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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:24 am
by talah
And what did I say in the post right after that, 30 seconds later?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:25 am
by talah
Are you actually trolling?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:30 am
by Firebringer
Nope, just mass communication failures all around.
I feel like I live on a different planet as everyone here when I try to convey myself, cause I feel like the only reasonable person in the room sometimes.
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:32 am
by talah
Okay then I suppose I get ya.
One of the first games I joined after my first newb was an open because I wanted that solidity. Far as scumhunting went, the setup itself didn't help.
So that's why I then played a couple of large themes and really liked them. I like you too by the way! (IMNOTSCUM)
<3
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:56 am
by BBmolla
In post 69, Firebringer wrote: In post 62, talah wrote:In a way, closed setups let me be more creative in my thinking and theorising
I don't even think this is true.
Like, remember BBMolla New York game?
People were saying IaI couldn't be scum for role and all setup theorizing had that going into it.
I didn't setup spec at all and when I scum read him and people said "Ohh but he claimed X role how can you see him as scum" I said "Ohh well he is still scum"
We aren't as creative as we think we are lol.
I swear BBMolla created that exact game just to fuck with Site Meta on how setups are designed.
Nobody expected it and thats part of why scum won.
My setup is a bad example of anything because it pretty much goes against what normals stand for methinks.
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:06 pm
by Ranmaru
I think closed setups are fun because they become a guessing game while also being a game about mafia, and we hope that the mod has it balanced. Opens are nice when I don't want to fear the chance of scum fake claiming and I don't want to think that hard about power roles at all. (Because sometimes I may focus on scumhunting over analyzing power role scenarios and then people get on me for reading things wrong when I didn't care about the setup as much)
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:16 pm
by 3dicerolling
In post 20, fferyllt wrote:Good thing there's an open queue for players who don't like closed setups.
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:15 pm
by ika
In post 57, Firebringer wrote: In post 55, ika wrote:He problem your producing fire is that you are a minority voice about this said problem. Like technically speaking all games are already not closed and semi open but the fact that it's has to be disclosed if it's bastard or not.
At work but I'll be more indepth later
Well I think when people come in and see problems with the way things are done it might be help to see their opinions and at least consider them.
I don't see how me being a minority changes that.
Because its not a problem to begin with is the thing. Your basicly opinionating "closed are horrible, lets get rid of it" its not a fact of "closed are terrible" like the only way for a game to be honestly "closed" would for it to not even have th disclosure of bastard elements and jsut have a signup and no thoer info. I mean tars game are prob best examples of that.
Like look at the newbie queue.
What is its purpose?
Right now I see that its to get new players,also hopefully retain them, and indoctrinate the newer players to the playstyle of this site.
Ignoring the second part because I hate that purpose of newbie queue and don't think it should be its goal.
The you should talk to mina about that, the goal of it is to intorcuce site meta and get players ready for what they can expect. its a litsmods job to be in charge of that and if you are (again the minority yelling here) saying its wrong, tell is what it should be and expalin why in great detail why the current ideal is bad
Now if you want to get new players and keep them I think having a consistent game type across games is key to this.
Newbie is a Semi-Open game.
90% of site is Closed.
Shouldn't the Newbie then be Closed? If you want to actually prepare the users for what its like to actually play on your site.
Setup is just as important as playstyles, so I don't see why its so different.
cus your not refuting the key point of "there are open setups and normal setups" like nobody has to play closed or themes or anythign. they can play opens
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:30 pm
by TheButtonmen
In post 3, Kagami wrote:There are fun ways of making open setups that don't have those problems, but they have to made Themes anyway to avoid the restrictions on opens, so may as well just design closed games.
restrictions on open?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:31 pm
by TheButtonmen
I personally like opens because much of my enjoyment of mafia these days is theoretical and restrictions breed creativity.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:05 pm
by kuribo
Open setups make you a worse Mafia player by giving you bad habits and a lack of gameplay imagination.
Opens are the worst and I would rather tear my arm off and stick it in my own ass than have to play them exclusively.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:27 pm
by Firebringer
In post 85, kuribo wrote:Open setups make you a worse Mafia player by giving you bad habits and a lack of gameplay imagination.
Opens are the worst and I would rather tear my arm off and stick it in my own ass than have to play them exclusively.
Closed actually make you less imaginative. And require you have much more experience with the game to do if you want to get "creative", it rewards players who have played more versus newer players.
Where as opens or semi-opens give everyone the same amount of information. An experienced person playing in a closed has a better understanding of what the setup than any newer player would. For all they know it could be anything.
Rewarding experienced players over any player, is inherently unfair.
Thats why Closed are shit.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:32 pm
by Firebringer
Just a recent example, Ythan game. Which was mentioned in first few pages of this game. Was a closed game. Yet it was doing wacky things that isn't common on this site even (nobody was vanilla, but nobody was PR, everything was cancelling out)
One of the players was familiar with another setup run similar to it (Experience), and therefore had a leg up over anyone else and was able to use this information to better deceive the other players (He was scum).
Why should experience give you such a distinct advantage in figuring out the game? And I am not anti experience, I am anti clear advantages for people just being aware of site meta/mod meta.
I want people to enter a game, try to scumhunt and that be the skill involved and maybe where experience shows.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:45 pm
by Ircher
Let's see... The semi-open Greater idea setups suffer this same problem. Your point?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:07 pm
by kuribo
In post 86, Firebringer wrote: In post 85, kuribo wrote:Open setups make you a worse Mafia player by giving you bad habits and a lack of gameplay imagination.
Opens are the worst and I would rather tear my arm off and stick it in my own ass than have to play them exclusively.
Closed actually make you less imaginative. And require you have much more experience with the game to do if you want to get "creative", it rewards players who have played more versus newer players.
Where as opens or semi-opens give everyone the same amount of information. An experienced person playing in a closed has a better understanding of what the setup than any newer player would. For all they know it could be anything.
Rewarding experienced players over any player, is inherently unfair.
Thats why Closed are shit.
Open makes you less imaginative. You're given a rigid list of what you can and cannot claim. If you're lying, you will be counterclaimed. In a closed setup, as long as you know a little something about balance, nearly anything is a plausible claim.
No one is saying it doesn't favor more experienced players. Some of us prefer that. People who have gotten better at playing will naturally play with people who are better.
There are players that don't like to be given the setup before hand. Some people enjoy that aspect. If you don't, no ones making you sign up for them.
Mafia is a game that inherently rewards experience. It's why we have a newbie queue. Claiming that ones experience shouldn't lend them an edge... Literally removed the entire point of a game. No fucking shit people who have played longer will be better. The same goes for anything. The same goes for football, baseball, counter strike, dota, business, and life.
Open games are fucking easy mode bullshit and Normals aren't much better.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:10 pm
by kuribo
Like
Everything in fucking life gives you an advantage over the less experienced.
If you want to live your life playing with less experienced players, stay in the Newbie queue forever. If, however, you'd rather gain actual experience instead of deriding those that have learned, try joining a Large Theme. Because here's a news flash: experienced players don't always smoke newbies. Hell, newbies can be harder to read sometimes.
But if you just stay in your safe little Closed bubble, you never learn shit and won't ever be shit.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:07 pm
by Firebringer
In post 89, kuribo wrote:Open makes you less imaginative. You're given a rigid list of what you can and cannot claim. If you're lying, you will be counterclaimed. In a closed setup, as long as you know a little something about balance, nearly anything is a plausible claim.
No one is saying it doesn't favor more experienced players. Some of us prefer that. People who have gotten better at playing will naturally play with people who are better.
There are players that don't like to be given the setup before hand. Some people enjoy that aspect. If you don't, no ones making you sign up for them.
Mafia is a game that inherently rewards experience. It's why we have a newbie queue. Claiming that ones experience shouldn't lend them an edge... Literally removed the entire point of a game. No fucking shit people who have played longer will be better. The same goes for anything. The same goes for football, baseball, counter strike, dota, business, and life.
Open games are fucking easy mode bullshit and Normals aren't much better.
No, it makes you wiser. Instead of bullshiting and making stuff up and hoping someone who understands the hosts mind better doesn't call you out on a claim, it makes it so those who understand site meta can better lie than those who don't. And balance changes with site meta. One site sense of balance is slightly different than another. Host have also different sense of balance either. Like their is no straightforward balanced game.
If a game is specifically made and gives an unfair advantage to someone before the game starts, I call foul. And I am not saying you shouldn't get better and play more games, I am saying if I told you "Hey lets play a game, but I can't tell you all the details the game, and you won't understand whats going on until you play a few dozen parts" you probably would say "No, I don't want to play a game I have no idea how it works". The game should reward you for being good at SCUMHUNTING. Thats a basic part of the game, not for knowing what the game IS.
Last point, my point is that figuring out the setup isn't intrinsically a skill. I mean, its useful and helpful so in that sense its a skill. But it is only a skill in the sense that you aren't getting better at the basics of the game to learn. Its something that only a lack of information over time progresses into a understanding of what is predictable or not predictable. If you lost a dozen times to the four move checkmate for instance, you would eventually learn what to look out for and try to prevent it. Is that an improvement? Sure, but it doesn't show any real improvement in long term you just figured out how to prevent losing in one way. Now think if you play on multiple sites with different meta, you would become a newbie all over. Trying to overcome some other method that you will not be able to break, even though you are a "Veteran".
Like, even in closed you can hide what the win conditions of the teams are. What in the hell? How about some troll hosts who make a game of all VTs, and don't call the game (I heard this has happened, not on this site tho).
Like, I don't care if a setup is balanced, I don't care if its "bastard", I just want to know what could exist in the game. I want transparency. I want to see the potential, I don't want to wander aimlessly in the dark. I shouldn't have to be expected to understand the meta on setup specs on Closed. Its one of the reasons I refuse to setup spec, I will scumhunt and ignore most of everything else.
Closed Setups are shit because their is no transparency and the host could literally, if they wanted. Do whatever they want in the game. Who is going to stop them? Site mods? They don't see the game. Co mods? That is if they have one. The reviewed game that other people have done could be another game entirely. Does this happen? I don't know, haven't seen it, but the lack of transparency annoys me and it has potential to happen.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:10 pm
by Firebringer
In post 90, kuribo wrote:Like
Everything in fucking life gives you an advantage over the less experienced.
If you want to live your life playing with less experienced players, stay in the Newbie queue forever. If, however, you'd rather gain actual experience instead of deriding those that have learned, try joining a Large Theme. Because here's a news flash: experienced players don't always smoke newbies. Hell, newbies can be harder to read sometimes.
But if you just stay in your safe little Closed bubble, you never learn shit and won't ever be shit.
I hate the newbie queue and you don't seem to understand its purpose, its supposed to convert newer players to site meta.
Also, Information Asymetry is how Closed Setups work, same reason Insider Traders have an advantage over those not in the know. Thats how Closed works. Those close to the mod, or been around long enough know exactly whats going on and what is likely in the game. Sure, they might not know everything, but they have good idea on it.
Information Asymetry doesn't equal any real skill. Its just you have information on the game, before it even began.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:20 pm
by kuribo
In post 91, Firebringer wrote:No, it makes you wiser. Instead of bullshiting and making stuff up and hoping someone who understands the hosts mind better doesn't call you out on a claim, it makes it so those who understand site meta can better lie than those who don't. And balance changes with site meta. One site sense of balance is slightly different than another. Host have also different sense of balance either. Like their is no straightforward balanced game.
If you think that's how a good fakeclaim is made, it's no damn wonder you don't know what you're talking about.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:22 pm
by kuribo
In post 91, Firebringer wrote:Closed Setups are shit because their is no transparency and the host could literally, if they wanted. Do whatever they want in the game. Who is going to stop them? Site mods? They don't see the game. Co mods? That is if they have one. The reviewed game that other people have done could be another game entirely. Does this happen? I don't know, haven't seen it, but the lack of transparency annoys me and it has potential to happen.
They literally can't. A mod that runs some stupid troll bullshit will mod exactly one game before word gets around. People have had their moderator experience actioned against because of things like lying to listmods. You're arguing against something that maybe MAYBE if ever would happen exactly once.
What's to stop you from PMing other people and telling them you're town in a game? Nothing. Except the code of honor and the rules. The same thing applies to what you said.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:23 pm
by kuribo
In post 91, Firebringer wrote:If a game is specifically made and gives an unfair advantage to someone before the game starts, I call foul. And I am not saying you shouldn't get better and play more games, I am saying if I told you "Hey lets play a game, but I can't tell you all the details the game, and you won't understand whats going on until you play a few dozen parts" you probably would say "No, I don't want to play a game I have no idea how it works". The game should reward you for being good at SCUMHUNTING. Thats a basic part of the game, not for knowing what the game IS.
Again, that is literally not something that happens, ever. If you don't like the looks of a game mechanic that's being used... don't sign up.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:25 pm
by kuribo
Closed setups focus MORE on scumhunting because outguessing the mod is so incredibly pointless that setup spec is an exercise in futility. You don't get a handy little roadmap of "this is what's in the game so if two guys claim cop, one is lying" or "oh shit, that guy must be cop because the setup says there's a cop and no one CC'd him." All you have is your scum hunting.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:42 pm
by zMuffinMan
In post 87, Firebringer wrote:Why should experience give you such a distinct advantage in figuring out the game?
yeah... mafia should be like other games/sports, where a newbie can easily match an experienced player without learning anything about the game they're playing
i especially hate it when i have access to the information other players have and i choose not to do anything about it so other players have an advantage over me. that just makes mafia a shit game, imo
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:54 pm
by Firebringer
In post 97, zMuffinMan wrote: In post 87, Firebringer wrote:Why should experience give you such a distinct advantage in figuring out the game?
yeah... mafia should be like other games/sports, where a newbie can easily match an experienced player without learning anything about the game they're playing
i especially hate it when i have access to the information other players have and i choose not to do anything about it so other players have an advantage over me. that just makes mafia a shit game, imo
I like the sarcasm.
Mafia is in no way a sport, part of the reason I like it is the learning curve theoretically is low. All you have to do is have basic understanding of human mind works. Then work in how a person would act in different scenarios.
The second part makes no sense btw.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:56 pm
by zMuffinMan
all sports are games. mafia is a game. the learning curve is low, even if you have an advantage by knowing more things than someone else
protip: you can also read, which (perhaps magically) makes you know what others know!