Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[blindmewithscience]

I don't appreciate what I interpret as buddying from blindme.

Hah, wouldn't call it "buddying", man. Note that I did call your argument weak in my last main post, and was criticizing Silver's response.


@Wisdom: You seem wholeheartedly convinced in wgeurts' scumminess. I'd say wait until he posts again with content that can help us make a decision. I don't want to "jump on your wagon" until I'm sure that it's not going to break underneath me and have me fall to my death .

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

[Malakittens]

I've only skimmed but I agree with Mala, and trust her ability to read town flail

@Mod V/LA until 23/10

I won't be replacing out, just need to wait for things to calm down a bit (good things)

Pls don't do this. We both know I'm capable of being wrong.

[SilverWolf]

I like how Silver is engaging in conversation with her top suspect who she thinks is scum
but is completely ignoring me.

Thanks for that one.

What do you want to talk about?

I told you my opinion on your case on me. I'll admit it was too harsh so sorry about that. However, most of your responses to what I have to say here is telling me I'm sheeping and not providing original content. I don't feel it is best to engage you right now if you are going to be so close-minded to everything I say. If you are convinced enough that I'm scum that your are going to remove your vote from your top scumread and place it on me, there isn't much more I can do about it.

However, if you have any questions for me or anything you want to discuss, feel free. I'm not ignoring you outright. I'll respond to you.

[Wisdom]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

I don't see where this comes from, do you feel like you'll be lynched? You have like one vote on you.

Also I don't get the "new players cannot be scum". Last I checked everyone has the same odds of drawing scum.

[Malakittens]

Okay, so I was going to say I didn't like BMWS, but his last set of posts I actually like.
Dino is town. Also me posting one liners isn't really a town tell btw. I do it as scum a lot as well as town.
Wisdom, I'm not actually getting a read one way or another. There was a few posts that gave me niggles. The whole baiting BWMS' vote felt town, but I'm not exactly sure.
N_M's sheeping of my read on Wge, felt off, but nothing worrisome atm.
VDA I can see being potentially scum, but idk.
I really like Finnlaw for town.

I still like my vote on Acryon, it's really gut. I'm trying to make sure I'm not in a tunnel, but i mgiht be. :\

[Wisdom]

And no, your reasoning is not solid at all, it's a rehash of everything that has been said already: "omg wgeurts unvoting is so normal, he was asked to do it" when it's not and I have said why already.

[SilverWolf]

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

There may be a split here, but if it comes down to it, I would switch to wgeurts to avoid a NL situation on D1. I just don't feel the need to vote for him right now.

And I like this post. It seems town trying to figure things out.

[Wisdom]

From my perspective, it looked like a townie who was honestly frustrated and wanted the other players to closely observe his wagon when he flips town. He didn't want his death to be in vain. I think posts like this, this, and this gave him good advice and I think he realized that, which in turn gave him hope.

And the first thing he did after all this frustration was "okay, unvote as requested. Nothing's wrong, we're going back to scumhunting. x and y are scum, this is why."
Trust me, this is not how newbtowns deal with frustration. They have their pride to consider, they even think that they'll look more scummy if they back down now that they went this far. It's not making any sense for a newbtown to comeback so easily. I know you probably can't understand me because you lack experience with newbtowns, but I replace into newbies all the time and see such behaviors.

And lol with the rehashed reasoning. If multiple people notice similar scummy things about you, then that can't be helped. My reasons for suspecting you are legit (I will admit that wgeurts' good points added onto it as well.).

Assume I am town for a second. How do you think your and SW's votes look, considering they consist of the same reasoning that has already been explained and also considering their timing?

I'm more leaning scum on SW than I am on you, but it's definitely one of you.

[Wisdom]

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

Was there a reason to this recap?

[Wisdom]

Pls don't do this. We both know I'm capable of being wrong.

You seemed pretty confident you were right about him being newbtown last time you posted, is that not the case anymore?

[SilverWolf]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

I don't see where this comes from, do you feel like you'll be lynched? You have like one vote on you.

Also I don't get the "new players cannot be scum". Last I checked everyone has the same odds of drawing scum.

Sure new players can be scum and no I don't feel like I'm going to be lynched yet. I'm not understanding the scum case you and mathdino are working up to on me tbh. I feel like it is very superficial. I am giving my opinions and you two are jumping on me for it and again, for reasons that are not clear to me. It feels like a set-up.

[Wisdom]

Then why'd you say that we should leave the new players alone and "focus on the real scum"? That implies that you believe the new players can't be scum.

Your opinions constantly feel as if you're echoing the consensus there is around, there is little if any original reasoning. That's why you're being attacked for them.

[SilverWolf]

And no, your reasoning is not solid at all, it's a rehash of everything that has been said already: "omg wgeurts unvoting is so normal, he was asked to do it" when it's not and I have said why already.

Just because you feel the reasons have already been rehashed does not mean they are not accurate. I'll recap it for you.

Here's where I laid out my case. 301, 304, 305, 308.

Just because more than one person has pointed it out, does not mean it is false or bad reasoning.

[Malakittens]

Pls don't do this. We both know I'm capable of being wrong.

You seemed pretty confident you were right about him being newbtown last time you posted, is that not the case anymore?

I just don't like the buddying by N_M

[Wisdom]

That didn't answer my question. Talk to me about how he's newbtown and reacted like he did. You do know one thing or two about emotion after all.

[SilverWolf]

Then why'd you say that we should leave the new players alone and "focus on the real scum"? That implies that you believe the new players can't be scum.

Your opinions constantly feel as if you're echoing the consensus there is around, there is little if any original reasoning. That's why you're being attacked for them.

Because I'm new and know I'm town, I have a town-lean on Newbie and wgeurts who are new. I could be wrong about them but that's just the way I feel atm.

There's not much I can do about the fact that someone else has already given a similar opinion to me on something. I've already explained this. It doesn't make if false or wrong.

[Newbie]

And the first thing he did after all this frustration was "okay, unvote as requested. Nothing's wrong, we're going back to scumhunting. x and y are scum, this is why."
Trust me, this is not how newbtowns deal with frustration. They have their pride to consider, they even think that they'll look more scummy if they back down now that they went this far. It's not making any sense for a newbtown to comeback so easily. I know you probably can't understand me because you lack experience with newbtowns, but I replace into newbies all the time and see such behaviors.

I understand that you have more experience on this, but I quite literally think he saw that unvoting and giving actual, concrete reads would be really helpful to town. He

could

be faking it. Idk. We're just going to have to disagree on this.

Assume I am town for a second. How do you think your and SW's votes look, considering they consist of the same reasoning that has already been explained and also considering their timing?

I'm more leaning scum on SW than I am on you, but it's definitely one of you.

Multiple people seeing the same reasons that someone seems scummy can't be helped. I mean, are we supposed to pull other reasons out of thin air just so they don't coincide?

[Wisdom]

I understand your view, but my point is that it's in there that scum will hide. Using the reasoning the majority seems to have so they can blend in.

[Mathdino]

What do you want to talk about?

I told you my opinion on your case on me. I'll admit it was too harsh so sorry about that. However, most of your responses to what I have to say here is telling me I'm sheeping and not providing original content. I don't feel it is best to engage you right now if you are going to be so close-minded to everything I say. If you are convinced enough that I'm scum that your are going to remove your vote from your top scumread and place it on me, there isn't much more I can do about it.

However, if you have any questions for me or anything you want to discuss, feel free. I'm not ignoring you outright. I'll respond to you.

In all fairness, no one's posted a defence of you, so defending yourself would in fact be original content, haha.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?
Do you think I'm scum?
I'd like you to flesh out your case on Wisdom, because as it is, it completely relies on wgeurts being town and Wisdom's votepost. Contrary to your belief, I can be swayed on this issue.
Who would you want to lynch if not Wisdom? If your answer to the 2nd question is 'yes', who if not me/Wisdom?
Any other reads? I really don't want this town to turn into the Wisdom and Wgeurts Show; it lets people pretty much cruise by with minimal effort and just pick a side.

Dammit, I got distracted. All of the above was written as of #330. Haven't read past, will respond to that in a sec.

[Newbie]

I understand what you're saying as well, and I have seen scum do that.

[Mathdino]

Actually none of my thoughts have changed aft reading the last 10 posts. Still think Newbie and Wisdom are town.

Mala, I wasn't saying you're town because you're posting one-liners, I'm saying I got a townread from your one-line posts. Lil different.

Confession: I'm a little disappointed most people ignored my case on Silver, lol. I changed my vote because she's my top suspect but I'd be willing to switch back to wgeurts if necessary. I think I'd be willing to vote Wisdom solely to prevent a NL because the flip is useful, but that's not happening until the last 12 hours of the day, which I doubt we'll get to.

[Wisdom]

Ill selfvote over a NL, so don't worry about that.

[SilverWolf]

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself. You are accusing me of not having much of a case on Wisdom but your case on me was much weaker. I feel like both yourself and Wisdom are picking at anyone you think is going to be an easy target which makes me look at both of you as scum looking for the easy mislynch.

Do you think I'm scum?

I had a town-lean on you until your case on me and your somewhat aggressive attitude towards the "low-hanging fruit" of both myself and wgeurts. I'm not even understanding why you would scumread both of us but townread newbie when she's also been accused of going with the flow or however you want to word it. It is like the two of you (Wisdom and yourself) are sharks smelling blood in the water because I'm not defending myself to your liking or don't post in a way you approve of or would do yourself and you won't let up. It gets tiring and I'm about ready to be done with it after this post.

I'd like you to flesh out your case on Wisdom, because as it is, it completely relies on wgeurts being town and Wisdom's votepost. Contrary to your belief, I can be swayed on this issue.

I'm not sure what you expect outside of all the posts I gave to Wisdom above. The only scumhunting I see from him is being convinced wgeurts is scum and now getting suspicious of me. He's asked questions that could come from either alignment. And is somewhat aggressively tunneling wgeurts and to a lesser extent myself. I'm not seeing a lot of town motivation behind very many of his posts. The vote he placed came immediately after wgeurts accused him of pushing his wagon from the sidelines and appeared opportunistic as there was several already on the wgeurts wagon and he jumped on. It looks to me like scum going for the easy mislynch like I've said. Frankly, I don't see the point either one of you is making on me as scum. It simply makes no sense. Sheeping? Like I've said over and over, I can not help the fact that other people have similar opinions to me. It seems completely unreasonable to hold that against me. It makes you both look pretty aggressive because I'm not as experienced at the game and frankly, it's irritating. I've already told Wisdom how I feel about being tunnelled when I am town. I don't like it.

Who would you want to lynch if not Wisdom? If your answer to the 2nd question is 'yes', who if not me/Wisdom?

Any other reads? I really don't want this town to turn into the Wisdom and Wgeurts Show; it lets people pretty much cruise by with minimal effort and just pick a side.

I'll have to answer this later when I have more time to ISO players, flesh out a reads list and post it. It's getting late now. But that will be coming. I'll probably take a day or so because I'm just getting over an illness and this took a lot out of me. I'm seriously questioning even continuing with this game as I don't like spending the majority of my time on defense over accusations that make no sense and that I can't seem to defend myself from because you two aren't going to like anything I say.

That takes all the fun out of the game for me and I can relate even more to what wgeurts was feeling.

[Mathdino]

FoS: SilverWolf

. Someone let me know if I'm crazy on this by the way, that took a long time to do. Also open to defence on Silver's part, but honestly, more contribution from her will do more than responding to this post.

I see you skimmed the part I told you not to, haha. I had no questions because I didn't want to spoonfeed you things to say; given that my case was based off of lack of original content on your part, asking you "What do you think of X? What do you think of Y?" would kind of undermine whatever your thoughts were, since I prompted them.
My case on you showed how literally every one of your posts came together to support a certain image of you. I can see how it wouldn't be persuasive or conducive to reading since it was long as hell (I still have a bit of walling left in me), but I'd say it's far from weak.

In defence of myself, there's a fine line between "looking for an easy mislynch" and "looking for the scummiest person". In my opinion, you are the scummiest person. People who are able to defend their actions are not as scummy. wgeurts's defending himself only created more contradictions and resulted in the "LET'S HAVE MASONS CLAIM" BS. You didn't defend yourself at all, which is why I voted you. I admit, some people have different playstyles from me. I wouldn't play anything like Mala's been playing, and I think blindme's last couple posts are actually more IIoA than not, but I wouldn't call either of them scummy for it. Hell, the way you were posting isn't that far from how I post. The difference is in the content.

I made that post before those posts, I should've deleted that question, sorry. But look, Silver, I've literally finished 5 games of mafia ever (along with 1 abandoned). 4, including the abandoned one, ended for me after D1. I think I've played a grand total of 10 days of mafia. I'm not sure if you've done less, but I don't think we need to bring experience level into this. I'm not attacking you because you're inexperienced, I'm attacking you because I see you at the moment as noobscum. It is, of course, entirely possible that you're being scummy BECAUSE you're inexperienced, but I can't just give you a free pass for being new.

I would hope you'd be able to leave the game behind in your personal life/feelings. Being attacked is part of the game, not just attacking others. And I do hope you feel better.

Since Silver's back in 2nd place (I don't want to say why right now because again I don't really want to tell people how not to be scummy), and because her reads are presumably coming later, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now and
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts.

[reinoe]

By the way, something from bizarroworld jumped into my computer and ate my spreadsheet. It escaped into the abyss before I could catch it!!! VOTECOUNT MAY NOT BE COMPLETED UNTIL TOMORROW!!!!