Mini 475 - CA9653 Mafia (Mod Abandoned)

[Gaspode]

Damn simu-posting.

gaspode is scum

i just have a feeling

Personally, I think it would've been prudent to wait and see what I had to say for myself, but obviously that hasn't been the dominating style of play in this game.

Anything to back that up, or just a feeling? I'd be pretty disappointed in you if you couldn't find anything at least worth mentioning--mainly my chickening out at the end of a wagon that was basically fueled by my posts, after yelling at the town for chickening out earlier. I can understand that argument, if that's the one you're making, but this time I felt we needed a bit more time, and the only way to do that was to unvote.

[GodOfWine]

well since it was obviously fruitless, i might as well just admit i was seeing if i could get some strange reactions out of a post with direct accusations and no support except for "a feeling". anyway, it failed lol. im really not suspicious of you gaspode honestly, because youve been consistent with your reasoning even in that area you called flip-flopping, you stayed with the same logic, just a different outlook

[AlSleet]

It looks to me like he's eager to get destructor out of the way so he can say he led a pro-town crusade against someone who seemed a liability.

pro-town crusade? get off your high horse. destructor is the obvious choice to lynch to avoid the deadline. first of all he practically begged to be lynched one he returned to L-2, and second of all he's the only player who has ever held a vote majority

Holding the majority of the votes doesn't mean anything. He played erratically at the beginning of the game and people saw the opportunity to put suspicion on him and draw it away from themselves. I don't believe that he is scum. I still think you're pushing for this lynch so you can be seen as someone who tried to take pro-town action and try to clear yourself, even if he turns up town after the lynch.

[Mert]

Votecount

destructor

(4)

Panzerjager, GodOfWine, Paradoxombie, Aceiks

GodOfWine

(2)

Ripley, AlSleet

death_omen

(1)

destructor

Not Voting

(4):

TooMuchPete, death_omen, Flameaxe, Gaspode

Six'll do it to it.

[Ripley]

pro-town crusade? get off your high horse. destructor is the obvious choice to lynch to avoid the deadline. first of all he practically begged to be lynched one he returned to L-2, and second of all he's the only player who has ever held a vote majority

This is a terrible argument. We do not have a deadline, and I have never, once, known a mod to impose one as long as there was a decent level of posting. Ironically, destructor, who has posted pretty much every day except when he was away, is probably the single player who's done the most to keep a deadline at bay. Notice how posting immediately flagged during his absence. I can see that people would have held back from getting him lynched while he wasn't around to defend himself, but there was no need for posting to stop altogether. It's when games stall that you get deadlines, and stalled games and deadlines are helpful for scum.

[PJ.]

Unvote, Vote GodOfWine

Wanting a fast lynch and all this deadline talk are making me feel more positive about the people wanting him lynched. I'm still suspicious of Paradoxombie for earlier though. I also am a little suspicious of Destructor, genrally the lynchs that take the longest are on scum. I feel if he was town he'd be lynched already. It would surprise me if both destructor and GodofWine were scum. I think xombie fits well with both and Gaspode fits rather well with GoW. Aceiks seems like a good candidate if Destructor is scum. Alright i've said my piece.

[Gaspode]

well since it was obviously fruitless, i might as well just admit i was seeing if i could get some strange reactions out of a post with direct accusations and no support except for "a feeling". anyway, it failed lol. im really not suspicious of you gaspode honestly, because youve been consistent with your reasoning even in that area you called flip-flopping, you stayed with the same logic, just a different outlook

I appreciate the vote of confidence. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't make you look less scummy in my eyes. Actually, it just continues your strange pattern of posting in my eyes, with the added bonus of giving me the feeling that you're trying to take me down with you. This, coupled with my reasoning from last night and many of my previous posts, has led me to my decision:

Vote: GodOfWine

. Obviously, I'll keep looking at Destructor in the future as well, but GodOfWine seems like the best choice for today.

[TooMuchPete]

I began to suspect that he may be mafia with death after he unvoted death_omen.

You do realize that my death_omen vote was a joke/random page 1 vote, right? This is a point I've made (I think) twice now, but you continue to harp on my unvote. Why is that?

Despite that, I'm becoming less sure of my lean towards Destructor. Inspite of himself, there are some other interesting arguments out there, that I really need a little more time to unpack. I would say that I disagree with this though:

He's making a big effort in his most recent post to get his final thoughts down in case he's lynched, and you don't usually find scum who think they're going down bothering to take all that trouble to fabricate material

That's only true if you take for granted that he's going to be lynched. I don't see that as a foregone conclusion. Right now there's a solid start towards that end, but there's also enough hesitation to keep it from happening, and if that hesitation can be converted into support, by way of (hypothetically) "fabricating material" then it seems like it would be a perfectly reasonable course of action for scum.

That's not to say that I think that post MAKES him scummy, I don't think that at all, but I see it as a very reasonable and neutral tactic from either side of the game. Am I missing something in that analysis?

[destructor]

TMP:

I found this odd seeing as it came right after death had made the questionable vote on me.

I would have thought that, random or not, your vote would have had some reason to stay on death_omen.

I think I've raised this before but in light of recent events, it could be interesting to point it out again:
In the same post you unvoted death_omen, you noted your suspicions of Panzer, GoW and I, yet only FoSed me and Panzer.

[TooMuchPete]

TMP:

I found this odd seeing as it came right after death had made the questionable vote on me.

I would have thought that, random or not, your vote would have had some reason to stay on death_omen.

I think I've raised this before but in light of recent events, it could be interesting to point it out again:
In the same post you unvoted death_omen, you noted your suspicions of Panzer, GoW and I, yet only FoSed me and Panzer.

Two othings re: my death_omen vote.
1. "Right after"? If by "right after" you mean 7 hours later and with 14 intervening posts, then sure, it was "right after".
2. If that's why you found it odd, why did you ask me about my random vote reason? To quote: "TMP, what was that 'bad feeling' about death_omen, and what happened to it when you Unvoted him?" And, unsurprisingly you FoS'd me for unvoting him right after your OMGUS vote. Color me shocked.

As for the GoW/Panzer/Destro thing, it's pretty simple and I've explained it before: my suspicion for GodOfWine was not anywhere near as strong as it was for you and panzer. (if this is an incorrect use of FoS, I'd love for someone other than destructor to say so.)

[GodOfWine]

i kind of figured before i started my whole last set of posts that i would be persecuted for wanting the lynch to occur faster. to be entirely honest, everyone in this game is equally suspicious to me at this point. everyone has said some questionable things and everyone has made some desperate attempts at recovery.

earlier, i was putting the pressure on the group to make up their minds and get a lynch done sheerly because i felt that day one was totally stagnant. i see that my actions have caused some thread-motion, if only to draw increasing suspicion towards myself. if the collective suspicion does move away from me at some future point, i will probably be accused of bandwagoning. but i have to admit. for the length of this game that is what i have been doing. because nobody is helping the town right now. these 200+ post days only give the mafia more time to shift the suspicion. hopefully its not too late.

i dont regret this post if it brings me to L-1. only if it gets me lynched lol

[Gaspode]

Alright, we're coming up on 24 hours without a post, people. I've said pretty much all I can for now, but many of you have hardly said anything recently. At this rate, we're going to be deadlined, and I think it's important that we hear everyone weigh in before the end of the day.

[Aceiks]

... everyone in this game is equally suspicious to me at this point.... ... i will probably be accused of bandwagoning. but i have to admit. for the length of this game that is what i have been doing. because nobody is helping the town right now. these 200+ post days only give the mafia more time to shift the suspicion. hopefully its not too late.

i dont regret this post if it brings me to L-1. only if it gets me lynched lol

I really dislike this last point made by GoW and have hopefully kept the two sections that struck me as the most odd. "Everyone is equally suspicious to me"? I'm not terribly sure how that's possible at this stage in the game. Unfortunately, the several posts above me seem to be right. The more they open their mouths, the less scummy destructor gets and the more scummy GoW gets. The last several posts from GoW have really been out there. From the lame fishing post immediately previous to Gaspode's post to this one... it just keeps getting worse from him.

Then he admits that he's been bandwagoning this entire day and states that days with a lot of posts are bad for the town? I'm decently sure information is pro-town. The "proof" that he was looking for earlier in this game has now convienently been forgotten. Now he just wants the day over. I am willing to help in that quest.

Unvote: destructor Vote: GoW

On a unrelated note: flame_axe's behavior in this game is almost unexcusable. The way he answer's the mod's PM's and panzer's request for a replacement just in time to avoid being replaced almost seems to indicate he's lurking on purpose. The only post he has made the entire game (outside random voting) has been a post that covered points that were already discussed pages ago.

Mod

If possible I would like a "serious" prod sent to flame_axe. His involvement in this game has been negligible.

If he is lurking on purpose, then so be it. We may have to deal with him tomorrow. It bugs me how people can stay out of suspicion by posting the absolute barest of minimums. He hasn't pinged on anyone's radar simply because he hasn't participated. I'd like to hear his thoughts fairly soon and a comitment to post more regularly.

[destructor]

I'd post more on the game if I had anything else to say. The only real reason I'm posting is because it seems like the thread's kinda died for a bit and I'm going to second those points about everyone posting and Flameaxe's silence. I would have thought this would be a time where we'd be seeing more posts. =/

[GodOfWine]

so im officially the first person to be at L-1 in the game. i guess my positions both proved true in my last post. 1: the thread is lifeless 2: the only thing my post galvanized was a newfound collective suspicion of myself.

well obviously i dont want to be lynched and im not accepting defeat like the destructor of a few (literal) nights ago so i hope that many will find my next move noble and as pro-town as a person who is stuck on L-1 can be.

unvote: destructor

Vote: Flameaxe

come on guys! band with me!

[Ripley]

GodOfWine's posts continue to be either scummy or nonsensical and I haven't seen any reason to reconsider my vote. However, I'll add a few thoughts that just occurred to me while I was skimming rhe last few pages again.

I totally agree about Flameaxe: only 1 post with any content, made after he was about to be replaced, and most of it was just repeating stuff already done to death. He only looked at the two people who had attracted most suspicion (destructor and GOW) and somewhat strangely (given that he seemed to find GOW scummy) responded positively to GOW's request for people to be swayed into voting destructor.

I keep getting a feeling of some kind of connection going on between Gaspode and GodOfWine. I said earlier that I was suspicious of Gaspode's advancing the theory that GOW's guilt was, to some degree at any rate, dependent on destructor's. I'm also noticing some some similar posting from these two. Both have used a technique I haven't often seen before, of directly targeting individual players to try and get their votes moved (to destructor). Gaspode approached GOW himself, and GOW targeted AlSleet.

Also, this from GOW, saying he wanted the day over because there was nothing mroe to be gaimed from it:

earlier, i was putting the pressure on the group to make up their minds and get a lynch done sheerly because i felt that day one was totally stagnant.

.. sounds reminiscent of Gaspode:

Honestly, I was bored with the day, and I hadn't found anything better than Destructor--and at that point, it didn't seem too likely that we'd ever get any more information out of the day.

And in neither case does it ring true. Gaspode has since conceded that he was mistaken, while GOW's pushes for the destructor lynch came during a period of extremely busy posting.

One final point about Gaspode:

However, whether I like it or not, it appears that I have a pretty good amount of influence in this town, and I feel a bit more responsible for what happens than usual.

This "whether I like it or not" doesn't quite ring true, considering Gaspode's post 146, where he expresses at length his disgust - yes, he did use that term - at what he perceives as the poor standard of play. He emphasises his own experience, and that many of us are newbies:

At least 75% of the last page of posts have been pure crap in my eyes--I realize a lot of you are newbies, but it's getting kind of frustrating at this point.

He suggests his post to be used as a "checkpoint" in the game; a marker after which he hopes people will change their play. Given all this, and the length and vehemence of the post in which he says it, I find it disingenuous of Gaspode to imply with the "whether I like it or not" that his influential role was anything other than of his own choosing. This isn't such a huge deal, but whenever someone posts something that doesn't ring true I think it's worth pointing out.

Finally: I wasn't entirely convinced by Aceiks' switching his vote from GOW to a L-1 on destructor when it looked like the destructor wagon was unstoppable, and then back to GOW once the tide changed back in that direction.

[Paradoxombie]

hmm, well I haven't posted in a while. I'm trying to make up my mind on GoW. He feels like a good choice but it seems pretty contradictory to me to so easily forgive destructor's past scumminess and yet condemn GoW this quickly.

[GodOfWine]

yeah trust me flameaxe is a much better choice

[PJ.]

I don't like GoW's desperate vote on Flameaxe and claiming that flameaxe is a better choice because he has been lurking. I find FlameAxe lurking less scummy then GoW posting.

[destructor]

Regardless of whether Flameaxe has been lurking or not, GoW's posts are scummy anyway. I don't mean to defend GoW, but it IS irritating that Flameaxe hasn't posted anything to even potentially give us a reason to suspect him, or on the flip-side, give us a reason to trust him. =/

[Gaspode]

I see that not a whole lot has monumentally changed since I left, other than a slight increase in posting, but I suppose there are a few things worth mentioning:

1. Flameaxe definitely needs to step up asap. The other people who haven't posted in 2+ days should weigh in as well (by my count, this includes Alsleet, death_omen, and toomuchpete).

2. It seems to me that GodOfWine's latest posts are at best maintaining the status quo with respect to his scumminess, and most are making him seem even more suspicious in my eyes.

3. If you'll allow me to be a bit vain for a few moments, Ripley made some very interesting points in his last post that I think warrant a good response:

I understand that it is often a bad idea to preemptively base one person's guilt on another's. What I fail to understand is how that creates a connection between myself and GoW. Perhaps I'm just being dense (it is kind of late), but I'd appreciate if you'd explain that logic at some point.

As for the "similar posting habits", that just seems like faulty reasoning to me. I agree that his "I was bored" post was essentially an exact copy of mine, but how does that imply a relationship? What would be the point in copying an affiliate's posting pattern--wouldn't it be counterproductive?

In reference to the "directly targeting individuals", I believe the context was quite different for the two posts in question: GoW's was completely unprovoked, while mine was in direct response to what I considered to be, put very kindly, a completely ridiculous post (Post 168: when he cited himself as a bad example and yet did nothing to change that). Again, I don't really see a very strong connection there, unless it has become common practice to discuss specific, tandem-use, daytime persuasion practices with scum buddies on Night 1 (which, again, I would think is quite foolish).

Also,

Given all this, and the length and vehemence of the post in which he says it, I find it disingenuous of Gaspode to imply with the "whether I like it or not" that his influential role was anything other than of his own choosing. This isn't such a huge deal, but whenever someone posts something that doesn't ring true I think it's worth pointing out.

Clarification: I do not, in fact, like being one of the most influential people in town. The best towns are made up of equally contributing members--not a few vocal people who have taken charge. However, in this game, my frustrations (both warranted and unwarranted) at the time of my "checkpoint" post led me to the conclusion that someone had to step up and "stop the madness", if you will. So I will freely admit that my influential role was originally "of my own choosing"--that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[GodOfWine]

unvote: flameaxe

i admit that was dumb

ive been racking my brain for a way to try and prove myself without making me night 2's victim automatically. it seemed helpful that when destructor was under the gun, he came clean with his thoughts on each player, and the thread did start to move after that so i will try something similar.

flameaxe -- a threat to the town but probably not scum. his infrequent posting puts everyone on edge

destructor - has really done nothing but help after his initial scummy posts that were nothing more than newbie babble

gaspode - implies that he is the "leader" of the town to some degree but has never really led the town in one direction or another. he prefers to speak lengthily about things that everyone is already aware of...like to talk alot, say a little

ripley - as much as he suspects me of being scum, i like his playing style. he only posts when he comes to a conclusion that the town is not already aware of. id say town but its more of a gut instinct

paradoxombie - still confuses the hell out of me

AlSleet - the less and less he posts, the more and more i think hes scum. he kept an entirely arbitrary vote on Panzerjager for the duration of near 200 posts and only switched to bandwagon against me. scum in my book

Panzerjager - kinds of walks in the footsteps of the crowd without making much noise. its difficult to tell if he is deliberately distancing or just afraid of holding a view that is contradictory to that of the majority and drawing suspicion

toomuchpete - has rarely contributed to anything...strane amount of distance from the thread

Aceiks - i dont like his play style, but it would be unwarranted to accuse him of being scum at this point...not enough evidence against him. he does have a habit however of directly attacking certain players instead of posting more collective theories.

death_omen - where is he?

hopefully this is somewhat helpful and it is quite early in the morning so i hope its not too redundant. reconsider!

[TooMuchPete]

The other people who haven't posted in 2+ days should weigh in as well (by my count, this includes Alsleet, death_omen, and toomuchpete).

My opinion has not changed in the past two days. I still think that Destructor is the most scummy player. GodofWine is making some strides to dethrone him, but has a ways to go, IMO.

I'm not really much for posting just for the sake of posting. If I don't have anything to add, I'm not going to waste everyone's time. It's a philosophy I wish more people would take up.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have, but I'm not going to just keep reiterating points I've already made.

[Aceiks]

Number Crunching:

We have 11 alive and need 6 to lynch.
I'll assume flameaxe won't be voting.
death_omen says he's waiting to vote for some "proof"
toomuchpete hasn't placed a vote since unvoting his random
I'll assume the person being lynched won't vote for him(her)self
I'll assume 2 of 3 scum will be on the wagon

And all of the sudden we need every actively voting player to agree on a person to lynch. We really aren't in a "majority" setting anymore. It's more of a unanimous vote is needed.

This may be construed as a push to lynch right now, when really it's a plea for the players not actively voting to get in the game.

[AlSleet]

unvote: flameaxe

i admit that was dumb

ive been racking my brain for a way to try and prove myself without making me night 2's victim automatically. it seemed helpful that when destructor was under the gun, he came clean with his thoughts on each player, and the thread did start to move after that so i will try something similar.

flameaxe -- a threat to the town but probably not scum. his infrequent posting puts everyone on edge

destructor - has really done nothing but help after his initial scummy posts that were nothing more than newbie babble

gaspode - implies that he is the "leader" of the town to some degree but has never really led the town in one direction or another. he prefers to speak lengthily about things that everyone is already aware of...like to talk alot, say a little

ripley - as much as he suspects me of being scum, i like his playing style. he only posts when he comes to a conclusion that the town is not already aware of. id say town but its more of a gut instinct

paradoxombie - still confuses the hell out of me

AlSleet - the less and less he posts, the more and more i think hes scum. he kept an entirely arbitrary vote on Panzerjager for the duration of near 200 posts and only switched to bandwagon against me. scum in my book

Panzerjager - kinds of walks in the footsteps of the crowd without making much noise. its difficult to tell if he is deliberately distancing or just afraid of holding a view that is contradictory to that of the majority and drawing suspicion

toomuchpete - has rarely contributed to anything...strane amount of distance from the thread

Aceiks - i dont like his play style, but it would be unwarranted to accuse him of being scum at this point...not enough evidence against him. he does have a habit however of directly attacking certain players instead of posting more collective theories.

death_omen - where is he?

hopefully this is somewhat helpful and it is quite early in the morning so i hope its not too redundant. reconsider!

Yes, not posting for a couple of days is along the lines of recklessly pushing for a quicklynch.

And my vote on you wasn't bandwagoning. I think I was the second vote on you. Either way I said why I was voting you and I didn't try to discreetly hop a wagon.

So far, my opinion hasn't changed except I don't like how panzerjager got worked up over an obviously not serious post.