The IC and SE System

[Espeonage]

What i've seen happen on other sites (not mafia, but complicated board games and such) is that they assign an experienced player to each newbie game. That person acts more like a consultant and analyst. They are available to help with theory and definition questions and post game they do an in depth analysis of everyone's play and where they could have gone better and what they missed and such.

In newbies I've played in, there seems to be a very heavy focus among newbie players of a burden of proficiency. Some newbies also rely on experienced players to carry the game for them. I think that having someone that is easily PM-able and is tracking progress in the game is potentially a good idea and maybe better than having them occupy an in game slot. This person would then be able to perform all the functions of an IC without actually being a part of the game. Newbies could ask questions in thread or PM them if they prefer and the mentor would have to keep close track of the game.

[N]

Nobody would want that job.

[fferyllt]

Nobody would want that job.

I wonder if that's true. I don't really enjoy playing as an IC, but I've enjoyed coach-like consulting both as a player and as a coach on other sites. I doubt I'm alone in that preference.

The sheer number of newbie games in progress all at once might mean that there wouldn't be enough interested coaches to go around, though.

[Majiffy]

Name of the game should be Moderation Confrontation.

[Espeonage]

Nobody would want that job.

I'd rather do it than IC.

[fferyllt]

Nobody would want that job.

I'd rather do it than IC.

[BROseidon]

Nobody would want that job.

I'd rather do it than IC.

.

[xRECKONERx]

I don't think that would be a super popular position though.

[Espeonage]

You don't need heaps though. I think it would be less of a sign up for each game thing and rather you gather a wide-ish team of trusted players and they get games in turn in a cycle.

Just work out average length of game and how often a game starts, do a shoutout people sign up. You pick from them and then if people can't devote enough time to be on the team then let people sign up for a one time tutoring role after being cleared by the committee.

There's a little bit of data analysis to set it up, and then go for it.

[prawneater]

I like the idea of abolishing ICs and delegating their theory duties to the mod.

I think the newbie queue should prioritize getting newbs into a game fast. Ideally, a 2 day turnover from /in to game setup.

The IC queue slows down this turnover. We should just have SEs and newbs. Min 3 SEs and 6 newbies. I don't think game quality would suffer at all.

[Zachrulez]

Here's my thing: I think playing in a normal game gets you the same thing playing in a newbie game does.... except, the newbie game is limited in its setup variation, leading to long term "optimal strategies". "Okay, we have a ____, which means ____ can't be in the setup!" Why should that be a thing in the newbie queue?

I know that's not what this thread is for, but at least the first step to correcting that would be to get rid of outdated things like IC/SE. I can understand a newbie's frustration when they show up on the site, having played mafia elsewhere, and are expected to join a queue called the "Newbie Queue" (which insinuates lack of knowledge) and play a "newbie role" (which puts them in an inferior standing to other players) and play a "newbie setup" (which has limited options and low variance).

We really should acknowledge the fact that most people who come here actually have played mafia before and that the newbie queue is more to get people new to the site acclimated to our style of games more so than actually teaching them how to play mafia. It's actually quite rare that an IC needs to actually 'teach' beyond just playing the game with the newbies. I'm sure half of what intimidates people about ICing is that we've put it on such a pedastol that people are afraid of 'doing it wrong.' As far as I'm concerned as long as an IC doesn't fly off the rails with self voting, melting down and flipping out on the players, personal attacks, or chronically flaking, than they are fine to IC.

Maybe we could change the description of the newbie queue to NOT assume the newbies are new to mafia?

I like the idea of abolishing ICs and delegating their theory duties to the mod.

I think the newbie queue should prioritize getting newbs into a game fast. Ideally, a 2 day turnover from /in to game setup.

The IC queue slows down this turnover. We should just have SEs and newbs. Min 3 SEs and 6 newbies. I don't think game quality would suffer at all.

That would be disastrous because the mod could relay game advice that is damaging to either faction during play and that threatens to compromise their neutrality.

[Psyche]

And the same problem doesn't arise for ICs?

[zoraster]

Just don't call SE's anything. Require an IC and at least 6 newbies in each game, the rest that can be filled by anyone, including newbies.

[fferyllt]

And the same problem doesn't arise for ICs?

I think an IC's advice is automatically considered with at least a small grain of salt because even though they're bound to a code of conduct, all the town players know the IC isn't necessarily on their team. A mod would be considered neutral, and in fact should be neutral. The way a question is asked as well as the question itself could put a mod in a tough spot deciding how to answer a theory question, though.

[Zachrulez]

See I'm not worried about an IC giving 'bad' advice in game because they can explain why it was bad and what the town really should have done at the end of the game if they were scum.

[tn5421]

If you're exploring the idea of the mod filling a neutral teaching role, why not have a non-player observer fill that role?

I've also thrown that idea around before. I think the main issue is that it's hard to have a neutral party fill that role.

Why don't we just have the IC be a person that doesn't actually play in the game, but who's sole purpose is to teach others how to play the game? That removes most of the bias that would normally creep in because of their alignment, and would ensure that there is always someone on hand to answer questions. Most of the time, newbie scums will kill off the IC first, meaning that they aren't available to help anyone further.

[Muffin]

I'd much prefer a system by which we had dedicated newbie versus non-newbie slots, and had the moderators of newbie games take on the burden of information/authority.

+1

Also change the damn setup, matrix6 is boring.

[quadz08]

See I'm not worried about an IC giving 'bad' advice in game because they can explain why it was bad and what the town really should have done at the end of the game if they were scum.

Telling ICs to be

bad at ICing

for the purpose of winning the game is kind of a shitty thing to do, though. I think ICs by-and-large do a good job of separating 'being an IC' vs 'being a player,' but it would just be better, I think, if the teaching party were not a player. (You also don't run into the issue of "the IC is scum if they live past N2 or so" because they're the obvious nightkill target 97% of the time.)

[xRECKONERx]

Newbie 1567: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1566: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1564: Town IC endgamed.
Newbie 1562: Mafia IC lynched in LYLO.
Newbie 1561: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1560: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1559: Town IC endgamed.
Newbie 1558: Town IC endgamed.
Newbie 1557: Town IC survived and won.
Newbie 1556: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1555: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1554: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1553: Mafia IC survived and won.
Newbie 1551: Town IC killed N1.
Newbie 1550: Mafia IC lynched D3.
Newbie 1549: Town IC survived and won.
Newbie 1548: Mafia IC lynched D4.
Newbie 1547: Mafia IC lynched D2.
newbie 1545: Town IC survived and won.
Newbie 1544: Town IC killed N1.

Just looking at the past 20 games...
The IC was town 15 times.
The IC was killed N1 9/15 times.

It's not as 97%-ish as I thought it was, but still -- that's a big trend that you can't ignore that really lends itself to wondering if ICs are doing more harm than good to newbies.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

1) Do you think the current IC and SE system is working?

Yes.. I think. I'm not sure what you mean by "working". I think it's vital to have a few "vets" in each newbie game who have the understanding that they will be representative of the expectations of players and there to assist newbies get acclimated.

2) Are there any changes to the structure of the SE/IC system you think we should make?

There should be penalties for ICs/SEs who flake out on games or require multiple prods. The ICs and SEs are not just there to teach, they are there to show new players how to behave. They set an example, and flaking out of a game is not a good example. Treating others poorly is not a good example. Prod dodging is not a good example. Replacing out for non-emergency reasons is not a good example. Yet they can do all these things and obtain credit for the game as an SE? No.

3) Should the requirements for being an SE and/or IC be more relaxed or more stringent--either quantitatively or qualitatively? (The former is the number of games played, and the latter the subjective skill level of the IC, which is something I often have to make judgement calls on and which I HATE HATE HATE doing.)

More stringent for both. A player who has played two newbies, one mini, and then 2 newbies as an SE is eligible to be an IC. I do not think this is enough, and I think it's misleading to newbies.

A player who has only played 2 newbies and a micro should not really be eligible to be an SE either. That's kind of silly. They are still newbies! They have no idea how to answer questions about theory or setup spec or strategy. I'm sorry, they just don't.

However.... I totally realize that enforcing more stringent requirements for these positions severely narrows the pool for placement into new games, so I really don't have a solution for this, other than to yell at people who have been around a while and never play newbies to go play some damn newbies.

p-edt: someone once called me a dumbass for suggesting the IC was more likely to be killed N1.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I would also like newbies to be restricted to the newbie queue for their first two games, but this is my own frustration with seeing newbies replace into 100-page large games and flounder around and do nothing.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Also change the damn setup, matrix6 is boring.

Yeah and this. I really don't like it.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Just don't call SE's anything. Require an IC and at least 6 newbies in each game, the rest that can be filled by anyone, including newbies.

I like this, which would mean people who have been around forever but are somehow not "eligible" to be ICs can actually IC and be the singular point of contact for game questions.

Or something like this, with 2 ICs and no SEs.

ABOLISH SEs.

[GuyInFreezer]

A player who has only played 2 newbies and a micro should not really be eligible to be an SE either.

But SE just means "experienced", not "better". It's like you leveling up in mobile game for finishing a tutorial. You get the hang of the game but you still might not know how to play the game well.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Eh.