New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

[Marquis]

it's common enough on the site and not too crazy such that if players are informed of it during signups it should be considered acceptable

[Marquis]

Changes to the day/night cycle (eg Nightless or Night-Start) are allowed, as long as it is announced beforehand.

[Wake1]

Woah.

Wait.

Nightless is now allowed in Mini Normals if announced beforehand?

Ugh. This change happened just a little while after trying to mod a Mountainous Nightless game that's Normal/balanced. 9:4.

[Wake1]

So a Nightless Large Normal game is possible now?

As long as it is balanced, and with Normal-ish PRs?

[Wake1]

Vengeball Large Normal Nightless.

13:4:4.

If lynched, that particular Scum can kill a player (Vengeful?).

Something like Vengeful that'd work in this Setup.

Thought just crossed my mind, but needs lots of work.

[Wake1]

Many other explicitly Normal roles have been formally standardised.[/b]

May we please have a list?

I think Nightless being allowed is great.

These added options and changes really makes me want to keep modding games here. Not to mention play in them when able.

[GreyICE]

There's a link to the wiki in the OP

[Cheery Dog]

A role that learns if a person can do something at night = Vanilla Cop

This is not the entire case, vanilla cops also pick up things like bulletproofs and day-active abilities.

[GreyICE]

A role that learns if a person can do something at night = Vanilla Cop

This is not the entire case, vanilla cops also pick up things like bulletproofs and day-active abilities.

Yes, we already covered that. The number of roles is so small (and some of them are things you'd never put in a game with a Vanilla cop anyway, like miller/godfather) that it's really not worth having an extra role.

I mean we could make:
a role that found out who a person targeted at night
a role that found out who a person targeted if their action successfully affected the target

These are two distinct roles, kind of. There'd be no point in having both in the normal rules.

[vonflare]

why the heck did you take hider off the whitelist I mean come on

Seriously, what was the reason?

[mastin2]

You'll get a different answer from each member, reflecting their different stances on the role.

In short, lack of consensus on what the role should be.

[GreyICE]

It has enough weird interactions that I think it makes a good non-normal role.

It's a commuter-weak cop hybrid who dies if their target is killed, that's like three roles in one. It's also not straightforward like the doctor-roleblocker hybrid.

[mastin2]

^To demonstrate, the above was one interpretation, the interpretation I favored was a commuter that dies if their target is killed, without the dies-if-hiding-behind-scum bit that many hiders have since we have approved as a Normal modifier 'weak' so it doesn't need to be built into the role itself.

Soyeah, no consensus was reached.

[quadz08]

it's beyond the 'no consensus' bit - GreyICE's point is probably closer to the reason we didn't just pick a majority interpretation and keep it normal. Both reasons played into it, though.

[AngryPidgeon]

I can't remember if I opted for hiders being allowed or not, but I don't really have any qualms about them being gone.

Its such a weird role compared to everything else in normals.

I like Hiders, they are one of my favorite roles to use as a mod and ARE my favorite role as a player.

[Wake1]

Never liked the Hiders. Do like the Friendly Neighbor idea a lot.

[Wake1]

'Loud' would be a neat, Normalized modifier.

[Wake1]

Got some questions regarding these roles, and figured I'd ask them at the same time.

01)

Can the Friendly Neighbor's action be roleblocked?

02)

Also, what would the standardized sentence the FN gives look like?

03)

Instead of giving a group of Neighbors Daytalk, can one of those Neighbors (Town or Scum), be an Encryptor?

04)

On the Gunsmith wiki page, it says that it gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers.

Would like to know if there are any other Normalized PRs that can be found guilty by Gunsmith.

. Also, what would the guilty result/sentence be that is given to the Gunsmith? ---> "Your target owns a gun." Would that be appropriate?

05)

If a Vanilla Cop investigates a Vanilla Townie with a modifier, what happens? Vanilla Townies, Mafia Goons, and Serial Killers with no additional powers return a "Vanilla" result, while all other roles return "not Vanilla". There's no mention of modifiers on that Wiki page, but I'm hesitant to assume that 'modifier' = 'power.' What further makes me unsure is how in the 'Use and Power' section it says that it can help mafia narrow down the pool of town power roles, which sounds like this helps decide who isn't a power role, and I do know that Power Role =/= modifier. Please clear this up for me.

06)

For 'Jack-of-all-Trades,' as long all of its one-shot component abilities are Normal, the role is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. So I could make one JOAT with '1-Shot Motion Detector' and '1-Shot Rolestopper;' and then in the same game make a second JOAT with '1-Shot Voyuer,' '1-Shot Rolestopper,' and '1-Shot Commuter'... and also have that second JOAT a Miller and a Neighbor? Is it possible and Normal? That'd be neat. Since It is up to a moderator's discretion whether a JOAT will flip with all their abilities shown or not, and needs to be decided during review, how would we go about doing this?




That's what crossed my mind for now. If you guys could straighten these questions out for me, that'd be both enlightening and appreciated.

[AngryPidgeon]

1) Yes FN's can be roleblocked

2) We don't have a standard but something like "You learned that Player-X is aligned with the Town and is a Friendly Neighbor"

3) Encryptor is only normal for mafia although I suppose a town encryptor could work as a non-normal allowed role. Mafia Encryptors only affect mafia chat.

4) No, the whole point of that list is to be 100% complete. Yes, that'd be appropriate.

5) Hmmm, that is a question that I'm not entirely sure on, but I would tend to think that having a modifier means you are NOT vanilla.

6) Yes, I think you can do that. I don't think you can have a Miller JoaT though since a miller qualifies as a role and not a modifier (at least in a normal sense, in non-normal games you can do whatever you want with it). You can have every role in the game be a JoaT with arbitrary abilities though. (Not that we'd approve that for balance if you did)

[quadz08]

Agreed with AP's 1-4

5) If you've got a modifier but are otherwise vanilla (for example, Bulletproof Townie) a rolecop would see your modifier, and a vanilla cop would return 'not vanilla.'

6) You could conceivably design a game with multiple JOATs with different abilities, but keep in mind that merely complying with all the listed rules does not

necessarily

mean that your game will be considered normal - for example, a game with 7 doctors in it (even if it's balanced) will not pass a normalcy review.

[Wake1]

1) Yes FN's can be roleblocked

2) We don't have a standard but something like "You learned that Player-X is aligned with the Town and is a Friendly Neighbor"

3) Encryptor is only normal for mafia although I suppose a town encryptor could work as a non-normal allowed role. Mafia Encryptors only affect mafia chat.

4) No, the whole point of that list is to be 100% complete. Yes, that'd be appropriate.

5) Hmmm, that is a question that I'm not entirely sure on, but I would tend to think that having a modifier means you are NOT vanilla.

6) Yes, I think you can do that. I don't think you can have a Miller JoaT though since a miller qualifies as a role and not a modifier (at least in a normal sense, in non-normal games you can do whatever you want with it). You can have every role in the game be a JoaT with arbitrary abilities though. (Not that we'd approve that for balance if you did)

Agreed with AP's 1-4

5) If you've got a modifier but are otherwise vanilla (for example, Bulletproof Townie) a rolecop would see your modifier, and a vanilla cop would return 'not vanilla.'

6) You could conceivably design a game with multiple JOATs with different abilities, but keep in mind that merely complying with all the listed rules does not

necessarily

mean that your game will be considered normal - for example, a game with 7 doctors in it (even if it's balanced) will not pass a normalcy review.

Alrighty.

The

Friendly Neighbor

can be roleblocked. If we could get an exact standard for the

FN

's action, that would be good. May we please create one? Ah, I didn't know that

Encryptor

was Normal only for Mafia. Scratch that idea. So the

Gunsmith

's targets are all listed, and the response provided is appropriate—could we make that the Normal standard? It should be utilized more for subtler info-gathering. Could the

Role Cop

and

Vanilla Cop

please be edited to include modifiers as well? Please? Quad, do you think 2-3 modified JOATS (with no more than four 1-Shot abilities) would be fine/Normal in a 21-player Large Normal? I wouldn't want any of them to have killing abilities, either. The Wiki also says JOATs help with balancing out games, which is a plus.

Speaking of killing abilities, we should have Vanilla and Role Vigilantes Normalized. Seems like a decent variation that would fit in, perhaps?

[The Bulge]

Hiders are one of my favourite roles on the entire site, but I always did find it weird that they were Normal. They were standardized afaik, but very complicated and nothing like any other Normal roles.

[vonflare]

Need more desperado.

[N]

I see no need for standardised results pms, just like I see no need for standardised role pms. I ask new mods to supply them before review, and they need to be agreed to by reviewers before a game can begin signups.

[Wake1]

Are Day abilities considered Normal? Like an Odd-Day Vanilla Cop?