Open 601: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[wgeurts]

Anyway.
Everyone should claim Cop or Doc. Then once everyone has claimed we'll do what Mathdino said.
However I suggest doc's always claim the day before the night they activate.
Then if a doc has claimed on the night a cop can target, then that cop should claim and draw the target.
If the cop dies we know the doc was lying.
Huzza

[Netherspite]

Vote Count 1.1

kyndy101 (2)

- Metalcyanide, Mathdino

Aneninen (1)

- wgeurts

you have any ideas (2)

- kyndy101, pistachi0n

pistachi0n (1)

- Reubus Swagrid

Soviet Crocolisk (1)

- you have any ideas

Mathdino (2)

- insanity018, MarioManiac4

insanity018 (1)

- Aneninen

Not Voting:

Soft-spoken, Marcrell, Soviet Crocolisk

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2015-06-29 02:00:00).

[insanity018]

Ah you meant kyndy's second post haha. I was getting confused as to why her RVS joke was different to any other username/avatar joke. Hmm, I sortof see what you mean. What I am a bit uncomfortable about with kyndy is the way she makes herself appear non-confrontational. ie ':P' in first post and 'jk' in the second.

I agree that cop/doc claim needs to happen at some stage. But I'm not sure when it would be best. The advantage of doing it today is probably that scum would be unlikely to have spent much time planning what they are going to claim yet.

I definitely disagree with people claiming the day before they are supposed to activate. I think that would make it easier for scum to predict who may or may not be protected. (The last time I played Diffusion, the scum team lost partially because they were paranoid of doc protects and thus made some less-optimal night kill decisions.)

3. Roles claim after they've been used. Obvious reasons, allows docs to protect better targets.

Only for cop results I think. Doctors shouldn't claim unless they protected somebody on a night where there was no successful kill.

[Mathdino]

1. Claims make NO ONE an IC. Scum can no kill, scum can lie, don't let anyone be confirmed through claim.

2. Not claiming unless everyone is either on board or enough people are on board to force the dissenters to go with it.

I will claim not night 1 though. You?

Edit: @wgeurts

[insanity018]

I've also been wondering what's stopping us from all claiming, we can build up a tonne of obv-towns.
Like, if a Day 1 doctor claims doc and ask for a day 1 cop. Then the doc will die whatever that night, but that's not a huge loss as they'd be VT for the rest of the game anyway.
Plus the scum are forced to kill the doc otherwise they basically let an IC alive.

Let's say you claim Night 1 Doc.

Scumteam can try to figure out who you are likely to protect and therefore consider killing someone else.
You're still alive and not an IC.

What is the advantage?

[insanity018]

Seriously, let's not claim nights.

[Mathdino]

You raise a good point about the night claims but we could always semi solve it by having docs do the old flip a coin to save the claimed cop or save someone of your choice.

I definitely think d1 is the best time to mass claim, and ideally first 8 pages so scum is definitely not organised.

After thinking about how long it'd take to organise this I'vr changed mind on not claiming yet.

I be cop.

@mod: do scum have day talk?

Edit: K now I totally agree with insanity, ty for considering that.

[insanity018]

I'm fairly sure scum don't have day talk.

Okay, you can be town for now, Mathdino.

I'm finding the claims that wgeurts wants to draw out when there is no causing an IC or anything quite fishy.

VOTE: wgeurts

[Mathdino]

After careful 5 minute long reconsideration, I'm not even really sure about trusting docs who come out with a protection.

Day 1

Scum 1: Hey guys I'm N1 doc!
Scum 2: Hey I'm N1 cop!

Night 2

Scum 1: Let's no kill.

Day 2

Scum 1: Hey guys I saved Scum 2!
Scum 2: Hey guys Scum 3 is town!
Scum 3: Awesome, I'm N2 cop!

My priority is to preserve the cops long enough to get investigations. My 2nd priority is to get people to not die at night. I honestly think that the amount of information that we can get if everything goes well outweighs slowing down the usual time frame of deaths (and we'll probably get at best one save all game). Docs should exist to scare mafia away from killing the cops.

Edit: When I played Stack The Deck with him he blatantly rolefished under the guise of shitty setup spec. The problem here is determining how genuine his ideas actually are, and whether he's changed since then. I find it kinda hard to believe he'd use the exact same tactic twice after getting lynched for it (iirc? correct me if wrong)...

Who else here has played with wgeurts?

[insanity018]

I think the best way to ensure survival of cops/people in general is to have ambiguity about how many and who the docs are in a given night. As I have said, this contributed to scum losing due to paranoia causing bad night kill decisions. (Open 559)

Similar to your scenario: Day 1
Scum 1 claims N1 doc
Player X claims N1 cop....

This cop is probably going to die...

^This is effectively a situation that follows what wgeurts suggested in post 26.

I've played one game with wgeurts and modded one. wgeurts was town in both and I can't remember him doing any rolefishing or making odd suggestions.

[Netherspite]

@mod: do scum have day talk?

No, scum does not have daytalk.

[you have any ideas]

Also I had all these setup ideas when I signed up but then I forgot that this was that setup because the game took so long to start. Aight so

1. Massclaim role but not night. Idea is that even though scum know the distribution of roles, no matter what the distribution will be 4-6, 5-5, or 6-4. And due to the Pigeonhole Principle (OMG ACTUALLY GETTING TO USE MATH IN MAFIA) if everyone claims, we either have 7 or more cops or 7 or more docs, and the larger group MUST have scum. If scum are shit at claiming then we might have 8 cops/docs.

Thoughts everyone?

not averse to this idea

I'll give you a clue first though: my role has a 'c' in it! (oh no I think I just gave it away oops)

2. Cops claim the day before they can investigate.

Which would mean N1 cops would claim today.

Draws the doc protection when necessary, leaves less claim room for scum later on.

alright doesn't seem like too bad an idea

3. Roles claim after they've been used. Obvious reasons, allows docs to protect better targets.

mate you have all the good ideas

very much liking you

[you have any ideas]

You raise a good point about the night claims but we could always semi solve it by having docs do the old flip a coin to save the claimed cop or save someone of your choice.

I definitely think d1 is the best time to mass claim, and ideally first 8 pages so scum is definitely not organised.

After thinking about how long it'd take to organise this I'vr changed mind on not claiming yet.

I be cop.

pass popcorn to someone who isn't here yet

that would be fun

another clue about my role bc I'm the nice half: my role has an 'o' in it! (ahh you'll definitely get it now)

[you have any ideas]

What I am a bit uncomfortable about with kyndy is the way she makes herself appear non-confrontational. ie ':P' in first post and 'jk' in the second.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
not a scumtell in my experience
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree that cop/doc claim needs to happen at some stage. But I'm not sure when it would be best. The advantage of doing it today is probably that scum would be unlikely to have spent much time planning what they are going to claim yet.

I definitely disagree with people claiming the day before they are supposed to activate. I think that would make it easier for scum to predict who may or may not be protected. (The last time I played Diffusion, the scum team lost partially because they were paranoid of doc protects and thus made some less-optimal night kill decisions.)

3. Roles claim after they've been used. Obvious reasons, allows docs to protect better targets.

Only for cop results I think. Doctors shouldn't claim unless they protected somebody on a night where there was no successful kill.

otherwise this all looks pretty good

[wgeurts]

I'm a night 1 doc

Discuss.
Also IC wasn't the right term, "more likely than otherwise town" would have been better.

[Mathdino]

Popcorn: wgeurts

Lack of daytalk is great, no synchronisation or planning and we can analyse order of claims for scum gambits.

Edit: DAMMIT MAN. Eh whatever you go next.

I really hope you didn't come up with the scenario I described as scum and basically planned this to happen. Gotta ask though, did you come up with the doc claim idea before or after I posted?

[Mathdino]

Forgot to post this:

If we standardise having docs claim before the night they activate, 2 problems:
1. What if no one claims doc? gg scum, just shoot the cop.
2. What if scum knows there are 4 docs and 2 claim N1 and 2 claim N2? gg scum, shoot all the cops.

[insanity018]

@You have any ideas, is everything 'pretty good' or 'not bad' to you?

Really people. DO NOT claim which night you will be acting on.

@wgeurts, explain how you hypothetically not dying tonight would make you more likely town than not.

p-edit: Precisely! That is why nights should NOT be claimed. Maybe later on when there's less people remaining and some conftowns but DEFINITELY not today.

[wgeurts]

It wouldn't, however if a cop claims now at least his result is secured or if he dies I get lynched as conf-scum the next day.

[Mathdino]

Go popcorn someone.

My only thought on night claiming is that cops should claim ONLY the day before they investigate. If any N2 cops claim now, they will get insta shot no doubt. It's just asking for trouble.

[wgeurts]

Popcorn Insanity

[wgeurts]

I already said they should only claim the night before if a doc that can take action that night has also already claimed. So I agree that you shouldn't claim the full role, I did so as mines next night.

If you're a night-1 cop claim

[Mathdino]

Again, what if scum know there are only 4 docs and all of them are on N1 and N2? Docs have no good reason to claim unless they think they just saved someone. Standardisation of doc claims crosses the threshold of giving scum more information than town.

The goal of cop/doc claims is to reduce claimspace, kill scum plans, and determine which group is larger since we know it has scum.

The goal of having cops claim before they investigate is to draw protection and avoid dying.

Explain the goal of having docs claim their night ever.

[Mathdino]

You seem to think scum would be dumb enough to kill the guy that their claimed doc said he/she'd target.

They're not.

Plus what if the cop dies because the doc decided to try to WIFOM the scum and save someone else?

[wgeurts]

I know they wouldn't target my target, hence the cops survival for that night is a guarantee.