Gunsmiths and Godfathers

[Fiasco]

Once you've caught two goons in a mini, innocent results are pretty meaningless; if you treat them as meaningful, it's your own fault.

[Adele]

Yeah, but you know it's possible. Godfathers are pretty much standard nowadays and SK perks aren't all that uncommon. A cop would still be very much a boon for the town. 10 correct results out of 12 really isn't all that bad.

a naive cop gives 8 out of 12, and is worse than vanilla, right? That doesn't really hold up, unless you realise he's semi-naive and can only confirm the bads, not the goods.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, an example of Stoofer's 3rd Law. The Town would, perhaps, have been better off without the gunsmith.

No, not at all. Each piece of informaiton the town gets increases their odds of winning. Gunsmith information is not straight "town/not town", but it is information nonetheless, and can at least help you evaluate claims. You see a gun on the mafia, he claims vanillia, you know he's scum. You get no gun on the SK, and he claims vig, you know he's lying. Either way it's useful.

[Thesp]

Godfathers are pretty much standard nowadays

I see this as a bad thing.

and SK perks aren't all that uncommon.

This is a good thing.

Why not have it fairly clear for the cops that they can't detect SK or other scum (receive "mafia/not mafia" results)? That would at least increase the ratio of "correct" results, if we are intent on keeping Mafia Godfathers.

[CoolBot]

In the case of a gunsmith, it should be fairly clear that the information isn't scum/not scum but gun/no gun, so I don't see a problem. I like roles like this because it forces the town to not rely on cop results so much while still keeping them useful.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

a naive cop gives 8 out of 12, and is worse than vanilla, right? That doesn't really hold up, unless you realise he's semi-naive and can only confirm the bads, not the goods.

A naive cop is only worse than vanilla because he might confirm a goon and that's something the town isn't going to take into consideration. As long as he doesn't investigate the goons, he's useful.

A standard cop confirms the townies to some extent and he definitely catches the goons. That's 10 out of 12 useful results. And the 2 bad results aren't damning, as opposed to the naive cop.

[Dragon Phoenix]

The game in which I introduced the gunsmith (the notorious 24 at the GL) also was the first to have a mafia GF in the mason group. The gunsmith checked the mason GF and found that he had a gun. He even posted something to that extent (the masons apparently are armed). It was one of my counter measures to balance the game inspite of a mafia mason.

So far the history. Every mod is of course free to take the role as he or she sees fit, as long as it makse sense. Having a GF kill by gun and the gunsmith find a "no gun"on the GF is ridiculous.

[Mr Stoofer]

Ah, an example of Stoofer's 3rd Law. The Town would, perhaps, have been better off without the gunsmith.

No, not at all. Each piece of informaiton the town gets increases their odds of winning. Gunsmith information is not straight "town/not town", but it is information nonetheless, and can at least help you evaluate claims. You see a gun on the mafia, he claims vanillia, you know he's scum. You get no gun on the SK, and he claims vig, you know he's lying. Either way it's useful.

I agree that every piece of information the town gets increases their chance of winning. But in this set-up, "X has/has not got a gun" was ambiguous in all cases and downright misleading in some cases (the Miller, the GF). Basically, the gunsmith/Town had no reliable way of interpreting the information and it just led to confusion and error.

[Mr. Flay]

Of course the town can use the information; see CoolBot. In a non Bastard-Mod game, someone with a gun is highly unlikely to be a Townie, Doc, or Cowardly Reporter. A Vigilante, Cop, and Goon are highly unlikely to lack a gun. It gives you information, just not the straightforward "lynch 'em" information that is foolproof to interpret.