Closed Setups Are Horrible

[Firebringer]

Good thing there's an open queue for players who don't like closed setups.

When 90% of the games hosted on here are not open, I think this would be something worth discussing.

I want to hear why people think a Closed setup is better, the only things I hear is "It can be broken" I think opens made that way are poorly designed.

There are plenty of poor designed Closed. You just don't realize that until after the game is over and you already invested your time and energy into the game.

I am saying a Closed setup can be fun, but in the end you can feel like you were cheated and lied to about the balance of the game.

Make it a Semi-Open or Open. Let them know what kind of shenanigans you are getting into.

[Firebringer]

I can give you a pretty good idea of what will be in a game based on it's size.

A closed normal of 13p will generally have 3 scum, and 2-4 town power roles. You might not know WHAT the power roles are, or whether or not scum have power roles, but it's not like you walk into a closed game completely blind in general either.

This is another thing with it.

How do you know this?
Because Site Meta!!!

You gained insight that other players not familiar with this site have that gives you a distinct advantage to other players.

You know what to expect in a Closed Setup.
Players off site don't.

Closed Setups give advantage to players who know the moderator/reviewers to predict what the game will look like and in general what this site considers balance.

[zMuffinMan]

I just don't think balance is very easy to get

this is probably correct, but it is correct regardless of a setup being open or closed. i think most people have an

idea

about whether a setup is balanced, but they have no clue whether or not it actually is, and again, this is the same whether the setup is open or closed

you're simply making an argument against setups in general here

One player base game that has op town might be completely balanced because the town players aren't that good.
Another might have weak town but town doesn't need it because the town is in general good.

this is pretty awful. setups aren't balanced by the playerlist. a playerlist being weak or strong doesn't affect the balance of a setup (though it may affect the outcome of an individual game)

but again, this isn't an argument for or against closed setups but mafia games in general

I think the huge disadvantage to playing a Closed game is you have to put faith that the moderator made a truly balanced game. A semi-open/open you can decide straight up "Hey is this balanced?" If you think not, then don't play or go in KNOWING that fact.

i think there's certainly arguments that could be made for better practices in balancing games - i also think at least 99% of the playerbase on mafiascum is unqualified to say whether something is balanced or not. if you think you're an exception, you're probably not. i would say it doesn't matter if a setup is closed or open, you probably don't know whether or not it's balanced

I want to hear why people think a Closed setup is better

whether or not they're better, there are reasons people prefer closed setups. it allows for a different kind of experience insofar as getting creative with claims and thinking about whether claims make sense or not, which provides its own set of challenges to make the game more interesting (at least for some)

You gained insight that other players not familiar with this site have that gives you a distinct advantage to other players.

You know what to expect in a Closed Setup.
Players off site don't.

Closed Setups give advantage to players who know the moderator/reviewers to predict what the game will look like and in general what this site considers balance.

yeah, and...?

i don't think i played anything outside of open setups for a while after joining this site because i'm not dumb enough to jump into the deep end without knowing how to swim

read and learn. use your head. then you'll be less likely to have this issue

i'm not saying you won't still be cheated by the setup. there are definitely a whole bunch of moderators who really shouldn't be creating setups and a whole bunch of people who approve said setups that really are not qualified to review games (and i'm not even solely referring to "balance" here). shit happens. you get some bad games now and then that should just have never happened. but really, who cares? so you play a couple bad setups now and then... big deal

[Zachrulez]

I can give you a pretty good idea of what will be in a game based on it's size.

A closed normal of 13p will generally have 3 scum, and 2-4 town power roles. You might not know WHAT the power roles are, or whether or not scum have power roles, but it's not like you walk into a closed game completely blind in general either.

This is another thing with it.

How do you know this?
Because Site Meta!!!

You gained insight that other players not familiar with this site have that gives you a distinct advantage to other players.

You know what to expect in a Closed Setup.
Players off site don't.

Closed Setups give advantage to players who know the moderator/reviewers to predict what the game will look like and in general what this site considers balance.

Well it's right here in mafia discussion now whether you have experience or not.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Closed Setup is awful because you don't know what you are walking into at all.

You join a game that is called "balance" by others, but what makes them credible at analyzing the balance of a setup? And I am not saying I am better at balancing a setup than anyone else, but I just don't think balance is very easy to get. Theres always something that breaks it, you can only do the best you can.

One player base game that has op town might be completely balanced because the town players aren't that good.
Another might have weak town but town doesn't need it because the town is in general good.

I think the huge disadvantage to playing a Closed game is you have to put faith that the moderator made a truly balanced game. A semi-open/open you can decide straight up "Hey is this balanced?" If you think not, then don't play or go in KNOWING that fact.

Outside of a bastard game, I can give you a pretty good idea of what will be in a game based on it's size.

A closed normal of 13p will generally have 3 scum, and 2-4 town power roles. You might not know WHAT the power roles are, or whether or not scum have power roles, but it's not like you walk into a closed game completely blind in general either.

Might as well make it an open setup then. Perhaps something like Matrix6 but more possible role distributions. It is just more transparent. Like Firebringer said, it actually allows the players to judge the game balance for themselves, or at least know for sure what they can expect. It also makes it easier for newer players to join. They do not need to play several games to figure out that 13p games generally have 3 scum. They can see it for themselves.

The issue that people seem to have with open setups is that they think that roleclaiming in an open setup necessarily means becoming a confirmed townie (or trading 1 scum for 1 townie, assuming that the town does not lie). This is not necessarily the case, if you just make the pool of possible role distributions large enough.

[Majiffy]

Some roles simply do not work in open setups. And some setups the point of it being closed is for the "big reveal" of roles that may work in an open but the whole point is the unknown.

[Firebringer]

you're simply making an argument against setups in general here

What in the hell?
How did you come to this conclusion?

I am saying that one persons opinion of balanced is different from a other, so anyone calling something "Objectively Balanced" is basically asking for trouble.

this is pretty awful. setups aren't balanced by the playerlist. a playerlist being weak or strong doesn't affect the balance of a setup (though it may affect the outcome of an individual game)

but again, this isn't an argument for or against closed setups but mafia games in general

I was more talking about how a setup that could be considered "Town sided" or reverse could end up being a good and fun and seemingly balanced game. Even though some would see it as not being actually balanced.

Its more of combination of events that cause the game to actually turn up fine and not a train wreck.

And yeah this could happen with Open and Semi, but my problem is you don't know what your getting into with Closed where Semi/Open you kind of get a disclosure before just by looking at it.

whether or not they're better, there are reasons people prefer closed setups. it allows for a different kind of experience insofar as getting creative with claims and thinking about whether claims make sense or not, which provides its own set of challenges to make the game more interesting (at least for some)

This is funny because I actually see less creativity with claims on this site than my own site. Like roles on this site are very.....vanilla. You guys have different roles but its far safer to claim a VT than do anything actually creative and bullshit a role claim.

My homesite where its only open/semi you kinda are expected to make a legit sounding role claim. And if its a Semi open its not always just a CC someone elses claim.

Just because you have limited options doesn't mean you can't be creative. Hell I claimed that I was role blocked and bus drived in a game where we had no bus driver or roleblocker on my homesite, I ended up winning that just because of insane play that kept everyone scratching their head.

i don't think i played anything outside of open setups for a while after joining this site because i'm not dumb enough to jump into the deep end without knowing how to swim

I thought newbie games were supposed to prepare me to play on this site as a whole, and get used to meta.
Explain to me why Newbie is Semi-Open when 90% of the site is Closed.

Please, explain it.

If I am expected to read games before I play on here to know how to play on this site, I don't see the point in the newbie queue.

read and learn. use your head. then you'll be less likely to have this issue

I just want some damn transparency going in, and honestly I don't see why not. Considering time invested for players who play the games can be months long.

[zMuffinMan]

I am saying that one persons opinion of balanced is different from a other

there is no such thing as an "opinion on balanced"...

that's like saying "everyone has a different opinion about whether 5+5=10 and no one person's opinion is necessarily right"

i'm going to ignore any response to this that talks about bases - it's not a clever response so don't bother

[Firebringer]

that's like saying "everyone has a different opinion about whether 5+5=10 and no one person's opinion is necessarily right"

Thats not even a remote comparison.

[zMuffinMan]

... you clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about so i'm not going to bother

[Firebringer]

... you clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about so i'm not going to bother

I feel the same way when I am responding to you.

[Firebringer]

Like you sum up my main points then tell me what my argument was. You clearly don't understand my position.

If anything, you don't have a clue.

[AlwaysInnocent]

There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but let's be respectful to each other.

Anyway...

Firebringer:

Closed Setups give advantage to players who know the moderator/reviewers to predict what the game will look like and in general what this site considers balance.

zMuffinMan:

yeah, and...?

That means the outcome of the game relies less on the actual skill of a player and more on their meta-knowledge of mods. I do not see how anyone wants that to influence the game.

I can also see why Firebringer says this is nothing like "5+5=10". Objectively balancing games is

possible

(like zMuffinMan says), but

only with open setups

. Otherwise it is indeed subjective and therefore unreliable. You cannot determine the balance of a closed setup by pretending it is an open setup; whether I know that a cop is in the game or not greatly influences the game, even if the only difference is open/closed. There is no objective way to take meta-knowledge of site mods into account to balance the game.

[Antihero]

Just because you have limited options doesn't mean you can't be creative. Hell I claimed that I was role blocked and bus drived in a game where we had no bus driver or roleblocker on my homesite, I ended up winning that just because of insane play that kept everyone scratching their head.

if this is a regular occurrence, the towns on your homesite are awful.

[Cheetory6]

Just because you have limited options doesn't mean you can't be creative. Hell I claimed that I was role blocked and bus drived in a game where we had no bus driver or roleblocker on my homesite, I ended up winning that just because of insane play that kept everyone scratching their head.

So.
Open setups are better than closed setups, because you can always fakeclaim roles that aren't in the setup even though any competent town will lynch you instantly for it?

[Majiffy]

I almost won an offsite claiming hider as an SK once. That was fun. Then scum killed me

[Chaotic Neutrality]

FB why do you wall in MD and troll in game

[Tere]

Because mafia is hard, guyz....

[Majiffy]

FB why do you wall in MD and troll in game

Mastin alt

[Firebringer]

FB why do you wall in MD and troll in game

Because I play games to have fun.

I join discussions to discuss.

And what Tere said, because Tere obviously walls all the time in games

[Albert B. Rampage]

Here's my problem with certain Open Setups.

When I join a game, I'm not interested in calculating all the possible permutations of role distribution. I don't care about isolating which roles are or aren't possible based on claims.

There are issues with closed setups, yes, I won't deny it. We should probably narrow down what a closed setup is more than it currently is.

[chamber]

Isn't that basically what normals do?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Not interested in referencing a 9x9 matrix chart to divine what roles are present with a mafia RB flip, for example.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Not interested in referencing a 9x9 matrix chart to divine what roles are present with a mafia RB flip, for example.

I think the best kind of semi-open setup is:

• You know what is possible with absolute certainty (no tricks; complete transparency).
  
• Makes it impractical to infer roles.

This does not seem too far off from what you have in mind:

We should probably narrow down what a closed setup is more than it currently is.

[Tere]

You have an easy solution, anyway. Don't like closed setups? Don't join them. That's what matrix6 is for *shrug*