Starting at night or with day?

[Mr Stoofer]

Starting in day seems to be very popular nowadays -- perhaps it has even become more common that starting with night. Is this a good thing?

I have to say that as a general rule I prefer to start at night, so that during Day 1 the events of the previous night can get some discussion/speculation/accusations going. Day 1 is hard enough as it is even with a night of results/deaths to work with.

Starting with day used to be the exception rather than the rule. If that has changed, I think it is a retrograde step.

[Patrick]

I prefer day start. I don't like the idea of someone signing up for a game they really want to play, then never even getting to participate. I think as long as you have a few decent pro towners, it shouldn't be that hard to get the game going.

[Zindaras]

I prefer something in between, a setup I use myself: First 72 hours for confirming and posting some early stuff, then a forced No Lynch and Night. Makes Night 1 not completely random.

Not that a Night start is that important. I have some statistics that show that an insane amount of Day 1's lead to scum death, even with Day start.

[Fiasco]

I have to say that as a general rule I prefer to start in day, where the events of the previous nights can get some discussion/speculation/accusations going.

I think you meant "prefer to start in night"?

I don't think N1 events work as a conversation starter; anything you might say about them tends to be jumped on by over-eager townies as some sort of scum tell. It seems to be a huge taboo.

Starting with night can take a lot of momentum out of the game if the night takes too long. Semi-related: I think more games should force people to pre-send conditional night choices, e.g. "if X is lynched I'll investigate Y".

[Thesp]

Night starts can wreck a balanced setup too easily with random(ish?) choices of players. I like mafia where the victory is determined largely (if not solely) on the interaction of the players.

[petroleumjelly]

Ah, the age-old question.

With boring players, I prefer a night-start. Trying to start conversation with people who won't talk until they've had the chance to make a night-choice is both time-consuming and frustrating, and usually isn't helpful until I'm dead anyways.

With fun players, I prefer a day-start, since early conversation should not be difficult to come by. I agree that day-starts make the game more skill-based and less random, but then again, I don't like it when Day One

lasts three months

... not that I'm referencing any game in particular.

[Dead Rikimaru]

Day starts are boring, and their lynches are random (even if Mafia is killed).
After a Night 0 the town have an idea on the number of killing groups involved and the kind of roles that are in the game.
Isn't the idea of the mafia game to find the criminals and bring justice to them? Why lynch someone before a crime has even been commited (like when the game start in Day).

[Zindaras]

Day starts are boring, and their lynches are random (even if Mafia is killed).
After a Night 0 the town have an idea on the number of killing groups involved and the kind of roles that are in the game.

As I said, I've got the stats that scum deaths happen a lot Day One, and that's not something you'd expect if you randomly lynch.

Isn't the idea of the mafia game to find the criminals and bring justice to them? Why lynch someone before a crime has even been commited (like when the game start in Day).

In most games, there is a crime detailed in the story.

Personally, every game I hosted that started with Night saw my favourite roles dying N0, so I'm not going to do that anymore.

[Dead Rikimaru]

Day starts are boring, and their lynches are random (even if Mafia is killed).
After a Night 0 the town have an idea on the number of killing groups involved and the kind of roles that are in the game.

As I said, I've got the stats that scum deaths happen a lot Day One, and that's not something you'd expect if you randomly lynch.

Why not? If it's random...
But seriously Nighteless Day Ones tend to be loooooooong. People don't know what to do. Have no idea about the set up. The ends by deadline and the lynch tend to be random.

Isn't the idea of the mafia game to find the criminals and bring justice to them? Why lynch someone before a crime has even been commited (like when the game start in Day).

In most games, there is a crime detailed in the story.

Personally, every game I hosted that started with Night saw my favourite roles dying N0, so I'm not going to do that anymore.

When you are making the set up that start at night you must take Night0 deaths in consideration.
And not all games have a story.

[Kelly Chen]

First one to mention the SK is the SK.

I prefer something in between, a setup I use myself: First 72 hours for confirming and posting some early stuff, then a forced No Lynch and Night. Makes Night 1 not completely random.

This doesn't seem promising to me, because in this first lynch-free Day no one has much ability to do anything that helps or hurts the town. I guess a player could post something scummy, or roleclaim...

Maybe it is of interest who gets killed N0 (but this takes metagaming skill I think). I'm not sure I've been in a game where that was much discussed. I don't like, though, the possibility that role info is outed immediately on D1, preventing the random voting stage. (An example would be Adele's recent open role game, where D1 started with the tracker informing the town that the blocker had targeted him.)

Day starts are boring, and their lynches are random (even if Mafia is killed).

I don't agree with this. Even if day start D1 lynches are random, they also create information.

If towns put up with random D1 lynches (AND are not learning anything from them) then towns should probably be given less reason to expect that they can afford a random lynch D1. I'm not sure this problem exists, though.

[Patrick]

Day starts are boring, and their lynches are random (even if Mafia is killed).

You should have more faith in the game. Catching scum should depend more on what happens during the day, rather than night.

Isn't the idea of the mafia game to find the criminals and bring justice to them? Why lynch someone before a crime has even been commited (like when the game start in Day).

I wouldn't be too worried about this. It's not as if a mafia game is realistic anyway.

[Fiasco]

First one to mention the SK is the SK.

I'd be interested in seeing statistics on this, but they'd probably be a pain to collect.

I don't like, though, the possibility that role info is outed immediately on D1, preventing the random voting stage.

I'd agree with you if you said "preventing the voting-based-on-words-alone stage". Random votes are boring; for many people they just seem like a ritual to go through before discussion can start.

Even if day start D1 lynches are random, they also create information.

With all the busing going on, I'm not convinced that scum lynch town more than scum lynch scum.

Catching scum should depend more on what happens during the day, rather than night.

I agree it's more fun that way, but IMHO people overestimate how well people can tell town from scum using only conversation/votes.

[Patrick]

With all the busing going on, I'm not convinced that scum lynch town more than scum lynch scum.

Maybe, but when you look at the way a lynch builds up, you can sometimes tell who was genuine and who was just busing.

[Kelly Chen]

First one to mention the SK is the SK.

I'd be interested in seeing statistics on this, but they'd probably be a pain to collect.

I don't know anything specifically like this, but it definitely happens that scum find themselves in trouble for letting slip some knowledge about the setup (especially what the scum are made up of).

I don't like, though, the possibility that role info is outed immediately on D1, preventing the random voting stage.

I'd agree with you if you said "preventing the voting-based-on-words-alone stage". Random votes are boring; for many people they just seem like a ritual to go through before discussion can start.

I don't understand what you're saying you would agree with. It doesn't seem like you would agree with this quote if I had changed the wording that way.

[Fiasco]

Usually first there's a round of random votes, then someone might comment on a random bandwagon or start some other discussion, then someone might comment on that, and so on, and maybe at some point someone will bring up role-based information. Missing the random-voting stage itself doesn't bother me, but missing the stages after that does.

[Thesp]

Day starts are boring, and their lynches are random (even if Mafia is killed).

I don't agree with this. Even if day start D1 lynches are random, they also create information.

If towns put up with random D1 lynches (AND are not learning anything from them) then towns should probably be given less reason to expect that they can afford a random lynch D1. I'm not sure this problem exists, though.

Lynches are

never

random. (Barring some stupid, stupid role that would actually force a lynch based on a RNG.) Mafia is a game of complex social interactions, sometimes so intricate that they baffle us, and appear beyond our control. This lack of comprehension of the complex factors which go into who gets lynched, which we all to some degree share (aside from the omniscient creator who sees things unfolding), ought not be confused with randomness.

[Zindaras]

Why not? If it's random...

Scum won't vote other scum in the random phase. This is something I've seen on another site where Day 1 truly

is

random. Everyone votes randomly. (then again, the setup is 24 hours=1 day)

But seriously Nighteless Day Ones tend to be loooooooong. People don't know what to do. Have no idea about the set up. The ends by deadline and the lynch tend to be random.

Lynches are definitely not random Day One.

When you are making the set up that start at night you must take Night0 deaths in consideration.

Of course I do, but that won't make me happier when my favourite role dies.

And not all games have a story.

I think all games should have.

This doesn't seem promising to me, because in this first lynch-free Day no one has much ability to do anything that helps or hurts the town. I guess a player could post something scummy, or roleclaim...

Maybe it is of interest who gets killed N0 (but this takes metagaming skill I think). I'm not sure I've been in a game where that was much discussed. I don't like, though, the possibility that role info is outed immediately on D1, preventing the random voting stage. (An example would be Adele's recent open role game, where D1 started with the tracker informing the town that the blocker had targeted him.)

Other people are using the setup right now, and I'm watching with much interest.

Another option is to let the players decide, in a preliminary vote.

[Trojan Horse]

No need to have a preliminary vote to decide on day start or night start, Zindaras. Just make it a day start. If the town really wants a night start, they can just vote no lynch.

(Not that I recommend voting no lynch, of course, but the option is there.)

[GreenLiquid]

I usually perfer night starts to get momentum going, but did experiment with day starts in Sesame Street mini. If you have a night-based special gimmick, then by all means start in night. Starting with night also leads to early setup speculation (such as who performed each kill, what the kill methods mean, why who got targeted got targeted, what someone's role name means, etc.) and probably nothing gets a game going faster than setup speculation.

If you want the traditional night start but without Night 1 targets missing out on the game, do a cop-head start (basically where only power-roles get to make choices on the night, but if you do this you should make sure there's enough balance to counteract this substantial benefit on the town's side).

[CrashTextDummie]

I have no preference either way, really. Both methods have their charms.

[Coron]

I said day because it is the better of the two options, but cop head start ftfw.

[Mr. Flay]

I said it could go either way,but I think in most situations Day Start is cleaner than Night Start; it doesn't eliminate strong players getting NKed for metagame reasons, it gives everyone a chance to make more informed N1 choices, and it makes players less reliant on power roles. As someone else said, if the group really wishes, they can force Night Start by not lynching anyone.

[Yosarian2]

Day 1 lynches are not random; at the very least, the mafia know who each other are, so their votes are certanly not random.

Night start isn't bad in a big game, especally one of those misetings style games where there's lots of people who get some vauge ambiguas piece of information night zero that can lead to interesting day 1 discussion, but in general, day starts are better. Especally in small game; I don't imagine that there's any 12 person non-vanillia game where the wrong person getting killed night zero couldn't dramatically change the balance of the game.

[IH]

I think it really doesn't matter (Except for a small game of course) but I'd prefer a day start. You can't really use the information you get at night as town because... I mean come on. It's random kills. You can't make any connections until you get to day one.

Day one lynches are random? Most certainly not.

[Glork]

I think it depends on the games. In a game with a theme/schtick that everybody should get to enjoy, I think it's worth starting in day. If it's a fairly normal-ish game, I have no problem with a night start. If I get killed N0, I just go "Meh, oh well" and sign up for a new game.