STEVEN UNIVERSE MAFIA - GAME OVER

[Cheetory6]

Cool!
Wanna sheep me on the guy who voted you, asked you a question and then didn't respond to you and just kind of floundered and lurked!?

P-Edit:
I could see some older players having a lack of respect for a hydra partner and I could also see an older player knowing that someone might call them out on that and not care because they think they can talk their way out of it, if that makes sense?

[Cheetory6]

But, that's definitely interesting, I hadn't really considered that Beer might be a pair of newer players.
I usually associate secret alt things with older players who don't want the baggage of their mains tugging them down, so I'd been thinking of Beer as a trio of vets.
Speaking of which, @Beer, is your third head just VLA or what? Or have I just not noticed when they've been posting?

[Marquis]

it's not so much a "lack of respect" thing but an "awareness of social cues on ms" thing
eh
i get ur point but amished tell is so fucking reliable in newer playerlists i love it so much

[Cheetory6]

So, you're just kind of hoping he's new? Do you think that some people with more experience might actually still be bad with social cues here? [because I can think of a few ]

Also, I'm gonna be an idiot and show my relative inexperience on this site and ask you what the amished tell is. q.q

[Marquis]

see even u don't know it!
even on its own that's a good sign they're maybe scum!

amished tell is that players being apologists for the player they replaced/criticizing predecessor's play as scummy are more likely to be scum. this is predicated on many things including scum knowledge of own alignment, unnecessary complaining about situation that's scum-motivated, etc as well as a decently long history of it being used successfully

maybe links to examples eventually but take my word for it

[Marquis]

and in theory it can also be applied to hydra partner relationships due to how the player doing it similarly feels unjustly accountable for another's scummy play for the same slot

[Cheetory6]

Beer's got so much mist around him that I feel I'm going to be confused about my read on them for a while. The lack of reference to individual meta, the fact that hydras generally somewhat muddle my reads and the gimmickness of that slot in general is kind of awful.
woo.

[Cheetory6]

I'll try to motivate myself to read through their ISO again sometime soon with the angle of them potentially being new players and see if it sits with me though.

[Ricastle]

Cool!
Wanna sheep me on the guy who voted you, asked you a question and then didn't respond to you and just kind of floundered and lurked!?

Sure.

VOTE: Sonic X

[Cheetory6]

But.
That's not what I meant.

[Ricastle]

Oh, NicCage. Right. I thought the posts he made during his brief appearance were alright personally. I'm happier voting the bigger scumread who more or less did the same thing. Want to sheep me on that?

[vezokpiraka]

Titus, I'd like for you to talk at me about where your head is at on Sonic pls.

Vezok, is the main thing you're scumreading Beer for just his opening in your PT? Or is his play in here also striking you as scummy and can you possibly articulate some of that if so?

I haven't found anything at all that makes me thinks beer is town.

[Bins]

VOTE: NicCage

And no, if anyone's wondering, Sonic has never acted like this w/ me before in a game.

[Reasonably Rational]

Alrighty, here to talk.

vezok: Are you not willing to demonstrate that the characteristics you have expressed about your vote are true?

NicCage: The Sonic v Beer spat doesn't affect my read on either player. I'm inclined to think it's TvT(because I don't see a reason for either player as scum to be putting this much effort into getting *that* particular slot lynched in the absence of more information. In the absence of a flip on either party though I think the entire fight it mostly null in regards to how it affects my thoughts on their slots. I'm not familiar enough with the play of the parties involved to really see if they're being unexpectedly irrational or anything.

raging bull: that fight was stupid and it made me wish I weren't playing this game, but it also makes me concerned for whichever player it was who was clearly depressed. I hope things get better for you, and if you ever need any help, don't hesitate to let me know.

cooldog: Point taken. Can you suggest possible scum motivations for asking for ANY role that is townreading them to target them? If they had asked for certain roles, sure, that's...maybe a little scummy(though I disagree that attempting to control night actions of town players is scummy in and of itself. I view it as more akin to wishing to see optimal play from the town.)...but they didn't. I mean, I'm sure we can all dream up random weird roles that can interact with someone targeting them in interesting ways, or even just resort to the generic PGO, but why would SCUM want specifically those people who *trust* them and are townreading them to target them?

Tunnel: I'm not seeing what you're pointing out about similarities to WDPT, but the early game of that was forever ago, and I'm not gonna reread it. We can discuss whatever it is now, or in the alliance tonight if you'd like.

VOTE: grapes: That is staying there until my question is answered. Or drixx moves it to someone else I suppose. It should be *very* obvious why, in a game with two double voters, one of whom claimed to also be a miller, any wary individual would be very interested in determining how said double voter functions, and whether or not it's in a fashion which would balance a scum double voter for lylo. As of this moment, you are balanced as a scum double voter in lylo. And you claimed miller. So you get voted, until I have good reason to believe you are town, or my question is answered, or you demonstrate that you can indeed double vote the same individual.

farside: why is grapes town? I really like grapes early posts overall, actually, beyond the miller claim, which always makes me suspicious, and I can see town motivation for not wanting to reveal the way their role works, but I can't get over the fact that the role as shown so far is balanced for scum double voting.

And yes, before anybody says anything, I am very willing to sort someone as scum due to role, but barring a cop or doctor in a non multiball game, I will not sort someone as town due to role.

Mod: If a double voter has split votes and votes for two separate slots who are at L-1 in a single post, putting them both at lynch, do they both get lynched?

-Cerb

V: The votes happen in sequence. The first player hammered would be lynched. It's just the same as when any two players are at L-1 and you cast a vote for one and then cast a vote the another in the same post.

[Reasonably Rational]

The sonic/bins thing is weirdly over the top. I'm trying really hard but can't really identify a reason why scum sonic would be doing this though. If they're both scum, and doing this as a weird distancing method, with one buddying and one distancing, I guess that could kinda make sense? Inconclusive. Only certain thing is it's a bit much.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, why are we voting NicCage btw? Because of his empty ISO? There's a lack of posts, but the content there isn't fluff. He expresses opinions and thoughts, asks to be questioned to get himself involved in the game, and asks people about what their thoughts are on things. It's not a lurky iso, it's a low post count iso. I like removing lurkers from games early, because of the lack of information you have on them late game, but he's interacting and giving us information in all of his posts. Not terribly opposed to this lynch, but I think I need better reasons why to consider joining.

I mean, in terms of fluffiness, Marquis is *way* up there, I've rarely seen a less useful collection of drivel. Sure, there's some value in there, but it's mostly a lot of noise mucking up the thread. Not alignment indicative, I think marquis himself expresses it well in #519: reads like town who just doesn't give a damn about being townread. My point though is if we're voting based on useless posting or lack of useful posting, even Marquis is a better choice(and maybe somebody else is EVEN better than Marquis, I haven't ISO'd all the players to see who's fluffy HIPS'ing or active lurking, and who's pure lurking.)

Varsoon: Thank for the immediate response. That makes perfect sense.

-Cerb

[Beer]

Yeah, and I remember from the last game how well you can read me. Like, not at all.

This tone is reading a bit town to me. Skybird doesn't seem like a player to fake the "indignant town" tone very well.

Pawtucket, why did Sonic's read seem strange to you?

Sonic's read seemed strange to me because it seemed far too confident at the time based on what Maxwell put in the thread. This didn't really affect me too much since my own read of Maxwell would also take an even stronger town direction later, but it still made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up a bit.

As for Beer, my thoughts are similar, though I'm not sure waiting for anything more from Gordovan's side is going to yield anything.

I think that counting Gordovan out because they are a troll is a mistake. Yes, it is some effort sifting through the serious and the joking and that effort is occasionally absolutely annoying, but there are plenty of gems to find in his posts.

Mmm,
A beer flip would give us a lot of associatives even if he flips town.

Associatives are interactions between mafiosos that are hints to them being similarly aligned. There are no associatives if you lynch a townie. The information gained from lynching a townie is removing them from a suspect pool and nothing else until power roles come into play. People who lynch town for "information" are playing a fool's game.

That suggests to me a deeper motivation that it would be anti town to comment on.

It suggests to me that he has a role that benefits from being targeted.
The optimal way to play a role like that is by being open about it.

If radmann is always weird in his posting style in general, it makes him seem less scummy for it here, no?

What weird things are you picking up on? If you're talking about the way he words things or what he's specifically choosing to focus on, it's likely you're picking up on personality tells over alignment indicative ones.

Gordovan, or any Beer: What's your opinion on Sonic's fake daykill? Sorry if you commented on it and I missed it.

I don't care. It's a fake daykill.
Should I?

As for the Beer head situation, I only commented on it in past tense because well... the posts were before mine. It very well could still be going on since neither are signing their posts. Thus it's still suspicious activity. If calm head were trying to keep their distance from the more outlandish head why would he not start signing his posts? It's at least a good cover if nothing else.

I've signed all posts that I've put in thread thus far and will continue to sign them into the future. I do this so that it is obvious Gordovan and I are different people. I don't do it to distance from him.

Whoever said that you should probably focus on getting towny people in there, instead of people you're unsure about, was right. I don't remember who.

Unless you're confident in your ability to sort once they're in a smaller group?

This seems like an optimal move by far, considering the whole power boost thing. Alliances and Fusions aren't straight neighborizers.

Raging Bull's drunk rant seems mostly non-alignment indicative minus the BP claim, which I'm inclined to view as town. Ika seemed in a very... honest? Mood at that point in time, I don't think he'd slip in a scum fakeclaim in the middle of it.

The only thing I got out of a Beer ISOdive was that I dislike the way that Pawtucket threw Gordington under the bus for his play early on, but I'm not sure if I just think it's bullshit to treat a hydra partner like that in the open like that or if it feels like a scum gambit to try and ease the suspicion on their slot by being like "oh man look the good head is here to be not scummy now".

I don't think I threw Gordovan under the bus so much as expressed my annoyance with him making a move that pulled plenty of justified votes to us without discussing it beforehand. I don't think I've been treating him in a bullshit way. I think it would have been awkward for me to come in the game and post in the game as a separate person without discussing Gordovan's opening (or am I supposed to lie about my feelings about it because he's a hydra partner?).

- and i'm aware this might not make sense to some but the lack of hydra partner respect/general ego thing makes me think it's a newer player (in the vein of vonflare/elusive/etc. with limited... skills in that social regard), who also likely wasn't aware of the amished tell being a thing, and thus would not be likely to hesitate with those comments as scum

This is mostly just offensive and frustrating, don't really know how to respond to this. Do you really think my posting style is that awkward? Can you not see why I might be a little frustrated with my hydra partner doing what they did at the beginning of the game, especially in a game with an alliance mechanic? Do you really think my position is that ridiculous?

amished tell is that players being apologists for the player they replaced/criticizing predecessor's play as scummy are more likely to be scum. this is predicated on many things including scum knowledge of own alignment, unnecessary complaining about situation that's scum-motivated, etc as well as a decently long history of it being used successfully

The original Amished tell was based on it being scummy to focus on your predecessor's posts before anyone else's while posting since reading predecessor is basically useless for town, but ISOing predecessor can help give you an idea of what kind of position you're replacing into as scum. It then warped dramatically over the years as it became overused and people didn't want to acknowledge that it wasn't perfectly accurate, which it isn't. It's additionally ridiculous you're trying to argue that a hydra is "close enough" to a replacement. I don't expect my predecessors to behave any certain way because I'm replacing them, don't care at all about them. I do expect my hydra partners to behave a certain way because hydra

partners

.

[Beer]

^

Sincerely,
Pawtucket

Apologies for the long absence and forgetting to sign, that just got under my skin more than it should have. I'll try to formulate a reads list soon.

[Beer]

VOTE: Sonic X

I also don't really have too much confidence in my Raging Bull read anymore. I'll support Gordovan for now.

Sincerely,
Pawtucket

[Marquis]

i think my "fluffy" posts are different from other fluffy posts
my posts are in the top percentage of good posts
anything otherwise clearly means you're skimming early iso and judging by post height which is fairly discriminatory

[Marquis]

i guess beer can be scum if they rly want to be then

sure

[Reasonably Rational]

i think my "fluffy" posts are different from other fluffy posts
my posts are in the top percentage of good posts
anything otherwise clearly means you're skimming early iso and judging by post height which is fairly discriminatory

Valid point. I skimmed all of your iso, really, because I hate reading iso's until I absolutely have to. Not sure about the post height discrimination thing, clearly not really valid here.

Anyways, yeah, the posting style with it's lack of actual sentences or punctuation sorta makes me not want to read into your posts to actually find the value in them. That's a bit lazy. I'll work on overcoming that particular quirk of mine so I can give your posts a fair chance. Though you'll note I didn't think we should lynch you or anything, I just thought lynching you for lack of content would be better than lynching NicCage. I don't actually think either of you should be lynched right now though, it was more of an example. Wish you hadn't responded though, it would have been nice if someone else had come in to defend you so I could see why they preferred NIcCage over you.

-Cerb

[vezokpiraka]

@cerb: what the fuck do you want from me? I already toks you that my vote counts as two and I can't split it.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

people have just assumed that Vezo is town bc he is a double voter ... I think that this is a dangerous assumption.
if we just assume he is town bc of his double voting we put our self in a bad position if he turns out to be scum.. my point was that there could possibly be a double scum voter and we need to be careful and not assume anything.
We need to get beter evidence he is town and not assume things.

I might be blinded with the RB isue but thier action so remind me of Prof Maniac that its hard not to see this as a Jekell / Hyde situration. i like to see more posts from them before making a decison

Grapes
I am not pushing anyone bc i have no one to push ..i am stil trying to figure out my reads. i never push unless i am confident i pushing scum.

How is not paying attention scummy??? plus by that logic i am scummy every game since i tend not to pay total attention most of the time every game and in every game. Your push is kinda weak imho.

[Marquis]

i think my "fluffy" posts are different from other fluffy posts
my posts are in the top percentage of good posts
anything otherwise clearly means you're skimming early iso and judging by post height which is fairly discriminatory

Valid point. I skimmed all of your iso, really, because I hate reading iso's until I absolutely have to. Not sure about the post height discrimination thing, clearly not really valid here.

Anyways, yeah, the posting style with it's lack of actual sentences or punctuation sorta makes me not want to read into your posts to actually find the value in them. That's a bit lazy. I'll work on overcoming that particular quirk of mine so I can give your posts a fair chance. Though you'll note I didn't think we should lynch you or anything, I just thought lynching you for lack of content would be better than lynching NicCage. I don't actually think either of you should be lynched right now though, it was more of an example. Wish you hadn't responded though, it would have been nice if someone else had come in to defend you so I could see why they preferred NIcCage over you. :P

-Cerb

i'm really sorry but this super duper nice and apologetic post of yours is giving me scumvibes.

i really wish it wasn't. :(