads or dangerous folks around, and he could very possibly have been counted on to push you as today's (mis)lynch just like he pushed JKM.

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning, why do you think Lootifer was killed last night? Even he admitted that he wasn't great at scumhunting.

Could be a number of things, but the most likely include:
1. He didn't really look like he was going to be lynched anymore.
2. As a less frequent poster, he would be more likely to be replaced - and some replacements are extremely competent (see Wisdom).
3. He PR slipped somewhere, or at least Scum thought he did. (possibly related to his posting less)
4. He was right, and Scum didn't want to let him keep talking.
5. He was wrong, but they felt he wasn't strong enough to lead lynches.
6. Something else.
7. Any of the above combined.
8. None of the above.
9. WIFOM.

(rhetorical question)Why do people flail and make misleading statements when they're under pressure if they're town? (/rhetorical question)

[IC answer]Generally speaking, because pressure freaks everyone out, not just Scum.[/IC answer]

Here is what I have so far on the associative front:

Onwards to associatives with ikd!

Ok, step 1 is to determine how he usually acts as Scum. Does he bus his partners? Ignore them? Treat them a certain way? Speak to them in a different tone? Does he behave differently with a strong partner vs a weak one?

In N1482, he ignored his weaker partner, then bussed hard, all the way to lynch.
And that's his only recent scumgame. So we'll have to do this the hard way.
Things I'll be looking for:
Similar patterns of behaviour as his recent scumgame (with particular attn to his interactions with newbs)
Him avoiding taking stances on anyone.
Him taking unreasonable stances on anyone.
Anyone avoiding taking a stance on him.
Anyone taking an unreasonable stance on him.
His voting record (did he hop off a wagon and onto a different one? Why? Was the timing good? The reason?)

[goodmorning]

That's the one I said?

[goodmorning]

Well, it's possible. But people can just have a hard time in certain games, or difficulty sussing certain players, or be having a bad day/week/month/year, or be changing their playstyle...

[goodmorning]

Can I go ahead and join the 3Dice partywagon?
I really don't see how it would make sense for IKD to be all up in my grill like that if I was his scum partner, ya know?

There is a thing called bussing...

[goodmorning]

ummmm what just happened

3dice you gain nothing from not telling if you really are dead

[goodmorning]

you really are dead, and you should tell

[goodmorning]

also bullshit on "oops i hammered"

because autopreview that's why

[goodmorning]

ewwwwww whyyyyyy

[goodmorning]

Alright. dwsn, convince me reinoe is Scum, because otherwise I'm voting for you.

[goodmorning]

You build one on her? No. Her build one on you? Yes.

Also, confirming to you that I'm not Scum, insofar as not hammering a wagon on not-me can confirm that. And if you're Scum then I've confirmed it to dwsn as well.

[goodmorning]

I've seen it not happen enough times to say that's not always the case.

[goodmorning]

A. Genuine question. what does " insofar as not hammering a wagon on not-me can confirm that." mean?
B. I tried building a case on him and it was torn to pieces. I've been convinced, he's town.
But you on the other hand...
I just don't know.

A. It means that you know I'm Town, basically. If you're Scum, you already knew that. If you're Town, I didn't hammer you, which would have ended the game for a Scum win.
B. I'd like you to try again if you feel up to it.

[goodmorning]

Hmmmm. ikd's interactions with reinoe were normal but perfunctory - partners not wanting to draw too many connections, or ikd just not finding reinoe worth the time? ikd's interactions with dwsn were antagonistic - but a bus or an attempted easy mislynch?

reinoe's interactions with ikd were almost nonexistent...

Sorry, I'm in a complete fucking haze. Twilight is a useful phase still.

If I'm killed tonight AND IKD turns up town. Goodmorning or Lootifer is scum. If I'm killed tonight and IKD Turns up scum then dws is scum.

I want to know why you thought this.

dwsn's interactions with ikd were a little too reactive - but then her interactions with everyone were like that.

[goodmorning]

Next thoughts: why was bjc killed over me?

And do the wagons make sense from either standpoint? (spoiler alert: they do)

[goodmorning]

And nobody's planning on convincingly claiming Doc at this point, right?

[goodmorning]

I don't know if she is or not. The times on the profiles aren't always right, I've found.

[goodmorning]

I think you are overestimating my ability to weigh things quickly in LyLo. If you're Scum you absolutely should have killed me over bjc, you'd be done by now.

I'm also not only waiting for her to build a case. Some thoughts would do. Anything to solidify my thoughts either way.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, when he specifically said you should do it if you were Town. And the bjc kill doesn't make much sense for dwsn either. Kill on you would have been the most sensible because then bjc and I could very easily have paranoia'd.

Yes, you could very easily have bussed. I know you read that mastin article about interactive tells. I know you probably have some slight familiarity with my play. I know that if you thought I was going to deathtunnel ikd that I would win because of his already standing on shaky ground. It is equally possible that either of you is Scum based on what I know of both your characters matching up with the vcs.

Point here is that I'd really like to hear more from dwsn before placing a vote.

[goodmorning]

reinoe, that was the scummiest thing you've said so far. What are you trying to pull?

dwsn, could you maybe comment a little on the gamestate next time you've got a couple minutes? What do you think of me being confTown? Why haven't you voted reinoe yet?

[goodmorning]

The post before that.

[goodmorning]

I've been Town convinced in LyLo and proven wrong before. It's quite possible. And seeing as she made that post without apparently realising that I'm now confTown...

[goodmorning]

@reinoe, I am so done with the length of this game as well...

This is turning out a lot like the first game I played. I am just confused on the fact that GM continually says things like "i've been proven wrong before", in rebuttal to anything reinoe says.

I'm saying he's trying to make things scumtells that aren't scumtells.

Can you please answer my questions from 918?

[goodmorning]

Like I said, I mostly need to hear from dwsn right now.

[goodmorning]

dws just ending this game would take you like 15 minutes

if you keep prolonging i'll take it as a scumclaim and hammer you

[goodmorning]

You really didn't answer any of my other questions thoughhhhh

[goodmorning]

Why are you pushing this direction?

[goodmorning]

I don't like this.

I don't like anything.

Why do I feel like dws is just mislynch bait?

[goodmorning]

When is it good to policy lynch? When there's literally no other way to get rid of a massively detrimental player. Under what circumstances? The aforementioned. Have I seen one? Not a lynch on pure policy, no.

Well actually, maybe? I think there was one on Safety or ppp in a relatively early game of mine; he claimed 1-shot cop with a guilty on someone. He did have a guilty but it wasn't the one he said. That one got lynched and actually I think he was NKd after that so I guess not.

Generally you'll see that policy might occasionally be used as a final straw on a lynchwagon, but seldom as a whole reason.

Anyone that Town-you would seriously consider policy lynching must NEVER be allowed to be in LyLo.

[goodmorning]

Uh? No, the reason I'm not voting for her right this instant is that you making it to LyLo unsettles me.

I've mentioned before that I have pretty stringent standards as to who I consider policy-lynchable, so if somebody met those standards I'd absolutely be pulling for that lynch no matter my alignment.

[goodmorning]

It's unsettling from a point that I want to win the game.

[goodmorning]

ugh WIFOM

and why do you keep asking if she's a PR?

[goodmorning]

reinoe you are not making any sense.

Am I or am I not confTown?

[goodmorning]

reinoe you are not making any sense.

Am I or am I not confTown?

I just think whatever suspicions you have about my towny-cred can't possibly be game related.

wtf are you talking about???

[goodmorning]

My suspicions about you are as follows:
you are picking at weird things
you are still alive

Neither of those is out of game in the slightest.

@dws: Claim so this can stop.

[goodmorning]

@dwsn: That's because he has to call you obvScum because I'm confTown.

[goodmorning]

So just claim already.

[goodmorning]

ughhhhh whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[goodmorning]

oh ballllllssssssss

Vote: dws

I'm done, I don't care anymore.

[goodmorning]

Oh good.

[goodmorning]

@Loot: How did my play boggle you?

lol@ffery "YOU CLAIMED THE COP AS VT"

[goodmorning]

Whoo!

GG all and congrats town!

GM you were killing us in the QT this last game day!

I can only imagine how awful it must have been.

[goodmorning]

Haha, maybe it should've been.

[goodmorning]

You're welcome to ask anything you'd like. Necro'ing the thread may or may not be the best idea though. PMs? MD?

[goodmorning]

@3dice:

meta - I've not really familiarised myself with your meta thus far. I can look it over but it may take a little while.
unvoting a tunnel - For me, I've always found that just doing it works. Sometimes you push someone and they break back in a way that seems really townish. Sometimes you just find better suspects. The better suspects one is the one that tends to look the worst, particularly if it looks opportunistic (your new scumread happens to be a big wagon, for example).
Regardless of the explanation, just do it. When I was in school and my lazy teachers wanted me to take shit somewhere but didn't want to bother writing a pass, they'd just tell me to look like I had every right to be there. It worked. Plenty of greetings, never a "show me your pass."
The less you let on that you're worried about looking Town, the more Town you tend to look.

@reinoe:

It depends on who's dead and how right they usually are on the people they suspected this time.
Using ffery as an example -
She's a good player, and I tend to trust her reads. BUT it's important that I recall this about her - she's sometimes very paranoid, especially in early game and especially if she's up against someone she's
a. been fooled by (esp. recently);
b. been scum with and thought was good; and/or
c. been paranoid of before.

So those factors would weigh in my assessment, as would her own stated confidence in the reads, the point in the game (the later, the better [usually]), and how much I was willing to believe them while she was alive.

So if someone said, "I think X is Scum because he did this," but I don't think X actually did what they say he did and are basing their read on, then I might be more inclined to let that one lie.

And voting X solely because now-dead-Town Y said so is a bad idea.

[goodmorning]

Mostly that's a question for the individual.

Gambiting, for instance, is a terrible strategy for me. It's a great strategy for Cabd.

The best thing to do is look at why people scumread you in this game. Was it something you did/said? Was it just your playstyle? Was it genuinely antiTown?
I wouldn't worry too much about the playstyle question; yours seems fine to me. If it was one specific phrasing or action, figure out why it didn't go down well, then decide what (if anything) to do about it. If it was something genuinely antiTown? Well, now you know and won't do it again.

As for the rest of it: try stuff. See what works for you. Most people don't just magically get great.