Starting at night or with day?

[LyingBrian]

i really think it's very frustrating to sign up for a game, then get killed N0... starting in day allows the lynch to occur based on the players after they've gotten the chance to interact w/ each other, rather than before...

[molestargazer]

When I started running games on things such as clan forums, I always started on Day - this was so people didn't hate the game if they were killed immediately. I have, however, played some games which have started on night - I don't really mind either way, and I certainly don't know the norm.

[EmpTyger]

/prefer night start

[Note: N1 in this post refers to the first night, regardless of whether the game is starting in day or night.]
Perhaps I'm too much a stoic, but I don't mind N1 deaths. (Or alternatively, having clever and creative roles get killed off before they have a chance to be played.) It's happened to me, and, forgive my fatalism, but I see it as part of the game- someone's got to die first.

So I can't help but compare to real-life mafia, because this is actually what I see as one of the key differences between it and online play. Whoever gets N1killed irl is stuck waiting for the current game to finish in order to play another. There's no way around it. Getting N1killed with night-start means that they have to effectively sit out a game. Not fun. At least with day-start there's a little bit of playing to be had, and arguably they can affect to some degree whether they'll live further. But online: there's never a delay to get back into a new game. In fact, it's arguably easier- the N1killed player doesn't have to become invested in a game that they won't be able to participate in. But the increased number of games allows the thematic creativities, so that creates the issue of the player who was particularly looking forward to a theme.

As for N1 choices being merely random, well, they aren't, albeit on a metagame level? Players are differentiated by their history. This might not be "pure", but it's certainly a feature irl mafia. (There might be an exception regarding newbie players, who could be equally unfamiliar which each and every one else playing in their game, but newbie games' day-start seems sacrosanct for other reasons.) In any case, even stipulating that N1 kills are random, a similar argument could be made that D1 kills are equally so.

And as far as affecting the setup: if a single night can that break the game, I'd think that the setup has bigger problems than whether it is beginning in day or night…?

So, then why a preference? I’m not actually sure. I think it probably has to do with irl tradition: that’s how I learned to play, and that’s what feels, on some personally instinctive level, fun. That eerie feeling of “everybody close your eyes… everyone open your eyes… X is dead… game on.” This isn’t so much an in-game flavor argument; I mean, there are lots of arguable problems with the flavor in mafia games. It’s more of a direct appeal to emotion, I guess?

That, or a touch of mafia sympathy. Good question, Stoofer.

[Mr Stoofer]

Good answer, EmpTyger.

[pablito]

I was looking over this thread and saw a few people refer to the first night in night-start as N1 and others as N0. Is there a standard of what is N1

and if not, why hasn't there yet?

It seems to be confusing when people have to comment on N1 only to have to actually define which one was N1.

Also, when people refer to either N0 or N1 is there a non-mafia reason why it was numbered that way (circadian cyles, metaphysics, etc.)?

[ChannelDelibird]

I prefer Day start, because I prefer everyone getting a chance to play and all the roles being given a sufficient chance to shine, particularly in theme games.

[Ancalagon]

I'm currently involved with one with a night start, but there are no NKs on that night.

That seems to be the best to me.

[Mr. Flay]

I was looking over this thread and saw a few people refer to the first night in night-start as N1 and others as N0. Is there a standard of what is N1

and if not, why hasn't there yet?

It seems to be confusing when people have to comment on N1 only to have to actually define which one was N1.

Also, when people refer to either N0 or N1 is there a non-mafia reason why it was numbered that way (circadian cyles, metaphysics, etc.)?

I usually only call it N0 if there's some limitation to it (the pre-game in C9s, Cop Head Starts or the like). Otherwise it's N1 whether it comes before or after D1... which isn't very consistent, you're right. My brain always wants to put Night X after Day X though, so I would support a convention that Night Start games are actually beginning with N0. I couldn't sort out in Bastard Mod whether it was N7 or N6, so I just didn't number them, but that's a cop-out/bastardy...

[Mr Stoofer]

I think the results of this poll would have been very different 12-18 months ago.

Fashions change on mafiascum - e.g. scum masons were very common a year ago but have now (thankfully) disappeared. Day starts were rare (Newbie games were a notable exception, and I mean "notable") but now they are, perhaps, the norm.

This sort of thing is all to the good, I say.

[mikehart]

I am not a fan of day starts at all when I run games. I always start a game at N1. This allows the uninformed majority to actually get SOME information to begin discussions. That and since I generally run themed/weird games it allows the players to at least begin to speculate upon the set-up and I thoroughly enjoy watching the little minions be wrong.

[Seol]

I am not a fan of day starts at all when I run games. I always start a game at N1. This allows the uninformed majority to actually get SOME information to begin discussions. That and since I generally run themed/weird games it allows the players to at least begin to speculate upon the set-up and I thoroughly enjoy watching the little minions be wrong.

Why do you need information? The whole point about being town is you're

un

informed. A town that can't function on the day discussions alone is setting themselves up to lose.

[mikehart]

I am not a fan of day starts at all when I run games. I always start a game at N1. This allows the uninformed majority to actually get SOME information to begin discussions. That and since I generally run themed/weird games it allows the players to at least begin to speculate upon the set-up and I thoroughly enjoy watching the little minions be wrong.

Why do you need information? The whole point about being town is you're

un

informed. A town that can't function on the day discussions alone is setting themselves up to lose.

because I for one absolutely refuse to believe that the game can be won just by the way people post. not everyone acts the same way as scum and town. I for one, even while scum still try to catch scum. but thats me and my opinion.

[Seol]

I am not a fan of day starts at all when I run games. I always start a game at N1. This allows the uninformed majority to actually get SOME information to begin discussions. That and since I generally run themed/weird games it allows the players to at least begin to speculate upon the set-up and I thoroughly enjoy watching the little minions be wrong.

Why do you need information? The whole point about being town is you're

un

informed. A town that can't function on the day discussions alone is setting themselves up to lose.

because I for one absolutely refuse to believe that the game can be won just by the way people post. not everyone acts the same way as scum and town. I for one, even while scum still try to catch scum. but thats me and my opinion.

So you think Mountainous games are effectively completely random and/or meaningless?

How do you catch scum when you don't have a role?

If you're justifying night 1s on the information gained, what information coming out day 1 is more useful to the town than the damage done by having a power role revealed? Cop results don't affect day 1 play 95% of the time. Speculating on the meaning of the nightkills is almost universally recognised as a scum tell and hence doesn't lead to much discussion.

[Primate]

Also, if you're disregarding the way people behave because of the reasons you say, then how do the cops/other information roles know who to target?

Dethy's ok, but if all mafia was like that, it really wouldn't be any fun.

[mikehart]

I am not a fan of day starts at all when I run games. I always start a game at N1. This allows the uninformed majority to actually get SOME information to begin discussions. That and since I generally run themed/weird games it allows the players to at least begin to speculate upon the set-up and I thoroughly enjoy watching the little minions be wrong.

Why do you need information? The whole point about being town is you're

un

informed. A town that can't function on the day discussions alone is setting themselves up to lose.

because I for one absolutely refuse to believe that the game can be won just by the way people post. not everyone acts the same way as scum and town. I for one, even while scum still try to catch scum. but thats me and my opinion.

So you think Mountainous games are effectively completely random and/or meaningless?

How do you catch scum when you don't have a role?

If you're justifying night 1s on the information gained, what information coming out day 1 is more useful to the town than the damage done by having a power role revealed? Cop results don't affect day 1 play 95% of the time. Speculating on the meaning of the nightkills is almost universally recognised as a scum tell and hence doesn't lead to much discussion.

i should clarify. i don't think skill can be the sole factor in a win. for instance in a mountainous game luck would have an equal part of the outcome as skill. as for how i catch scum i do use posting analysis to an extent but because i realize how different people are on a base level i don't rely so heavily upon it. for instance I know that my bandwagon jumping may seem scummy to many but often im not scum. its just the way i am. i tend to take games as precisely that. a game. i have fun with the arguments my jumping creates.

and again as for the information gained with a night 1, to me speculating game structure is not a scum tell. there are no universal scum tells. i tend to analyze every game structure im in to see if i can figure it out even when im not scum and i will post my thoughts. and also my arguments were based mostly on themed/weird mechanics games

[mikehart]

Also, if you're disregarding the way people behave because of the reasons you say, then how do the cops/other information roles know who to target?

Dethy's ok, but if all mafia was like that, it really wouldn't be any fun.

gut feelings, randomness, and a small amount of post analysis. as an information role any choice you make will yield meaningful information. a confirmed innocent is almost but not quite as useful as a nailed scum

[Seol]

i should clarify. i don't think skill can be the sole factor in a win. for instance in a mountainous game luck would have an equal part of the outcome as skill.

I'm not talking about luck v skill, I'm taling about how to sensibly play day 1. But while we're on the subject of luck, wouldn't you agree that games with N0 starts are

more

affected by luck than games with N1 starts?

as for how i catch scum i do use posting analysis to an extent but because i realize how different people are on a base level i don't rely so heavily upon it. for instance I know that my bandwagon jumping may seem scummy to many but often im not scum. its just the way i am. i tend to take games as precisely that. a game. i have fun with the arguments my jumping creates.

there are no universal scum tells.

Posting analysis doesn't mean looking for universal scum tells. There's a difference between a scum tell and scummy behaviour. One exists in isolation, and the other is about consistency and motivation. It's the latter that's productive.

and again as for the information gained with a night 1, to me speculating game structure is not a scum tell.

No, but it's bad strategy. It betrays information about your own role, which is useful to the scum.

i tend to analyze every game structure im in to see if i can figure it out even when im not scum and i will post my thoughts. and also my arguments were based mostly on themed/weird mechanics games

Analysing game structure is potentially dangerous, but also potentially really powerful. However, it's not a good

day 1

tactic for the reasons cited above.

Starting in night is fine if you want to, well, increase the number of nights (more cop resuts etc). However, I don't see that it helps the town have things to discuss

on day 1

.

[Fiasco]

Seol, do you think it's possible for a careful player to 1) speculate on the setup without giving away role information, or 2) speculate on the setup while only giving away role information such as benefits the town more than the scum?

[Mr. Flay]

Starting with night definitely gives people more to talk about; I'm not sure why Seol is saying otherwise. Whether it gives them anything

of value

to talk about, or balances well against the totally uninformed N0 choices, is up for debate...

[Seol]

Seol, do you think it's possible for a careful player to 1) speculate on the setup without giving away role information,

I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I'm not sure it's possible to speculate on the setup without giving away information about your expectations of the setup, though (that's the whole point of speculation on the setup) - and that's useful to the scum as it helps steer them towards what types of fake claims are more/less likely to be believed.

or 2) speculate on the setup while only giving away role information such as benefits the town more than the scum?

Nothing occurs to me. Do you have something in mind?

[Zindaras]

If you'll look at statistics (I've gathered them not on this site, admittedly, but a comparable one), you'll find that, very often, the scum lynch percentage Day One is higher than randomness prescribes.

Starting on Day is not something which screws the town. Also, EmpTyger, your view on Night-kills, good. I see it as a compliment a lot as well. But when you get killed Night 0 every bloody time, it starts to get real annoying.

That's also a reason why I'm a fan of Day-starts.

[Yosarian2]

Posting analysis doesn't mean looking for universal scum tells. There's a difference between a scum tell and scummy behaviour. One exists in isolation, and the other is about consistency and motivation. It's the latter that's productive.

Well, I tend to think there are some universal scum tells. The basic question, for me, is "ignoring WIFOM, would what he's doing help the scum if he got away with it?" So lurking, or trying to out the doc, or defending someone who turned out to be scum, using crap logic to lynch a good guy, or suggesting a stratagy that would hurt the town, are all "pure" and universal scum tells. Dosn't mean that the person who did the action IS scum, but the odds are higher.

There are also psychological scum tells that some people think are universal, but I tend to put a lot less weight on those.

No, but it's bad strategy. It betrays information about your own role, which is useful to the scum.

Well, sometimes, depending on how you do it and why. In some games, though, "what roles might exist" or "what the setup probably includes" can be quite important information for the town to have; for example if you think there's probably not a doctor in the game, it might be good to say so, becuase that might help the cop make a better decision about when to claim. And besides, just giving the town game-relevent something to talk about day 1 is an inherent good for the town, I think, unless it's outweighed by harm done by the conversation.

[ubertimmy]

When I run scumchat games, I commonly allow players to vote for night/day start. I'd imagine there's something to be gained as a player from this voting. As for what comes up more often, I'm not quite sure.

[Yosarian2]

Before or after they get their roles?

[Fircoal]

Day start mainly. It's better at that everyone gets to play a bit, and it gives town a head start. As for when I'm playing, I like night when I'm scum, and day when I'm townie.