On the Issue of Villiage Idiots (VI's)

[Frozen Atlantic]

Sucking at Mafia does not make you a townie.

Honored to be quoted. Always lynch the VI.

If he's scum, you've nailed newb scum.
If he's town, the scum would have kept him around anyway as a patsy for later in the game. Being a newb that sucks at Mafia, they'd just hurt themselves and waste a lynch when it really hurts you, in endgame.
Worst case scenario? Power role. But you know what, give me VanillaEmp or VanillaThok or VanillaPJ over any superpowered newbcake you can name.

I can recall some stats thread where town winning percentages triple when a particular VI was lynched early. I can't claim to be an ultra hardcore math graph making Mafia player, but if you're really really bad at a game of reason, I can't rely on you to help me win.

[Adel]

If true, that is an interesting stat. My hunch is that the utility of lynching the VI is directly proportional to the number of players in the game. Large game = possibly good idea. C7 = horrid idea.

[Kelly Chen]

*C9

I agree. It's better if you have vigs to do it though.

[Mgm]

VI and newb are not neccessarily the same. I can name at least 1 VI who I wouldn't consider newbie by a long shot, but I'll withhold the name for privacy reasons. Suffice to say, ICs can be just as idiotic as newbs.

[The Fonz]

. Suffice to say, ICs can be just as idiotic as newbs.

VICs, I suppose.

[xyzzy]

*C9

I agree. It's better if you have vigs to do it though.

*E7.



Oh, and always lynch VIs, before they even become suspect players.

[EmpTyger]

Firstly and shamelessly: I’m not sure whether I should be flattered or insulted to be compared to Thok and pj. Either way, FA, honored.

Secondly and tangentially: What happens if you replace “plays badly” (and the like) with “lurks” in Nabakov’s original post? The premise, and indeed the rest of the discussion, do seem to hold.

Thirdly and cryptically: This seems to be a surprisingly difficult geopolitical point, of which I don’t think I should say any more about here, for this will very easily veer into trolling. (If anyone is interested in further discussing this line even with this warning, I suppose I would be willing to discuss it in a separate thread; I urge it not be brought up further here for it will almost certainly derail this topic.) But the fact that there seems to be a connection is, to me at least, surprisingly interesting.

Fourthly, but relevantly: I think all discussions of “bad play” have to be tempered by the fact that that label can easily become subjective. (Which I’m assuming why Thesp said Rosso was *almost* entirely wrong.) The definition of bad play should be play that causes the player to lose. There’s still lots of quibbling possible on what that is, to be certain. But it’s more than mere style.

Ultimately: How is a protown playing badly different- or distinguishable- from an antitown playing well?

[AniX]

Take AniX. I consider him one of the most upstanding players on this site. He's awesome, great at catching scum, but because he lurks so much, all the attention is on him. Now he might be, but thats what cops are for {btw, youre a good cop if you inv people you can't read, NOT if you investigate people you think are scum, that makes you a bad cop, but thats for another thread}

I merely thank you for the compliment and remind everyone to remember that I don't lurk because I hate you, but because I love you so much and I want to share my gift of time-based skill with you.

[NabakovNabakov]

@ EmpTyger: This isn't supposed to be a discussion about lurking and how it causes bad play (or how lurking might be a valid playstyle). This is a discussion about how bad play (no matter what form it takes) affects the game from a tactical standpoint, and I will agree that bad play can probably best be defined "any play that causes a player, or their faction, to lose or come close to losing." Bad posts can be short and spread out or long and almost constant, but many of the tactical issues remain.

How do you, as town, get tells on a player who has no idea what they're doing?
How do you, as scum, work a player's incompetence to your advantage (or deal with having a crappy scum partner)?

I did not start this thread with any intention of making a political statement, and I have a great deal of respect for any play as long as it can be defined "good."

Once again, I would like to emphasize

Tactical

. This is about accepting the presence bad play, and in accepting it, opening up new areas for discussion, strategy, and tactics.

[Mr. Flay]

Fourthly, but relevantly: I think all discussions of “bad play” have to be tempered by the fact that that label can easily become subjective. (Which I’m assuming why Thesp said Rosso was *almost* entirely wrong.) The definition of bad play should be play that causes the player to lose. There’s still lots of quibbling possible on what that is, to be certain. But it’s more than mere style.

Absolutely; in a recent game with Rosso, I had to keep excusing behavior I would have lynched anyone else for because I *know* that's how Rosso plays. But if I'd been in the endgame with him, I probably would have lynched him at that point (luckily, I got nightkilled instead ). I don't consider that a good playstyle, but I don't think Rosso's actually that much of a Village Idiot.

There's at least four playstyles to look for: Competent Townie, Incompetent Townie, Competent Scum, and Incompetent Scum. The second and third are the hardest to distinguish, normally...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd also like to point out that being awful at Mafia isn't a flaw limited to idiots. Very clever and articulate people can also be quite awful at mafia.

You're talking about me, aren't you?

yes, being bad at mafia is not limited to you, Stoofer.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug*

no one's bad if they win. a shitty looking player can find scum and a scum can get to L-1 every day, but if theyre alive at the end of the day theyre better than you

=P

This post is almost entirely wrong.

QFT. BM won a game as scum...proves you wrong right there...

In all seriousness, though, there are games where people play horribly and still win. That doesn't make them any less bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There is a frequent argument out there that lynching bad townies is helpful for the town. This is a terrible argument, and it needs to stop. It is the path of least resistance, and a terrible excuse. (It's frequently used as, "Well, if he's not scum, at worst we're killing a townie that will harm us, so VI can't be a bad lynch.")

QFT AGAIN. Thesp is on a roll. That argument is the easiest thing for scum to hide behind, it's great...for scum...

[Yosarian2]

QFT. BM won a game as scum...proves you wrong right there...

In all seriousness, though, there are games where people play horribly and still win. That doesn't make them any less bad.

To be fair, BM won that game in large part because he played it well (or at least "less bad then everyone else" )

[Albert B. Rampage]

QFT. BM won a game as scum...proves you wrong right there...

In all seriousness, though, there are games where people play horribly and still win. That doesn't make them any less bad.

To be fair, BM won that game in large part because he played it well (or at least "less bad then everyone else" )

My theory is that someone else was impersonating him.

[Mr. Flay]

Now that's just being insulting. Are you so convinced he can't improve?

[Albert B. Rampage]

No, I just think he's always town.

[Rosso Carne]

then hes doing well i guess.

thx flay, always thought you hated me.

[Maz Medias]

The thing is, good townies and good scum have COMPLETELY different skillsets.

I'm much better as scum than as town, for example, as you can see by looking at my game histories. I absolutely blow as town, but perform fairly well as scum, especially in mafias.

Some players are the opposite, and some are good at both.

[NabakovNabakov]

In an attempt to revive this thread, I present the example of Nekka-Lucifer in Mini 451. He was basically lynched for being the VI, and I, as scum, used it as an opportunity to build cred with the town for following days (too bad Pickem was an infallible cop)

[pickemgenius]

WE TOTALLY PWNZERD TEH SCUMZ.


BTW ITS MINI 451

[NabakovNabakov]

What the hell are you talking about Pickem? I got the game number right the first time. You really need to get your reading glasses.

[pickemgenius]

pfffft.

[JordanA24]

If he's scum, you've nailed newb scum.
If he's town, the scum would have kept him around anyway as a patsy for later in the game. Being a newb that sucks at Mafia, they'd just hurt themselves and waste a lynch when it really hurts you, in endgame.
Worst case scenario? Power role. But you know what, give me VanillaEmp or VanillaThok or VanillaPJ over any superpowered newbcake you can name.

Aboslutely agree with you there FA, pretty much spot on.

Newbie's really should play their first game in a newbie,if they're no good, at least they can get help from an IC, and if they truly are awful, they know that the game isn't for them. Rather a newbie game ruined by a VI than a larger game that more people are playing in, and that a mod has spent time developing and checking for balance.

[The Fonz]

If one VI is enough to ruin a large game, it wasn't that well set-up to begin with.